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Author Topic: More Contradictions in Religion...  (Read 26443 times)
gdo
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« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2006, 03:11:34 »

Thank You Beth!  

Most of the time we look at things from a personal and convenient perspective that is also comfortable for ourselves.  We all do it.  It is rare and difficult some times to step outside of ourselves (whoever and where ever) and try a different kind of sight.  

What some people do not think of is that if there is truly a god that created the universe, then there is not such a thing as supernatural only the supra natural.  There is,that which we have not discovered or created a science or a language for.  Most language can only represent common experiences and events and ideas.  The more uncommon and event or idea or experience the fewer the words to represent it.  This is why that some people have a hard time describing their personal experiences regarding the religious and spiritual nature.  

When you know that 'god' is one, it may be hard to put it into common enough language for others to easily grasp.  Each persons experience will be different enough, but it will also be the same.  (not there is a contradiction for you)  LOL.. shocked
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Beth
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« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2006, 03:34:28 »

Quote from: gdo
When you know that 'god' is one, it may be hard to put it into common enough language for others to easily grasp.  Each persons experience will be different enough, but it will also be the same.  (now there is a contradiction for you)  LOL.. shocked


Well...there you go again gdo!!!  As soon as I think you are talking straight, you curve things up again!  :doh:   wink

Outside of my scholarly expositions, I have personally pondered the "God is One" thing for quite a long time, and I have come to the conclusion that even this, as a description, puts limits on God.

In doing so, humans just create more room for disagreement:

One What?
One Who?
Which gender?
One Religion.
One Holy Book.
One Way.
This One not that One.
One -- or Nothing.

I don't know the answer to the mysterious identity of God gdo, but something tells me that we are all wrong...

~Beth
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« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2006, 03:34:28 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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ubiquitous
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« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2006, 14:12:55 »

To try to establish that there is a entity who is responsible for our existence and all that surrounds us is so far just a comfort notion, its o.k god will get 'em...not it won't! and why do i sometimes feel like saying no HE won't?
The macro world looks great but the subatomic world holds the answers of defining and locating the age old questions of consciousness, and we may well find that IT occupies all that IS and IS therefore as ONE.

YOU ARE GOD
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Beth
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« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2006, 15:19:14 »

ubi,

Until recent centuries, humans have wanted, and perhaps even needed, to place gender identification to powers that exceed our own.

And, it has then been a natural move to choose such a gender that each individual person can identify most with as being able to have such power.

It is not that women automatically choose a female gender and men a male gender, but rather, it obviously can apply both ways. But "men" and "women" are the only labels that we can consistently conceive of as having such power. That is why it is said that 'Humans create the gods in their own image'. Because, to date, that is exactly what we have done.

While investigations into the sub-atomic realm of consciousness is definately the best, and most current idea that is being studied and considered these days, I suspect that our delving into such will only prove to be one of the powers at hand in the universe, and not necessarily the greatest power of all. The universe is a very large place, no?

I think we are a long way from discovering the actual greatest power in the universe.  Mainly because we are, as a species, so far down the intelligence and awareness scale, we will naturally want to identify all new discoveries that we make in such a context as GOD.

In other words, there may be sub-sub-atomic levels of consciousness, or even sub-sub-sub levels, that we have yet to discover. We, as humans, must walk before we can run. Extending this metaphor, right now some of us are just now learning how to crawl.

With the sheer number of people on this planet (still lying in the cradle) totally stuck in gender identification deities, with many totally dependent upon ancient beliefs, it will be many years before this planet is transformed enough to be able to fully grasp and implement the next level, let alone any other levels that may supercede all the wonderful things that we are discovering about the sub-atomic realm of consciousness.

I think our discoveries into consciousness is telling us much more about ourselves, and our true identity, but not necessarily about what could be labeled as GOD. But once again, it is probably a natural human tendency for us to think such a thing.

Just my thoughts on this...

~Beth
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ubiquitous
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« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2006, 19:22:08 »

Yes one of the powers maybe, but its this "power" that has written all that is on this planet and tells of and then asks the question of an almighty creator.

We write with it and think with it and see it's power sprouting in all knowledge and science..this technology before you for example.. but we cannot locate it and it's not only located in humans it's located everywhere, just cause you can't hear a particle does'nt mean it does'nt think especially considering no one can locate your internal thoughts all though can see remnants in your external post's.

I suppose this type of post may belong in another domain (maybe you could advise) but am curious to read how people extrapolate there feelings into words and always find the word god as limiting, personally.
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« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2006, 19:22:08 »



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Ryuji
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« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2006, 20:31:39 »

ubiquitous
Quote
To try to establish that there is a entity who is responsible for our existence and all that surrounds us is so far just a comfort notion

brings me to one Q I've been having a while (off topic warning Tongue)

if we were created and for what reason to worship - does deities/gods need that. For me i believe they can have respect and acknowledgment if you deem it so, part of you current way of life you have respect to some form of deity/god.

where how and why did the whole reincarnate thing start - God made souls and they go about experience life for God because God cant experience it for Himself - thus we go through few lives and then become one again with the super conscious/god etc etc.

I take a shot in dark that once we all were very able to do everything regarded now as magic, psychic and so on naturally but then became veiled and have to 'wake up' to see the big picture again not be enslaved into a way of life according to a book or peoples opinions

End of the world == end of era of the veil (as described in the christian bible)

Religion is just one of many interpretations of God according to someones understanding and should be treated as such, Luckily people around the world are starting to see through the muddy waters...

Blessings,
Ruy
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El-Bortukali
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« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2006, 20:46:33 »

Why can't he experience it for himself?
So,I'm the one who has all the hard work while god sits on his arse gaining experience trough me?

Slaverism i tell you!ol
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ubiquitous
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« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2006, 01:31:29 »

yeah, the ancient old slave drivers probably slouched in it's R&D lab tweaking around with DNA data making a new refined model to perv over!.
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Mustardseed
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« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2006, 22:51:13 »

Contradictions in religions..............hmmmm lets see. Do I have anything to say about that.Yea I guess I do. I find it quite amusing that a religion is seen as "faulty" and subsequently dismissed as false because it contains contradictions. I find many contradictions in life but not all of them means that life is false.

People are enigmas as well yet not false but often ignorant of the wider implications of different issues. Like a famous ogre said "ogres are like onions" maybe its all about layers. Maybe instead of trying to dismiss religion and religious people with sarcasm and put downs or equally patronizing, intellectual correct and well formulated arguments, (see we all do it )  cheesy we should try to just reason together. Just talk together and see what happens.

Arguments and force full dismissals of fellow travelers views seem to be futile. Now THAT is a contradiction. People who want to enlighten others think they can do it by "darkening" their path with unkind cuts and remarks. All an argument proves is that there are 2 people present. Often it would be help full to define that the debate is about as well. Does a contradiction in a religious book prove anything about the nature of God. It seems equally absurd to prove or disprove God from the pages of a book.

Maybe that is not what irks people.....maybe some just gets upset that people are ignorant and stupid or CHRISTIAN ( admit it it really P***** you of dosn't.t it). Well live with it, and deal with it. Africans that beat drums to dispel the power of spirits are held in scorn by Americans who blow their horns to break up traffic jams. Ha or Christians that are warned of the falseness of their religion by republicans (or Democrats) who have full faith in the just cause of some crazy war somewhere, or maybe by smart intellectuals who have a hard time sleeping at night for fear of death!!!!!

Contradictions come in many forms and runs deep in humanity, so does self righteousness a judgemental attitude.

Come on all together now......all you need is LOVE da da da da da all you need is LOVE.......

Love to you all Mustardseed
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Beth
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« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2006, 03:13:12 »

Quote
Africans that beat drums to dispel the power of spirits are held in scorn by Americans who blow their horns to break up traffic jams.


 :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:  :rotfl:

I swear Mustardseed, that was SO FUNNY it brought tears of laughter to my eyes!!  

Thanks love!:flowers: I really needed a good heart-chuckle tonight!!  

This whole Religion Biz can be so serious sometimes...

Yours truly,
~Beth grin

p.s. Sadly enough though, the comment you made above is only too true...and people are too blind to see that there is no difference...
cry
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Ryuji
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« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2006, 20:07:49 »

sigh... no input for my Q's then hehe Smiley

i have to agree with Must.
Quote
It seems equally absurd to prove or disprove God from the pages of a book


but it is sad if a person soly depends on a book or another's opinion to live his or her life, maybe that person not ready yet and can only life this life this way but its you are allowed to take the good values from religious books and live by them becoming a better you and not some religious figure copy, I'm sure we not here to be robots making robots or be a copy of something or someone !

it is certainly better to go into a religion by choice than to be force into it.
be there contradictions or not - hec that's some old stuff ill be surprised if there is not errors in them, but one should not get lost in this whole contradictions things. It is however still a interesting part of religious study for me.

Quote
Africans that beat drums
Hey that's fun, great to beat your troubled mind away on a jembe drum with some 'african beat' Tongue

Quote
Just talk together and see what happens
unfortunately not always possible especially the-only-god-religions you'll definitely get smitten for just being different especially if your way of live resembles there 'evil' in there religion.

sigh. a true freedom of religion would be nice tho Smiley

Blessings,
Ryu
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kai wren
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« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2006, 22:22:27 »

Contradictions in religion, an interesting subject to be sure. But... do I have anything useful to add, hmm... I suppose I do.



    "Nothing is true; everything is permitted."

    - Hassan I Sabbah


I'll explain more on request.
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zyzyx
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« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2006, 23:01:11 »

Or, just to add a dash of confusion: "Everything is true.  Even false things." - Mal-2   cool

-Z
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gdo
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« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2006, 02:38:10 »

Hello Beth.

One with out definition.  Not one who or one gender or one any one thing but ONE as in more that anyone human can imagine.  You might also use the term NOTHING as in NO-THING or not any definable something, at least the way most people think.  

Some one once discussed the idea that god was outside the universe and just observing what happened.   I asked 'how can this be?'  How can a creator be outside of its creation.  

How many people have lived on this earth?  God encompasses all of them and all who will live on this earth and more.  

From reading your posts, I can see that you are an educated and a thoughtful person.   Congratulations.  

God is not a 'something' that any one person can put a name on.  The concept of the 'holy unspeakable name of God' has a purpose.  To name something is to assume knowledge of it.  How can one person know ALL THAT IS OR EVER WILL BE and presume to make that a personage and give it a gender?  People try to humanize god to make the idea approachable.  

When you were a baby you ate baby food.  When you were older you ate other food and started to read and write.  But you no longer eat baby food and talk like a toddler.  You learned and built on that.  We also have to learn not to rely on the 'primer' lessons on god that come from religions that started when much of humanity was illiterate.

Milk for babies, meat for strong adults.  And so it goes with all things including our ideas about god.

Not to imply that you have a toddlers concept about god but a general statement about religions and how we look at things.
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Beth
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« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2006, 04:44:58 »

Quote from: gdo
One with out definition...

Do you not see how "One with out definition" IS a definition?

Quote
You might also use the term NOTHING...

Do you see where this clearly means "non-existence," and therefore doesn't work at all, except for atheists?

Quote
as in NO-THING or not any definable something, at least the way most people think...

And even with your qualification, "no thing" tells us "nothing." It is a grasp to put into language "something" that is actually beyond our full comprehension.

Quote
Some one once discussed the idea that god was outside the universe and just observing what happened. I asked 'how can this be?' How can a creator be outside of its creation.

You were right to question this idea, but not for the reason that you did.

It would be quite easy -- and expected even -- for a creator to be "outside of its creation."  In fact, the idea that God is "inside of its creation" doesn't work at all, because as the creator and maintainer of everything, being inside of anything means that God has "outside boundaries" and therefore has "limitations."  

God cannot be "omni/all" and have limitations.

The reason that this idea must be questioned, is that for "anything to be outside of the universe" -- which is by definition "everything that exists" -- is quite impossible; especially its creator (for the reasons just explained, and to argue otherwise is to become dizzy from running around in linguistic circles.)

The idea that "the name of God is so Holy that it is ineffable" is not because God is Holy, but because "to name God" is impossible. This is what makes God "Holy."  This cryptic way of referring to God is not a mystical thing at all really, it just simply means that there are no words to adequately accomplish the task.

Now, all of these things are not errors in our thinking so much as illustrations of the limits of our language. To ponder God is an excellent thing to do, but for God to be what we all instinctively believe God to be, no limits can be placed upon the concept. Language by nature defines. Definitions are limitations, e.g., not that, but this.

Humans have pondered God for millennia, and "Omni/All" may be the best that we can ever do, and even then, to fully expound upon such a theology we inevitably run into serious problems somewhere along the way.  

As long as we are dependent upon language to conceive of "God," we are just shadowboxing within the limits of our language -- which will, unfortunately, always be the case when it comes to "God."

As Wiggenstein said, "What we cannot speak of we must pass over in silence." This is not a mystical motto concerning God; this is a self-explanatory statement regarding language itself.

While we cannot ever adequately "talk about God," the important thing is to never stop "pondering God"!!! And the most successful at this will do so in silence. grin

~Beth
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kai wren
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« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2006, 07:29:44 »

Quote
Or, just to add a dash of confusion: "Everything is true. Even false things." - Mal-2


That was one of the quotes that confused me more, but confusion when discussing God can only bring us closer to her, right?  wink
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zyzyx
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« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2006, 16:46:38 »

Quite true.  Before knowledge there is always confusion, I suppose.

-Z
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Mustardseed
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« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2006, 02:04:41 »

Hi Beth
thanks for the emoticons . Very interesting post I will have to read it again as it is quite the argument. I loved the last quote and agree

Regards Mustardseed
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gdo
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« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2006, 03:06:46 »

Hello again Beth.

The ALL THAT IS, AND HAS EVER BEEN, AND WILL EVER BE, exists within itself, not outside itself.  

That is not limiting it at all.  It is UN-limiting it/god/'the all'.  

Anything that is created is created within.  The rest is production and re-production.  

I used the words 'nothing' and 'no-thing' not to mean the absence of anything but to mean, nothing as being one definable thing.

The one god is undefinable  and unlimited and is self manifest and also ever changing and infinite.  There is no concept of anything outside of it.

Anyone can take a part of the whole and make a language to describe how it seems to work.  Some of this is belief  and some is science and some is art.  The whole is still the whole and undefinable and essentially UN-nameable.  The effect of this kind of a thought can leave somewhat of an insecure feeling in some people and they are more comfortable in naming something and be done with it as it does not require constant effort after the 'naming' is done.
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Beth
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« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2006, 01:52:25 »

I cannot be sure gdo, but we may be talking past each other. Sometimes I think we are on the same page, and sometimes definately not.

Maybe some other forum members can chime in and see if they can see better what is going on within our discussion.

Anyone willing to take a stab at it?

~Beth
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kai wren
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« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2006, 07:41:08 »

I'll give it a shot, but I could be totally wrong.

I think the problem is that your perceptions of what would limit god are.

Gdo clearly believes that it is not limiting at all for God to be part of his creation, accepting that he is part of everything inside it, because clearly if God created everything, he would have to be inside his creation to create that.

The problem comes when you consider what was there before God created... anything, because from our standpoint there must have been a place for him to be before he created this place. Therefore, God must be outside his creation, because he was around before it was created.

I believe that Christianity gets around this problem quite well with the Trinity- the Father is outside this universe, The Son is inside the world, and the Holy Ghost is everywhere. Thus they can represent one overall deity as being in three places at once simply and easily.


(note: Him was used in this post for ease, and is not meant to oppress your own beliefs as to the gender of your deity.)
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gdo
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« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2006, 03:08:02 »

LOL!!

OK.  It is not really to complicated.

Imagine for a moment that EVERYTHING that can exist and has ever existed is the physical manifest ion of the creator.  

There is no possibility of anything being outside of god or the creator at all.  It is not a person.  It is not a humanoid image.  It can have no name.  There is no name that would suffice in any language.  Even the word god is insufficient.  The ONE Wholeness of all of that exists is beyond the grasp of  what words can convey.

That does not mean that this concept is beyond a human experience.

A good example of this is that you cannot talk to a dead person and ask them what death or the afterlife is like.  But, neither of the two experiences rely on BELIEF alone.  

There are persons who have had experiences that are beyond the common uses of most languages.   You cannot see an electron or electricity but you can observe  their cumulative effects.  The normal and average human can only perceive that which is available to the limited capabilities of the eyeball and the parts of the brain that really 'see'.  
You only SEE the visual band vibrations that are referred to as 'light'.
You and all of us do not SEE infrared or  ultraviolet but we can sense its effects.  
Now, multiply that.  There are forms of existence that the average persons cannot perceive.  They are not common experiences and there are not common word for them in most languages.  Hence, each culture utilized what IS common to convey a concept based on what is important to that culture.  

The word 'god' is, in effect, a normalization.  It represents the totality of what science and religion and art and culture can imply and then goes on infinitely.

It is elegantly expressed in the 'Shema'.  But that is by no means a definition.  

No one religion on earth can encompass the reality of what 'god' is.  But, all things on earth and all that are on earth are encompassed by 'god'.

Otherwise, 'god' would not be god, but only a regional Deity invented by a small group of mankind isolated in history, and eventually destroyed by invention and the inventive.
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Beth
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« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2006, 03:36:01 »

gdo wrote:
Quote
OK. It is not really to complicated.
Imagine for a moment that EVERYTHING that can exist and has ever existed is the physical manifest ion of the creator. There is no possibility of anything being outside of god or the creator at all... All things on earth and all that are on earth are encompassed by 'god'.


You mean "pantheism" then???

Various Definitions of Pantheism:

1) An understanding which identifies God and the world as one, either without qualification, or with the world as a divine emanation, body, development, appearance, or modality.
2) Belief that God equates to the universe, and vice versa.
3) The doctrine that God is in all things.
4) The belief that God and the Universe are identical.
5) The philosophical form of monism that identifies mind and matter, finite and infinite, as manifestations of One Universal or Absolute Being, the doctrine which holds that the self-existent universe, conceived as a whole, is God.

and so on, and so on...

On one level of understanding, this is equivalent to the Greek idea of the Cosmic Logos which I mentioned earlier. That is why I said that sometimes I think we agree, and then you say something that contradicts your previously stated position...:confused:

~Beth

p.s. The "Shema" recitation tells us very little about "God." The Shema is more about "Humanity." The Shema is about Judaism's belief in the "relationship between them and God."  And "hashema" or "THE NAME" tells us even less...
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« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2006, 17:07:58 »

Dear Beth

I have a few observations if you don't mind. I think that often the issue is not so much in a difference of belief but rather definition. It seems to me that you as a scholar are used to defining things very strictly. "If this is what you believe you go in that box, if that then that box" etc Much like earth science separating living things into groups mammals amphibians etc. This is apparently the only way you feel that a logic argument can be made, and maybe what we all miss..............but maybe not.

On this board as you well know it seems however that folks do not always know what they know so to speak, they have ideas and inspirations yet do not know the terms and definitions of said ideas, and you then spend long posts telling them "what they believe" so to speak.

I have tried to follow your arguments many times but often fail to relate to your points. Your intelligence and knowledge in your field is unquestionable and very inspiring, yet I find that with all your learning you sometimes miss a few things here and there. This is not said as a criticism of you but seems to be the by product of being a learned person.

In some ways Robert Bruce in his books, and also here on the net made a great break through in this area. He somehow was able to transcend established structures and discuss the issues themselves. He stayed away from "boxes" and definitions like Chakras Karma etc and just discussed the content of the box.

I don't know if I make myself clear it is just an observation, but it seem that in your area of expertise you have created a belief system or rather a non belief system with a very rigid support grid.

The idea that God can be in a box and even that he can be explained is IMO ludicrous in the first place. I think we all agree that there is a guiding force and we are all concerned with tapping into it, like a giant reservoir, but it seems that you often get into "how it will not work" or "what is not true" instead of what is and what will, making you the "judge or referee" in various discussions, rather than a player.

This emphasis on the more negative aspect of beliefs, seem a common pitfall to academics. It is not a big deal and is not said to minimize all you have to share but just a observation.

Regards Mustardseed
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« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2006, 20:28:27 »

Mustardseed,

Well, your post is an interesting turn of topics. Instead of giving your opinion about the discussion underway, you have, for some reason, tried to make "me" the issue. That is not what this thread, or this forum is all about. You have done this before...what makes you want to do that?

The only reason that I can think of, is that you disagree with my posts, but you cannot refute the points that I am making, so you try to "refute me personally" instead.

This just makes you look bad in the end, even though you try really hard to prevent this from happening when you say repeatedly that you don't wish to "offend me."

When you say something that is offending to someone and then say that "you don't mean to offend" you are psychologically trying to manipulate the situation in an attempt to excuse you from your own insulting behavior.

In other words, you are trying to diminish me personally with your negative points, e.g, that my academic background and level of intelligence is a negative influence to this forum, while at the same time you are trying to make yourself "a positive influence" by assuring me you do not wish "to offend me" while you are doing just that!

Religious Conservatives use this abnormal psychological tactic all the time to defend their irrational and hate-filled doctrines and dogmas. Like when they tell gay people that they are an abomination in the eyes of God, and that they will surely burn in hell for it, but that "as Christians" they "will love them anyway."  rolleyes  

Compassionate Conservative Christians: Hateful Judges wrapped in Loving Robes.

As to the issue currently being discussed on this thread, I am not the one trying to put God into a box. In fact, I am doing my level best -- not just here on the AP, but in all the work that I am doing -- to liberate God from all the boxes that humanity has built.  My most recent posts are pointing out why we cannot define God without building such a box.

"Language" in general and "certain religions" in specific are the "very rigid" structures that prohibit us in our understanding of, and our ability to discuss "God" and our astral experiences--not me. Further, we are not limited by the academic training or intelligent thinking that teaches us that our systems are not adequate to address the totality of the human experience.

In fact, I wish we did have the language capability that would make all of this easier, and moreover, I wish that our "religions" would encourage the exploration of God, instead of mandating prohibitions for doing so.  

And finally, I am a referee Mustardseed.  If you will remember, I was asked to be a moderator in the religion section because of my education--not in spite of it. Trust me when I say that as a moderator, I am not allowed to say a lot of things that I would really like to say sometimes...so "my personal opinions" are actually quite rare on this forum...

~Beth

p.s. If you think that it is in the best interest of this forum that I no longer remain in a referee capacity, please feel free to PM Adrian and ask for my termination.
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