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Author Topic: More Contradictions in Religion...  (Read 26756 times)
kai wren
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« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2006, 20:38:14 »

For my part... I enjoy Beth's posts. I'm actually quite interested in how Mustardseed would rather have things defined... it seems there is some kind of stigma attached to trying to pin things down with words, personally, I don't believe there is anything in this universe which is beyond words, words are how we communicate ideas, ideas are how we perceive this universe. Therefore words should be able to describe pretty much anything. If it doesn't, then more words need to be made.

The point Beth made was that your ideas seem to fit into the "box category" of Pantheism, how is this a negative thing? Please, explain how your views are different from this category, that doesn't make your views any less valid, being defined does not serve as a limitation, because those definitions can be altered.
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Mustardseed
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« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2006, 05:09:28 »

Dear Beth

So sorry that you take it that way it was not intended. I will be quiet.  I think that what you have to give is way more important than then points I brought out, just thought I could help. My apologies.

Regards Mustardseed
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« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2006, 05:09:28 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Beth
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« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2006, 05:30:58 »

Mustardseed,

Now you are showing definate signs of passive-aggressive disorder:

Definition:
Passive-aggressive personality disorder is a chronic condition in which a person seems to passively comply with the desires and needs of others, but actually passively resists them, becoming increasingly hostile and angry.

Cut it out Mustard...

~Beth

It's time to MOVE ON...Let's get back to the topic of Contradictions in Religions...

~b
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gdo
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« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2006, 15:28:49 »

I do hope that there that good people who post here will keep an open mind and also take some things stated with a grain of salt.  I do enjoy most of the posting although I do not always agree with what has been stated.  I do hope that mustardseed was not intending to impugn Beth but
trying to add a perspective of his/her own.

Beth is very knowledgeable.


Beth, yes we might be stating the same thing.  If I have misunderstood what you have posted before, then I apologize for misconstruing.

In my earlier post I mentioned the Shema and I was meaning the first statement as an example not the whole of the text.   Hear oh Israel the Lord is One.   That seeming simple statement has had allot of meanings put to it, and I have seen much debate over it.  LOL.

From what I understand of the Pantheistic movement, it leaves somethings out.  

Here is another link to some definitions of the concept.
http://www.harrison.dircon.co.uk/definits.htm

Perhaps I am missing perhaps not.  

Perhaps if the definition was more specific in what it referred to as THE UN IVERSE,  and that as such it is a LIVING SOMETHING that creates withing itself.

Pantheism as discussed in that link and others is a relatively new and western concept.  

We, each of us, live within our own limitations of time and culture and personal abilities.  If you share some knowledge that someone else does not have or is not able to understand that 'someone else' will either be uncomfortable or ignore the the message or defend a pre-existing idea and dismiss yours, even thought you are correct.  

An uneducated but devout person may reach a point of inspiration and understanding that an educated person may not have reached by reason alone.  Each may end up disagreeing or dismissing each other out of hand.

I  think that this happens quite often.  

I have seen and read of people stating that the first statement of Shema means not to have other gods or idols.  Which is somewhat of a fundamentalist attitude toward the statement.  I think that is fine if that is what your BEST effort can bring you.  If some one else ponders the same words and come up with the meaning that I mentioned earlier that is fine also.  (To me a better situation to be sure)  


One of the definitions of Pantheism also included reference to the old idea of a pantheon of many gods.  

CU later as time allows
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Mustardseed
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« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2006, 15:58:38 »

Well ........that is very interesting maybe I do have a bit of that whatever it was. (after all I have been married for 30 years)  So let me get back to being openly hostile then.  tongue

Let me restate my point and explain how I see it being on subject. It is my opinion that very "rigid" folks (such as yourself) often find contradictions where there are none. Even getting to a point where they get aggressive and hostile and extremely sensitive if others challenge their beliefs. (as in fundamentalist )

They define things very rigidly and subsequently, if they do not understand something, they often throw it on the "contradiction" pile and as a result end up quite negative and doubtful about many things. Since they consider their very dogmatic views the absolute TRUTH, against which they measure everything they also get involved in many mind battles and arguments, instead of debates and sharing observations.

Like I said, often this is very intelligent people such as yourself Beth and they often resort to very unkind cutting remarks to put down folks they consider misinformed or ignorant or misguided.

This attitude is shared by not only religious people but also academics, and only tend to further cloud up the real issues...... The actual contradictions, or what appears to be contradictions. I guess it is a common ailment of man........pride.

So all though my post is not on contradiction in religion as per se, I find it is still on subject. I find it very interesting and yet disheartening that you get so off keel by my post, that you start to question my mental health.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say. Incidentally I seem to find this attitude very strong in the USA, it permeates society to a much larger degree than in other parts of the world. It seems that the by product or the other side of the coin, of the American aggressive and innovative spirit is a very hostile attitude to people they consider in opposition to. themselves.

It is my opinion that you define things too rigidly and judge too fast, and often miss out on the points others are trying to make. Like Ann Oakley was that her name.........she was pretty trigger happy and could match any man or woman, yet could never see the real issues in life. I loved that old movie, saw it as a kid.

Ahh what will the future bring, what insults cutting remarks and slights you will be sending my way shocked

As I said I do appreciate your input I have learned a lot from you but you do come across a bit dogmatic and at times quite high on the hog.

Regards Mustardseed

PS as I said in my PM it would be fun to meat you maybe at a venue somewhere. Don't go freaking out about that now cool
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« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2006, 15:58:38 »



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Beth
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« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2006, 17:05:00 »

Quote from: gdo
An uneducated but devout person may reach a point of inspiration and understanding that an educated person may not have reached by reason alone.  Each may end up disagreeing or dismissing each other out of hand.

I  think that this happens quite often.


This is so very true gdo. I was one of these uneducated but devout persons for many years. I had an inspired understanding from childhood of what the NT message was--but it didn't agree with the other followers of my faith.

I did not go to college until late in life: I was a 35 year old college freshman. I had struggled with the religion of my upbringing all of my life. I made the decision and the committment to study the bible, to learn the languages of the bible, so I could ascertain for myself whether or not "my inspired understanding" was indeed true or not.

I am now 47 years old and I have, since my initial entrance into college, learned more than I could have possibly imagined back then.

In essense, my inspiration came first and my application of academic knowledge followed much later.

I know that going to college is not something that everyone can do--and even those that do go to college cannot justify majoring in religion alone. Usually college is for preparing one for a "practical profession"!!! I had to, however, use the opportunity to address something that had bothered me since I was a little girl.

I did use the opportunity to do so and now I attempt to share with others here--and elsewhere--all the many things that I have learned.

I feel that this is the best that I can do.

~Beth
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Beth
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« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2006, 17:16:05 »

Quote from: Mustardseed
Ahh what will the future bring, what insults cutting remarks and slights you will be sending my way shocked


I said: "Cut it out Mustardseed."  We have been doing this same dance for years now.

You know that I only send you cutting remarks after you have attacked my person first.

You attack my academic knowledge when I post something that you disagree with or do not understand, and then I counter-attack your bull-headedness and intellectual laziness. (You have only recently added this whole passive-aggressive thing to your biography.)

We have a long history of such nonsense, of which we are both guilty and which I tire of it much quicker these days.

Again...Let's get back to the topic at hand...Contradictions in Religions...

~Beth
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Ryuji
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« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2006, 18:52:11 »

beth + mustertardseed. in all honesty it might be good for you both
to take a deep breather, step back and carefully read

the manner of your posts
what you have post
and the way it reads towards others

regardless who is right or wrong.

one of greatest victory is when one is conquered oneself and for example doesn't needlessly fall into quick to this and that when something was done/happen that would normally be different to your point of view or believe system.

at one stage we all were noobs, ignorant and or narrow minded. feeling towards that in anger/rage/discontent etc etc unfortunately wont change it - live with it !

it is however good to have a informative discussion about things, its always good practice to question everything and anything. without reasoning - the need to know more we might just as well lie in a corner and die.

when i first started the topic before this one on contradictions in religions i
wanted to have 'power' or 'ammo' to get those who were still locked into their believe which i deemed false because there was some contradictions. mainly also because of this forced-into-christianity which one should never do onto another - force anyone into any religion or believe.

But don't feel the need now to know all 100000000 contradictions about christianity or islam or whatever is out there. One may feel the need to removed those 'stupid' people out of this or that religion but it is not your decision its there choice and they must walk there own path on their own time by them and not you.

good example of force full religion conquering is: 'taking the gospel to the bushmen' mandate by one religious group in my town. what for do they need the 'gospel' according to that group ?

they live and respect the land and each other. What more must they do ?
(think it was caveman and jesus talkin, very similar saw it somewhere on the board)

and even if there is contradictions HECK the stuff is ooooolllllddddddd and may contain some. I would be surprised if there weren't any at all. There is little point in proving/disproving religion/god - nothing really gained out of it at all.

god ??
.a human word
.human's understanding of something he couldn't grasp totally

religion ??
.a human word
.a human's interpritation of some divinity
.a human created order/cult/sect

jesus, muhammid, budda, god... etc
.a human word for a god/deity


and if i am wrong somewhere or in all maters Excellent then i can learn Smiley

Kind blessings,
Ryuji
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Beth
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« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2006, 20:30:42 »

Ryuji, et al,

Please accept my apology for the nonsense between me and Mustardseed.  We have being doing this off and on for several years. I know I should just ignore him, but sometimes I take the bait he dangles...

As always, I take full responsibility for my posts, and with that comes the full knowledge that the "absurd dance with Mustardseed" doesn't look very good on me and most importantly, is not fair to other members...!!  Again, my sincere apologies...

~Beth
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Beth
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« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2006, 20:32:18 »

Since this thread is up to 6 pages, it is a good time to lock it down for future reference and start another one for new or renewed discussions.

~Beth
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Gandalf
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« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2006, 19:58:46 »

Hello folks, nice to be back. Hello Mustardseed and Beth!

Somebody said 'Pantheism as discussed in that link and others is a relatively new and western concept.'

I'm not convinced by this line. The thing is, the label 'pantheism' has several interpretations or flavours, but I would not say that in its various forms it is a 'modern concept'.
As Beth says, the Greek 'Logos' is a version of this concept.

The Stoics definitely believed in a 'pantheistic' vision of the universe. In neoplatonism and various classical pagan philosophies, the gods are better imagined as avatars or personifications of this cosmic totality which we can use to identify and communicate with the All, as to try to comprehend the All in its totality is impossible.

The Neoplatonists had a chain of being that went all the way down from the totality to the various individual gods. The simple peasants 'pagani' may not be aware of all this high philosophy of course, but high minded individuals like Emperor Julian, everyone's favourite pagan hero, got the idea.

A very pantheistic concept can also be found in Indian philosophy/religion. There are various branches of Hindu belief of course so we can't make sweeping statements, but one major strand views all the gods as avatars or means by which we can approach the unknowable divine All.
However, other branches of Hinduism state that we can indeed approach the divine all or 'Brahman' itself. In this later strain, 'Brahman' is personified to allow this to happen (as 'Brahma'), although this Hindu branch also continues to worship other gods as lessor aspects of Brahma.

The first strain of Hinduism is pretty much the stance of modern neo-paganism: where the divine All is unknowable (Brahman) and all personifications of this force via the various gods are equally valid means (indeed essential means) to communicate with it and for it to communicate with us.
The Christians were deeply influenced by Neoplatonic belief here as the figure of Jesus Christ can simply be viewed as another personified 'aspect' or way to approach the unknowable god, but pagans would say, why stop at him? There are lots of gods to choose from.

Within pantheistic thought there is a debate about whether the divine All is conscious of itself or whether it has no awareness as we understand it.
For those who say it is aware and intelligent, and  is therefore able to inspect its various parts objectively while still being part of them, this theory is sometimes refereed to as panENtheism, ie the total is more than the sum of its parts, but i would still class this as a variant of pantheism really.  The stoics certainly believed the Universe was aware, not that we could comprehend this consciousness of course.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 20:13:58 by Gandalf » Logged

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