Dear Jeehad

Consider this. As Christians we cannot use old testament history as a way to condone killing. The old and the new testament are very sharply separated to a Christian. In a manner of speaking Jesus changed the way we understand God. The birth of Jesus was a parting of ways with the Old. (testament) It is to us merely a Historical book, that shown the linage of Jesus, and not Commandments from God, this is why we call our selves Christians.

The Old Testament is very like the Koran, an eye for an eye tooth for tooth . revenge slaughter war etc.
but all this was condemned in the NEW Testament. Jesus presented us with another way and was a complete spiritual revolution, that many did (do) not understand.

Jesus said, "Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account." Matthew 5.11

Jesus said, "You have learnt how it was said to our ancestors: 'You must not kill; and anyone does kill he must answer for it before the court.' But I say this to you: anyone who is angry with his brother will answer for it before the court." Mt. 5.21-22

Jesus said, "You have learnt how it was said: 'Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.' But I say to you, Offer the wicked man no resistance. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; if a man takes you to law and would have your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone orders you to go one mile, go two miles with him." Mt. 5.38-41

Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy; But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those whose persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Mt. 5.43-46

Jesus said, "You will be hated by all men on account of my name; but the man who stands firm to the end will be saved. If they persecute you in one town, take refuge in the next; and if they persecute you in that, take refuge in another." Mt. 10.22-23

Jesus said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; fear him rather who can destroy both body and soul in hell." Mt. 10.28

Jesus said, "If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross and follow me. For anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it." Mt. 16.24-25

Jesus said, "I tell you solemnly, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Mt. 18.3

Jesus said, "See that you never despise any of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven are continually in the presence of my Father in heaven." Mt. 18.10

Jesus said, "anyone who wants to be great among you must be your servant, and anyone who wants to be first among you must be your slave, just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve." Mt. 20.26-28

If you refuse to love, you must remain dead; to hate your brother is to be a murderer, and murderers, as you know, do not have eternal life in them.
—1 John 3.15
Jesus said, "You must love your neighbor as yourself." Mt. 22.40

Jesus said, "I was hungry and you never gave me food; I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink; I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, naked and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me . . . I tell you solemnly, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me." And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life." Mt 25.42-43,45-46

Jesus said, "It is from within, from men's hearts, that evil intentions emerge: fornication, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, malice, deceit, indecency, envy, slander, pride, folly. All these evil things come from within and make a man unclean." Mk. 7.21-23

Jesus said, "you know the commandments: you must not kill..." Mark 10.18

Jesus said, "when you stand in prayer, forgive whatever you have against anybody, so that your Father in heaven may forgive your failings too." Mk. 11.25

Jesus said, "if anyone has two tunics, he must share with the man who has none, and the one with something to eat must do the same." Luke 3.11

Jesus said, "No intimidation! No extortion! Be content with your pay." Lk 3.14

Jesus said, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly." Lk. 6.27-28

Jesus said, "Be compassionate as your Father is compassionate. Do not judge, and you will not be judge yourselves; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned yourselves; grant pardon, and you will be pardoned." Lk 6.27

Jesus said, "why do you call me, "Lord, Lord" and not do what I say?" Lk. 6.46

Jesus said, "What is written in the law? What do you read there? He replied, "You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." "You have answered right," said Jesus "do this and life is yours." Lk 10.26-28

Jesus (on the cross) said, "Father, forgive them, they do not know what they are doing." Lk 23.34

Jesus said, "If there is one of you who has not sinned, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." John. 8.7

Jesus said, "I give you a new commandment: love one another; just as I have loved you, you also must love one another. By this love you have for one another, everyone will know that you are my disciples." Jn. 13.34-35

Jesus said, "Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me;" Jn. 14.21

Jesus said, "This is my commandment: love one another, as I have loved you." Jn. 14.22

Jesus said, "What I command you is to love one another." Jn. 14.27

Jesus said, "If they persecuted me, they will persecute you too; if they kept my word, they will keep yours as well. But it will be on my account that they will do all this, because they do not know the one who sent me." Jn. 15.20-21

Jesus said, "I have told you all this so that you may find peace in me. In the world you will have trouble, but be brave: I have conquered the world." Jn. 16.33

Jesus said, "I have made your name known to them and will continue to make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and so that I may be in them." Jn. 17.26

Jesus said, "mine is not a kingdom of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my men would have fought to prevent my being surrendered to the Jews. But my kingdom is not of this kind." Jn. 18.36

Like the Lion in Narnia (by C.S. Lewis, he spoke and taught us a deeper truth.


My apologies if I make you feel like you live in a cave, I am sure you do not. I was merely trying to soften the rhetoric between us, and felt quite bad that I had engaged in such a heated debate. I suppose my apology was not accepted. It seems to me that you have made up your mind that I am wrong, and enemy of the truth,that you have been offended and therefore you will not be appeased. There is not much more that I can do. It seems we nolonger are having a discussion about our respective beliefs, but an argument where emotions hurts pride and ego are more important than the sharing of information. If that is the case, I do not want to be a part of it.

Regards Mustardseed



 

The Hebrew stories which form the core of the OT are themselves derived from even earlier Sumerian legends. The myths of the great flood etc were common mesopotamian myths.

The Jews, being brought up in this cultural environment were no different but they adapted the mythology and interpreted it in their own way, as did everyone else.

For the ealiest stories of the Flood, read the Epic of Gilgamesh.
In the original Sumerian mytholology, it was the Gods who were peeved off with humanity and so decided to wipe the slate clean and start again. The version in the OT replaces 'the Gods' with 'God' but the basic story is the same.

The Jews did us a service as the OT is actually a great compendium of ancient mesopotamian mythology, much of which would have been lost if it had not been recorded. Although interpreted according to their own world view, it is not hard to strip this veneer away and see the ancient stories in their original Sumerian form.

I would definately recommend the Epic of Gilgamesh for those who havent read it. This never got directly included in the OT although the flood element did, but it is even more amazing as it is a direct piece of literature straight from ancient Sumer.

Jeehad:

Nothing develops in isolation or springs up fully formed at once:
Jewish religion and world view was influenced and continued on from ancient mesopotamian religion and mythology, Chirstianity was then influenced through Jewish and pagan neo-platonist thought, and then Islam was a continuation again from Christian thought. That is the way of things.

Mustardseed,

You know, such is the domination of political correctness in Britain today that you would probably not be allowed to say what you just did there.

You might even be accusesed of being a racist or at least 'islama-phobic'!

The doctrine of political correctness is destroying free speech in Britain. I'm sure there is a similar problem in the US, but believe me, its far worse here!

umm...sounds like you are describing the crusades to me!


I do not believe you can draw that assumption based on the countries you listed. Without having any data whatsoever in this matter, I would hypothesize that the exact same things could be used to describe the vast majority of christians in those countries. I think it has less to do with religion and more to do with the respective country's social/education system.

I would argue that the educational level between muslims and christians here in the US is probably consistent. Not because of the religion, but because they live in the same country and have access to the same educational system. You cannot compare the education of christians in the US to muslims in Afghanistan. Its the epitome of an apple to orange comparison.

I had posted one warning thus far, but this discussion seems to be continuing to degrade. Any further inflammatory posts, regardless of the poster, and I will lock this thread.

My point is that you are making broad generalizations without seeming to take in to account other factors. The conclusion you draw, based on what you've posted, is akin to someone saying that the vast majority of blacks in Nigeria are ignorant, therefore the vast majority of blacks everywhere are ignorant. I would have the same issues with that statment as I do with the one you made regarding muslims. Education is not a factor of religion, it is a factor of society and money. I do not doubt that the vast majority of muslims in those countries are uneducated. In fact, I said that I would agree that they probably are. However, I also said that the same is probably true regarding christains and any other religion in those countries. Education is linked to money as well as society; not religion.

As a moderator, my job is to make sure that each member is free to post their own views. However, those views need to be expressed with respect to the other members. Even you have posted several times in this thread that the discussion is degrading. It should not be surprising that a moderator has now made two warnings regarding the quality of the posts. The warnings are geared to both you and Jeehad. So contrary to what you believe, there is no political agenda. The forum is meant to be a free exchange of similar to diverse opinions. As long as all members post respectfully to one another, the discussion can continue as long as you want to continue it.

I sooooo agree with this political correct sickness...  I'm not claiming to know one thing about this tete a' tete between you two but I think you both have pretty much kept it as calm as can be expected when it comes to such a subject matter.  Both have had their little personal stabs from what I can see.  No harm no foul from where I sit, but that's me.    Heck, where was the political correctness when I was being called all sorts of names under the sun by certain members...??

*rings a bell*  Shake hands and no hitting under the belt. 

lool and MustardSeed you still STILL fail to show me how Islam OR WHERE Islam promotes the killing of innocence. First of all, the actions of a group of people should never be portrayed or be attached as a stigma to the whole of the people. Hitler was not a muslim? Could I accuse that all Germans are Nazis? No, because that would be completely ignorant. The religion of Islam stems from the root word salam which means PEACE. ?The main principles of Islam is PEACE. You fail to realize this because this is in fact the CENTRAL basis of this religion. You Clearly have shown me your lack of understanding of your VERY OWN bible. Please Mustard get a copy of the Bible and read it over again and I'm sure your going to notice such brutality, then compare it with the verses of the Holy Quran.

Dear MustardSeed, I will now begin explainin each verse for you Cheesy

"2.98":    Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.

I do not see how this promotes hatred and anger? Surely God does not love those who are lead astray? Those who murder steal rape and promote hatred are enemies of God. God loves those who are just, those who are pious men in the eyes. This is also the central pricinipality of Christianity. Also, surat  al baqarah is also referring to the meccans as the un belivers. If you knew ANYTHING about Arab history, you will notice the brutality of the Meccans.


"2.161":    Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;

Again the same as the first verse. An unbeliver is known as a kufr one who commites sins. The message of Islam tells you to love your brothers and sisters, do not incite hatred among people and once you break these moral codes you are surely on a destructive path. Christianity throws men in Heaven for eternity if you don't accept Jesus although in Islam you will be thrown in hell for a certain period of time depending on your sins. And Surely God in Christianity does not love those who turn away from him? SO giving me these 2 verses is accepting your hypocricy isnt it?


Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

looool... When the Meccans were coming to attack the Muslims who sought refuge in Medina the Angel Gabriel gave Muhammad a revelation to fight them back. I HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY suggest you read the entire chapter it will be MUCH more clear to you There are 3 differnt battles in which the Muslims had to take place in to fight against Meccans. Countless number of verses in the Quran commanded Muhammed to ONLY fight when being fought at. Therefore Fighting for your own defense is the principality of Islam. But God has certain guidelines of fighting which is outlined in many Hadiths.



"2.193":    And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.


Dude... The verse you posted and this verse completely dont match also its the same explanation as above:P Notice there in the same chapter?


"2.216":    Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.


When the Meccans were coming to slaughter the Muslims, the Quranic verse stated that they must all fight to defend themselves. I don't see ANYTHING wrong with it... If a giant army of Mexicans come to invade America do they have the right to fight??? Quran never tells humanity to invade countries because they are disbelievers and as I mentioned in an earlier post about taking 1 verse and portraying it as the central message without reading the book as a whole was essential.


"3.140":    If a wound has afflicted you (at Ohud), a wound like it has also afflicted the (unbelieving) people; and We bring these days to men by turns, and that Allah may know those who believe and take witnesses from among you; and Allah does not love the unjust.

"3.141":    And that He may purge those who believe and deprive the unbelievers of blessings.

"3.142":    Do you think that you will enter the garden while Allah has not yet known those who strive hard from among you, and (He has not) known the patient.

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76
The battle of Ohud was a battle in which the meccans attacked a group of muslims. SO the Muslims had to fight back(this was known as Ohud). Remember, the Meccans were a powerful army at the time, they  hated Muhammds message because it spread VERY FAST. Powerful men of the society took a liking to it WHY? because it colved many social problems within that particular society. Arabia was enthrived with murder, rape, drunkness etc etc and Islam called upon man to unite as beings and to follow the path of righteousness. So the Meccans HATED it and tried to fight the muslims countless number of times. In fact when the Muslim people were a small number, living in Mecca they were persecuted... tortured and the message came for them to leave out of Mecca. Now, tell me Doesn't it say in Christianity whoever dies a Christian? Or dies defending Gods religion will surely enter paradise?  Your twisted view of a martyr is one who has BOMBS strapped to his body which is totally false. A martyr is one who dies for the cause of God.



"4.89":    They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

I get this verse ALOT from people and the explanation is rather simple. A muslim piller is to perform HAJJ(the pilgrimage to mecca) at least once in a lifetime. Note the K'aabah(the site of pilgramige) belonged to the Meccan arabs. So, as the Muslims entered Mecca to perform there piglramige God commanded them at first NOT to fight them leave them be, BUT THEN HE SAYS If they desist against you THEN fight them. I'm sure this is an acceptable sanction. Think about it, IF I entered a Church and ravaged out disrupting you from your worship and threatened to kill you all... I'd get shot!!! this is exactly what happened. And this entire chapter speaks about it in segments.


"5.54":    O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.

WHERE DID YOU PULL THAT VERSE OUT OF... The above is the correct 1...


"8.36":    Surely those who disbelieve spend their wealth to hinder (people) from the way of Allah; so they shall spend it, then it shall be to them an intense regret, then they shall be overcome; and those who disbelieve shall be driven together to hell.

"8.37":    That Allah might separate the impure from the good, and put the impure, some of it upon the other, and pile it up together, then cast it into hell; these it is that are the losers.

"8.38":    Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed.

"8.39":    And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.


These verses are explained.. When Muhammed and his peple fled Mecca, the Meccans found an oppurtunity to take there Goods and sell it in trade. The caravans were set out so the Muslims HAD THE RIGHT to return there goods, as they came upon the caravans to get them returend what happened next was the Meccan army was awaiting them for battle. his is known as the battle of Badr. A successfully moment in history for the Muslims, where they fought 10 thousand Meccans with only 400 soldiers with Gods grace and mercy.

"8.67":    It is not fit for a prophet that he should take captives unless he has fought and triumphed in the land; you desire the frail goods of this world, while Allah desires (for you) the hereafter; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

An important thing you must know. Held captive isn't always pleasing in the eyes of people. God is telling mankind NOT to take captives UNLESS it is nessesary. I assure you back then being held captive was regarded as a dishonor.


When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

loool, exactly as I was explaining earlier. In fact it is used as proof to back up wat I asid earlier:P During a month known as HARAM, one cannot even kill a fly. Muslims were required to restrain the opression the Meccans brought to them during there pilgramige THEN fight them back after the month was over. Again self defense nothing wrong with that.

"9.28":    O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.

In the Islamci religion BEFORE one must enter a mosque, read the Quran or even do Prayer, you must reach a state of fitrah(purity). One must perform wuduh to cleanse his body or else he is not permitted such. This goes to Muslims AND non muslims.

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29

Thsi exact surah (the immunity) speaks about the pilgramige as I mentioned earlier which MUSLIMS HAVE EVERY RIGHT to fight back against ignorant people who fight them during there worship.If you read the Surah you are going to see my point ^.-/


When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4

Smiting of the neck eh. Tell me.. would you rather die by hanging? Or smited from the neck??? For me I'd rather be killed from the neck because all my central nerve known as the jugula lies in there. these nerves as soon as punctured destroy all nerves from the body making pain feel limitless. So would you rather feel pain? Or die without feeling pain? Remember 1400 years ago there were no such thing as morphine


"48.25":    It is they who disbelieved and turned you away from the Sacred Mosque and (turned off) the offering withheld from arriving at its destined place; and were it not for the believing men and the believing women, whom, not having known, you might have trodden down, and thus something hateful might have afflicted you on their account without knowledge -- so that Allah may cause to enter into His mercy whomsoever He pleases; had they been widely separated one from another, We would surely have punished those who disbelieved from among them with a painful punishment.

"48.29":    Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.

WHERE THE HEC DID YOU GET THE TRANSLATION FROM.... Please stop forging the Quranic translations to fit your ignorance.




Let me give you an example of what you are doing

Jimmy when to school
Jimmy saw bob
Jimmy said hello
Bob slapped jimmy
bob laughed at Jimmy
Jimmy punched bob



OMG Jimmy punched bob Jimmy is a terrorist. He must be held captive him and his religion.. lool  as you can se you failed to read the previous parts of WHY Jimmy did so? The Quran tells man never to fight unless the conditions are nessesary. meaning if someone is attacking you, you have the right to attack back as SELF DEFENSE with certain laws. You can only fight THOSE WHO ARE FIGHTING YOU nothing else. Meaning, even innocent lives of the enemy CANNOT BE TAKEN. EVEN A TREE has been forsaken to be hurt during such times. The Noble prophet Muhammed(pbuh) spoke right in front of those WHO KILLED HIS VERY OWN FAMILY. Imagine... He sat there making peace agreements as allah commanded to make peace first! They refused to do so and commanded him to stop preaching this religion. So the Meccans took hostility against him and his followers, tried to assassinate him many times but they failed through Gods grace and mercy.

Salam ou alakoum and I truly hope this post has inspired you to read the Holy Quran and find out that my words are true.

Peace!