The Neverending Thread (was SATAN DECEIVES YOU)

[LA FORET MAUVE]

wow please don't shout [B)]

[Adrian]

Greetings Allanon,

I am very tempted to analyse and respond to your claims in detail. However I will refrain from doing so []

I would just like to say there is no judgement in the Universe. Everything and everyone in the Universe is subject to the same immutable laws of cause and effect on the path back to our creator. No belief in ancient texts or persons will alter that one iota.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Tab]

quote:Originally posted by Allanon

God does not outlaw AP. That is the whole purpose of free choice. But you will REAP consequences for communing with demons and fallen spirits. You can fight the Bible all you want but on your death bed you BETTER MAKE SURE YOU ARE SQUARED AWAY WITH CHRIST!!

You New Agers have no standard by which to base your morality. You have a book written by Robert Bruce that is a MAN MADE creation.

The Bible is the Word of God and is verified by the many prophecies and eye witness accounts of the apostles.

JESUS CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD. NO NEW AGE IDEOLOGY OR MYSTIC RELIGON EVEN CLAIMS THIS. THEY ARE ALL DEAD IN THERE GRAVES. CHRIST STILL LIVES AND WANTS YOU TO LIVE TOO!!! ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS EXCEPT GOD'S PLAN RATHER THAN MAN'S.

Jesus still lives? Ooooh yeahh now I remember, I think he changed my tires last week.

Actually Allanon, I follow the word of the Vedas and the Upanisads, which were both concieved and written LONG, LONG before your Bible was collected and butchered by King James or whoever. I think it was said, what, that the vedas originated 10,000 years ago and were written down in sanscrit about 5000yrs ago?

The vedas are considered by many, many people to be the direct knowledge of the gods. These people considered this a long time before the apostles recieved the 'word of god'.

Even Jesus's own religion has it's mystical Kabala, which holds the real keys to the wisdom of the bible and Judaism. Sadly the true followers of the mystical christos have all but died out in favor of a blind institution who's lost all meaning.


Oh did I mention I say this prayer every night before bed?

quote:"I believe in the Devil, the Father Almighty of Evil, the Destroyer of all things, Perturbator of Heaven and Earth;
And in Anti-Christ, his only Son, our Persecutor,
Who was conceived of the Evil Spirit;
Born of a sacrilegious, foolish Virgin;
Was glorified by mankind, reigned over them,
And ascended to the throne of Almighty God,
From which he crowds Him aside, and from which he insults the living and the dead;
I believe in the Spirit of Evil;
The Synagogue of Satan;
The coalition of the wicked;
The perdition of the body;
And the Death and Hell everlasting. Amen."

http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/isis/iu2-10a.htm []

[Tisha]

To all who would evangelize, and by this I don't mean just Allanon, I mean everyone who has a powerful spiritual message he wishes to communicate:

There are good and bad ways to evangelize.  Or more like, there are effective ways, and useless ways, and downright counterproductive ways, to deliver the message of Christ.  

Allanon, you are not evangelizing at all.  Read your posts: You come across in a threatening manner.  If you intended to start a flame war, you may or may not have gotten exactly what you wanted.  However, if you really wanted people to accept Christ, you have  failed big-time.  Can you understand this?

Ye shall be known by your fruits.  The effective christian evangelist, the one who truly GETS Jesus, has a loving glow that can be felt even across the Internet. He/she is kind, does the right thing, and gives loving advice in a loving way. People think, "I want to be peaceful and loving and happy and right with God, how did he/she get that way?"  And then they ask questions, and the evangelist responds with his/her story. This is how it's done.

The rest of you . . . Jesus is alive and well and happy to let you get to Know him if that's what you want.  You don't need to be threatened into conversion, in order to Know This.  Therefore, I suggest everyone treat online religious threats the way you'd react to any street-corner evangelist . . . give him a wide berth, and keep on walking.

God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

[LA FORET MAUVE]

well said.
I just hope we will be able to "walk" in this forum without being too much "embarassed" with evangelists...[B)]

[Adrian]

Greetings Tab.

quote:Originally posted by Tab
Actually Allanon, I follow the word of the Vedas and the Upanisads, which were both concieved and written LONG, LONG before your Bible was collected and butchered by King James or whoever. I think it was said, what, that the vedas originated 10,000 years ago and were written down in sanscrit about 5000yrs ago?

Yes, I have great respect for the teachings the Vedas and Upanishads.

We must also remember Hermes Trismegisus who lived 4000 to 5000 years ago, one of the fathers of true knowledge and of alchemy.

The bible in contrast is a relatively recent collection of texts of unknown origin.

A quote from the Upanishads: By understanding the self, all this Universe is known

Also from Vedanta: Atman (individual consciousness) and Brahman (Universal consciousness) are one

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Soulfire]

Hi allanon,

I USED to be a born again Christian.  I grew up as an atheist, but around age 20 I started leaning towards christianity.  I was baptized on my 21st birthday and poured my heart into christianity.  I was as earnest a christian as I have ever met.  I went to a christian college, studied the bible, spent a lot of personal time in prayer, and even had a lot of external support from bishops and the seminary to become a minister.

I tried very hard to be a good christian.  During those years however, there were many things that did not feel "right" to me.  Certain things just did not make sense no matter how hard I tried to believe them and how much I prayed for help to understand and believe them.  As I learned more about the bible and how it came into existance, and compared the many different version of the bible and saw not just minor differences, but the basis for different groups of people to extract completely different and conflicting doctrines from those versions, I began to have serious doubts.  

As just one example, some churches assure you that once you accept Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your heart that you are saved for eternity.  They can point to various scriptures to support this.  Other churches will tell you that you are saved only so long as you continue to follow Jesus and they can point to scriptures that seem to support this also.  Radically different beliefs about arguably the most important central issue of Christianity (salvation) that can be legitimately argued from the point of the same Holy Bible that is supposedly infallible.

Then I noticed something else: most of the christian people I knew were not really manifesting any better or more godly behavior in their day to day lives than the many non-christians I knew.  Trying not to "point the finger" at other people, I decided to look at myself and then I realized something even more important:

I WAS NOT BECOMING ANY BETTER A PERSON AS A CHRISTIAN THAN I WAS BEFORE.  I was just as selfish, had just as much trouble being truly loving, I was very quick to judge other people and make them "wrong" (which often made it very easy for me to treat them with less than the true love Christ himself advocated towards all people), I struggled with lust constantly and felt dirty and guilty, etc.  I prayed about these things, asked for help from God, tried to fight them with my will, etc.  After about 6 years of this, I had to honestly admit to myself that I had become a "worse" person than I ever was before...steeped in obscure guilt and fear that I could not consciously identify and explain but that I still felt.  Eventually I abandoned all spirituality altogether and this went on for at least 5 or more years.  I still made an effort to be kind and considerate and adhere to my moral principles, but I disassociated from any thoughts of God or Jesus, etc.

During an all time low point of my life, I prayed again to please show me a way back to a true relationship with God.  Slowly, over the weeks and months and ultimately years that followed, I began reading spiritual books and having personal life experiences that held profound teachings for me.  It was a long process, but I have come thus far to a point where I am able to be more loving than I ever have before, more understanding of other people, much more conscious of the joys that were always there in my day to day life but which I was unable to see before, and feela much closer relationship to God in my own personal way than I ever have before.  I no longer struggle with lust and guilt because I came to understand WHY casual sex was wrong instead of just "because the Bible sais so".

Now to any fundamental Christian doctrine unless it is one that swears by the "once saved always saved" version of the bible, I am no longer technically a Christian.  There are many ways I have come to believe differently than the Christians, but the most important one is probably that I do not believe Jesus' death attoned for or erased my sins.  Now I know according to your doctrine I was deceived by Satan.  By the way, just for the record, none of this had anything to do with OBEs or thinking I found an easier path to immortality or anything like that.  It happened because I slowly discovered from my own experience that this "unique and personal to me" spiritual path led to better "fruits" that actually manifested in my life and consciousness following the Christian dictrines.

Which brings me to this:

In every external way, my behavior is more loving and ideally "christianlike" than it ever was when I was a Christian.  Internally, I feel closer to "God" in a personal way than I ever have before.  All of my beliefs make sense to me now and feel "right".  Because I have trained my mind to focus, I do not have all the wandering "sinful thoughts" floating through my head all the time.  By the way, have you ever noticed that when you DO have those "sinful thoughts" that they ALWAYS come when your mind is in control instead of being focused or deeply conscious?  You can train the mind to get past that, but the Bible will not teach how to do it in a way that 99.00% of the people who read it will ever come to understand enough to apply successfully to their lives.

If this is supposedly the fruit of being deceived, how can I look at it as BAD?  If I am wrong and God "throws me away" to rot in Hell after I die when I did the very best I know how to be the best and most loving person I can possibly be, just because no matter how hard I tried (and asked for God's help) I could not come to "deeply" understand that Jesus dying for our sins somehow "saves" us...then what does that say?  You might say I am judging God and that is a sin, but I am not: I am questioning the set of BELIEFS that some people have about God that try to paint that picture of what God is like.

Quite frankly, if I am completely wrong and God really is just like that and cannot see or appreciate how hard I try and the good that is in me and the love that I work very hard to bring to the world, and chooses instead to "throw me away" to rot in hell, then I say that a God who would do that would be closer to my idea of a Tyrant and not a loving father.  A loving father does not throw away his child because the child does not or cannot follow in his exact footsteps.  No loving father would condemn his beloved child to rot eternally in agony for ANY reason, but most particularly not because they could not understand and accept one supreme concept that is based on something that happened 2000 years ago and there is NO historically credible evidence to support and which totally defies reason.  You might argue that this central "truth" is supposed to defy reason and that it can unly be understood with the help of the Holy Spirit.  Well I cannot count the number of times and hours I prayed fervently to be helped to understand that with the purest of heart and intentions, but if the God as you believe him to be ever heard me, the answer he gave me was a very firm "NO".

I can only conclude from all of this that either that particular perception of God is not very accurate, or that for some reason God did not want me.  If God just did not want me, then I never had a chance and was going to rot away in hell no matter what I did.  So I choose to live the best life I can and bring as much love into the world as I can learn how to, and then when I die I will try to continue to do so from the realm of spirit.  If God prevents me from doing that and tries to send me to Hell, then I will do whatever feels "right" to me then just as I try to do now...

--Soulfire

[Soulfire]

quote:Originally posted by Allanon

The Bible is the Word of God and is verified by the many prophecies and eye witness accounts of the apostles.

With all due respect, all the apostles were dead hundreds of years before anything resembling the modern Bible was ever created.  Even the oldest original documents known to man from which the modern Bible was translated and interpreted were themselves created long after the Apostles or any hoistorically "direct" witnesses to Christ were dead.  

When you study and learn more about the difficulties of translation from those texts and about the process that was used when the church got together to decide which documents out of the thousands of those available were to be made "canon" and which were decided to be apocrapha and pseudapigrapha (sp?) you will begin to see clearly why the modern Bible's accuracy can be questioned.

The main argument against this is that God would not "allow" any faults in the holy text even through the vast amount of human power struggles and pettiness they were filtered through during the creation of the holy writings.  If this were true, how can we have two different Holy Bibles that cannot even agree on the central concept of EXACTLY what constitutes salvation?

If this is true, how can we have a Catholic church with it's own version of the Holy Bible from which they somehow derive the concept that not all Christians are saved, only the Catholics?  Admittedly in recent years they have quit saying this quite so loudly in quite so abrasive a way, but if you look closely at the practices of the church you will see clear evidence that this is still a quiter aspect of "fundamental" catholic doctrine.  They cannot marry a non-catholic unless they agree to raise the kids catholic (because to do otherwise would condemn the kids to hell) and get married in a catholic church.  All of this comes from an interpretation of a different version of the Holy Bible that protestants use.  If God really wanted to make sure there was NO AMBIGUITY on anything that pertains to the essentials of Salvation, how can you explain this?  Furthermore, this is only one example of MANY that pose similar dilemas.

I'm not here to knock anybody's religion, catholic or otherwise.  If it helps you be who you desire to be in your heart of hearts then it is absolutely right for you.  What I AM saying is that the more you study and understand the history of the bible and the world during that time and the process of it's creation by man, the more you can see enough "holes" in the popular and accepted Christian doctrines not to be able to realistically expect everyone else to believe it exactly the same way you choose to.

--Soulfire

[Makaveli]

quote:God does not outlaw AP. That is the whole purpose of free choice. But you will REAP consequences for communing with demons and fallen spirits. You can fight the Bible all you want but on your death bed you BETTER MAKE SURE YOU ARE SQUARED AWAY WITH CHRIST!!

Where does God say that it has anything to do with demons shouldn't they be in hell?  Would God really give satan and demons that much power over people?    

quote:You New Agers have no standard by which to base your morality. You have a book written by Robert Bruce that is a MAN MADE creation.

Not every projector is a new ager but where do you get this information?  I don't think anyone here denies that astral dynamics is a man made creation and there is nothing wrong with that because it's a great guide and doesn't claim to be anything else but the bible is also a man made creation.  

quote:The Bible is the Word of God and is verified by the many prophecies and eye witness accounts of the apostles.

How are you so sure that apostles accounts are accurate when there is no real evidence for this?  If it was the infalible word of God there wouldn't be so many contradictions and stupid things in it and that is undeniable.  Here is just one of many examples of stupid verses that satan or these demons couldn't have made up because it's right in the bible so is this really the word of God?  

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him, and bring him to the elders at the gate of the town. They shall say to the elders "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of this town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid." Deuteronomy Chapter 21:18

quote:JESUS CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD. NO NEW AGE IDEOLOGY OR MYSTIC RELIGON EVEN CLAIMS THIS. THEY ARE ALL DEAD IN THERE GRAVES. CHRIST STILL LIVES AND WANTS YOU TO LIVE TOO!!! ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS EXCEPT GOD'S PLAN RATHER THAN MAN'S.

Again this is just your personal belief which you can't see past and beliefs do not shape reality.  Your obviously fanatical about this and so convinced so you feel everyone else should believe just as you do but there are so many different beleifs out there with people who feel the same way about their beleifs but who are you to say yours is the only right one?  This my god is better then your God stuff is getting old.    

[Adrian]

Greetings Soulfire,

Excellent posts; thank you very much indeed for sharing your experiences with us.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Allanon]

quote:Ye shall be known by your fruits. The effective christian evangelist, the one who truly GETS Jesus, has a loving glow that can be felt even across the Internet. He/she is kind, does the right thing, and gives loving advice in a loving way. People think, "I want to be peaceful and loving and happy and right with God, how did he/she get that way?" And then they ask questions, and the evangelist responds with his/her story. This is how it's done.

When you see someone walking aound with a snake attached to there ankle do you lovingly try to talk it off of them or do you smash it like the Devil it is.

Remembering me at the time of death close down the doors to the senses and place the mind in the heart, then while absorbed in meditation focus all energy upwards towards the head, repeating in this stae the Divine name the sylable OM you will go forth from the body and attain the supreme goal....

Taken from the Bhagavad Gita this stance if I remembered it correctly directly corresponds to Satan's first lie..... Ye shall shurely not die. All you have to do is direct your energy currents corectly when you die and you will pass on to heaven. Death is an illusion as your real "self" is really what is in control.

The Upanishads and the Gita are DEMON WORSHIP. I pity the soul that beleives he can save Himself from death without the help of Christ.

YOU CANNOT PAY BACK FOR YOUR SINS, ONLY GOD CAN.

PANTHEISTIC, MYSTICAL RELIGONS AND IDEOLOGIES ARE THE TOOLS OF SATAN TO BLIND YOU FROM THE SAVING GRACE OF JESUS CHRIST.

THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY, THE NARROW PATH AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.

[Adrian]

Greetings Allanon,

I really have to caution you about your tone and attitude. These forums exist for open sensible discussions, not bible thumping. If you want to do that I suggest a soap box in the town square.

If you can provide evidence and/or a duly considered basis for your position then please let us hear it. Otherwise I suggest you leave this topic alone.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Anonymous]

Hello Allanon,

If it is the narrow path, why are there so many Christians?  That is not "few."  When they said few, I believe they really meant few.  I also disagree that it is impossible to pay back for sins.

If a man would like to lift a heavy weight, can he do it just because he believes he can?  No, he has to exercise, he has to experience, he has to learn.  It is not so simple and knowledge is the gateway to heaven (or should I say heavens), not beliefs.

Please, go out and look for some experiences.  Give astral projection a chance.  After all, if you listen and succeed and that is really a sin, God is just and will punish me for recommending you to do that.

Right?

Kevin.

[Tab]

...
bwahahahahaha

If nothing else Al, you make for some great entertainment. Do you have any idea the true origins of your beliefs? The egyptians, sumerians, and aryans of the indus all shared similar beliefs due to a common root. These egyptian beliefs were then recycled by Moses (Blavatsky states that the hebrew language itself is nothing but egyptian writing phallicized) and turned into the main Hebrew religion after the exile. It is that as well as the mixing of Hebrew with chaldean beliefs which forms the basis of the Judaism that Jesus was born into, and the religion founded in his name is a combination of that, his teachings, and the popular greek/pagan beliefs of the time. Jump on the logic train and you'll realize that your beliefs are really just those of the ancient Hindus recycled, corrupted, and distorted by exotericism.

As I have said before and will say again, it's a real shame the west is so horribly ignorant of it's beliefs and their roots. Calling such things as the vedas demon worship, it's laughable, but also very sad.

I worship no entity but my own self. If you are asserting that that is demon worship, well, thanks a lot buddy

I call the Bible and Christianity Idol worship, but not because of outrageous claims of Satanic influence as you have, merely because to anthropomorphize god and worship him is to create a spiritual idol out of the pure untainted principle that is the true God.
As far as Satan goes, don't get me started. Do you have any idea where that dogma comes from? Look into it some time, you'll find out that Satan is a bunch of BS.

[goingslow]

Allanon Dont ever go into sales.  Its not really your strong point.  I was thinking of converting until I read your post.

k maybe not.