Peace and common ground between Muslims and non-Muslims alike

[AmbientSound]

I am appalled by the poor examples of spiritual evolution that I have seen in recent postings concerning Islam, where hatred and insults were flung back and forth between two verbally warring parties, of which I was part.

No, I will not let this go. I am determined to achieve UNCONDITIONAL peace, respect, and common ground. Can it be achieved? What is required for this to happen? We are stuck on this world together with no sign of interstellar travel technology in sight. Before we end up nuking each other or blowing ourselves up, we ought to AT LEAST make an ATTEMPT at peace.

Anyone who has been following my posts in the matters concerning Islam will see that nearly ALL of my attempts at peace and common ground have been largely ignored, and that I was the only person who has made any expression of this intention. Only one person responded to a series of rather neutral questions I included in ONE post, in my attempt to gather information that might lead to the discovery of common ground. No common ground was found.

I'm not saying that I didn't spout a few insults myself, but with a new thread, I hope to find common ground and form peace. This isn't really a discussion about Islam, this is about finding common ground between Muslims and non-Muslims, learning what has to happen so that peace and respect can be maintained between the two while each gets to keep their beliefs. No Jihads, no unprovoked invasions of foreign countries, no intolerance of beliefs.

I am extending an offer of peace and good will to all who wish to participate in this, to all who strive to find this common ground and achieve peace. Let us say "NO" to verbal abuse and insults. Let us say "NO" to implications and assumptions about whose religion is right and whose is wrong. Let us say "NO" to feelings of superiority or inferiority. This is a level playing field where everyone gets to post something positive and ask questions in a civilized and mature manner. At the first sign of hostility, I request that this thread be locked IMMEDIATELY to prevent further escalation.


So, who is going to give this a try, and who isn't? I'm a non-Muslim, so if no Muslims respond then I will simply promote peace with whoever responds regardless.

[Vitruvian]

Hello all,
I will pick up the flag here, and suggest a different direction to try.

To all antagonists: whenever you attempt to prove your position as 'right', the battle is already lost. Because if you are right, someone (else, you hope) has to be wrong.  But each of us, due to the demands of ego, has to be right. So we spend incredible amounts of time and energy justifying our position. As a people, we've spent pretty much the entire history of the human race doing this and as the other thread shows, there is no apparent end in sight.   

Do you see the problem? Our historic way of resolving differences between ourselves (see above) pretty much doesn't work. It gets a lot of people killed, but it doesn't work.

Is it perhaps time for a change in tactics? At a minimum I would like to see some respect shown. Not for the other guy's opinion, which you may or may not agree with, but for the idea that the other guy has a right to his opinion.

This forum, of all places, should be a place where people that are interested in the potential for human development can rationally discuss our different points-of-view. Instead it quickly became just another war zone.

Why?

Because we need to be more right than the other guy. Just remember this: If there are seven billion human souls on this wonderful planet, then there are seven billion 'rights', seven billion versions of truth. Deal with it, and please put those rocks down.

Namaste,
Vitruvian

[Tayesin]

Hi Ambient,
Just finished posting this in the Dear Mustardseed thread. So I hope no one has a problem with it being replicated here, which is where it should have been in the first place. LOL

"When will people see that no matter what you believe, no matter what culture you were born to, no matter the indoctrinations of your society, that we are all human beings on the face of this little world who do not act towards each other in a humanitarian way?

We do not see that all people have the same desires and needs, nor do we see that they all have family and loved ones, just as I do, and you do.

We do not see therefore that we are all in the same boat, together but separated; instead of joining forces to row the boat together we persist in continuing archaic behaviors of separation based on some perceived superiority.

Yes religion has a lot to answer for. The past cruelties still live with us to this day, no matter which religion we look at.

So our only hope for a peaceful world is to see clearly what it is that unites us and therefore stop seeing the differences as something to kill each other for.

We are heading into major changes in the way human beings live on this world and if we persist in the separation drive then we will all have less chance of long term survival.

I am sure the Koran must speak of love and peace, as does the bible; both speak about the same god, albeit with a different name, and agree in the fact of a man known to us as Jesus, who is revered in both books?

With this in mind, can we then not move towards seeing the similarities? Can we then not re-unite as humanity?

If not then I am sad to say all is lost, already.

Pray to your God for clarity, for Peace and for the Love and the Light 'He' intended for us to experience but have chosen to live apart from."

Love Always.

[AmbientSound]

Thanks for the replies, it is encouraging to see that I am not alone in my cause. You are right, having to be right is an ego-based "need" and it should stop. It is one thing for a person to say that they disagree, and quite another to tell the other person that they are wrong.

[Mustardseed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUBLfcGcN5Y&feature=related

Dear AS
While I do sincerely appreciate your efforts in finding common ground I fear that it is an effort doomed to fail. Why would I say this?…..because I do not want it?…..not at all. I would welcome a common ground a mutual expression of respect ………..but ….(yes there is a but).

In order to have a mutual respectful discussion, it requires that 2 parties come together, both laying down their arms, agreeing to examine themselves, and their previous held attitudes and beliefs in the light of EQUALITY. A measure of self examination you could say.

If one of the parties does not, from the heart, adhere to this goal, the objective will be defeated.

Let us put forth a metaphor here. If a man is being robbed, beaten and mistreated, by a violent unrepentant foe, and someone happens on the incident, it might be possible that the same request be made. The victim could be required to lay down his arms, in order to come to a peaceful agreement with the very person who had the INTENT of robbing him. In other words the robber and the victim will have to assume equal responsibility for the incident.  Is this fair? (I know they will claim this victims role, because of the war, but neither you or I support this war, yet they support violence toward people like us)

I ask you, is that fair?. In your pursuit for peace, are you leaving out a true and fair judgment on the parties involved, and their INTENT. It is very laudable to want peace but if peace is attained, on the dead bodies of innocent victims, it is a false peace, and the violence will only escalate, as the perpetrator moves to the next victim.

So how does that apply? I will use one example only, in order to stay away from controversy. Lets take Shams or Osama. Here you have 2 posters who state publicly that they support the execution of apostates from Islam. They support the killing of innocent people who are evolving in their religious view, exercising their human right to believe and act out their peaceful beliefs any way they see fit, in order to promote their twisted political/religion objective.

You seek peace and common ground with such people, how do you expect that to happen.

I do not support the war in Iraq, I do not believe in violence, I do not claim that Christianity must be spread through a crusade. Yet because I dare to question the violent attitudes so readily expressed by these same posters, I am called into question and considered an EQUAL part in the contention…………….I am not. I merely use my liberty to question a religion that permits its followers the use of VIOLENCE to promote its objectives. I question its validity as a TRUE religion and spiritual path. Such a religion has no right to be heard, no right to exist.

Like John Lennon said “I know you want a revolution we all wanna’ change the world, but if your talking about destruction, don’t you know that you can count me out”.

In the effort to find common ground, please do not make the mistake of lowering your own spiritual standard………. just to find a common denominator. Right is right, wrong is wrong. Killing people to promote a religious point of view is WRONG. Don’t get blinded by the mirrors.

This is no lofty religious debate, it is real. If these 2 posters state their clear intent, of applauding and calling for such a violent line, and shows no remorse, they should be called out for what they are. Hatemongers! Yea I said it.

It is my opinion, that while you may find common ground with Muslims, based on mutually held humanistic world view, you will never find common ground with Islam and the Koran, unless you convert to it’s teachings that is.

All that said I find your post kind and thoughtful, and in spirit I applaud your effort. Lets see who comes forward.

Regards Mustardseed

Change Mao for Muhammed and you you have my point of view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUs5yuWp6Ro

[AmbientSound]

Hi Mustardseed

I will have peace with or without the Muslims. Whether they choose to take part is entirely up to them. I will not give up a micron of my sacred spiritual space or energy to anyone, nor do I ask others to do this for me. What I do demand is the respect of an equal, what I do demand is empirical data, data that is objective and is universally accepted, not just from one (even if collective) viewpoint. What I do demand is a level playing field and that everyone plays by the same rules. There is a universally accepted way of having an argument, and then there is simply contradiction, the half-assed attempt and failure to have an argument. In other words, the automatic gainsaying of whatever the opposition says.

Arguments can be respectful, they don't have to be fierce battles. But again, everyone has to be playing by the same rules and on a level playing field.

[AmbientSound]

So far no expressions of peaceful intentions from the Muslims here in this thread... I wonder what's going on with them, if they were banned, have not read this thread, etc. Has anyone heard from them?

[AmbientSound]

I hate to post three replies in a row, but I haven't heard a peep out of Shams or Usaama. If they truly intended peace, they would have replied by now. It has been a couple weeks since I started this thread. They've had plenty of time to cool off and re-think things. I know that if they were not banned, then they have read my first post in this thread and all that followed. I know because I have carefully and painstakingly monitored and analyzed their reply patterns in the other threads (no, not Homeland Security-type surveillance or anything like that), which seemed very fishy to me to begin with, filled with blanket statements and prejudices about Western societies and lacking in answers to an endless array of questions asked of them. They have been reading the responses in previous threads almost constantly, a few times a day. They have responded only when they felt like it and they only answered the questions they felt like answering. Their lack of a response, by my logic, is a testament to their negative intentions and shows their true colors, exposing them for what they really are- hatemongers, as Mustardseed pointed out. If you disagree with them, they insult you, and when you extend your hand and offer peace and good will... silence is all you get in return. I cannot find common ground or make peace with such individuals.

Sorry, I don't mean to stir up the muck, but the evidence clearly speaks for itself. I had no intention to change their minds, I just wanted to deliver a final blow to their argument by offering unconditional peace and good will, which I knew they would never accept. There is no way that I will ever become a Muslim, if whomever I may encounter that acts to represent them, cannot extend peace beyond their own, even if it is offered to them first.

I don't think anything else needs to be said.

[Mustardseed]

Dear AS
My experience is that once you have exposed the tactic they use, in drawing attention to western imperialism, to avoid answering questions about Islam, they simply leave. Islam is totalitarian, and does not allow questions. It is......thats all, and must be accepted without question as absolute and perfect.

I hope, that what happens is that individuals such as Osama and Shams, will start to question their own beliefsystem, rather than listening to the propaganda they are being fed. This seem to be the only way some learn, by personally being confronted with what they claim to believe. Sadly it is very difficult to have a reasonable conversation with such folk.

Regards MS

[Stookie]

No one was banned. I think it's as simple as the thread's title: There's not really any common ground. And if none can be found, then silence is probably best.

[AmbientSound]

well-said

[kamals]

I am appalled by the poor examples of spiritual evolution that I have seen in recent postings concerning Islam, where hatred and insults were flung back and forth between two verbally warring parties, of which I was part.

No, I will not let this go. I am determined to achieve UNCONDITIONAL peace, respect, and common ground. Can it be achieved? What is required for this to happen? We are stuck on this world together with no sign of interstellar travel technology in sight. Before we end up nuking each other or blowing ourselves up, we ought to AT LEAST make an ATTEMPT at peace.

Anyone who has been following my posts in the matters concerning Islam will see that nearly ALL of my attempts at peace and common ground have been largely ignored........
I am extending an offer of peace and good will to all who wish to participate in this, to all who strive to find this common ground and achieve peace. ......

So, who is going to give this a try, and who isn't? I'm a non-Muslim, so if no Muslims respond then I will simply promote peace with whoever responds regardless.

As a Muslim I am game, so to speak. I've had a long absence from this forum (2 years... I think) and I itch to step back in.

There are a few things to note, which is that a good deal of negative emotion is fundamentally based in ignorance and selective vision, on the part of non-Muslims and Muslims alike. Frankly, many non-Western born Muslims have a lack of knowledge of many aspects of Western cultures and religions that affects their reactions.

SO TOO, and on a greater scale, is there massive ignorance among Westerners (Americans in particular) of the range of opinions, views, and teachings in the Islamic world.  People have a mutually narrow vision of the other, and like all narrow visions, such is fundamentally grounded IN FACT, but in a narrow range of facts and a nuanced picture is lost.

Adding to this is the ignorance of many Western non-Muslims of many aspects of their own religious history, AS WELL AS the very real ignorance of many Muslims of aspects of our religious history.

Knowledge is the first antidote.

Some of this is UNAVOIDABLE and any attempt at meaningful mutual discourse (which I favor) has to acknowledge this fact. Much of what contributes to mutual ill will and animosity in this topic is, frankly, the burden of history. Certain things have happened throughout history that conditions our modern emotional and intellectual responses. We exist in history, not floating around in the astral plane perpetually, that is to say that we are embodied beings perceiving time in a linear manner with a finite survey of the world. We try to stretch these boundaries, push the envelopes of perception, but fundamentally we exist here, now, and this conditions our perceptions.

So GOOD WILL IS NOT ENOUGH, and indeed it has to be truly good will with an openness to "the other", to the differences of "the other" with a willingness to learn.

Each side needs to realize, truly realize, that the reactions of the other may often be based in real pain, and real suffering, that was experienced by the other in history.

For example, just as many non-Muslim Americans were profoundly psychically wounded by 9/11, many Muslims have been profoundly psychically wounded in similar traumas whose history and existence many Americans are simply unaware of. The historical sense of being betrayed, conquered, subjugated, these feelings are very real and failure to understand how someone from a part of the world whose mother was raped, village was bombed, and sister blown up by shrapnel, in a conflict in history that you are unaware of, failure to understand that person's rage will prevent mutual communication.

All of us have been conditioned into certain worldviews, educated in certain ways, and the inability to examine our OWN subjective conditioning will affect our abilities to meaningfully discourse. I submit also that some differences can not be overcome on the plane of discourse and ideas. That at the end of the day, honest discoursers may find much in common, but also must have the honesty to respect the irreconcilable differences of the other. And some differences are irreconcilable.

However many are very reconcilable. It is a choice, spiritual and intellectual maturity is in part an ability to accept the way things are, and the way things are is that non-Muslims and Muslims can come to agree on many things, but will also disagree on many things, and that is ok if we can disagree, and agree, in an air of honor and respect.

[Mustardseed]

Dear Kamals
Welcome. I would agree that I have at times posted things that I should have refrained from posting, I was rather frustrated with the posters as my questions were met with insults , and instead of keeping cool I jumped in with both feet, and retaliated. If you take the time however to read how the thread progressed you will understand why this happened.

My questions are related to the Koran not Islam on a whole or Muslims, as a group. They remain unanswered.

I have studied the Koran and find that people are confused. Firstly every time one refers to the warlike suras one is told that there are many peaceful verses as well, yet the Koran cannot be personally interpreted because of the doctrine of ABORGATION.

Another very often used tactic is to attack the Bible instead of explaining the doctrine in the Koran. (the Bible or even America or the west). It is as if Muslims  believe that the "wickedness of the west and the evils of America" is their justification for any and all warlike attitudes and actions.

I have posted many things and never got any answer but instead have been called a variety of names and been threatened with hell fire or even on 1 occasion with Violence.

Regards Mustardseed

Please read this and reply the issues if you have the time  thank you very much for your time   

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_world_religions/peaceful_religious_dialogue_islamchristianity-t26626.30.html

[kamals]

Hello Mustardseed.

Fair enough, I'll have a go at your questions, keeping in mind I am one Muslim, with his own conditioning, education, and emotions, trying to make hermeunetics of a text that predates all of us and emerged in a very different world, just like the Bible, just like the Talmud, just like the Baghvad Gita.

Some of my replies may make muslim and non-Muslim alike uncomfortable and should not be seen as absolute truth in any way, I think that my replies will be informed by a real and honest exploration of Islam's tradition, but at the end of the day I am a layman, and not a scholar, and thus none of my replies should be taken as authoritative in any way.

I'll give it a shot

[AmbientSound]

Thank you for your real and sincere efforts, Kamals. I welcome and accept the observations and expressions of all paths so that I may learn from them and grow- I am still open to Islam and what it has to say, despite what has taken place in previous threads. You have said what I have been trying to say in the other threads, and you have said it respectfully, rationally, and reasonably. I look forward to the insights you have to offer.