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Author Topic: "The Rock of Truth" by Arthur Findlay  (Read 8309 times)
Beth
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« on: September 23, 2003, 01:46:20 »

Nick,

Also known as the Book of Q it is currently held by many scholars (after a great deal of analysis) that the Gospels all originated from ONE document that was just "a list" of the things that Jesus said, and perhaps places that he went.  

They come to this conclusion through dating the fragments that we have, analyzing the writing style used, the story structure, the grammar, etc. of Matthew, Luke and John, and they suggest that they were all written from The Book of Mark.  Mark was then studied, and it was ascertained that it too came from some other source, and ergo the idea of this "list" or a now "lost book" was conceived.

This is also like a "chicken and egg problem" where we have no evidence of the "chicken" but we know there must have been one!  SO, we are trying (and I say WE very loosely) to reconstruct the chicken!!

IN MY OPINION, the things that Paul was writing about were quite possibly "the mysteries" of "initiation" that he thought he was supposed to share with the world.  IN MY OPINION, the Gospels (and even the Book of Q, if it ever existed) was written in the language of the mystics.  The sayings are "wisdom sayings" that tell us of spiritual things.  The "places" that Jesus went were perhaps added to Q, or after Q, in order to continue to build upon the mystics' story (message.)

I hope this makes sense!!

Peace,
Beth
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Nick
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« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2003, 22:33:13 »

Thanks for that Beth. This is fascinating information. The book I mentioned by Arthur Findlay continues to assert some interesting concepts regarding the early christian era.

He talks about Mithra(ism) being a prominent belief system until Constantine decided on christianity. Also, that a lot of the important dates, events and belief concepts in christianity come from Mithraism and important pagan beliefs.

He writes that nothing was recorded in the archives of Rome about what the gospels tell us of what happened to Jesus. Nor that any of the Roman historians of the time recorded anything about this.

Findlay asserts that it is interesting how none of the famous men of high intellectual level in the first century such as Plutarch, Pliny, Seneca, Tacitus, Epictetus and many others ever mentioned any of the miracles related in the gospels. He states that if all that the gospels report as happened to Jesus is true, "Isn't it extraordinary that those great thinkers and writers couldn't obtain this information from the christians in their own time?"  He correctly states: "What a wonderful story it would have been, what a sensation it would have caused, and yet their writings ignore it all!"

Findlay goes on to say that "Is it not also remarkable that, in spite of the marvelous works reported as being performed by Jesus, the Jews during his life considered him only a blasphemer, as one who wished to upset the beliefs of the people in the orthodox religion of his day? It is quite contrary to all reason that they should have considered him only as such if the gospel stories are true."

"Even among savages, one who was believed to have the power to bring the dead back to life would never have been made to suffer and die. Surely it is more rational to accept the account of Jesus as given in the Jewish Talmud as the more probable story. The Talmud, containing the traditional laws of the Jews, and dating back to the 2nd century, gives a very different story about Jesus from what is contained in the Gospels. There the only reference made to him is the statement that he was arrested for blasphemy, was tried in the Jewish court, condemned, stoned, and then hanged on a tree, which, by the way, agrees with what we are told in Acts xiii, 29 , as to how he died."

"This is a much more probable story than the gospel legends, filled with marvelous and miraculous occurrences, which no contemporary of Jesus considered worthy to record."

As I said, the book The Rock of Truth is quite interesting and hard to put down. More to follow.

{p.s. If you haven't read the book let me know as I have an extra copy that you can have.)


Very best,
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« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2003, 22:33:13 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Beth
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« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2003, 01:41:25 »

Nick,

No...I have not read this book, but it certainly looks like this guy and I have come to A LOT of the same conclusions!! [8D]

I would really like to read it!!  Thank you for sharing!

-bb
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« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2003, 16:24:30 »

I should rename this topic The Rock of Truth after Arthur Findlay's book however I'll defer to Beth on that. What I will do is post a website where any interested member can order a copy. If you are so inclined here's the link:

http://www.snu.org.uk/index2.htm


Findlay breaks the book down into two parts. It is the first part consisting of six chapters however, where he discusses the origin of Christianity, its sacred books, its teachings, and the consequences of those teachings. He states that the Christian church has no historical basis for the claims it makes with regard to Jesus. That the claims are all based on tradition, on stories which passed from one to another, and that no one can say whether, as they are now recorded in print, they are in any way like the original statements.

He also states in the book that "Besides having no historic basis, the claims made by Christians for Jesus are now found to have been made by other religions about their saviours long before the Christian era."

Findlay also writes "If we read about an everyday event, an earthquake, for instance, and were told that this event had occurred nineteen hundred years ago, and then discovered that the story had been handed down by word of mouth for forty years or so, to be ultimately recorded in writing. Then we found out that this recording was done by someone who was extremely ignorant of the art, that in those days accurate thinking and writing were not considered important, and that the original had been lost. However, copies of the original had been made, and lost, but copies of the copies existed, though all the copies in existence differed from each other. Would we be inclined to believe that the details so recorded were in any way reliable?"

The above are but brief excerpts. However when read in the context of the chapters of the book, they give greater weight and meaning to the author's statements. This book is a must read for any critical thinking person.


Very best,
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Beth
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« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2003, 02:40:23 »

Nick,

As you can see--the topic has now been changed!![8D]

Since I just started reading the book, I will have to wait a few days before I make any comments.  BUT, so far--tis' an excellent read!![Cheesy]
Maybe some more people will order and read it and we can really get a good discussion going here!  

Peace,
Beth
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« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2003, 02:40:23 »



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Adrian
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« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2003, 11:48:11 »

Greetings everyone,

I would like to request that this topic be made sticky; I could do it myself but you good people are moderators and it is your topic [Smiley]

I believe that one of the very cornerstones of humanity turning back towards the light and its true destiny is to reveal the creed and dogma of religion for what it really is; no mean task but has to be done.

Very interesting topic; Arthur Findlay wrote some other classic including The Edge of the Etheric and The Unfolding Universe a most important trilogy with "The Rock of Truth".

A full list of Arthur Findlay's books can be found here:

http://www.psychic-press.sageweb.co.uk/arthurfindlay.htm

This also looks like an excellent work:

THE PSYCHIC STREAM
 
Arthur Findlay


The Psychic Stream has been the cause of every religion, the interaction between the Earth and the etheric realms. The outcome of 35 years of study, this book traces the streams influence upon religious thought throughout the ages.  

Thank you Nick for raising this important topic!

With best regards,

Adrian.
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Nick
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« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2003, 13:56:40 »

Thank you Beth for renaming the topic and thank you Adrian for the website link and the further information on Arthur Findlay's other books. [Smiley] I do plan on reading the other two works from the trilogy and so have ordered them. I hope others get the desire to at least read The Rock of Truth as it is extremely worthwhile in my opinion. Also, The Psychic Stream looks to be a good read as well.

There are a few more excerpts I'd like to post as they are relevant to the foregoing posts I've made. In his chapter entitled 'Reconstruction', Findlay writes: "At the risk of repetition, I wish to make my position quite clear, so that there may be no misunderstanding. Christianity, it will be admitted by everybody, originated in an age of intense ignorance. It was born at a time when hardly anyone could read or write, and even those who could write had very poor material to work upon. At that time paper was unknown, and anything that was written was on papyrus, manufactured from reeds and rushes. Accuracy of speech or thought was hardly known. Facts had not the value then that they have now, and greatly exaggerated stories were told and circulated about events, especially when those events were of an unusual character. Anything unusual, or not understood, was considered to be the direct act of God or the gods."

He continues: "It is only within the last three centuries that we have come to realise that the universe is governed by law and order, and that every event is but one incident in an unbroken chain of cause and effect. The workings of nature in years gone by were not in the least understood. Nineteen hundred years ago nothing whatever was known by the masses about Astronomy, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, the art of healing or any of the other sciences. In Palestine, at the time of the birth of Jesus, the people...were poor, ignorant and superstitious."

"From this well of ignorance, the majority in Europe and America draw all their information with regard to their religious beliefs. In the old days they drank long and deep, but, as they advanced in intelligence, the draughts became lighter and less frequent."  

This book was first written by Arthur Findlay in 1933. The copy I have is the twenty-fourth printing from 1999. So when the author references, for example time frames, they should be noted in light of when he wrote the book. There is much more good information contained in the book. I should mention that Arthur Findlay was born in Glasgow in 1883 and died in July, 1964. The book (in the beginning section entitled 'The Author') indicates the author "came from a long line of ancestors who have been famous in Scottish history." It also points out the author's educational and business accomplishments, which were quite impressive. The book also states: "Arthur Findlay, however, is best known to the public through his books and addresses on History, Spiritualism, Mythology and Religion."

That forward section of the book describes my view of the author as it concludes: "To bring light into dark places, to enlarge the vision and increase humanity's intellectual horizon, has been the aim of many pioneers of the past, and, in the realm of history and religion, Arthur Findlay ranks with other torch bearers who have carried forward the light of knowledge."  


Very best,
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« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2003, 14:44:25 »

Greetings Nick,

Thanks again for this information! I really must purchase these books. Fortunately the publishers are based in the UK so I will probably buy them directrly.

I have suggested in the bibliography topic that we have a recommended reading topic as well, a sort of "required reading", with the best of the bibliography, and also books such as those by Arthur Findlay.

With best regards,

Adrian.
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Beth
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« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2003, 20:55:50 »

Nick,

I am still not quite finished with Findlay, but I stopped to read The Kabylion--GREAT READ!  I am about half way through with it.  I found a copy on the internet at:  http://kybalion.home.att.net/kybalion.html

So far it is good sound philosophy--well written too!

I will have more to say on both soon!

Peace,[Smiley]
Beth
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« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2003, 21:53:12 »

Ha ha ha... I almost regret saying this (as I am a bibliophile and my wife already thinks I have too many books...) I am going to get the books mentioned here.  Thanks for contributing to my delinquency folks!  Ha ha ha!
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« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2003, 14:34:52 »

I hope others will be prompted to read the books mentioned above. Regarding The Rock of Truth, I thought it would be fitting to add a bit from the Epilogue here.

Findlay, in the Epilogue to The Rock of Truth, writes of the nature of Mind as a developing, expanding, growing substance. He writes: "Infinite Mind counts not our years on earth when time is infinite. When our work here is done it is but continued elsewhere, and death is no more than a bend in the road on which we are forever travelling."

He writes of the limitations of our physical efforts to define the Divine Mind "of which we are each and all a part", writing: "Our ignorant ancestors, believing that all had been revealed to them, recorded their beliefs in words on stone, on skins and parchments. Thus they produced the entire story of our origin and our destiny, and to this day their faithful followers in our midst strive in every way to justify it all" (emphasis added).

The author cautions against people not thinking for themselves, and becoming slaves to tradition. His last paragraph in the book reads as follows: "That this book may make clear to all the fundamental certainties of life, and also help the orthodox, belonging to all the world's different faiths, to extricate themselves from the quicksands of superstition and reach the rock of truth, is the author's earnest hope and desire."



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« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2003, 18:43:13 »

In a book I am now reading entitled The Rock of Truth by Arthur Findlay (see additional posts below for a description and recommendation of this excellent book), reference is made to the "reconstructed Quelle document". Specifically, to quote the book:

"The earliest trace we have of an account of the life of Jesus describes him only in human terms. The reconstructed Quelle document (emphasis added), a Greek translation of an earlier Aramaic document, which is quite as early as the early part of Mark, and is the farthest back we can get, makes no reference to the miraculous. The birth, death and resurrection legends are not referred to, only his simple teaching. This then is the best evidence we have of the real Jesus, a teacher and reformer, and but for the idea evolved in the mind of Paul that he was the Messiah, he would never have been regarded as anything else."

My questions would be whether anyone has come across other references to the Quelle document, and what thoughts are there about Findlay's above comments regarding the substance of this document?


Very best,
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« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2005, 20:25:17 »

There is a section in Part II of The Rock of Truth that should be mentioned. It is entitled Personal Responsibility. What it comes down to is how we each must be accountable for our every act and omission, but not in the way religious folk might think.

Findlay writes: "Each one of us is responsible for his own actions and thoughts. Our mental make-up determines our conditions hereafter, and no one need be deluded by the idea that belief in some vicarious atonement is going to alter the position each mind determines for itself."

Rather than, solely by faith being absolved from our sins and shortcomings, we each have to bear the consequences of them and "that as we sow, so shall we reap". The law of cause and effect applies. What Findlay writes in this regard, reminds me a great deal of principles of Hermetic Philosophy in The Kybalion (another great book which I strongly recommend).

Nick
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