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Author Topic: Understanding Christianity!  (Read 12194 times)
Jeehad
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« on: March 03, 2007, 19:20:21 »

Christianity

Given the fact that there has never been in the history of the Torah (Old Testament) the religion of God to be named after a Prophet (i.e. Adaminity, Abrahamity, Mosanity, etc.), I hope to explain that Jesus did not preach the religion of Christianity, but a religion that gives all Praise and Worship to The One God.

One of the questions I asked myself as I took an objective (second) look at Christianity was; where did the word Christianity come from and was the word ever mentioned to Jesus? Well, I did not find the word Christianity in the Bible, not even in a Bible dictionary. Specifically, I did not find in the Bible where Jesus called himself a Christian.

The word Christian was first mentioned by a pagan to describe those who followed Jesus. It is mentioned one of three times in the New Testament by a pagan and Jew in Antioch about 43 AD, (Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16) long after Jesus left this earth. To accept the words of pagans as having any value or association with divinity, Jesus or God is contrary to the teachings of all Prophets. 

Jesus prophesied that people would worship him uselessly and believe in doctrines made by men (Matthew 15:9).

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." This verse, Matthew 15:9, is further supported by these words of the Quran:

"And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto men: "Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?" He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower o fall that is hidden and unseen.

Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allah) did command me to say: ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world)." (Al-Ma’idah 5:116-117)

I found that Biblical verses like John 5:30, John 12:49, John 14:28, Isaiah 42:8 and Acts 2:22 support the above mentioned verses of the Quran.

Before leaving the subject of Christianity, I should mention one small point of observation. If Christians are Christ-like, why are they not greeting each other with the words; Peace be with you (Salamu Alaikum), as Jesus did in Luke 24:36. As you may be aware, the greeting from one Muslim to another Muslim is Assalamu Alaikum; a Christ-like saying.
Various Holy Bibles

It is worth mentioning that the Bible references cited might not be exactly as the Bible you are using. There are MANY Bibles on the market that are used by different Christian sects and all of these sects say that their book, though different, is the word of God. Such Bibles are: The Revised Standard Version 1952 & 1971, New American Standard Bible, The Holy Bible; New International Version, the Living Bible, New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures used by Jehovah Witnesses, Roman Catholic Version and the King James Version. A special note: I have not found in any of these Bibles where the "New Testament" calls itself the "New Testament," and nowhere does the "Old Testament" call itself the "Old? Testament." Also, the word "Bible" is unknown within the pages of the Bible.

In addition to the many different Christian sects and Bibles, I have learned that there are also different men, not Prophets, who founded these sects and are using various interpretations of the Bible and/or man-made doctrines as their creed.

I would like to share with you some thoughts that you may not have read or known about the Bible being the word of God. Briefly, let me mention that on September 8, 1957, the Jehovah’s witnesses in their "Awake" magazine carried this startling headline - 50,000 Errors in the Bible. If you ask a Jehovah’s witness about this headline, it may be said that today most of those errors have been eliminated. How many have been eliminated, 5,000? Even if 50 remain, would one attribute those errors to God?

Let me pose another question: if a "Holy" book contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy? Most likely you will say of course not. Let me share with you some conflicting verses both in the Old and New Testaments:

II Samuel 8:4 (vs)
   

II Samuel 8:9-10
   

II Kings 8:26

II Samuel 6:23
   

Genesis 6:3
   

John 5:37

John 5:31
   

I Chronicles 18:4
   

I Chronicles 18:9-10

II Chronicles 22:2
   

II Samuel 21:8
   

Genesis 9:29

John 14:9
   

John 8:14
   

 

Only two contradictions of the New Testament have been mentioned, but others will be referenced when the Trinity, Divinity of Jesus Christ, Divine Sonship of Jesus, Original Sin and Atonement are reviewed.

How could the "inspired words" of God get the genealogy of Jesus incorrect (See Matthew 1:6-16 where it states 26 forefathers up to Prophet David, and Luke 3:23-31 says 41 in number). Or for that matter, give a genealogy to Jesus who had NO father? See II Kings 19:1-37, now read Isaiah 37:1-38. Why is it that the words of these verse are identical? Yet they have been attributed to two different authors, one unknown and the other is Isaiah, who are centuries apart; and yet, the Christians have claimed these books to be inspired by God. 

I looked up the word Easter in the Nelson Bible dictionary and learned that the word "Easter" (as mentioned in Acts 12:4) is a mistranslation of "pascha," the ordinary Greek word for "Passover." As, you know Passover is a Jewish celebration not a Christian holiday. I think human hands, all to human, had played havoc with the Bible.

From the brief points mentioned above, and the fact that Biblical scholars themselves have recognized the human nature and human composition of the Bible (Curt Kuhl, The Old Testament: Its Origin and Composition, PP 47, 51, 52), there should exist in the Christian’s mind some acceptance to the fact that maybe every word of the Bible is not God’s word.

As a side note to this subject, let me mention that some Christians believe that the Bible was dictated to Prophet Muhammad (SAW) by a Christian monk, and that is why some of the biblical accounts are in the Quran. After some research, I found that this could not have happened because there were no Arabic Bible in existence in the 6th century of the Christian era when Muhammad (SAW) lived and preached. Therefore, no Arab, not even Prophet Muhammad (SAW) who was absolutely unlettered and unlearned, would have had the opportunity to examine the written text of the Bible in his own language.

The Gospels

If you read Luke 1:2-3, you will learn, as I did, that Luke (who was not one of the 12 disciples and never met Jesus) said that he himself was not an eyewitness, and the knowledge he gathered was from eyewitnesses, and not as words inspired by God. Incidentally, why does every "Gospel" begin with the introduction According to. Why "according to?" the reason for this is because not a single one of the gospels carries its original author’s autograph! Even the internal evidence of Matthew 9:9 proves that Matthew was not the author of the first Gospel which bears his name:

"And as Jesus passed forth thence, He (Jesus) saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and He (Jesus) saith unto Him (Matthew), follow me (Jesus). And he (Matthew) arose, and followed Him (Jesus)."

Without any stretch of the imagination, one can see that the He’s and the Him’s of the above narration do not refer to Jesus or Matthew as its author, but a third person writing what he saw or heard - a hearsay account and not words inspired by God.

It is worth noting, and well known throughout the religious world, that the choice of the present four "gospels" of the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) were imposed in the Council of Nicea 325 CE for political purposes under the auspices of the pagan Emperor Constantine, and not by Jesus. Constantine’s mind had not been enlightened either by study or by inspiration. He was a pagan, a tyrant and criminal who murdered his son, his wife and thousands of innocent individuals because of his lust for political power. Constantine ratified other decisions in the Nicene Creed such as the decision to call Christ "the Son of God, only begotten of the father."

Literally, hundreds of gospels and religious writings were hidden from the people. Some of those writings were written by Jesus’ disciples, and many of them were eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ actions. The Nicea Council decided to destroy all gospels written in Hebrew, which resulted in the burning of nearly three hundred accounts. If these writings were not more authentic than the four present gospels, they were of equal authenticity. Some of them are still available such as the Gospel of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas which agree with the Quran. The Gospel of Barnabas, until now, is the only eyewitness account of the life and mission of Jesus. Even today, the whole of the Protestant word, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists and other sects and denominations condemn the Roman Catholic version of the Bible because it contains seven "extra" books. The Protestant have bravely expunged seven whole books from their word of God. A few of the outcasts are the Books of Judith, Tobnias, Baruch and Esther.

Concerning Jesus’ teachings of the Gospel (Injeel), the Gospel writers frequently mentioned Jesus preaching the Gospel: Matthew 9:35, Mark 8:35, and Luke 20:1. The word "gospel" is recurrently used in the Bible. However, in the New Testament Greek edition the word Evangeline is used in place of the word gospel, which is translated to mean good news. My question was: what Gospel did Jesus preach? Of the 27 books of the New Testament, only a small fraction can be accepted as the words of Jesus, and only of the 27 books are known to be attributed as the Gospel of Jesus. The remaining 23 were supposedly written by Paul. Muslims do believe that Jesus was given God’s "Good News." However, they do not recognized the present four Gospels as the utterances of Jesus.

The earliest Gospel is that of Mark’s which was written about 60-75 AD. Mark was the son of Barnabas’s sister. Matthew was a tax collector, a minor official who did not travel around with Jesus. Luke’s Gospel was written much later, and in fact, drawn from the same sources as Mark’s and Matthew’s. Luke was Paul’s physician, and like Paul, never met Jesus. By the way, did you know that the names Marks and Luke were not included in the 12 appointed disciples of Jesus as mentioned in Matthew 10:2-4?

Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; the first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

John’s Gospel is from a different source, and was written in about 100 AD. He (John) should not be confused with John, the disciple, who was beheaded by Agrippa I in the year 44 CE long before this gospel was written. It should be accepted as a reliable account of the life of Jesus, and whether it should be included in the scriptures.

Christians, as I once did, boast about the Gospels according to Matthew, according to Mark, according to Luke and according to John. However, if we think about it, there is not a single Gospel according to Jesus himself. According to the preface of the KJV (King James Version) new open Bible study edition, the word "Gospel" was added (see below) to the original titles, "According to John, according to Matthew, according to Luke and according to Mark."

The permission to call "According to" writings the Gospel was not given by Jesus nor by any other divine guidance. These writings; Matthew, Luke, Mark and John, were never originally to be the Gospel. Therefore, Mark 1:1 can not be a true statement that his writing is the gospel of Jesus. 

It should be mentioned that Muslims must believe in all Divine scriptures in their original form, their Prophets and making no distinction between them: The Suhuf (Abraham); Torah (Moses); Psalms (David); Gospel - or the Injeel (Jesus); and the Quran (Muhammad). It is clearly stated in the Quran 3:3 that Allah sent down the Torah and the Gospel. However, none of these scriptures remains in its original form now, except the Quran, which was sent for all mankind everywhere and for all times.

In addition to other reasons why the Quran was sent to mankind, as mentioned in 18:4-5 it was sent to warn the Christians of a terrible punishment from God if they cease not in saying: "Allah has begotten a son."

Muslims sincerely believe that everything Jesus (May the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) preached was from God; the Gospel (Injeel): The "good news" and the guidance of God for the Children of Israel. There is no place mentioned in the present four Gospels that Jesus wrote a single word of his Gospel, nor is it mentioned that Jesus instructed anyone to do so. What passes off, as the "Gospels" today are the works of third party human hands. The Quran 2:79 says:
"And woe to those who write the book with their own hands and they say: "This is from Allah (God)." To traffic with it for a miserable price! So woe to them for what their hands do write, and woe to them for what they earn thereby!" 
Jesus As the Son of God

Is Jesus the Son of God?  Matthew 3:17 could be used by some Christians to support the divine Sonship of Jesus.  If Matthew 3:17, "And Lo a voice for heaven, saying, this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased," is used to support divine Sonship, then there should be no other verse that contradicts or gives equal divine Sonship to another person or persons in the Old or New Testament. However, many references were found in the Old and New Testaments that mentioned someone other than Jesus as having a divine Sonship to God. See Exodus 4:22:

"Israel is my son, even my firstborn." II Samuel 7:14 and I Chronicles 22:10: "...and he shall be my son (Solomon)." Jeremiah 31:9: "...and Ephraim is my firstborn." Also, Psalm 2:7.

The word "Son" must not be accepted literally because God addresses many of his chosen servants as son and sons. The Jews have also claimed Ezra to be the Son of God. The New Testament Greek words used for "son" (pias and paida, which mean servant or son in the sense of servant) are translated as son in reference to Jesus and as servant in reference to others in some translations of the Bible.

Further, the term "Father" as used by Jesus corresponds more closely to the term Rabb, i.e. One who nourishes and sustains, so that in Jesus’ doctrine, God is "Father" – Nourisher and Sustainer – of all men. The New Testament also interprets "son of God" to be mystical: "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 8:14). This mystical suggestion is further supported with Jesus being called the only begotten Son of God.

In Psalm 2:7, the Lord said to David: 

"...Thou art my son: this day have I begotten thee."

Does this mean that God had two sons? Jesus also said that God is not only his Father but also your Father (Matthew 5:45, 48). Luke 3:38 says:

"...Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the Son of God."

Who is mentioned in Hebrews 7:3 as like unto the Son of God? It is Melchisedec, King of Salem, as mentioned in Hebrews 7:1. He (Melchisedec) is more unique than Jesus or Adam. Why is he not preferred to be the Son of God? Moreover, Adam did not have a mother or father, but was the first human being created by God and in the likeness of God to exist in the Garden of Eden and on earth. Wouldn’t this give more rights to Adam to be called the Son of God in its truest meaning?

I would like to share with you an obvious contradiction between John 3:16, Luke 10:25-28 and Matthew 19:16-17. John 3:16 reads: 

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten, Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Now let’s read Luke 10:25-28:

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, what is written in the law? How readest Thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and Thou shalt live.

These verses tell us that the inheritance of eternal life is for anyone who believes and worships no other God, but the One True God. Luke 10:25-28 agrees with Matthew 19:16-17 which says;

"And behold, one came and said to him (Jesus), Good teacher, what good things shall I do that I may have eternal life? So he (Jesus) said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? – No one is good but One that is, God. But if you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments."

There is no commandment that says to worship Jesus, but there that tells us to worship God alone.

In Luke 4:41, Jesus refused to be called the Son of God by demons. Do you think that Jesus would rebuke the demons, or anyone else for that matter, for telling the truth? Unquestionably, no! Jesus rebuked the demons because they were saying something false by calling him the Son of God. Also, if the demons knew that Jesus was the Christ, for Jesus to shut them up because they called him the Christ is a contradiction to Jesus’ mission.

In Luke 9:20 & 21, Jesus said unto his disciples:

"But who say ye that I am? Peter answered saying, "The Christ of God, and Jesus straightly charged them and commanded them to tell no man that thing."

Furthermore, verses like John 3:2, John 6:14, John 7:40, Matthew 21:11, Luke 7:16 and 24:19 confirm that Jesus accepted the title of teacher, Prophet and called himself the son of man in Matthew 8:20, 12:40, 17:9 & 12, 26:24, Luke 9:26, 22:48, 22:69, and 24:7. The most conclusive verse that says Jesus is the son (servant) of man is Mark 14:26 where Jesus is mentioning the Day of Reckoning. Jesus specifically said we would see the son of man, not the Son of God, sitting in the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

The act of begetting is a physical act and such act is against God’s nature. The Qur’an 19:35 says:
 

"It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is." (Maryam  19:35)

The teachings of Jesus as the Son of God were not preached by Jesus nor accepted by Jesus, but were taught by Paul as supported in Acts 9:20:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God."

Did Jesus ever claim to be God or say, "Here am I, your God, worship me"? The answer is no. For there is no single, unequivocal statement in the Bible whereby Jesus himself declares, "I am God, therefore worship me." Virtually all of the more than two thousand verses of the epistles of Paul are his own fabrications to include Romans 9:5 that says, depending upon which Bible you read:

"...Christ came, who is overall, the eternally blessed God."

Christians should know that Paul himself mentions his own gospel, not Jesus, in his epistle to the Romans when he says in Romans 2:16:

"In the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

In face, the Pauline epistle to the Romans serves as the foundation of today’s Christianity. Thus, it is the Christians whose efforts will be wasted in this life as they think they were acquiring good by their works when they attribute partners to God, as stated in Chapter 18:103-106 of the Qur’an:
 

"Say: Shall we tell you of those who lost most in respect of their deeds? Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?" they are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter): vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of judgment, give them any weight. That is their reward, Hell; because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest.
(Al-Kahf 18:103-106)

Indeed, it is so strange and ironic, knowing that none of Paul’s epistle to the Romans, more than 430 verses, were ever formulated by Jesus. Paul should have made direct reference to the pristine teachings of Jesus, if only the former claim for apostleship by divine inspiration was indeed true. Instead, large parts of his epistles’ Biblical quotations (notably those in the Epistle to the Romans) were taken from the Old Testament – Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Ezekiel and Hosea. His epistles were, indeed a product of tedious efforts, but that does not make Paul far better than any of the other men who authored the Bible, nor does it make him a Prophet. 

Other practices that were adopted under Paul included the following: the Roman sun-day as the Christian Sabbath; the traditional birthday of the Sun-god as the birthday of Jesus; the emblem of the sun-god (the cross of light) to be the emblem of Christians; and, the incorporation of all the ceremonies which were performed at the Sun-god’s birthday celebrations.

As I come to a close concerning the position of Christ, I would like to ask my Christian reader bow down and pray earnestly to God and ask Him to invoke His curse on you, your wife, your sons, and your daughters if what you believe about Christ (Christ is God, Son of God or part of a trinity of God) are false. Likewise, I have learned that if you asked a Muslim to earnestly pray to God to invoke His curse on him, his wife, his sons, and his daughters if what he is saying about Christ (Prophet, Messenger of God, A Word from God) are false, the Muslims are firm in their faith knowing that Christ is not God, nor the Son of God and nor part of a trinity of God. This exercise of asking God to invoke His curse on you and your family may sound a bit cruel, but it would prove two points: (1) you would know that you are on the wrong path; and, (2) it would put you on the right path.
The Crucifixion and Atonement

A very significant event in the Christian doctrine is the Crucifixion of Jesus. Before talking about the many controversies surrounding the Crucifixion, it should be mentioned that it was a gospel of Paul’s which professed the Crucifixion/Resurrection of Jesus (II Timothy 2:Cool:

"Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel."

In addition, the gospel of the resurrection in Mark 16:9-20 was already removed from the text by gospel writers in the 1952 edition of the Revised Standard Version and then, for some reasons, restored in the 1971 edition. In many Bibles, if not removed, it is printed in small print or between two brackets and with commentary (See the Revised Standard Version, New American Bible and New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures).

The traditional biblical account of Jesus’ Crucifixion is that he was arrested and crucified by the orders and plans of the chief priest and Jewish elders. This account was denied in the 1960’s by the highest Catholic Christian authority, the Pope. He issued a statement in which he said the Jews had nothing to do with Jesus’ Crucifixion.

Did any one of the disciples or the writers of the Gospel see the Crucifixion or the Resurrection? No! In Mark 14:50, it says the disciples forsook Jesus and fled. Even Peter forsook Jesus after the cock crowed three times as Jesus foretold:

(Matthew 26:75) And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

The most likely persons whom may have witnessed this moment in Jesus’ life were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, the mother of Zebedee’s children and other women (Matthew 27:55-56). However, there is no statement or account in the Gospels from those women as to what they saw or heard.

The disciple(s) found the sepulchre where Jesus was laid down, empty, and made the conclusion that he was resurrected because the disciples and other witnesses saw him alive after the alleged Crucifixion. Nobody saw the moment he was resurrected. Jesus himself stated that he did not die on the cross in Luke 24:36-41, as explained in the following paragraphs.

Early Sunday morning, Mary Magdalene went to the sepulchre, which was empty. She saw somebody standing who looked like a gardener. She recognized him after a conversation to be Jesus and wanted to touch him. Jesus said (John 20:17):

"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father..."

Now read Luke 24:36-41:

"And as they (disciples) thus spoke, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are you troubled? And why so thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me end see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of boiled fish and of a honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them."

Does a spiritual or dead body have a need to eat food? Jesus eating of food was to prove to the disciples that he was not a spirit, but rather, he was still alive and not dead.

Jesus being alive and not dead is further supported in his own prophecy (Matthew 12:40):

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Did Jesus fulfill this miracle? Christians would say "yes," because Jesus died and rose three days later according to Luke 24:36 and Matthew 20:19, to name a few verses. However, in line with the miracle of Jonah and according to the Bible, Jesus only spent one day and two nights in the sepulchre, and not three days and three nights as he prophesied.

Jesus was put in the sepulchre just before sunset on Friday (Good Friday) and was found missing before sunrise on Sunday (Easter). If we were to s-t-r-e-t-c-h the time frame a bit, one may say that Jesus spent three days in the earth, but there is no way and I repeat, no way, that Jesus spent three nights in the earth. We must not forget that the Gospels are explicit in telling us that it was "before sunrise" on Sunday morning that Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus and found it empty.

Consequently, there are some inconsistencies as to whether Jesus fulfilled his own prophecy. Whether he was actually crucified, or if the day (Good Friday) of his alleged Crucifixion is wrong. Another significant point to mention is that Jonah was alive in the belly of the whale. The Christians says, Jesus was dead in the belly of the earth/tomb, and this contradicts Jesus’ own prophecy. Jesus said (Luke 11:30):

"As Jonah was...so shall the Son of man be."

If Jonah was alive, so was Jesus.

One critical event that took place before the alleged Crucifixion was the prayer of Jesus to God for help. Luke 22:42:

"Saying Father if thou be willing, remove this cup (of death) from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine be done." 

Jesus’ prayer not to die on the cross was accepted by God according to Luke 22:43 and Hebrews 5:7. Therefore, if all of Jesus’ prayer were accepted by God, including not to die on the cross, how could he have died on the cross?

In Matthew 27:46, it states that while Jesus was on the cross, he said:

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani (My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?).

If Jesus said these words, it represents a blatant declaration of disbelief according to all theological authorities. This is a great insult as such words could only come from an unbeliever in God. Further, it is incredible that such words should come from a Prophet of God, because God never breaks His promise and His Prophets never complained against His promise, especially when the Prophet’s mission is understood. It could be said that whoever relates that this statement was said by a Prophet (Jesus), is a disbeliever.

Muslims believe, as the Qur’an states, Jesus was not crucified. It was the intention of his enemies to put him to death on the cross, but Allah saved him from their plot. Qur’an 4:157:

"That they (Jews) said boasting, "We killed Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah, but they (Jews) killed him not, nor crucified him..."

(An Nisa 4:157)
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Jeehad
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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2007, 19:26:09 »

contradictions:

Should we kill?

    * Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
    * Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."

      vs.

    * Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
    * I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
    * I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and butt. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
    * Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
    * Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."

      For a discussion of the defense that the Commandments prohibit only murder, see "Murder, He Wrote", chapter 27 (Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist).

Should we tell lies?

    * Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
    * Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."

      vs.

    * I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
    * II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

      Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

Should we steal?

    * Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."
    * Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."

      vs.

    * Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."
    * Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians."
    * Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."

      I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.

Shall we keep the sabbath?

    * Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy."
    * Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."
    * Numbers 15:32,36 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. . . . And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."

      vs.

    * Isaiah 1:13 "The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity."
    * John 5:16 "And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day."
    * Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."

Shall we make graven images?

    * Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."
    * Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone."
    * Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image."

      vs.

    * Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them."
    * I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"

Are we saved through works?

    * Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
    * Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."
    * Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."

      vs.

    * James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
    * Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven."

      The common defense here is that "we are saved by faith and works." But Paul said "not of works."

Should good works be seen?

    * Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works."
    * I Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that . . . they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."

      vs.

    * Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them . . . that thine alms may be in secret."
    * Matthew 23:3,5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works. . . . all their works they do for to be seen of men."

Should we own slaves?

    * Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."
    * Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."
    * Exodus 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."
    * Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."
    * Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."
    * Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."

      vs.

    * Isaiah 58:6 "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke."
    * Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

      Pro-slavery bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here.

Does God change his mind?

    * Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
    * Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
    * Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
    * James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

      vs.

    * Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
    * Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
    * Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

      See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

      See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he was playing with Abraham's hopes for mercy--he destroyed the city anyway.)

Are we punished for our parents' sins?

    * Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)
    * Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
    * I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, . . ."

      vs.

    * Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."
    * Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Is God good or evil?

    * Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
    * Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."

      vs.

    * Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7.
    * Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
    * Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
    * Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."

Does God tempt people?

    * James 1:13 "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

      vs.

    * Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."

Is God peaceable?

    * Romans 15:33 "The God of peace."
    * Isaiah 2:4 ". . . and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

      vs.

    * Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war."
    * Joel 3:9-10 "Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."

Was Jesus peaceable?

    * John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you."
    * Acts 10:36 "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ."
    * Luke 2:14 " . . . on earth peace, good will toward men."

      vs.

    * Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."
    * Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, . . . he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Was Jesus trustworthy?

    * John 8:14 "Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true."

      vs.

    * John 5:31 "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."

      "Record" and "witness" in the above verses are the same Greek word (martyria).

Shall we call people names?

    * Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire." [Jesus speaking]

      vs.

    * Matthew 23:17 "Ye fools and blind." [Jesus speaking]
    * Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

Has anyone seen God?

    * John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."
    * Exodus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
    * John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God [Jesus], he hath seen the Father."
    * I John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time."

      vs.

    * Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face."
    * Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."
    * Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."
    * Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."

How many Gods are there?

    * Deuteronomy 6:4 "The Lord our God is one Lord."

      vs.

    * Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image."
    * Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil."
    * I John 5:7 "And there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

      It does no good to claim that "Let us" is the magisterial "we." Such usage implies inclusivity of all authorities under a king's leadership. Invoking the Trinity solves nothing because such an idea is more contradictory than the problem it attempts to solve.

Are we all sinners?

    * Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
    * Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."
    * Psalm 14:3 "There is none that doeth good, no, not one."

      vs.

    * Job 1:1 "There was a man . . . who name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright."
    * Genesis 7:1 "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."
    * Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

How old was Ahaziah?

    * II Kings 8:26 "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

      vs.

    * II Chronicles 22:2 "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

Should we swear an oath?

    * Numbers 30:2 "If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath . . . he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth."
    * Genesis 21:22-24,31 " . . . swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me . . . And Abraham said, I will swear. . . . Wherefore he called that place Beersheba ["well of the oath"]; because there they sware both of them."
    * Hebrews 6:13-17 "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself . . . for men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath."

      See also Genesis 22:15-19, Genesis 31:53, and Judges 11:30-39.

      vs.

    * Matthew 5:34-37 "But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven . . . nor by the earth . . . . Neither shalt thou swear by thy head . . . . But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."
    * James 5:12 ". . . swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."

When was Jesus crucified?

    * Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour, and they crucified him."

      vs.

    * John 19:14-15 "And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out . . . crucify him."

      It is an ad hoc defense to claim that there are two methods of reckoning time here. It has never been shown that this is the case.

Shall we obey the law?

    * I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourself to every ordinance of man . . . to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors."
    * Matthew 22:21 "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's." See also Romans 13:1,7 and Titus 3:1.

      vs.

    * Acts 5:29 "We ought to obey God rather then men."

How many animals on the ark?

    * Genesis 6:19 "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark."
    * Genesis 7:8-9 "Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah."
    * Genesis 7:15 "And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life."

      vs.

    * Genesis 7:2 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female."

Were women and men created equal?

    * Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

      vs.

    * Genesis 2:18,23 "And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. . . . And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

Were trees created before humans?

    * Genesis 1:12-31 "And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: . . . And the evening and the morning were the third day. . . . And God said, Let us make man in our image . . . And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

      vs.

    * Genesis 2:5-9 "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. .Ę.ĘAnd the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground . . . And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food."

Did Michal have children?

    * II Samuel 6:23 "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death."

      vs.

    * II Samuel 21:8 "But the king took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul."

How many stalls did Solomon have?

    * I Kings 4:26 "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."

      vs.

    * II Chronicles 9:25 "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."

Did Paul's men hear a voice?

    * Acts 9:7 "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."

      vs.

    * Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

      (For more detail on this contradiction, with a linguistic analysis of the Greek words, see "Did Paul's Men Hear A Voice?" by Dan Barker, published in the The Skeptical Review, 1994 #1)

Is God omnipotent?

    * Jeremiah 32:27 "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
    * Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

      vs.

    * Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

Does God live in light?

    * I Timothy 6:15-16 " . . . the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach . . ."
    * James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
    * John 12:35 "Then Jesus saith unto them, . . . he that walketh in darkness knoweth not wither he goeth."
    * Job 18:18 "He [the wicked] shall be driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world."
    * Daniel 2:22 "He [God] knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him." See also Psalm 143:3, II Corinthians 6:14, and Hebrews 12:18-22.

      vs.

    * I Kings 8:12 "Then spake Solomon, The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness." (Repeated in II Chronicles 6:1)
    * II Samuel 22:12 "And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies."
    * Psalm 18:11 "He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies."
    * Psalm 97:1-2 "The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice . . . clouds and darkness are round about him."

Does God accept human sacrifice?

    * Deuteronomy 12:31 "Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods."

      vs.

    * Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
    * Exodus 22:29 "For thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors; the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me."
    * Judges 11:30-39 "And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hand, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon . . . and the Lord delivered them into his hands. . . . And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: . . . And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed."
    * II Samuel 21:8-14 "But the king [David] took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal . . . and he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the Lord: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest . . . And after that God was intreated for the land."
    * Hebrews 10:10-12 " . . . we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ . . . But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God."
    * I Corinthians 5:7 " . . . For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."

Who was Joseph's father?

    * Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."

      vs.

    * Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."
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The Astral Pulse
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2007, 19:26:09 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Jeehad
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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2007, 02:39:57 »

Dont ignore this mustardseed.
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Ryuji
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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2007, 18:50:55 »

Jeehad. you take special time off during the day for this ? hehe j/k

heres my one similiar

Christian Bible - nothing but the truth ?
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=67255
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Mustardseed
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« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2007, 04:37:17 »

Dear Jeehad
You just asked me to comment on 123 verses in the bible. You are being unreasonable. Do try to narrow down your questions ok. Thanks

Regards Mustardseed
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Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!
The Astral Pulse
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2007, 04:37:17 »



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Jeehad
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« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2007, 22:14:45 »

I replied to almost 50 of your so called Quran injunctions at least show effort to comment on some shall you? Answer some if you can!

1-  Mark 10:18 Jesus said “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

2-  John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

3-  John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"

4-  Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."


The Above verses clearly show that JESUS WAS NOT GOD BUT RATHER he was a human being like you and I. The bible teaches you to worship God alone, NOT JESUS! This mentality of the trinity and even the divinity of Jesus was a myth created by the Christian church and no such thing of this is in the bible. Tell me, where does Jesus ever say I AM GOD WORSHIP ME? You may claim that "son of god" would refer to Jesus as the literal divine son? But in Hebrew the word for son is translated as pias or piadas which can also mean "servant" or "servants." So in retrospect the Hebrew translation for "Son" is servant claiming that Jesus indeed was A SERVANT OF GOD a CREATURE OF GOD! Not only that but in various passages we bear witness the mortality of Jesus as a human! He ate slept drank taught LIKE A HUMAN! He had errors LIKE A HUMAN! IF he was God then surely the bible would have projected him as a  perfect being for Gods knowledge is perfect and unsustainable! MY BIGGEST problem with the bible is it has shown corruption within history!! History tells us that the bible was not compiled until hundreds of years after the Death of Jesus Christ.  How can you expect man to remember such a word? Especially when the romans at the time persecuted "Christians" !! Also, through historical documents it shows that even early Christians rejected the trinity! Many of these lies were created by THE CHURCH as a way to rule people.  On the topic of the OT, did you know that during the decent of the injeel(bible) early Christians actually considered themselves among the Jews whom worshiped and believed in Yahwh! Believed in the OT fully!!! The Churches council later on realized the countless brutality and the denial of moral concepts that they had to "selectively choose" what they believed or not!


Abrogation in the bible?
http://www.answering-christianity.com/abrogation_in_bible.htm
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« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2007, 22:19:26 »

The truth about Christianity and Jesus from the Noble Quran:

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).

"...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).

"O you who believe! Be helpers of God -- as Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, 'Who will be my helpers in (the work of) God?' Said the disciples, 'We are God's helpers!' Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved. But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed" (61:14).

"If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (5:66).

"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171).

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is but a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the Truth! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him! (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)" (9:30-31).
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Mustardseed
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« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2007, 23:08:12 »

I replied to almost 50 of your so called Quran injunctions at least show effort to comment on some shall you? Answer some if you can!

1-  Mark 10:18 Jesus said “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

2-  John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

3-  John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"

4-  Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."


The Above verses clearly show that JESUS WAS NOT GOD BUT RATHER he was a human being like you and I. The bible teaches you to worship God alone, NOT JESUS! This mentality of the trinity and even the divinity of Jesus was a myth created by the Christian church and no such thing of this is in the bible. Tell me, where does Jesus ever say I AM GOD WORSHIP ME? You may claim that "son of god" would refer to Jesus as the literal divine son? But in Hebrew the word for son is translated as pias or piadas which can also mean "servant" or "servants." So in retrospect the Hebrew translation for "Son" is servant claiming that Jesus indeed was A SERVANT OF GOD a CREATURE OF GOD! Not only that but in various passages we bear witness the mortality of Jesus as a human! He ate slept drank taught LIKE A HUMAN! He had errors LIKE A HUMAN! IF he was God then surely the bible would have projected him as a  perfect being for Gods knowledge is perfect and unsustainable! MY BIGGEST problem with the bible is it has shown corruption within history!! History tells us that the bible was not compiled until hundreds of years after the Death of Jesus Christ.  How can you expect man to remember such a word? Especially when the romans at the time persecuted "Christians" !! Also, through historical documents it shows that even early Christians rejected the trinity! Many of these lies were created by THE CHURCH as a way to rule people.  On the topic of the OT, did you know that during the decent of the injeel(bible) early Christians actually considered themselves among the Jews whom worshiped and believed in Yahwh! Believed in the OT fully!!! The Churches council later on realized the countless brutality and the denial of moral concepts that they had to "selectively choose" what they believed or not!


OK I shall try but I dont think you will like my answer. It all comes down to one simple point.

Most of the people you debate with, are fundementalist Christians, they believe that every word in the bible is to be taken literally. This appeals tremendously to Muslims (as they are so used to splitting hairs themselves) the 2 parties  engage in an ever more heated debate COMPARING Christianity with Islam, and the Bible with the Koran, in a literal sense.

My faith in Jesus does not come from a book per se. While it was the Bible that made me come to consider God as a real power today, it was a personal connecting with Jesus, (who I believe is a real entity in the Spirit world or Astral plane if you will), that changed my life and continues to give me faith.

This means that I do not have the answers to the riddles you give me, I do not need to prove anything to you, and I do not need to have them to believe myself. This is also the case for most other Christians in the world today. We all believe in the Bible to various degrees but we do not mind each other. The basics is enough for a Christian, and the basic is that God (Jesus) is alive and well, and still is the same as he was. It is not by faith in the word ( alfabetic letters) written in the Bible that we draw our strenght to live our lives but by faith in the Word of God. It is a metaphor for what we believe to be the truth. That God sent a person into the world that had no need of the Law to stay pure. It was not a son as in a literal son of a human but a creature who was a picture of what a perfect man would be.

While I believe that he was a man and walked the earth I do not know if all that was said about him is correct. There is a lot of debate going on in the Christian community, as to how literal one should believe the Bible to be. It can be argued that it is hearsay so to speak, but it does not matter to me because I have met the Spirit of God. I have met Jesus so to speak and talk to Him every day.

While I understand that this is a confusing and contradictory belief to you, who adhere to the Koran, it is nevertheless the way most Christians believe.

So where does that leave us. Well we could examine our different beliefs on an individual as well as a cultural basis, what the fruit of our 2 religions are. How do they make us behave. Being a Christian is a very personal thing it is a struggle against self that is the main goal. Pride ego selfish gratification and human emotions etc are what we fight against. We believe that we should love when we are not loved in return but abused, etc. In some ways I wish I was a Muslim, it is far easier to wage Jihad, and suits my basic human instincts much better. An eye for an eye is and fighting back when I am wronged, taking up arms in defence of my religion would be a relief from the battle I face daily, but I can't. The reason is that I know deep inside that my battle is not against flesh and blood humans in other words, because they are all just like me. My battle is against darkness spiritual wickedness on the astral planes and against the spiritual entities who rule the world through preying on humans through greed jealousy, hatred etc.

So that brings us to your questions above. I will paste them here

1-  Mark 10:18 Jesus said “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

2-  John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

3-  John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"

4-  Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

I think that what Jesus was trying to do was to show us that the reality in not this life. The only reality is to be found in the Spirit world, ie the Astral dimensions. He was showing the people in his day that He was only a picture of God, and that his body before the ressurection was human. Jesus spoke yes but the Power to heal strenghten and so on was not generated in the physical realm, it was generated in the spiritual realm, and He was only a conduit.

What we as Christians worship was not the body of Jesus but the power that manifested itself through Him, which is God.

The Bible says "he that loves knows God for God is love", and Jesus was a manifestation of that love.

Culturally speaking this beliefsystem has prompted Christians all over the world to do the things they do. Doctors and teachers as well as social workers are emulating that man Jesus, and are actually drawing on the same power that He did. I am sure that you cannot be unaware of the fact that there are lots of Christians worldwide who sacrifice their own life to bring healing and aid to people in need.

 The Bible has to be understood in the light of this mission to the world. I could at this time ask you about Islam, but maybe we should examine Islam in the other thread.

I hope this helps

Regards Mustardseed
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« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2007, 04:12:38 »

How ridiculous is that! You are a Christian but yet do not believe in the bible literally? Doesn't that seem a little absurd? If Christianity is truth then surely Gods true scripture(the bible) would also have been truth! God wouldn't let his word be altered! The truth comes into the final form, the form of Islam. Where God commands YOU to worship God alone. The God of the Jews Christians and Muslims, The God of Abraham(pbuh). For the translation of the verses... where did you pull that out of... Astral planes.. CLEARLY Jesus was talking about turning worship to God. CLEARLY Jesus was saying that GOD IS ONE. Where does Jesus say that he is the manifestation of God? See, this is a concept that was MADE UP! Jesus is a man, Jesus is indeed a loving man whom holds attributes of piety. Why is it so hard for you to accept the words of your own book? Of your own law and gospel? The word of your OWN GOSPEL agrees with Islam! The only thing which disagrees with my words is Christianity(not the bible)! 


The difference between the Quran and the bible is that the Quran is a book of logic. All aspects of it seems logical in modern traditions laws and even logical in the eyes of modern science. Although it was brought down to Muhammad 1400 years ago, it still remains valid and unchanged AND uncontradictory until this day.  The difference between the Quran and the bible is that the biblical question ares and errors which I have posed still remain unsolved and typical Christians usually say " i have no idea..... I think Jesus knows though." Every so called "error" you shall or might propose is explained thoroughly and simply taken out of context. This is why I am a profound and loyal Muslim my brother. This is Why people are turning to Islam my brother.I could never deny a scripture which gives out wisdom logic and knowledge. I ask you my brother please! Open up the holy Quran and read it. Your contradictions and claims are nothing more then lies if you can't even explain it!

Peace be with you




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« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2007, 06:36:40 »

Dear Jeehad
Well I was right  grin you really dont get it and my post went over your head. All you could say was "absurd" and then revert back into your "holier than though" rethoric rolleyes. This is my point exactly.

Your presence on this forum is not to talk or try to understand anyone, it is ONLY to promote and preach your religion and hopefully gain converts.

It does seem to be a futile exchange of words.

Not only are you so full of your own rightness and superiourity, but you you are so mindnumbingly unaware of what is going on in the world around you. Your youthful delight in a fight and wanting to get on the palisades are very disheartening, but you are the epitome of the Islamic probaganda machine. People are not coming to Islam myt "brother" Islam is merely succeding in turning many poor and uneducated muslims into fanatics. In western countries where muslims immigrants generally are unable to become succesfull or whealthy, due to their Islamic backwardness, some are also turning to radicalism in an effort to be succesfull at something. Overall folks are not embracing islam but are rejecting it as a violent and hostile religion bent on destroying western values.

You believe everything you are told by your religious leaders and since you are not very educated but certainly very loyal, you repeat their diatribes on and on, nonstop even pretending that they are your words so you can be one of them a "Muslim scholar". The latest article on 10 misunderstandings of Islam is not your words but a essay by a Muslim girl Huma Ahmad from her web page www.jannah.org Yet you do not give her credit but want to peddle it off as your original "deeep thinking". This is how you have succeeded in hijacking the entire process, often posting huge and impossible to answer posts. I really truly wonder if you have any original thought in your mind, and I am afraid you dont grin.

You will never understand Christianity, until you truly have a desire to. Like so many young people you need a religion you an touch and feel and inwhich you can appear powerfull and strong. In my opinion you and young people like you are the prime target for fundementalism and all you need to be ripe is a few years more of indoctrination and frustration with the lack of succes of Islam that is bound to happen. Then comes the question ......... When will you yourself embrace the little Jihad. 


 

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« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2007, 03:09:18 »

What a bold bold bold statement you have just made. It is also rather funny how speechless you are when it comes to discussing or even explaining your own religion. If I am lost in the lights of ignorance then why not enlighten me with Christianity? For it is a missionary religion? And if your SOOOO learned in your own practice then why not clear up such misconceptions? Do you want me to put my words in your own mouth? The answer which I am looking for is you simply cannot argue logic.  You always try to make claims of how "brain washed" I am but still you fail to realize that in the mosques I visit, THEY PROMOTE US TO READ THE BIBLE! In fact, I have taken my time and efforts to research many world religions before coming to my conclusion of la elaha ila lah muhammad al rasul allah! Are you foolish? Islam is considered the fastest growing religion in the world, not by nativity but rather by reversions/ People are converting to Islam at a rapid rate, even white americans such as yourself! Don't tell me there all falling for so called "sheikhs" brainwashing them. Don't tell me there all "brainwashed." They are simply people seeking truth in there life. simply people wanting to exit the age of materialism projected by Christianity.

"Like so many young people you need a religion you an touch and feel and inwhich you can appear powerful and strong."

What a great statement. Because I completely agree! I do not believe faith alone is key for that is blind. Logic and faith must intermingle within a religious or spiritual belief. Why believe in something that argues science? Logic?Nature?Mathematics? Why argue something which can easily be proven false? Your calling me a child? Claim that I cannot understand such things because of my age? But yet I've disproven what you cannot defend? I've explained what you do not know of!  How about you prove your statement to me by at least showing courage to defend yourself? Jihad? lol WOW You are so brainwashed by western media. How about you go back it watching the idiot box, religion is no place for a person such as yourself. How about you go fulfill your own "patriotic" duties and come rape, kill slaughter Iraqi children.






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« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2007, 22:32:36 »

woh woh woh guys. I'm sure we all love the debates (I know I do), but lets not get aggro about it please.
Personally, I prefer reading the bible symbolically, as opposed to literally. And I don't know about the Quran because I haven't read enough of it so I'm not going to judge.

I think we're all agreed the main message is that God is One, and to love him as we love our brothers and sisters. Can't we just leave it at that without bickering over whos got the biggest holy book. If your book helps you to love God, then are we prepared to lay aside any particular faults that we as limited human beings may find within the words of those who came before us? The message is of peace and love. And that is what we should emulate. In my mind, I think holy scriptures are a tool for us, to help us to grow in consciousness and understanding, and as Jesus said, "greater things than I shall you do" (or something like that).
We apply ethics, find our own resonance within our hearts. And if it resonates, how can one another say that one way is the right or only way? We're all at different stages in our spiritual growth, and as long as we're trying to reach up and out with understanding rather than superiority, or boggling over the little details, we'll make a lot more progress.

Just a thought. My own two cents.
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« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2007, 03:12:19 »

Hello Gzaod I agree with your message,I agree that we can all get along peacefully. I agree that debating eachother is not the answer. I agree that we have more similarities then difference. But I disagree with the message of Christianity! Although you must understand the root cause of this discussive debate. The bible is a peaceful and beautiful scripture! Although the interpretation the Christian church is giving the bible is completely false! The ideology of Jesus being God almighty is completely wrong! I ask where on earth does the bible say such a thing? Where does Jesus blatantly says he is God? The Quran says that Jesus was a man, a teacher, a noble prophet of the One true God. MustardSeed has been proposing claims about Islam which I have easily refuted! but he chooses to ignore the claims which I shall make about Christianity... so be it mustardseed!
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« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2007, 03:34:49 »

Hello Gzaod I agree with your message,I agree that we can all get along peacefully. I agree that debating eachother is not the answer. I agree that we have more similarities then difference. But I disagree with the message of Christianity! Although you must understand the root cause of this discussive debate. The bible is a peaceful and beautiful scripture! Although the interpretation the Christian church is giving the bible is completely false! The ideology of Jesus being God almighty is completely wrong! I ask where on earth does the bible say such a thing? Where does Jesus blatantly says he is God? The Quran says that Jesus was a man, a teacher, a noble prophet of the One true God. MustardSeed has been proposing claims about Islam which I have easily refuted! but he chooses to ignore the claims which I shall make about Christianity... so be it mustardseed!

 grin you are such a smooth talker Jeehad, you have refuted nothing, Islam rules the mideast, and the result is chaos. Oppression violence pride and religious fanatasism , and you dont even see it. Just like a wind up parrot you keep repeating .....we are peaceful people .....we dont oppress women..... Islam is a non violent religion on and on and on you go.  rolleyes

What country do you live in? does Islam rule there is Sharia in effect.

You live in a dreamworld Neo
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« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2007, 03:40:50 »

You know whats funny? How theres no such thing as a sharia law in any Muslim country, if there truly was an Islamic government system then we would have a caliphate and I'm sure you realize that its non existent!! Your so called "American Democracy" is ruling our nations but yet! Do you see any results in that? Do you see any change on the democracy in my nations? ! Your looking at 2 countries WHICH YOUR NATION F-ED UP and portraying it as the Muslim world. Look at America! A Christian nation! But yet rape, oppression,murder IS EVEN WORSE THEN ANY MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRY!! How about you compare the rape rate? The Murder rate? Why don't you disprove my claims? Why don't you prove me wrong? Refute my rebuttals?
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« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2007, 04:52:01 »

You know whats funny? How theres no such thing as a sharia law in any Muslim country, if there truly was an Islamic government system then we would have a caliphate and I'm sure you realize that its non existent!! Your so called "American Democracy" is ruling our nations but yet! Do you see any results in that? Do you see any change on the democracy in my nations? ! Your looking at 2 countries WHICH YOUR NATION F-ED UP and portraying it as the Muslim world. Look at America! A Christian nation! But yet rape, oppression,murder IS EVEN WORSE THEN ANY MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRY!! How about you compare the rape rate? The Murder rate? Why don't you disprove my claims? Why don't you prove me wrong? Refute my rebuttals?

Rape  rate in my country is very big that is true here is why

According to a new study from the Crime Prevention Council, Brĺ, it is four times more likely that a known rapist is born abroad, compared to persons born in Sweden. Resident aliens from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominate the group of rape suspects. According to these statistics, almost half of all perpetrators are immigrants. In Norway and Denmark, we know that non-Western immigrants, which frequently means Muslims, are grossly overrepresented on rape statistics. In Oslo, Norway, immigrants were involved two out of three rape charges in 2001. The numbers in Denmark were the same, and even higher in the city of Copenhagen with three out of four rape charges. Sweden has a larger immigrant, including Muslim, population than any other country in northern Europe. The numbers there are likely to be at least as bad as with its Scandinavian neighbors. The actual number is thus probably even higher than what the authorities are reporting now, as it doesn't include second generation immigrants. Lawyer Ann Christine Hjelm, who has investigated violent crimes in Svea high court, found that 85 per cent of the convicted rapists were born on foreign soil or by foreign parents.

Full article here:

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/003180.html

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/WWMD.htm

As for murder, ................are you kiddin'

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« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2007, 05:07:50 »

hahaha are you kidding me? Why don't you compare these numbers to Islamic countries where the population of Muslims is triple the rate in the Us Denmark Scandinavia and wherever you may think of! According to your logic muslims become angry rapers when they enter into a new country? Orr maybe! According to your logic all those priests and pastors who eventually lead to touching little children are Muslim arn't they?
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« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2007, 20:27:37 »

So generally, what I think the message is here is that the alteration of Jesus' teachings caused an incorrect interpretation of religion which continues to this day, and is mostly the cause or justification for the US gettin on its high horse and eventually trying to take over the world. Gotta start somewhere and that somewhere is oil hmmmm. Secondly, the message is also that there are certain interpretations of the Quran which also, blatantly leads to a systematic identification of the 'other' as hostile, Jihad neccessary for 'believers', and Crusades neccessary for 'Believers'.

Ultimately, I love the books but hate the organisation.

I think thats what we need to understand. It's not the books that are in any way wrong, its mankind imposing itself on it to use it for its own ends. Ego all the way.

I think without the insitutions, if everybody had their books, and prayed in the way they wanted to, without being told that they have to do this or do that in the name of their religion or God, (which is rediculous anyway because every scripture is about the one God (and his/her many forms) we would have a lot less trouble in the world. And a lot less agro in this forum.  smiley

In my mind, Jeehad, Jesus was right, God almighty in the flesh. Just as many of us are, and have the potential to show it. Just gotta work on those chakras.
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« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2007, 03:29:26 »

So many Muslims going on and on about these things when they do not even begin to understand the Bible or Christianity. Why are Muslims so insecure about their religion?  I'm not going to get into a my religion is better than yours argument with you. I will only say that the Bible is sometimes just talking about historical things that have happened, sometimes it teaches in parables/metaphors, and God periodically changes the names of people and places throughout the Bible. The Bible was given to us over many more years than the Quran. God taught people in each period of time what they needed to be taught at the time - different times, different circumstances.  There are still things in the Bible that we do not understand because God isn't ready for us to understand them and He has sealed them up until He is ready for us to understand them. This only makes sense since the Bible is filled with prophecies and the Quran is not.
I am not sure what the name "Christianity" has to do with anything.  Jesus also tells us that we will worship in His name. I'm not going to look up to see where the name "Christianity" came from, but it's probably just as everything else Muslims have ever told me and I have researched and found there not to be any truth whatsoever to what they say. Pagans actually did have a moon God named Allah, by the way.  Does the Quran have the names Islam/Muslims in it?  I don't know.  I do know that people used to call Muslims "Muhammadans".  But I hardly think an earthly name means anything at all.
You say there are so many errors in the Bible, yet the last time I read anything about this from scholars, they said the Bible was like 98.9% error free.  And most Christians use the exact same Bible. There are some words that may be different, yet mean the same things. The Bible is not like the Quran and Christians do not think of it as Muslims think of the Quran. And by the way, Christians never worshipped Mary. This is one out of many errors in the Quran.  The Quran also has different words in it, according to who interpreted it. The difference in the Quran and the Bible is that Christians have tens of thousands of manuscripts we can always go back to and check to see if what we have is correct or not.  Muslims have zero manuscripts.  The Quran used to have all kinds of different copies...and I mean totally different Qurans, not just different interpretations of words, until some leader picked out one and decided to burn the others.  Also, the Quran verses are not even in chronological order.  It is written with the longest or shortest verses first...can't recall which one.  How and why would God write His holy book with the longest or shortest verses first and how in the world could anyone ever interpret it correctly?
As I said, I really do not want to get into this AGAIN.  I have read all of the accusations Muslims make against the Bible/Christianity and all of the accusations Christians make against the Quran, etc., read all of the supposed conflicts and explanations for both. It's just a never-ending ridiculous argument that almost all Christians will not participate in.  In fact, soon after 9/11/01, when I went to the Muslim message boards/websites to find out what Islam was all about and I encountered these accusations, I did a google search and could only find like one or two Christian sites saying anything at all about Islam/Muslims. Of course, soon after, they began popping up everywhere, but I know for sure who started all of this craziness. 
If you really want to understand the Bible/Christianity, which I doubt you do, I would suggest you do a google search for ex-Muslims who are now Christian preachers. I have never known anyone to preach the gospels better than ex-Muslims. I can certainly see why God is calling so many of them now to Christianity. Thousands of ex-Muslims, now Christians, are claiming to have had visions/dreams of Jesus. In fact, so many have been claiming this in the last few years, they have done studies on this at some university in California. To me, this is a miracle. They were doing a radio show about it in Africa and suddenly the phones began lighting up like crazy with ex-Muslims telling their story of having these visions/dreams.  Why do you think Africa is quickly turning into a Christian country all of a sudden?  For many years Christian missionaries have been going to Africa with little to no success.  Now, suddenly, literally thousands are converting to Christianity every day because they are having these dreams/visions of Jesus.
When I first saw all of these accusations Muslims were making, I went and researched them myself, instead of just believing a website.  I would suggest you do the same.
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« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2007, 04:53:54 »

Christ was not a christian, Buddha was not a buddhist, mohummad was not a muslim and krishna was not a hindu!

Anyhow, what has the astral pulse got to do with religion,
Jeehad, you need fundamental christians to have these mindless debates, and they dont come here, for they think out of body experiences are evil and satanic.
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« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2007, 04:42:48 »

I have a comment. I apologize that I have not read everything in this post because, well, there's too much and I dont have the patience at this time but I just wanted to say, and I mean no offence, but for one, Mustardseed, saying that "Islam rules the mideast and the result is chaos" is a very ignorant statement. Islam IS a peaceful religion but many of the follwers F*ck it up and distort it, much like many, MANY christian follwers are not peaceful, kind people at all. And saying that most rapists are immigrants is also very ignorant. There are bad people in every country, in every religion, without exception. And there are many examples of GOD in the bible encouraging his followers to commit violence and there are verses that could support the opression of women.
And jeehad, I agree with you on certain things about christianity but you strike me as kind of an angry person. Im sure anyone can find flaws in any religion, including Islam.
Debate can be good, but this kind of seems more like bickering than debating. There are many similarities between both of your religions, whether you acknowledge them or not.

Again I apologize, I dont mean to offend and I havent read even half of this thread I just wanted to comment on the very few parts that I did read.

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« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2007, 01:52:45 »

I think you've put your finger on the whole crux of this issue Mindfreak.

Two different religions arguing two different viewpoints, sometimes fanatically, but in the end they're really very much the same.

Paola,
Quote
Christ was not a christian, Buddha was not a buddhist, mohummad was not a muslim and krishna was not a hindu!
Isn't this so true!
These people didn't come to Earth to create separatism through religions. They were all trying to teach people NOT to go that way.
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« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2007, 03:32:29 »

i think all religions miss the point. we arent seperate. we are one. everyone and everything. conciousness is a pyramid "god" being at the top and everything else is a thought form in the mind of "god" ("the source"/"the one"/"the all") hence we are not just of god but are god in the sence that we are all the same thing from the bottom of the pyramid upward to the top where sits a point of conciousness that can comprehend everything and anything. we down the bottom cannot. we simply choose to be here in the physical to learn the lessons our soul needs to learn.
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« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2007, 05:26:01 »

Although, that is just another belief, or point of view, no different than the beliefs or point of views of religions. The only things that we can say are certainties have to do with immediate experience. Which is why I prefer not to speculate on god or beginings or things like that because they cannot be verified they require blind faith. Instead I prefer to study my own mind and consciousness and develop it through meditation. When the mind is highly developed you can learn things about reality that you cant with an undeveloped mind, and these can be verified because it comes from immediate experience. 
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« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2007, 19:20:02 »

Christ was not a christian, Buddha was not a buddhist, mohummad was not a muslim and krishna was not a hindu!

Actually Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was a Muslim.

 I (Muhammad SAW) have been commanded only to worship the Lord of this city (Makkah), Him Who has sanctified it and His is everything(in the universe). And I am commanded to be from among the Muslims (those who submit to Allah in Islam). [Surah An-Naml 27:91]
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