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Author Topic: Was Jesus Married?  (Read 6868 times)
Beth
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« on: September 18, 2003, 00:53:01 »

Great topic!  And yes, a very controversial one at that!![Smiley]

I have some things that I wrote on this somewhere, I will look for it and post it soon!  Being on this board has really made me wish that I had organized things on my hard drive a little differently![:O]

But I will post on this soon...

Thanks for the support, and thanks for the question!![Cheesy]
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timeless
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« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2003, 01:34:00 »

Dear Beth,

I am looking forward to a nice quiet and interesting discussion.

I appreciate that you take a great deal of time doing all this.  It is kind of you to do so.  

Respectfully,
timeless
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« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2003, 01:34:00 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Beth
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« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2003, 03:24:43 »

Hopefully soon, Timeless, hopefully soon![Smiley]
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Mustardseed
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« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2003, 13:05:02 »

That is a very good point. I believe he was and I further more believe he had sex. Oh ohhh. what will happen now. It seems to me that the notion "yet without sin" is applied , and since the Church is generally teaching that sex was at the root of the fall it must be sin. This is not consistant with the commandment to multiply. Sex is not a sin. Jesus would not be a sinner to have had it, and why not it is a great invention, one of Gods best, why would he not have been a participant. Folks would like to think of him as a sexless Saviour but it seems obvious that he was not.
Regards Mustardseed

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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2003, 13:10:25 »

I think it is likely that he did have sex and possibly was married. There is a lot of his life, most of it in fact, that is not in the Bible.
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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2003, 13:10:25 »



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Mustardseed
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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2003, 13:12:44 »

Yes obviously there is
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Beth
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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2003, 22:57:41 »

Hey everyone!

Was Jesus Married?  

Metaphorically, the word “bridegroom” appears 24 times in the Bible, 14 of those in the NT as a metaphor for Christ.  But is there any other substantiating evidence that this was actually the case for Jesus?

There are 2 books that I suggest on this subject that go into great detail in search of an answer to this question and the implications that this question brings forth.  BTW: These books are very informative, scholarly in thesis development yet personal in presentation and are not thick and difficult to read.  They are relatively short and written in a style that is very easy to understand.  

The author of both, Margaret Starbird, began her search into this question, in response to her reading Holy Blood, Holy Grail that had recently made this radically bold claim.  As a faithful Catholic, she was "outraged" at such a blasphemous claim! She felt it was her duty to “prove” that these guys were “wrong” regardless of what they presented as “evidence” of the nuptial relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalene.  But, as her own findings will show, what she “proved” was NOT AT ALL what she expected!!!

So, these are both great books that (I think) should be read in a certain order—(but that probably doesn’t matter!)  

Starbird’s first book:

Woman with the Alabaster Jar is about the beginning of her search and the shocking truth that she discovered. And her second book,

The Goddess in the Gospels: Reclaiming the Sacred Feminine is the continuation of her search into even deeper waters of Christianity's history, while also offering readers a look into her own spiritual search—and the many spiritual crises that arose as a result of her research.

Again, the author’s name is Margaret Starbird, and these are the best books that I have read to inform us of crucial matters that surround this issue—especially how the truth of these matters was brought forth through the “mystery traditions” and even symbolically preserved with the esoteric design of the  Rider Waite Tarot.  I hope you will try to buy these books and read them!  They are well worth the money.

Peace,
Beth
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2003, 15:24:29 »

timeless - Great topic!

I've been fascinated with the idea of the Sacred Feminine and the possiblity of Jesus' marriage to Mary Magdalene since finishing The DaVinci Code by Dan Brown.

Thanks Beth for the suggested reading material!!
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2003, 16:56:49 »

Dear Beth,

Thank you so much for taking the time to post this material.  I will go through it and once I have absorbed at least some of it I will come back if I have any questions.  

Many Thanks,
timeless
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Beth
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2003, 19:36:34 »

You are SO welcome timeless!  Thanks for asking the question in the first place.[Cheesy]

There is SO much to learn when we open up the stories of the Bible, and allow them to do what "story" does best--and that is--to preserve an idea that can be added to and enhanced as the years go by.  The story of Jesus, as well as the other persons depicted in the Bible, can be resurrected from their ancient tombs and brought to life once again-through their stories as they are reflected in our lives.

So, read, read, read, and learn what is out there in the mainstream, as people who want to believe and understand are finding ways that they "can"!!

We truly live in a very exciting time!!! [Cheesy]

Peace,
Beth  
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Beth
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2003, 19:42:15 »

Oh...and Avalon...

Wasn't that a GREAT READ!!!  

I LOVED IT!!   [Cheesy]

Actually, the background to a lot of what Brown is referring to can be found in Starbird's books!  Her work is scholarly and factual, and Dan takes this knowledge and creates a fiction of his own!  

This is the crux of what I am talking about in many of these threads...the power of story is AWESOME!!

Because--Fact and fiction go hand in hand!![8D]

Peace,
Beth


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Mustardseed
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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2003, 22:03:12 »

About the sacred Femininity, It is a hotly debated in alternativly oriented Christians circles that the Holy Spirit is Female. There is a very interesting passage about the Virgin birth that I read one day and it stood out to me. It talks about the virgin Mary, the Angel said to her  "the Holy Spirit will come opon you (posses you)and the Power of the Highest will overshadow you, therefore the Holy One who is to be born will be called "the Son of God" Lk1:35

incidently a verse further down he says "nothing is impossible to God". It seems possible that she was possessed by the Holy Spirit, (female) God overshdowed her (intercourse) and had sex with the Holy Spirit and somehow the fruit was placed in Mary womb. Again here we are talking heresy so please tell no one I was the one to say it. Christians and especially Paulists like to keep it all male.

Regards Mustardseed
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Beth
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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2003, 22:51:03 »

quote:
Christians and especially Paulists like to keep it all male
I would like to point out, that this is just the Christian and Paulist of today.  Where the "he and she" come into this is in going back and looking at the Greek (and Hebrew) that underlies this idea, but also in, once again, taking scripture literally.  When we look past the literal and see another meaning of "masculine and feminine" we find very metaphysical ideas. These ideas were assumed in scripture, and by Paul, so to hearers and readers in the ancient period, these metaphysical meanings were understood.  It did not take long, however, before these ideas were misinterpreted and the metaphysical was concretized into the physical.  

See my more detailed post on the masculine and feminine (about six posts down at) http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7237&whichpage=1

But in brief, the masculine was understood as a metaphysical concept of "intellect" in such forms as "knowledge" and "reason" and the feminine was understood as coming from the "senses" in such forms as "passion" and "intuition."

So, in short (without initially going into all the implications of this idea):

God, as Father was "the highest knowledge" and the Holy Spirit as Feminine was the "highest intuition."  Our "higher self" perhaps.
 
For a "virgin" (assumed to be female) to have become impregnated by the Holy Spirit (as female) is really to say that The Holy Feminine "came into the unspoiled intuition" of a human person.  

But also, and perhaps more importantly, the term "virgin" could be seen as male too.  Mary, as the mother of Jesus (Salvation) was not in sexual intercourse with anyone or anything, it is a much higher truth than that.

We get into serious trouble when we try to force "male and female" in our terms today, upon the metaphorical of the ancient period. We see this very clearly with the problem here:  How can The Holy Spirit as "female" impregnate Mary, who is also understood to be "female?"  This is not only impossible, but it is also totally missing the point. But it is "we" that are missing the point, not the early Christians.  They understood this.

Early Christians, both male and female, hoped and prayed to be "impregnated by the Holy Spirit" so that they too could bring forth--into the world--their own Salvation as an offspring of the "the highest knowledge"--or God.  

The "only begotten son of God" is the only kind of knowledge that matters--that is, knowledge of God. Does this make sense?  

I know this is a lot to grasp, as today we have very concretized ideas of these things, but in order to fully understand the many confusing messages we get from biblical scripture, we must look beyond the literal and try to see what is really going on.

Peace,
Beth
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Mustardseed
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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2003, 23:20:11 »

(Beth said)
How can The Holy Spirit as "female" impregnate Mary, who is also understood to be "female?" This is not only impossible, but it is also totally missing the point. But it is "we" that are missing the point, not the early Christians. They understood this.

Dear Beth
Firstly that was not what I said,(if you were talking to me) I said that God (male)impreagnated the holy spirit (female) who had pessessed Mary (also female) and miracleously brought forth Jesus. Besides that I find that it is a silly argument to state "that is impossible" to any thread on this site. Most stuf is metaphysical spiritual and even OBEs are considered to be impossible by most folks in general. Lets explore the possibilities not lock ourselves into a new set of dogma. I find it somewhat confusing that you want us to stay so open to your points of view yet judge other points of view very categorically. No offence ofcourse. Are you still looking for answers or have you found them.?
Regards Mustardseed



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Beth
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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2003, 01:27:17 »

Mustardseed:

 
quote:
I find it somewhat confusing that you want us to stay so open to your points of view yet judge other points of view very categorically
.  Don't be confused by me Mustardseed.  And I am not judging anyone, once again, I am sharing what I have learned from studying a great deal of material from this period, by writers that had a much closer connection to the thoughts of the writers than we do today.  Read some of the works of Philo of Alexandria.  

 
quote:
Are you still looking for answers or have you found them.?

Mustardseed, please don't post controversial comments like this--not to me anyway.  I really don't want to have to deal with senseless, and totally irrelevent, confrontation all over again.  

Peace--please.
Beth
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« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2003, 02:49:00 »

Dear Mustardseed,

When we go back into antiquity it is almost impossible for either side to prove beyond any doubt this or that.  Fires, wars, time, corruption, have robbed both sides of solid irrefutable evidence.

Beth stands on the same ground you and I do.  She realizes this (I am almost certain).  She merely presents a case based on her experience, perception and studies.  This does not mean she has an open and shut case.  

Since we cannot prove beyond all doubt to all people the case that: Jesus walking the earth, or Jesus was married, or Jesus is only a story etc. etc. it comes down to personal choice.  My personal choice is that Jesus did exist but that there is also truth to the 'story' concept.  That story overlays or was hidden within the record of Jesus (a fiction based on a true story concept).  Beth has chosen her perception.  What I appreciate about her perception (even though I may disagree with aspects of it) is that she sees beauty and value in Christianity.  That beauty and value is just different than the beauty and value you or I see or may be want to see.  

This whole situation sort of reminds me of the Dalai Lama allowing psychologists do MRI studies on Buddhist monks.  The Dalai Lama is so comfortable and secure in his beliefs that his main interest is that science and medicine gains some benefit.  He seems totally unconcerned about how their findings might be used to breakdown meditation into something purely chemical or physical, or maybe even be used to discredit Buddhism itself (though I doubt that would happen).  What other people do with knowledge is their concern.  All he hopes is that something positive will be gained.

Respectfully,
timeless
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« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2003, 16:50:12 »

Dear Mustardseed,

Yet another way to look at the NT is that Jesus having studied and knowing the old stories emmersed himself in them.  He lived them and passed them on to others.  I could imagine someone who deeply understood symbolism and its value would do this.

Regards,
timeless
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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2003, 02:06:45 »

Just a quick response to some of the comments floating around in here. There is not just 'beauty and value in Christianity' and Jesus was not just some great moral teacher and the stories about him 'good moral principle.'  This is to completely err and miss everything that Jesus taught.  Jesus left no room at all to be called a good moral teacher.  Perhaps many of you are familiar with this next quote by C. S. Lewis, but I'll post it anyway as something to consider:

"I am trying here to prevent you saying the really silly thing that people often say about him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God.' That's the one thing you must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He'd either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he's a poached egg - or the Devil from Hell. You must make your choice. Either this was and is the Son of God: or else a madman: or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool: you can spit at him and kill him as a demon: or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But don't come to him with any of that patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He hasn't left that open to you. He didn't intend to."

In terms of God being male or female, he is neither.  The Bible does use male male terminology and Jesus as God Incarnate was male, but the Bible also uses female anthropomorphisms in describing certain aspects of God's character.  Men and women are made in God's image, so to say that God is male or female is to be ignorant of all that the Bible says of God's nature.

And as for the Holy Spirit (being God) having sexual intercourse with Mary to conceive Jesus...[V]  The word used for 'overshadowed' in Luke's account of the Holy Spirit conceiving Jesus in Mary, is the same idea conveyed in Gen. 1:2 where the Holy Spirit was said to be 'hovering' over the surface of the waters.  The idea in both passages is that the Holy Spirit was 'brooding' and 'creating', not having sex.
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Mustardseed
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« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2003, 20:19:54 »

Exothen

Point taken and Beth sorry (I seem to have issues will work on that)
How about the scripture that says.

Let us make man in our own image male and female created he them.

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« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2003, 12:14:23 »

Regarding both male and female aspects of divinity, it is interesting that in the Dead sea scrolls, possibly some of the earliest christian documents, there is a dual aspect. As well as the 'heavenly father' in heaven, we also have the 'earthly mother' who resides in the earth. The Earthly mother is responsible for all the plants and animals and cares for our earthly bodies while the father looks after the heavenly aspect. The Mother also has her own angels of the earth and so on.

There is also a copy of the Lords verse which we are all familiar with, except it is not just the lords verse, right after it you are meant to say the Mother's prayer as well, which follows the same format:
ie: 'our *earthly mother* who resides on *earth*, give us our daily bread', etc

Also while the holy trinity is refered to it is quite different from the version we know today. Rather the trinity is : 'the father, the mother, and the son' which also makes much more sense imo!

As you can see, as christianity was usurped thanks to our old pal emperor constantine, and christianity became a part of the machinery of roman state policy, all the feminine aspects of the old christianity were carefully excised, leaving us with the firmly patriarchal system we are all familiar with.

Douglas

PS in this earlier state we can also see how much earlier christian doctrine *shares* with pagan belief, esp the cobncept of the earth goddess which most Wiccans will be familiar with. This concept has survived in modern christianity in a watered down format, the Virgin Mary is really a form of the mother goddess in veiled form.
Christianity in many ways is a continuation of pagan beliefs, not its great enemy as many christians would have you believe.

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« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2003, 17:48:36 »

I am not sure about this exothen fella' [Wink]he strikes me as somewhat familiar. Well.......if he has resurected it seems he is doing his best to avoid the same mistakes again. I sure hope so , as he does have some interesting input.
Regards MS
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« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2003, 20:20:03 »

Not the same MS, just a friend of the infamous.

God bless,

PF
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timeless
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« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2003, 00:25:48 »

Dear Beth,

I have found your posts to be very interesting.  It is nice to read well thought-out, considerate posts. To me it does not really matter if Jesus lived or is a story about good moral principle -- a story to help guide us to good living and higher spirituality.  I am happy either way though I am still tending towards the believe of Christ incarnate since that is something I would like to believe.  

I do have a question for you though:
I belong to the United Church of Canada (loosely) but hey we are a rather loose church.  One of the major topics of discussion within the United Church of Canada is whether Jesus was married.  

I will post an excerpt from the website below and then would be interested in your comments and what you think the parts of the bible hinting at a marriage symbolically mean.

Excerpt:
The story of Mary with the alabaster jar anointing the feet of Jesus is cited by some scholars as the most direct witness to their marriage. It is in all four Gospels and was a story in which Jesus gave express command that it be preserved. This ceremony was an ancient one among many royal houses in the ancient world, which sealed the marital union between the king and his priestess spouse. We find it mentioned briefly in the Song of Solomon.

Source Link:
http://www.grailchurch.org/marriedjesus.htm

Respectfully,
timeless
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