Use of Allegory and Metaphor in the Scriptures

[wisp]

Thank you Beth. I would love to contribute to more to this!
I'm in the process of reading what you have written here and at the other places. I'm not a slow reader, however I am slow at taking in information in so as to understand it fully, or at least the best I can at the time. You write some very interesting things. And the subject material is right down my alley. [].
I will have to think more on responses to some of your questions.
Yes, I know about the writing on the wall thing. Dream-wise the closest thing so far has been the one and only what I would call a classic out of body experience. The word on the wall was a glowing red neon-like sign. The word was there but I couldn't make out the letters. I was distracted too by the fact I was floating in the air.I was having to think about two things at once. [] This being too, along the lines of language and other things we are talking about. The only other thing I can think of right now (without looking through my dream journal) was a dream of symbols on the forehead of these children. The symbols being on the skin has a special symbolic meaning, just as symbols on the wall do.

I will read more, think more, and get back with you. I'm enjoying reading your material. I will have more to write soon.

[Tab]

Blavatsky calls sanscrit (in pretty big bold letters I believe) the language of the gods.
Of course, she also calls hebrew phallacised egyptian writing.
Don't ask me which is which. Just a recurring theme in ancient writing

[Beth]

Tab:

LOL...yes... Blavatsky had a "personality" that was all her own!!![]

[Narrow Path]

15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

[Tab]

quote:His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Wow, thanks for proving what Beth has been saying this whole time about esoteric meaning which you have been refuting.

[Beth]

quote:15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Okay Narrowpath....you are not going to like this...but......It Is Time.

Read Galatians 4:21-26
 

quote:21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

These people were not real people. All early Christians knew this. And Paul knew this and tried to teach it.  An allegorical vs. a literal interpretation of scripture is what early Christianity was all about.  A division was created between the literalist Jews and the Allegorical Jews.  As Tab just pointed out, you have just offered a scriptural passage that supports the position that a literal interpretation of scripture was not intended.  

Figuratively=Allegorically  
Sarah=the heavenly Jerusalem
Hagar=the earthly Jerusalem

Don't believe me? In Acts 18:12-16 we read:
 

quote:12While Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews made a united attack on Paul and brought him into court. 13"This man," they charged, "is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the law." 14Just as Paul was about to speak Gallio said to the Jews, "If you Jews were making a complaint about some misdemeanor or serious crime, it would be reasonable for me to listen to you. 15But since it involves questions about words and names and your own law--settle the matter yourselves. I will not be a judge of such things." 16So he had them ejected from the court.

The whole split involved the issue of "historical literal history" versus "allegorical interpretation." The literalists remained Judaism, and the allegorists became Christians.  

[Tab]

quote:Originally posted by Beth

The literalists remained Judaism, and the allegorists became Christians.

Shame it didn't stay that way save maybe for the Rosicrucians

[wisp]

Beth,
It's interesting about ancient tradition. I have always felt that the Jewish were the chosen people. Not just because of popular opinion, but because I have my own feelings aout this. I'm not sure how the words Jewish and Hebrew are separated, but that's another issue.I know less on this subject than even the bible. I use to read the bible. I read it more for inspiration,confirmation, and connection with God. Most my connection with religion,spirituality, and information has been through prayer and generally talking to God. The bible is great though. There is something mystical about it. I have found that people who can really get into the bible are also able to express themselves about it, and can really write a lot on it. God has been my source, the bible backs up much of what I've learned. I don't have the same ability to express with scriptures. I get lost on this concept and ability. I also get lost in messages obtained this way. Your ability, and what you express in your writing has caught my attention. You strike me as a realiable and a good resource for information. Apparently you seem quite dedicated too. I liked what you said somewhere about your hope to be a good christian. I too believe it is a work in progress too, if that's what you meant.
I have not had a dream I'm aware of that involved Hebrew.I do have an idea of how the letters are shaped. I know the distinctive look your talking about. The shapes remind me off hand, a little like the stones at stonehenge. If they don't, I better find my little bible dictionary, and refresh myself.[]

An interesting discovery I made about the Kabbalah, or I should say, about the tree of life. I grew up with very few people around. And my family are/were people of few words. As a young person I observed a lot. There was this old dead tree on the farm I lived. I was always curious about the history of this tree. It had been struck by lightening. Under the tree sat an old model T (or close to that) Ford. When I began deam studies, I connected with that old car I was so fascinated with. When I read about the tree of life, I thought immediately of this old tree. I realized many of the things I observed as a child, is what led me to my interest in God. From here, I then realized I can use the same principle in my life now. It's been great learning from the Earth standpoint.

I've never been led to the Gospel of John, but that's interesting about the history of critical thinking. I believe I do rationally think. I've always thought of rational as being subjective. I never connected with the critical thinking concept that much, though I like it. I hope I do utilize it!
With "Logical", it gets worse for me. That could be when my source of trouble comes. And then with anal[[]ytical, I'm never that formal or dedicated. I think that's why people lose me with long threads of scriptures and explanations.
I understand abstract thinking very well.
If I think of some ideas and make use of one thing or another, I'll be glad to share some of my thinking ways and/or theories. Sounds fun.

When it comes to language and communication, I have observed that the fewer the words the better to make a point. Sometimes words, or too many of them can obscure a message. Less words suggests more in shared thoughts. I recently met someone who for some reason or another, we can say very few words and understand each other. Sometimes just a simple phrase and the message is received by the other.
The only thing less than this is "thought". This is so interesting.

[Beth]

Wisp,

I am working on a response!  I am sorry, but I am a little bit behind...I will get back to you soon![]

[wisp]

That's okay Beth. No rush. []

This has to do with perception and communication I found interesting:

I just heard of this study done on the English Language.

It was discovered the English lnuagage can be raed as lnog as the first letters and the last letters are kept in correct order.

Has anyone heard this? I've tried it, it does work!

If I had more time I would write out a sample to show this. Unfortunately, I just have enough time for the sampling in the above sentence.An entire message can be written out in this altered manner, and still be read!  

I'm wondering how this can impact dream interpretations?
And other things too. It's sure something to think about.

[Beth]

Hey Wsip!

Waht you say abuot the Egnlsih lngaugae is vrey true!  

It has to do with the way our eyes scan the words and then our brains process the info!  I don't know a lot about it but it is dfientaely true![]  As to the astral and dream world?  I think it is something that we should all definately take into consideration!  I know I will from now on! Thanks for that contribution[]

Back to your other post.  I finally got it answered!
 

quote:I have not had a dream I'm aware of that involved Hebrew.I do have an idea of how the letters are shaped. I know the distinctive look your talking about. The shapes remind me off hand, a little like the stones at stonehenge. If they don't, I better find my little bible dictionary, and refresh myself.

That is a very interesting observation.  It resonates with me from somewhere—but Stonehenge always has, and yet I still know so little about it!   If I had a Hebrew font, I would offer the alphabet here, but I tried in one of my earliest posts, and the system could not read it.  I will check with Adrian to see if this is possible. Anyway…

The Bible is most definitely, layers upon layers of meaning.  The surface layer has a great wealth of wisdom in it.  And what I have seen of some of the deeper layers—this is most certainly the case as well.  It some senses, it is more of the same put into different words.  Other cases offer different things.  I will post some of these when I have them ready.  (It may be a while…so be patient with me please!!)
 

quote:An interesting discovery I made about the Kabbalah, or I should say, about the tree of life

That’s the beauty of symbols!  The majority of symbols used throughout the eons and throughout the world have oftentimes come from things in our day to day lives.  Like the Tree—the symbols can be universal and found in many cultures. Simply put, “the tree of life” is a “model” used for understanding the physical and metaphysical assumptions of Kabbalah.  Other symbols, such as the circle, star, cross, etc., come from geometry and numbers are of course also universal too.  Semiotics, or the study of symbols and signs is a very rich and fertile field for explorers and writers of the Astral to tap into.  It would interesting to read a comparative study between what semiotics has to offer today, and what could be contributed to by knowledge of the Astral.
 

quote:I understand abstract thinking very well.
If I think of some ideas and make use of one thing or another, I'll be glad to share some of my thinking ways and/or theories. Sounds fun

Please do!
 

quote:When it comes to language and communication, I have observed that the fewer the words the better to make a point. Sometimes words, or too many of them can obscure a message. Less words suggests more in shared thoughts.

Yes I agree! Short simple words or phrases can oftentimes be used to get a point across.  "I love you" for example, is a very short phrase, but a phrase that, as we have all found out, can be "very complex in its simplicity!"  It is a "feeling" but it is also much more(or less?lol) There is a lot to be said of "Love."[:X]  But some simple phrases are very obscure and not at all obvious.  

I remember when, years ago, I first read the phrases: “REALITY IS ONLY WHAT YOU PERCEIVE IT TO BE” and “YOU CREATE YOUR OWN REALITY”… Well…I swear!  I didn’t have a CLUE what that meant!!![:O]  It literally took me years to figure it out and to begin to understand the principles behind these statements.  AND, I might add—I still struggle with remembering it everyday!   So, I eventually found what those simple words meant—but I had to do a lot of studying, a lot of meditating/self reflection and a lot of experimenting to fully understand their principles!   Theories and wisdom can be very simple—it is the practice that is the challenge!
 

quote:The only thing less than this is "thought". This is so interesting.

So, what do you "think" about the simple phrase that “thought is really all that there is?"[8D]

[wisp]

Beth,
This sounds interesting about the multilayers of the bible. I'll look forward to this from you.
Well, you made me do a little work Beth (just kidding). I looked and couldn't find my bible dictionary. I did however search out and find this other book I had which contain Hebrew letters, "Hebrew Honey". This is a book I bought years ago when I was going through an interest in Hebrew.It's a collection of 500 old testament Hebrew word meanings of the old testament.  
 
It surely would be easy enough to search for the Hebrew alphabet somewhere on the net. I will when I get a chance.I'll then post a link.

I could also take interest in what you mention about comparative study of symbols and signs of today, and how it can contribute to knowing more of the astral. Beth, you must study dreams quite seriously? This interest sounds like a real dreamer. []
Do you have any examples of what you think may be new emerging symbols or signs of today? That will be an interesting thing to look at dreams now, since you mentioned it.

Tree of life fascinates me. The triangle is interesting too. Triangle suggests hierarchy to me.  I think a lot of people reject things or groups that uses a hierarchy system. It's a great way to learn for me. It's too bad this system is so easily misunderstood and abused.
I'm dealing with the down fall of this system in my life right now. I'm riding out the storm to see where it takes me.
Ideas are great only if their functional and practical.So far what I've seen in the fallout is disappointing.I see christianity as a hierarchy system (just the structure-leaving the religion part aside temporarily). Now I'm trying to see and understand where the parts fit back together. Times have changed, and maybe there is a reason.  The reason may be a spiritual and/or religious one.Another era perhaps.
This could be a reason I have to agree with you about signs on the astral level and/or dream levels. On a humorous note, I even noticed the pyramid food groups of daily requirements bashed on tv. What is going on? []

Without getting into it, absurity plays a part as a way to look at things. I've been emailing the same person for about 4 years. For the longest time I thought he was some kind of prophet. It was because of his often used style of absurdity. At the time I was also picking up on the absurdities of so many things myself. I believe there is a lot of humor in the astral and spirit realms.

I have to say, I pretty much think we do create our own reality. This is much of what I've been observing in other people as well, those that recognize this, and those that don't.  

Oh yes, "thought" IS.  All there is? No, unless you know something I don't know.  I believe we can know so much!  But yet, we can only know as much as we are safe with knowing. The realm of God is a higher realm. We can tap into it with an invitation. God comes to us, not the other way around. But within our own limits and boundaries, we can gain great things. A person's desire to reach out to God's realm is a personal choice.  There is something in both worlds. My belief is toward God's realm. Those who don't choose that realm may very well have their own, who knows, but them.

 

quote:Theories and wisdom can be very simple—it is the practice that is the challenge!

I like what you say Beth. For some, I bet that statement can be turned around. I'm glad to meet you Beth.

[Beth]

Wisp,

Hey there!

You wrote:

quote:I could also take interest in what you mention about comparative study of symbols and signs of today, and how it can contribute to knowing more of the astral. Beth, you must study dreams quite seriously? This interest sounds like a real dreamer.

tee-hee... yes...I guess you could very easily say that![]

quote:Do you have any examples of what you think may be new emerging symbols or signs of today? That will be an interesting thing to look at dreams now, since you mentioned it.

Yes I do as a matter fact!!  I am going to make a new post soon in the thread "Encountering Religious Symbols in the Astral"
 

quote:Oh yes, "thought" IS. All there is? No, unless you know something I don't know. I believe we can know so much! But yet, we can only know as much as we are safe with knowing. The realm of God is a higher realm. We can tap into it with an invitation.

But what if "we" and "everything else" are "thoughts in the Mind of God?"
 

quote:I'm glad to meet you Beth.

And I am glad to meet you as well wisp...thanks for all your contirbutions.  Keep 'em coming!

Peace,
Beth

[Robert Bruce]

G'day Folks!

Here's a good example of the 1st and last letter thing. I have often wondered about this.

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer
in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is
taht the frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.

You will also find a similar rule applies to sentences, in that you can often delete many words and still understand completely. This is because some words and phrases logically follow others, eg, they are necessary and easy to predict. So if deleted and blanks are left, you'll still get the picture.

Take care, Robert.

[wisp]

Hi Robert & Beth,
I'm enjoying this religion section. Beth, your explanations and understanding are wonderful. I usually don't zero in on details, but sometimes details matter.Your enthusiasum shines through. []
Thanks Robert for the added info about letters. Within the word whole(all) is the word hole(nothing). That seems significant.

Here is a link to Hebrew letters in case anyone is interested.

http://www.jewfaq.org/alephbet.htm

Here is another link for a quick way to mix letters up.

http://wordsmith.org/anagram/index.html

I plan to play around with words and separate the first and last letters. It's also interesting to discover about the same principle applies to words within a sentence. This reminds me of a speed reading class I was in. The course instruction was to not read all the words in a sentence.
I often scan large text and just pick out words or subjects that catch my attention. I imagine this is the same principle. In dreams I can see how scanning can take place too. Subconsciously it gets registered.All that remains is to bring this to the conscious level. What can be the inner mechanism that brings this to the mind? Once I felt it through the aura coming back to me. More often though, it seems to come from within.  I may try to find one of those scanner machines on the net.

Anyway, back to the subject. This is my take on God's mind and our mind(s). I don't think the same way as the christ consciousness concept (not a denial, just a different belief about where he is,cause I don't really know [?]). I believe God's intentions are for a free thinking, independent, and worthy being. Not worthy in the way we think. Worthy in the sense of who we are personally. God knows beyond what the human mind can perceive. This same perceiving ability is within our ability too. Our thinking is different than God's thinking. Human thinking can get very high, and can easily become confused for being God's thoughts.  Knowing the difference is part of the commication with God and learning. What is left unsaid by God may be manifested in other ways. This may be what synchronicity is possibly. It may manifest in other ways too. The superconscious mind comes in here somewhere but I haven't gotten that far in what I know. Dreams certainly has helped me discover what intuition means and is. I'm also discovering what empowerment means from dreaming. The distinction between who God is and who I am is very clear to me.  I think I'm on the right road.[:I]

I had a recent revelation. I have a great love for God. I learned recently that this is not necessarily the case for everyone, and may not even be a factor in the faith system (the love part being what it means to some). Someone connected to the a church ( a priest I think) said something along these lines and it really struck a true cord for me.
This is my belief in a nutshell (pun?...perhaps [])  
I think as long as I continue to empower myself and God continues to light the way, everything will go well. He knows how I think.And when all is said and done, God is there. We are in God's care.

I'm looking forward to the "Encountering Religious Symbols in the Astral".