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RobertForsythe
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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2016, 06:38:16 »

If we tell you that we believe Lumaza's observation applies to any church and religion that accepts and preaches from the Bible and any other texts that speak about Satan and the devil, will you let us believe that and not try to convince us other way. What's written in the bible is black and white. I don't think it can be interpreted any differently.  We understand your beliefs and all of us here are entitled to our own views. We express them here, but we cant let a discussion to turn into an argument. Because as I said, no one can convince me otherwise, nor can i convince you to accept my beliefs.

I have challenged no one's beliefs.

I have only asked Lumaza to clarify what Lumaza said.

You say, "What's written in the bible is black and white. I don't think it can be interpreted any differently."
?!
Huh

What is written in the Bible is written in Hebrew, translated into Greek, re-translated into Latin, re-re-translated into umpteen vernacular languages... and it is open to all kinds of 'interpretations' and routinely is....
?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 06:43:24 by RobertForsythe » Logged
LightBeam
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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2016, 06:56:07 »


What is written in the Bible is written in Hebrew, translated into Greek, re-translated into Latin, re-re-translated into umpteen vernacular languages... and it is open to all kinds of 'interpretations' and routinely is....
?

Then the bible should be dismissed all together because everyone is interpreting it according to their own beliefs anyway. We all interpret life the way we want, so religion does not make sense to exist at all, unless the organization itself wants to hold on to the money, power and control. I'll leave this discussion here, as I do not wish to turn this into one endless argument.
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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2016, 06:56:07 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

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RobertForsythe
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« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2016, 07:14:06 »

Then the bible should be dismissed all together because everyone is interpreting it according to their own beliefs anyway. We all interpret life the way we want, so religion does not make sense to exist at all, unless the organization itself wants to hold on to the money, power and control. I'll leave this discussion here, as I do not wish to turn this into one endless argument.

That is a giant logical fallacy. Just because the Bible is a translation subject to interpretation does not mean it should be "dismissed". Not at all.

Religion is only a senseless entity to those who refuse to objectively see it for what it is. Religion makes perfectly good sense to honest, objective people that simply take it at face value with no malice aforethought.

People who have a desperate need to hate will fabricate a little doll they call religion and stick pins in it all day long.
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LightBeam
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« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2016, 07:19:35 »



People who have a desperate need to hate will fabricate a little doll they call religion and stick pins in it all day long.


I emanate only love, Robert, only love.... In order to save the world, I must apply tough love   wink  Come to the light  LOL evil
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« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2016, 08:56:12 »

you create what you believe so to say that someone is wrong in their own perception is impossible. cheesy

There is only one thing that can stop, hinder or influence unlimited freewill and that is yourself.
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« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2016, 08:56:12 »



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RobertForsythe
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« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2016, 08:58:15 »

you create what you believe so to say that someone is wrong in their own perception is impossible. cheesy

No one said that.
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« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2016, 09:09:45 »

I'm not saying anyone said that. I'm making a point to explain that you create your reality. Arguing right and wrong feels pointless.
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ThaomasOfGrey
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« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2016, 10:20:39 »

ThaomasOfGrey, Where do you think Creation came from?
Where do you think you came from?

I can't speak from experience on either count, just speculation from things I have heard and ideas I have strung together.

I'm not sure what you mean by creation - if you are talking about this universe I believe it is all an elaborate virtual construct for the purpose of experience. I don't know how the underlying data structure is stored, I suggest it is somehow stored in the mind of the collective consciousness. Individual units generate a virtual reality based on that underlying data, and that is what we are.

I think creation and ourselves both come from consciousness. I don't believe that there are these singular entities God and Satan that fill our minds with various notions. It doesn't make sense based on what I have experienced and observed. I don't think it makes sense even on a conceptual level.

Robert, you don't need to pull any punches with me if you reply!

I don't have much against religion as a concept, I only dislike dogmatism or any limiting view really.
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Positive3
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« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2016, 14:25:56 »

RobertForsythe,

What idea you follow or beleive have faith in? , i mean like any religions or something like that? Christianity, Hinduism or ?
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Xanth
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« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2016, 17:09:14 »

Robert, please choose a less antagonistic approach to your posts.
Consider this a warning.
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RobertForsythe
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« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2016, 21:34:22 »

I'm not saying anyone said that. I'm making a point to explain that you create your reality. Arguing right and wrong feels pointless.

Maybe it feels that way to some.

Arguing right and wrong is an age old tradition practiced by those who wish to know truth. It is far from pointless. It only works though, when both sides are interested in truth. If one or both dig their heels in and obstinately cling to falsehood, there is no learning.

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RobertForsythe
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« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2016, 21:38:41 »

I can't speak from experience on either count, just speculation from things I have heard and ideas I have strung together.
[....]
Robert, you don't need to pull any punches with me if you reply!

I don't have much against religion as a concept, I only dislike dogmatism or any limiting view really.

It sounds like you have embraced the Campbell MBT. I admit that something had to create the virtual reality.
I remember being taught that dogma was bad but over time I realized that it had some useful purpose. I saw many dogmatists making more progress than those who rejected it out of hand. I see automatic rejection of dogma as a very limiting view as well.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 21:44:55 by RobertForsythe » Logged
RobertForsythe
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« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2016, 21:41:34 »

RobertForsythe,

What idea you follow or beleive have faith in? , i mean like any religions or something like that? Christianity, Hinduism or ?

I follow no particular religion. I am a Truthist.
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ThaomasOfGrey
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« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2016, 23:53:34 »

It sounds like you have embraced the Campbell MBT. I admit that something had to create the virtual reality.
I remember being taught that dogma was bad but over time I realized that it had some useful purpose. I saw many dogmatists making more progress than those who rejected it out of hand. I see automatic rejection of dogma as a very limiting view as well.

Yes, similar to Campbell's theories I suppose - I have only seen him on a few videos so I don't know MBT more than the basics.

I would say that my view separates from a fundamentalist when it comes to the nature of creationism. A fundamentalist might say that this planet was fabricated 10,000 years ago with all species popping out of thin air, fossils placed in the ground as a test of our faith. Whereas I believe the nature of the universe to be seeded through an event such as a big bang and whatever happens happens - there is no further interference with the system. It may have taken trillions of big bang simulations to get one planet like earth out of the probability soup.

Some fundamentalists also deny evolution, which I find ridiculous, challenge me on men evolving from apes, but evolution is a fundamental mechanic that is nigh unavoidable when life and death is involved in the system. Furthermore, confusing the order of cause and effect - "man is created because his body follows golden proportion", I say that the fundamental laws of the universe guarantee that life evolves in a certain way.

I have personal experience with dogmatists, my brother is a Jehoviah's Witness. I am happy to admit that this was a positive in his life, initially. It got him onto the first rung of the ladder, but now I feel that he is stuck and his fundamentalist beliefs are so limiting that he is incapable of doing something as simple as watching a movie like Lord of the Rings because he believes it is a tool of the devil. Furthermore he shields his children from these experiences.

I believe that it is fine to assess a dogmatic view for its flaws and merits - but I am going to challenge your notion of automatic rejection of dogma.

We must automatically reject dogma, if you do not, you are a fundamentalist and you have shut off all other possibilities. That is what it is to accept dogma. As soon as you start thinking you have the one answer, you have already failed.
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RobertForsythe
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« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2016, 02:40:17 »

Yes, similar to Campbell's theories I suppose - I have only seen him on a few videos so I don't know MBT more than the basics.

I would say that my view separates from a fundamentalist when it comes to the nature of creationism. A fundamentalist might say that this planet was fabricated 10,000 years ago with all species popping out of thin air, fossils placed in the ground as a test of our faith. Whereas I believe the nature of the universe to be seeded through an event such as a big bang and whatever happens happens - there is no further interference with the system. It may have taken trillions of big bang simulations to get one planet like earth out of the probability soup.

Some fundamentalists also deny evolution, which I find ridiculous, challenge me on men evolving from apes, but evolution is a fundamental mechanic that is nigh unavoidable when life and death is involved in the system. Furthermore, confusing the order of cause and effect - "man is created because his body follows golden proportion", I say that the fundamental laws of the universe guarantee that life evolves in a certain way.

I have personal experience with dogmatists, my brother is a Jehoviah's Witness. I am happy to admit that this was a positive in his life, initially. It got him onto the first rung of the ladder, but now I feel that he is stuck and his fundamentalist beliefs are so limiting that he is incapable of doing something as simple as watching a movie like Lord of the Rings because he believes it is a tool of the devil. Furthermore he shields his children from these experiences.

I believe that it is fine to assess a dogmatic view for its flaws and merits - but I am going to challenge your notion of automatic rejection of dogma.

We must automatically reject dogma, if you do not, you are a fundamentalist and you have shut off all other possibilities. That is what it is to accept dogma. As soon as you start thinking you have the one answer, you have already failed.

I completely disagree on your Dogma position. I know many dogma followers (as differentiated from the dictionary 'dogmatist') who are not even remotely fundamentalist. They adhere to the tenets of a faith but they follow a life discipline that guides them on a Path that leads them out of addiction, chronic anger, pathological lying, etc. and into a productive life of learning and growing.

There are countless numbers of these religious faithful who are making eternal progress in leaps and bounds past the wishy washy mamby pamby ohhh maybe your truth isn't my truth, its all good, all is illusion, new agey types who are actually regressing as they slide back along the slippery slope of their delusional fantasy as they reject blatant, obvious reality directly in front of their noses.

Very often I have seen that, as soon as you start thinking you have the one answer, you have finally got enough traction to overcome what used to seem like an insurmountable obstacle and begin to move forward. I have seen people make huge progress by acting on Giant Falsehood One after giant falsehood two after giant falsehood three ... letting go of their last false belief every five or ten years, and moving on to the next.

But getting back to the original point of disagreement on this thread...
Say I said that "Jehovah's Witness followers practice cannibalism on Christmas day" and you have family connections to that faith and you know it is a false claim... why is it perceived as antagonistic to respond with a simple statement, "that is a false claim"?

?

Then the person who makes that claim replies, "oh, well, that is my belief so you can't deny me that act of faith" ...
?

But often claims such as this are patently false claims and it is easy to prove. For example this thread is about Satan and a claim was made that "The Church" invented Satan to control people through fear"... but "The Church" inherited Satan from an ancient belief system -- "Satan" was already several thousand years old before "The Church" was even born! How could the Church be held responsible for *that*?!

What world... what a world....




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Lumaza
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« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2016, 03:16:30 »

But often claims such as this are patently false claims and it is easy to prove. For example this thread is about Satan and a claim was made that "The Church" invented Satan to control people through fear"... but "The Church" inherited Satan from an ancient belief system -- "Satan" was already several thousand years old before "The Church" was even born! How could the Church be held responsible for *that*?!
Hmm, those Ancient belief systems you speak of talked about "GODS". Yes, that is plural for a reason.

 Robert you remind me of another gentleman who was once a member of this Forum named Wi11iam.  He was rather intelligent on facts, but when it came to letting something, he lacked that ability. Lightbeam, Nameless and I have politely requested that you end this "mission" that you are on to change our minds. That's exactly what the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses try to do when they knock at my door. I tell them the same thing I have told you. I also let them know that I will change my view when I see for myself that I am wrong period. That's the end of the conversation. Thank You. Then I respectfully close my door.

 You don't realize it but this entire thread you have indeed been preaching your side.
 preach
   (prēch)
v. preached, preach·ing, preach·es

v.tr.
1.  To proclaim or put forth in a sermon: preached the gospel.

2.  To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with: preached tolerance and peaceful coexistence.

3.  To deliver (a sermon).

v.intr.
1.  To deliver a sermon.

2.  To give religious or moral instruction, especially in a tedious manner.
Idiom:
preach to the  choir/converted
 To argue in favor of a viewpoint already held by one's audience.

 I still question today why a Forum that is based on Astral Projection needs to have a sub-Forum on Religion. You can look through the lengthy threads in that sub-Forum and see that almost every time they have ended in some kind of strife. When I was a Moderator here I witnessed that firsthand. We were always trying to clean up the mess that the topic created. Many times we needed to lock the thread period because it got so out of hand.
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RobertForsythe
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« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2016, 04:03:09 »

Hmm, those Ancient belief systems you speak of talked about "GODS". Yes, that is plural for a reason.

 Robert you remind me of another gentleman who was once a member of this Forum named Wi11iam.  He was rather intelligent on facts, but when it came to letting something, he lacked that ability. Lightbeam, Nameless and I have politely requested that you end this "mission" that you are on to change our minds. That's exactly what the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses try to do when they knock at my door. I tell them the same thing I have told you. I also let them know that I will change my view when I see for myself that I am wrong period. That's the end of the conversation. Thank You. Then I respectfully close my door.

 You don't realize it but this entire thread you have indeed been preaching your side.
 preach
   (prēch)
v. preached, preach·ing, preach·es

v.tr.
1.  To proclaim or put forth in a sermon: preached the gospel.

2.  To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with: preached tolerance and peaceful coexistence.

3.  To deliver (a sermon).
[....]

(Hmmm... now Robert is trying to get a bead on what constitutes "antagonistic" on this forum)

I did not see where Lightbeam requested that I end any so called "mission" (that does not exist)

I doubt anyone here would pretend that I am arguing in favor of a viewpoint already held by this audience.
I have given no religious or moral instruction
I have made no sermons.

I have merely challenged a few obviously false claims in a succinct manner.

I have made no effort to change anyone's mind. I have merely pointed out falsehood. One thing I have noticed... if you repeat anti-Catholic bigotry you are good to go on most AP forums but if you challenge anti-Catholic bigotry you quickly wear out your welcome... and if you prove that the typical anti-Catholic bigotry is blatant falsehood you are branded a criminal.

I have no idea who "Wi11iam" is but I will search the forum for his posts now that you mention it.

Edit; You say "those Ancient belief systems you speak of talked about "GODS". Yes, that is plural for a reason."
-- yes this is an interesting observation... they used the term Elohim (gods-plural) but then used a conjugation in the same sentence that implied the "Elohim" (plural) were a "singular" entity. Very interesting indeed.

« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 04:14:19 by RobertForsythe » Logged
Lumaza
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« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2016, 04:32:15 »

I have made no effort to change anyone's mind. I have merely pointed out falsehood. One thing I have noticed... if you repeat anti-Catholic bigotry you are good to go on most AP forums but if you challenge anti-Catholic bigotry you quickly wear out your welcome... and if you prove that the typical anti-Catholic bigotry is blatant falsehood you are branded a criminal.
Your falsehood. You are the one that thinks it is a Falsehood. Don't you see that?

 Also, pertaining to your post about AP Forums speaking "anti-Catholic bigotry" as you call it, that should tell you something about the way that many people that do AP feel, simply because they have "seen" or "awoken" to something different. Their views, as mine, have changed because of something we have experienced firsthand, not something we read in a book or were told by another person.

 Do you actively project Robert? If you do, where do you go, what do you see? Do you use that time to explore? Have you ever ended up in a "Training Ground" or 'Astral School" scenario. I am not saying this to "one up" you. I am asking because many before you people that have come here to this Forum to challenge our beliefs, haven't even had a successful fully conscious AP themselves, besides maybe walking around the Etheric realms for bit before they find themselves back in their bodies. By this I mean have you ever did meaningful explorations there. Have you been led by a Guide or mentor. Things like that.

 You can PM me if you want to answer those questions privately.

 I have a feeling that this conversation/thread is going to be locked soon anyways. This isn't a battle. There are no winners or losers here.  If you reread all the posts here, you will see the posters saying basically the thing in general and that's that you won't change our beliefs. Seeing firsthand and experiencing leads to our current mindset.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 04:40:57 by Lumaza » Logged

Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."
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RobertForsythe
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« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2016, 05:01:41 »

Your falsehood. You are the one that thinks it is a Falsehood. Don't you see that?

 Also, pertaining to your post about AP Forums speaking "anti-Catholic bigotry" as you call it, that should tell you something about the way that many people that do AP feel, simply because they have "seen" or "awoken" to something different. Their views, as mine, have changed because of something we have experienced firsthand, not something we read in a book or were told by another person.

 Do you actively project Robert? If you do, where do you go, what do you see? Do you use that time to explore? Have you ever ended up in a "Training Ground" or 'Astral School" scenario. I am not saying this to "one up" you. I am asking because many before you people that have come here to this Forum to challenge our beliefs, haven't even had a successful fully conscious AP themselves, besides maybe walking around the Etheric realms for bit before they find themselves back in their bodies. By this I mean have you ever did meaningful explorations there. Have you been led by a Guide or mentor. Things like that.

 You can PM me if you want to answer those questions privately.

 I have a feeling that this conversation/thread is going to be locked soon anyways. This isn't a battle. There are no winners or losers here.  If you reread all the posts here, you will see the posters saying basically the thing in general and that's that you won't change our beliefs. Seeing firsthand and experiencing leads to our current mindset.


No Lumaza... universal falsehood.
When someone says 2+2=5 it is a false statement. 2+2=4 always.

On projection; you know that I have openly spoken of the fact that I have consciously projected hundreds of times. I have done this on a fairly regular and reliable basis for the past 5 or 6 years. The fact that you challenge that here leads me to doubt your sincerity even further, now.

I have been to astral training schools many times. Not just astral but realms in dimensions wayyy beyond mere astral. Those who never get beyond the astral plane are wrong about a LOT. Most who get OBE never even manage to reach the true astral realm.

Yes, I see many posters here making the same wrong statements about the 'astral' plane over and over again. I let them slide given that one can't refer to simple historical fact to refute their errors in perception in another dimension.

The fact that you would even present such questions under these circumstances says a lot.



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Xanth
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« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2016, 06:13:22 »

No Lumaza... universal falsehood.
When someone says 2+2=5 it is a false statement. 2+2=4 always.

On projection; you know that I have openly spoken of the fact that I have consciously projected hundreds of times. I have done this on a fairly regular and reliable basis for the past 5 or 6 years. The fact that you challenge that here leads me to doubt your sincerity even further, now.

I have been to astral training schools many times. Not just astral but realms in dimensions wayyy beyond mere astral. Those who never get beyond the astral plane are wrong about a LOT. Most who get OBE never even manage to reach the true astral realm.

Yes, I see many posters here making the same wrong statements about the 'astral' plane over and over again. I let them slide given that one can't refer to simple historical fact to refute their errors in perception in another dimension.

The fact that you would even present such questions under these circumstances says a lot.
Robert, your attitude SUCKS.  You're completely blinded by your own ego and your dogma.

I don't usually make public statements like this, but in the light that you clearly have no desire to "discuss" here you only want to shove YOUR perspectives down everyone's throats, you're no longer welcome here.  Email me if you wish to discuss further, but enough is enough. 

I have a forum to keep running smoothly here and quite frankly YOU are making that impossible.
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