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Author Topic: Use of Allegory and Metaphor in the Scriptures  (Read 8136 times)
Adrian
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« on: September 11, 2003, 21:03:00 »

Greetings Beth,

Thank you so much for your excellent opening posts and welcome to the forums![Smiley] You are certainly providing everyone with plenty of metaphoric "food for thought".

I need time to read through all of the information you have kindly provided us with so far, but I just wanted to say that the mystical, and symbolic or if you prefer metaphoric content is something I am very interested in. It fascinates me how everything has been interpreted by the religions in such material terms!

My favourite studies for interpretation are St. John's Gospel and Genesis I.

Regarding St. John, I just wanted to note one example for now and that is the well known "wine into water" story, ref. John 2:1

This is my interpretation. I believe this describes the purification of the Soul to yield the wine of pure enobled Spirit. The Astral body, the Soul is represented by the Universal element of Water. Over many incarnations and Spiritual development the Astral body, the Soul is gradually purified by the water of the Soul until it can transcend the cycle of incarnation emerging as the wine of the Spirit, the Mental body represented by the Universal element of Fire. This is also the same as Alchemy, the transmutation of base metal analogous to the unpurified Soul to the Gold of the enobled Spirit. John 2:1 is an alchemical metaphor.

John's Gospel contains profound Spiritual truths when interpreted in the way it was intended, many of which the modern bible still contains because the church simply sees it in material terms. One of the most profound quotes from John is: And on that day, you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you ---John 14:20. This teaches the truth that everyone and everything in the Universe is an integral aspect of both everyone and everything else, and of "God".

I look forward to this discussion progressing!

With best regards,

Adrian.
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Beth
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« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2003, 04:35:42 »

Adrian,

That is the beauty of scripture--and of approaching it outside of a literal interpretation.  Scripture has the power to speak to many people on many different levels.  My research has shown only the ancient model of scriptural creation and interpretation.  Later alchemy--well, actually, alchemy was started very early on--and by a Jewish woman--did you know that??[Wink]!!--but anyway, later medieval alchemy did depend heavily upon metaphor to describe the spiritual "refining" process.  I think that was another instance where too much emphasis was placed on the "literal" interpretation of "silver" and "gold!" [Smiley]

On your last paragraph (which sounds good to me!) there is also another interpretation that could be considered:  Within the tradition of which I refer, FATHER was the metaphor for KNOWLEDGE. And all worthwhile pursuits were pursuits for knowledge of God.  So, regarding the verse that you refer to  
quote:
And on that day, you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you ---John 14:20.
If we go the route that Jesus is the speaker, and his name means "salvation" the verse could read like this:  Salvation is in Knowledge, and you are saved in knowledge, and salvific knowledge is in you. If we take the route of "I AM" instead of Jesus, "I AM" is one of the names of God which also means "to live or to exist."  SO then the verse could also read something like this--To Exist is to Know, and you are in existence, ergo knowledge is in you. Or something to that affect!  (Straight translations from one language to another oftentimes sound awkward! A lot of the nuances of languages are lost in translation!)[Smiley]    But, I liken this verse to the adage: KNOW THYSELF.

Another interesting addition to this is that SON became the metaphor for "discernment."  (In Hebrew the word for son [bn=ben] and the word for discernment [byn=bin] only differs by the letter yod inserted between the two consonants b and n.)  So, being the SON of GOD meant "discernment of God" and being the SON of the FATHER meant "discernment of Knowledge."

According to Jewish tradition--there are no "wrong" interpretations of scripture! Like I said, your interpretation sounds good to me too!  The ancient Hebrew/Jewish attitude toward their scripture and their Hebrew language as a whole was that it was God's language and therefore God's scripture.  BUT, their concept of God was very different from what we have in the western religions of today--they recognized that the totality of God was way beyond human comprehension, so they approached the ideas and the power of God as "limitless."  Therefore, the power of God's language was also limitless, as were the possible translations of God's scripture.

Yes, they did write their stories in terms that were understandable to human comprehension, i.e., anthropromorphic metaphors...that was the hellenistic culture at the time (Zeus and Hera, etc.) Later Jewish midrash shows where they tried to "undo" the damage of a literal interpretation of these metaphors...but the idea had already taken a hold and most people just prefered to see deity that way.  In other words, the western conceptions of deity have really not progressed in over 2,000 years!  

Okay...enough out of me for tonight!![Smiley]  

and p.s....I am not sure how much longer I am going to continue with this thread.  With the exception of 2-3 people, it does not appear that very many people are interested in what I have to say.[Sad]


[portions of this post were extracted from Fire on the Water: Biblical Proper Name Exegesis and Language Based Mysticism, Beth B. Phillips, Copyright 2003.]
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« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2003, 04:35:42 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2003, 04:57:51 »

Beth, that post was incredibly enlightening. With that, Jewish scripture begins to sound less like a book of history and more like a philosophical doctrine similar to other mystical books of antiquity.
Considering those 'keys', the bible doesn't seem as anthropomorphically confused as it does with the wide scale interpretations of our day.
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Beth
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« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2003, 05:30:58 »

Dear Tab:

That's right! [Wink]
[Smiley][Smiley][Smiley][Smiley][Smiley][Cheesy]

Peace,
Beth
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« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2003, 07:04:06 »

beth, don't be discouraged!  i find this all fascinating, but i have not been making any comments, just reading & letting it sink in.  and i'm not sure what to say at this time, i don't have any real questions yet.  i'll have questions the more in depth this goes, if it goes any further... i hope others will soon make their own statements about all this.  i've never really read the bible or anything, so i don't really have much i can comment on... i'm a total ignoramus!  but to see that maybe the bible has much more deeper meanings and messages is totally intriguing, because so far my opinion of the book was that it causes nothing but trouble. [Wink] [}:)]
if you have other things you'd like to share, don't hesitate!!! [Smiley]
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Beth
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« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2003, 18:19:05 »

Curiousgirl,

Since your appeal is so sincere, I will be glad to oblige.  Thank you for your interest.  First, to let you know a little bit about me, I left the church in my early teens.  I instinctively knew that something was very wrong about their teachings. And--it upset me during many a Sunday school lesson and Sunday sermon.  But in my adolescent mind—I just couldn’t put my finger on what it was that was wrong.  Later, as a young woman I knew I believed in God—but I also had an epiphany that Jesus was not that much different than me.  This of course caused an even wider breach between me and the church.  But—that did not stop my being drawn to the scriptures and pondering the problem.  I just knew there was more to it.  At age 35, I was very blessed to have the opportunity to enter college.  As an adult undergraduate, I studied many subjects, two of which were religion and philosophy.  That was when I began my educated journey into the scriptures. I then went on to graduate school to continue those studies.  Seven years later—after years of intense study and having learned the ancient languages of Hebrew and Greek, I finally found this interpretive method.  I have known about it for two years now, and I feel as though I have finally been liberated from a lifetime of deep-in-my-heart suspicion and sadness.  I also finally had my earlier epiphany confirmed, that the person in the NT named Jesus was not—is not—that much different from me!  

As a woman, one of the most painful things that the church has maintained for centuries is that women are evil perpetuators of original sin and the ultimate cause of the fall of humanity.   Now I KNOW that this is NOT the case.  I will offer here a very different approach to understanding what the writers of scripture were talking about regarding the masculine and feminine.

The Gospel of Philip holds that "Truth is the mother," and "Knowledge is the father." (Gnostic Gospel of Phillip, 77.20)  Thus, for that gnostic writer, mother and father are symbols of truth and knowledge.  A similar idea is echoed in later kabbalistic thought, where mother and father are associated with two of the three supernal sefirot in the Kabbalistic Tree of Life, where mother is Binah, or understanding, and father is wisdom, or Chokhmah. Application of these symbols is found in the sacred marriage between a husband as wisdom and a wife as understanding in bridal mystical union. (The sacred marriage is most often connected with the marriage between the bride and the bridegroom as found in the Song of Songs.)The symbolic significance of a man and woman coming together in this union are for the sole purpose of giving birth to a son, which kabbalists find in the invisible sefirah of da’at, or knowledge. Interpretation of these symbols in this way could also render woman as the Rational Soul, man as the Intellect and the son—or Knowledge, as the offspring of that union.  The son is related to the Divine Intellect in that it was begotten of both understanding and wisdom.  Another important interpretation in this context is the Hebrew word for "son" that I explained in my earlier post.  In this interpretation, Son as arising from mystical union, can therefore be taken as an esoteric symbol for discernment attained through wisdom and understanding.
 
Philo of Alexandria, a 1st century Jewish scholar wrote of the masculine and feminine as well. (He is a much better source than any historian because he actually wrote about scripture, not just about the people who did.) For example, man and woman represented mind and sensory perceptions, respectively, as well as thought and virtue in other contexts.  Allegorically expressed, the mind in clarity of thought (masculine) is necessary before any approach to deity can be experienced, but, by the same token, through our sensory perceptions a purity of heart (feminine) is also required. In the same way, the mind should always rule over the passions as derived from sensory perceptions--hence the husband should rule over the wife thing.  Just like the above case of mother and father, all ideas of the masculine and feminine are translated out of anthropomorphic stereotypes and transformed into incorporeal philosophical archetypes.  These particular interpretations create very different readings of scripture than has traditionally been the case, e.g., the fall of humankind is now due to our "passions" calling the shots, rather than our "intellect", and the connotations related to the biblical phrase "being born of a woman" can now be liberated from meaning "born of evil or original sin" to mean "born of passion" in the generic sense of the term, or born of virtue and/or of spiritual passion.

The misunderstanding of masculine and feminine propagated by the Church has had an enormous rippling effect throughout the centuries in the subjugation of women.  Once again, taking scripture literally—where allegory was intended, deeply disturbing misunderstandings and societal norms have been created that need not have been the case.  Now, two millennia later, perhaps this can finally be remedied.  It is for people like you Curiousgirl, and the others who have shown interest in this that I will continue to work on this book—as well as do everything I can to see that it gets published.  Thank you for wanting to know more.

In peace and love,
Beth



[large portions of this post were extracted from Fire on the Water: Biblical Proper Name Exegesis and Language Based Mysticism, Beth B. Phillips, copyright 2003.]
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« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2003, 20:48:46 »

Dear Beth
Very interesting stuf. I would say that for my part the issue about male and female has been a big problem for a while. I am married to a wonderful women who loves me dearly. For some time we have had some problems as marriges do and I have often been very torn in what to do. In one way I would like to simplify things and say "listen just do it cause I say so" the old religious or churchanity way that women should submit, but my intuition tells me that this would crush her and is not the way God would have me cunduct my self. The scripture touches briefly on this saying :"there is no male or female in Christ", and instinctivly I believe this should be the base for my behaviour and attitude. We (male and female)must find common ground. Seeing we are different both must agree together if anything has to get accomplished. I have studied the text mostly in English but has also meddled a bit in the greek, and I seem to find that the teachings of Paul are very different in parts to the teachings of Jesus. Most of the legalism and judgemental stuf comes from his episteles and he is qouted as saying "this say I not the Lord" indicating that he was putting forth his opinion. I also feel that it is unfair to the male as well, as women in Churches who have been used to adhere to this standard, often have the tendency to sit back and come along for the ride when they are at times in many ways more suited to lead teach and guide their family and the church for that matter. Many men myself included are married to very very smart and spiritual women , who are in many areas our superiors. I would like to come along for the ride too[Wink]sometimes. I guess all that to say the shoe fits so I will wear it.
On another note, I find that these allegories and how they all fit together like a russian tea egg , like onions with layers, [Wink] ( I somehow dont think you have seen the movie Shreck ) the words, language and all seems to me to be a witness of divinity and not really a cunningly divised secret text. It seems entirely plausible and likely that the creration of such a ducument is in every way inspired by God. What do you think!!!I apologise if I seem simplistic in my application of your very theoretical findings but I seem to be the kind of person who have to have it all the way down on "the bottom shelf" before I can understand it.

Regards Mustardseed
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« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2003, 22:11:41 »

Mustardseed:

I have no doubt that scripture was divinely inspired--in every way. But--perhaps it WAS inspired with "cunning" to hide and protect the depth of its messages from those who would see them destroyed.  Politically, during this time, the Romans were really truly persecuting those who refused to worship Caesar and the Roman Gods. That is the nature of "hostile takeovers."  History is full of them.  Whenever a hostile culture infiltrated another culture with the intention of taking over their territories and way of life, it was the norm to force people to adhere to their new customs and follow their new rule of government .  One of the most powerful customs throughout history has been religion.  So, I think it is plausible that scripture was divinely inspired "with cunning" to protect one religion from becoming extinct at the hands of another.

Finally, I have found that the divine inspires us all in many different ways. And, I also hold that we are no less inspired today than were the writers of scripture.  The divine was alive and in touch with them then--and the divine is alive and in touch with us now.

Peace,
Beth

PLEASE NOTE: Some of the following posts were in response to an inappropriate post by another user. Due to its content, it was deleted by the administrator of this board.  
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« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2003, 05:48:29 »

*SIGH* allanon, uh, narrow path, for a while it seemed you had improved and were starting to sound more like a human being again, and were trying to understand our thinking... but now it seems you're going right back to your robotic bible quoting again and ramming stuff down our throats.  we're right back at, "resistance is futile; you will be assimilated."  

if you'll notice, beth has not been saying that god has been trying to deceive or hide his truths in a code.  she has been saying that the human beings who believed in it were trying to protect their religion from being destroyed, and thus encoded the messages from god themselves by using allegory and metaphor(i am understanding this correctly, right?).  why is it so hard to think of the bible as containing god's word, but written by humans?  did the bible just simply fall down from the sky, all written up by various authors?  why is it not just all one continuous piece, with the signature, "sincerely, your ever-loving GOD" at the end of the book?  why would god act like all these people wrote these various versions of the same stories, if supposedly he wrote it?  beth is not saying that god's word is not in there, it is simply just protected from harm, and that it is really even more amazing than what you are getting at surface value from the stories.  if it was a case of simply looking too deeply for something that really isn't there, like trying to come up with a deep meaning for the rhyme, "jack and jill went up the hill" then i would think there would be a lot of "misses" along with the "hits";  things that just don't seem to fit or make sense.  but what she seems to be finding so far is that there's a lot of "coincidences" in meanings and symbolism, a lot of things fitting so nicely together, that it can't be merely just coincidence.  perhaps there really is something deeper going on there.  hope this makes any kind of sense. [:I]
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« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2003, 05:54:46 »

Allanon, I hope you take it as a compliment when I say that you're the kind of person who makes me never want to look at another disgusting piece of christian dogma ever again. Such ignorance is completely abominal. But your god teaches ignorance, dosen't he? I echo Beth's message when I say go be 'like a child' where you're not surrounded by adults please.
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« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2003, 06:54:37 »

Curiousgirl,

The "resistance is futile" line is just brilliant!!![^]

The Borg, in seeking a state of perfection as they see it, aggressively and ruthelessly assimilate beings into their own culture, as there can be no other way - "your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own".

This has to be one of the best comparisons to N.P.'s style of preaching I've seen.[Wink]

James.
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« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2003, 16:01:21 »

One simple question Narrow Path:

You proclaim that  the Bible is the only defense against descending into the depths of depravity and sin and ultimately being controlled by the forces of darkness?

If this is true, why do I and others "sin" much LESS since leaving the church and the Bible behind than I/we did when we were doing our best to allow Jesus to live through us?  I mean I was not a "terrible person" as a Christian or anything, but I was more selfish and much more judgemental than I am now.  I did not express love as freely as I do now.  If you had known me as a person then and known me now, and then done an honest comparison between which time in my life I was actually living my life with more Christlike actions and love, you would see beyond any shadow of a doubt that I am much closer now than I was then.  Even the Bible sais you will be able to judge the tree from its fruits.

Note that I don't think any of this trouble I experienced with Christianity had anything to do with Jesus, but more with the church and its inaccurate teachings about the Bible.

I can't help but notice the discrepancy here between my experience and your proclamation.  I would seem to be living proof that your "ultimate truth" is not as ultimate or absolute as you believe...at least not necessarily for other people than yourself?

--Soulfire
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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2003, 02:51:25 »

G'day Folks!

This is a reminder to all posters in this thread to 'please' keep posts on topic.

Reread the title of this thread and please keep to this subject.

If you would like to discuss something else, please go to another topic, or to Astral Chat for general discussion.

We fully intend to keep this and other related threads clear of unrelated material, so please be understanding when some posts are moved or deleted.

As for the matter of Allanon annoying Beth with lots of PEM's and off topic posts containing personal snipes and etc (most of which are quickly deleted), shame on him!  This kind of behaviour will 'not' be tolerated.   Allanon has been warned a number of times about this kind of thing and his forum membership is currently under review.


Take care, Robert

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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2003, 04:27:45 »

Beth, Please don't give up so quickly on this. The subject is interesting. I've been studying in my own way the language of the subconscious. I'm not much of a critical thinker in the commonly way of thought. I don't think I have to be a traditional student or thinker on the subjects of my interests, religion, spirituality, dreams, and the like. In fact, thinking methods are part of the mysteries in my opinion.

I believe the bible contains many hidden messages on many levels of communication. Adrian's explanation of the water turned into wine is an example of how these messages unfold to a person.

I've been studying christianity since an early age. The last few years I've been exploring other faith sytems. There is a common thread among the various religions.

I've also been studying dreams. I've found there is such a close connection between dreams and bible content. For instance, the things you have written on eating is similiar (if not the same) as a dream is interpreted.

Any thoughts on this?

An added note on this. Not only is this important for gaining knowledge, but I also think it opens one up to understanding others.




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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2003, 06:08:29 »

Hey there wisp!

Thanks for wanting to be involved in this discussion.  It is good to have you.  You make several very good points.
 
quote:
I've been studying in my own way the language of the subconscious

It might make you happy to know, that "a language of the subconscious" was a very big part of this ancient tradition.  As a matter of fact, the ancient Hebrews (and the whole Jewish tradition for that matter) believed that HEBREW WAS/IS that language!  They believed that Hebrew was the language that God chose to create the world with, and THAT was why they were God's "chosen people."  I can't of course verify that Hebrew is the language of God (or the divine realm) BUT I will say that I have certainly dreamed in Hebrew, even before I had ever studied it!  I "recognized it" when I saw it for the "first time!"  This echoes a post that Robert made on one of these threads that he too had had a dream of Hebrew written on the wall.  Hebrew has a very distinctive look to it, and unless you have seen it before, it can look like some rather strange characters!  But since both Robert and I have had a similar experience (and we live on opposite sides of the globe) then it would not surprise me if it were at least ONE of the languages of the subconcious.  Have you ever had a similar experience?
 
quote:
In fact, thinking methods are part of the mysteries in my opinion.


I could not agree more!  And--once again, the ancients would also agree with you. They actually had a lot to say about the whole "process of thought" and this was actually the basis of the whole philosophical endeavor! (Actually, this is one of the meanings of the Greek word "LOGOS" which, when it was translated into English became "The Word" as we find it in the opening verses of the Gospel of John!!![Cheesy]) "Critical thinking" and "rational thought" was considered a premium quality thing back then, and as a matter of fact, it was held that this was a special gift bestowed by God (Think Solomon here.)   .  While I can certainly be very logical and anal[8D]ytical I am also a very abstract thinker.  This has caused me problems on more than one occasion when I am trying to explain something to someone who isn't!![B)]] But, bottom line, in the ancient mysteries, both abstract and analytical thinking was a necessity!! I would really like to hear more about your theories on this
 
quote:
I've also been studying dreams. I've found there is such a close connection between dreams and bible content. For instance, the things you have written on eating is similiar (if not the same) as a dream is interpreted.

YEP! Dreams were also a VERY important aspect of this mystery tradition.  I would even surmise that the ancients would have considered that dreams were also an actual aspect of the language of the subconsious!  (I can't go into why I make this claim here, but I will leave it here as my own conjecture!) The bible, of course, speaks quite a bit of dreams but so did the ancient scholars who studied the scriptures, and their personal dreams were a very important tool to their scholarship (as a connection to the divine realm.)  (Ditto for me as well!![Wink]) And--as humans we depend a great deal on metaphors and such to interrelate and communicate with each other, so why wouldn't the divine realm use them as well??!!  Using metaphors solves the "language barrier" that exists between speakers of different languages. Again, there is that "A rose is still a rose...thing!
 
quote:
Not only is this important for gaining knowledge, but I also think it opens one up to understanding others.


In my opinion, a life without this--is probably not a life worth living!!![Smiley]

I do hope you come back and engage with us here!  Once again welcome.  I hope to read your thoughts again soon!


(And yes--you are a critical thinker!! To be such does not denote being a traditional student!! Heck, I was in class with a few people that you probably could have "thought" circles around!![Wink])
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« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2003, 17:05:48 »

Thank you Beth. I would love to contribute to more to this!
I'm in the process of reading what you have written here and at the other places. I'm not a slow reader, however I am slow at taking in information in so as to understand it fully, or at least the best I can at the time. You write some very interesting things. And the subject material is right down my alley. [Smiley].
I will have to think more on responses to some of your questions.
Yes, I know about the writing on the wall thing. Dream-wise the closest thing so far has been the one and only what I would call a classic out of body experience. The word on the wall was a glowing red neon-like sign. The word was there but I couldn't make out the letters. I was distracted too by the fact I was floating in the air.I was having to think about two things at once. [Smiley] This being too, along the lines of language and other things we are talking about. The only other thing I can think of right now (without looking through my dream journal) was a dream of symbols on the forehead of these children. The symbols being on the skin has a special symbolic meaning, just as symbols on the wall do.

I will read more, think more, and get back with you. I'm enjoying reading your material. I will have more to write soon.
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« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2003, 20:11:10 »

Blavatsky calls sanscrit (in pretty big bold letters I believe) the language of the gods.
Of course, she also calls hebrew phallacised egyptian writing.
Don't ask me which is which. Just a recurring theme in ancient writing undecided
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« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2003, 20:56:45 »

Tab:

LOL...yes... Blavatsky had a "personality" that was all her own!!![Wink]
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« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2003, 23:35:48 »

15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
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Tab
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« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2003, 23:59:26 »

quote:
His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.


Wow, thanks for proving what Beth has been saying this whole time about esoteric meaning which you have been refuting.
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Beth
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« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2003, 02:57:22 »

quote:
15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.


Okay Narrowpath....you are not going to like this...but......It Is Time.

Read Galatians 4:21-26
 
quote:
21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.


These people were not real people. All early Christians knew this. And Paul knew this and tried to teach it.  An allegorical vs. a literal interpretation of scripture is what early Christianity was all about.  A division was created between the literalist Jews and the Allegorical Jews.  As Tab just pointed out, you have just offered a scriptural passage that supports the position that a literal interpretation of scripture was not intended.  

Figuratively=Allegorically  
Sarah=the heavenly Jerusalem
Hagar=the earthly Jerusalem

Don't believe me? In Acts 18:12-16 we read:
 
quote:
12While Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews made a united attack on Paul and brought him into court. 13"This man," they charged, "is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the law." 14Just as Paul was about to speak Gallio said to the Jews, "If you Jews were making a complaint about some misdemeanor or serious crime, it would be reasonable for me to listen to you. 15But since it involves questions about words and names and your own law--settle the matter yourselves. I will not be a judge of such things." 16So he had them ejected from the court.


The whole split involved the issue of "historical literal history" versus "allegorical interpretation." The literalists remained Judaism, and the allegorists became Christians.  
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Tab
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« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2003, 03:29:06 »

quote:
Originally posted by Beth

The literalists remained Judaism, and the allegorists became Christians.


Shame it didn't stay that way save maybe for the Rosicrucians undecided
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wisp
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« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2003, 04:00:56 »

Beth,
It's interesting about ancient tradition. I have always felt that the Jewish were the chosen people. Not just because of popular opinion, but because I have my own feelings aout this. I'm not sure how the words Jewish and Hebrew are separated, but that's another issue.I know less on this subject than even the bible. I use to read the bible. I read it more for inspiration,confirmation, and connection with God. Most my connection with religion,spirituality, and information has been through prayer and generally talking to God. The bible is great though. There is something mystical about it. I have found that people who can really get into the bible are also able to express themselves about it, and can really write a lot on it. God has been my source, the bible backs up much of what I've learned. I don't have the same ability to express with scriptures. I get lost on this concept and ability. I also get lost in messages obtained this way. Your ability, and what you express in your writing has caught my attention. You strike me as a realiable and a good resource for information. Apparently you seem quite dedicated too. I liked what you said somewhere about your hope to be a good christian. I too believe it is a work in progress too, if that's what you meant.
I have not had a dream I'm aware of that involved Hebrew.I do have an idea of how the letters are shaped. I know the distinctive look your talking about. The shapes remind me off hand, a little like the stones at stonehenge. If they don't, I better find my little bible dictionary, and refresh myself.[Smiley]

An interesting discovery I made about the Kabbalah, or I should say, about the tree of life. I grew up with very few people around. And my family are/were people of few words. As a young person I observed a lot. There was this old dead tree on the farm I lived. I was always curious about the history of this tree. It had been struck by lightening. Under the tree sat an old model T (or close to that) Ford. When I began deam studies, I connected with that old car I was so fascinated with. When I read about the tree of life, I thought immediately of this old tree. I realized many of the things I observed as a child, is what led me to my interest in God. From here, I then realized I can use the same principle in my life now. It's been great learning from the Earth standpoint.

I've never been led to the Gospel of John, but that's interesting about the history of critical thinking. I believe I do rationally think. I've always thought of rational as being subjective. I never connected with the critical thinking concept that much, though I like it. I hope I do utilize it!
With "Logical", it gets worse for me. That could be when my source of trouble comes. And then with anal[[Wink]ytical, I'm never that formal or dedicated. I think that's why people lose me with long threads of scriptures and explanations.
I understand abstract thinking very well.
If I think of some ideas and make use of one thing or another, I'll be glad to share some of my thinking ways and/or theories. Sounds fun.

When it comes to language and communication, I have observed that the fewer the words the better to make a point. Sometimes words, or too many of them can obscure a message. Less words suggests more in shared thoughts. I recently met someone who for some reason or another, we can say very few words and understand each other. Sometimes just a simple phrase and the message is received by the other.
The only thing less than this is "thought". This is so interesting.
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Beth
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« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2003, 05:10:10 »

Wisp,

I am working on a response!  I am sorry, but I am a little bit behind...I will get back to you soon![Smiley]
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wisp
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« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2003, 20:05:35 »

That's okay Beth. No rush. [Smiley]

This has to do with perception and communication I found interesting:

I just heard of this study done on the English Language.

It was discovered the English lnuagage can be raed as lnog as the first letters and the last letters are kept in correct order.

Has anyone heard this? I've tried it, it does work!

If I had more time I would write out a sample to show this. Unfortunately, I just have enough time for the sampling in the above sentence.An entire message can be written out in this altered manner, and still be read!  

I'm wondering how this can impact dream interpretations?
And other things too. It's sure something to think about.
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