Women & Islam...

[Mustardseed]

Just so much talk and explaining "in theory and according to the sunnah and the koran" and bla bla. In real life Islam is a religion of suppression and women have virtually NO real rights. Please see the following video...................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iOrrNY4Q-c&feature=related

and cry.............


and if you are interested watch the rest.................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCpXmfmLuzc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi1bDms5OfM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d-A8au4cyI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owCE8FYgASU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoPUNL7ts6E&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1teDaaKlxU&feature=related

[Mustardseed]

Women and Islam, Men and Islam, Children and Islam......to me it seems all to be the same. Lets instead talk about LIFE and ISLAM, ................what is LIFE like in an Islamic country.

I am fully aware that most Muslims abhor the unjust deeds done in the name of Islam. They defend their religion with a gusto. In the process they inevitably bring up the argument that crimes are also committed in the name of Christianity.........this is their main line of justification. The problem is, that while it is true that crimes have been committed in the name of Christianity, i.e. witch hunts, Crusades, and the inquisition etc, it is a thing of the past. IT does not happen anymore, but ceased somewhere in the 1600s, when the west slowly grew and became CIVILIZED.

As Christianity developed and matured, and as it allowed its followers freedom of thought and expression, many left the faith and created what is now the western world. A system that is at least to some degree free. It has its faults and its grotesque "sideshows" but generally speaking.................. it is a free world. You Muslims women who post here for the most parts LIVE in the west, one might ask WHY. If you love Islam so much and if you are so eager to live the Muslim dream, why not immigrate to a Muslim state. It is obvious isn't it...............because in a Muslim state you will become oppressed by SHARIA, because Islam  did not evolve, and because it is totalitarian in nature. It is a political system, manufactured to control and oppress a populace, which it does very well. In Islamic countries, men are given power over women, and Mullahs and Immams, are given the power over ordinary people. That is a lot of power to be given to man.

It is so easy to defend the Principle of Islam, yet most of you who do so have no indebth understanding of your own Religion.  Tell me Anelie....have you read the Koran in its entirety, how about the Sunnah. Have you studied the theories and Hadith interpretations by which you are expected to live, such as Bukhari and Muslim etc. Do you have an up to date understanding of the various Fathwas issued to date...........I would guess no. Maybe I am wrong..then tell me.

So if you have read the above and are up to date on your own religion and what it actually teaches lets talk about that. If not maybe you should. Maybe you should study your own religion and what it actually claims as the truth, before you defend it. As of now you tend to defend something you have only a perifial knowledge about, a glorified personal interpretation of what you "would like" Islam to be.

It is not a realistic description of what Islam IS.

Regards Mustardseed

[Stookie]

Sad stuff:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,418025,00.html

"A 17-year-old Pakistani girl forced to marry a 45-year-old when she was only nine was reportedly killed by her parents, according to the Weekend Australian.

The murder has intensified despair among human rights workers in Pakistan over a recent spate of "honor killings," in which two women and three teenage school girls were buried alive in Baluchistan Province because they wanted to marry the men of their choice.

Saira Nusrat Bibi was successfully fighting a legal battle to have her marriage annulled. As she left court in the Punjabi city of Sahiwal, she was surrounded by a group of men reportedly sent by her parents, and shot in front of police, The Australian reported.

The Baluchistan case was worsened by an attempt by a member of the country's national parliament, Senator Israr Ullah Zehri, to defend it, telling colleagues that "these are centuries-old traditions and I will continue to defend them,” The Australian reports."

[Venus_Goddess_of_Love]

This is sickening - hanging a 17 year old woman because she was abused and raped by a government official.  These people have no compassion for human life, and absolutely no logical or rational thinking whatsoever.  How can anyone defend a religion such as this?  Anelie, how would you feel if you or your daughter were in that position?

[Synergy]

That makes me soooooo deeply mad inside.  To execute a young girl because she was a victim! 

I wonder what happened to the government official!?  Probably nothing...

[abu-usaama]

you know what makes me laugh?

how ignorant people like you on this forum are. you know nothing about Islam. you know nothing of the differences between Islam and culture. you people are the truly the most ignorant people on the planet.

honor killings has nothing to do with Islam, whatsoever. t he very fact im mentioning this makes me feel like a crapbag, because i have to stoop down to your level of stupidity for a  brief moment.

you actually think, for some reason, that the states in the Muslim world that are supported by America and have been waging a constant war against Shariah, have anything to do with Shariah! Wow! You know a lot!!

If there was an actual Muslim state, free from the yokage of secular tyranny and American dominance, I would go there and I wouldnt hesitate!

as for you mustardseed, youre just an arrogant dweeb that gets delight out of expressing your conjectural opinions and crap.



go ahead, go worship freedom and your man-made nonsense!

[AmbientSound]

Insults aren't going to solve anything.

[Mustardseed]

you know what makes me laugh?

You are not laughing Usama you are angry and upset, and aggressive.

how ignorant people like you on this forum are.

We are not ignorant Usama, for the most part we are well educated, knowledgeable, and experienced. Many have educations probably surpassing yours, and a fair lot of us have experienced more facets of life than you.

you know nothing about Islam.

Well here I admit that I am not sure that the majority on the list knows about Islam. I can assure you that I KNOW. Though you naturally do not believe it I have lived a major part of my life in Islamic countries, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan Pakistan and Malaysia. I have studied The Koran and the Sunnah as well as major parts of the Hadiths under the guidance of Islamic scholars. I have a in debth understanding of LIFE in an Islamic country. I KNOW about Islam.

you know nothing of the differences between Islam and culture. you people are the truly the most ignorant people on the planet.

Well Usama that is an allegation, I realise that there is a difference, but my argument is not with culture my argument is with ISLAM. As far as being the most ignorant people on the planet................well..........ummmm.....whatever  

honor killings has nothing to do with Islam, whatsoever. t he very fact im mentioning this makes me feel like a crapbag, because i have to stoop down to your level of stupidity for a  brief moment.

Dont feel like a crapbag Usama. No reason  . Honor killings in itself may have nothing to do with Islam according to the doctrine of Zina, it should be punishable for both sexes, but the fact remains that under ISLAMIC JURISPRUDENCE it is accepted as a necessary evil and very rarely is a man convicted for this. Thats what the problem is. Islam fails to protect the innocent

you actually think, for some reason, that the states in the Muslim world that are supported by America and have been waging a constant war against Shariah, have anything to do with Shariah! Wow! You know a lot!!

This statement makes no sense to me, could you elaborate.

If there was an actual Muslim state, free from the yokage of secular tyranny and American dominance, I would go there and I wouldnt hesitate!

The fact is that there are several countries that claim to be under sharia............not American dominance by a long shot,


Here we go.

Islamic countries:

Countries which recognize Islam as their official religion.

Afghanistan (Islamic state)
Algeria
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Brunei
Comoros
Egypt
Indonesia (recognize Islam as the six recognized religion, with Protestantism, Catholic, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism. Indonesia use Islamic jurisprudence in marriage and another jurisprudence.
Iran (Islamic state)
Iraq
Jordan
Kuwait
Libya
Malaysia
Maldives
Mauritania
Morocco
Oman
Pakistan (Islamic state)
Qatar
Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
Saudi Arabia (Islamic kingdom)
Somalia
Somaliland
Tunisia[5]
United Arab Emirates
Yemen (Islamic state)

I think I missed a few, but what the heck........

Soooo.....go Usama .......go, do not hesitate   if you do not believe that there is one such state why not convince your fellow Muslim brothers in one of these countries, to make one. Change from within. Why are YOU living in a western country..............I will tell you why. You have a snowballs chance in HELL of making a difference, but will most likely be killed by your fellow MUSLIMS if you criticize their interpretation of Islam. So much for free speech. The only place you can speak up is among the KAFFIR, the only place you are safe from persecution from your fellow Muslims is among the KAFFIR.

as for you mustardseed, youre just an arrogant dweeb that gets delight out of expressing your conjectural opinions and crap.

Wow Osama, an arrogant Dweeb, for the uninitiated. Here is the definition:

Dweeb: an unsophisticated, obnoxious, person, (with very few exceptions, male) often a newbie, who, through ignorant posting, annoys, irritates and otherwise frustrates the regulars in a chat room or other online communication forum. Dweebs are often interested in meeting members of the opposite sex and pursuing women by exaggerating and boasting about themselves along with other annoying and inappropriate behavior.

My humility forbids me to speak of myself, my only argument against the above is the term Ignorant. I am not ignorant Usama.....not ignorant at all, on the contrary i know what I am talking about. You know that and I know that.......so drop the insults.

go ahead, go worship freedom and your man-made nonsense!

Thankyou very much

Regards Mustardseed

[AmbientSound]

My definition of life:

Birth begins experience. Experience forms definitions. Definitions form values. Values channel awareness. Awareness forms goals. Goals form paths. Paths form choices. Choices form experiences. And death breaks the cycle.

Killing is just another way of giving up.

Liars cheat themselves out of trust and friendship, and therefore spiritual evolution.

There is no heaven, it does not exist. For heaven is a state of being, and that state cannot be sustained. If you put one little red brush stroke on a canvas, it stands out, but when you paint the entire canvas red, all you end up with is a red canvas. And if all you see is red, then red ceases to be a color. That is the state of hell, not heaven. If all you see is good, then good ceases to exist for you, and everything bad stands out. Good should be in the foreground, not the background.

[edit] actually, there is a heaven, but it is not as we are taught in the Good Books of this world. Heaven is the state of having learned all the lessons- knowing where to be and when, having full awareness of everything that goes on in the Universe, knowing yourself completely and thoroughly, being aware of how different things affect you, etc.

No offense to anyone. Obviously, these are my beliefs, and if they don't ring true to you, ignore me.

[Venus_Goddess_of_Love]

Mustardseed - I applaud you for keeping your cool and maintaining your integrity under the circumstances.  You are setting the standards and should be proud of yourself.

 

[AmbientSound]

The laws decreeing death for women who are raped, want a divorce, or who wish to marry who they choose are unjust. I don't care what ANY Muslim book says or how long it has been going on. It is unjust. Period. End of story. There is nothing left to argue about. This phenomenon needs to stop, now, and so does the practice of genital mutilation.

[AmbientSound]

I'm not trying to turn this into a game of 'let's bash the Muslims,' nor am I making accusations against anyone here, but I just had a thought I wanted to share and discuss (I suppose it could also translate into a question I am asking). I perceive that there is a discrepancy with a concept mentioned in other threads about Islam that I have read: the idea that Muslims are free because they have surrendered to God (Allah), while non-Muslims are slaves under the rule of man.

First, what is the person joining surrendering? In other words, what are they giving up when they become a Muslim? I have only heard the word 'surrender' used in the context of war or conflict. Is there a war or conflict (even if only metaphorical) in which the person is surrendering? If so, who is involved?

Second, if Muslims are truly free, then why is anyone free to become a Muslim without fear of endangerment to their physical existence, but no one is free of the possible threat that someone will come after them to kill them- even if they move half-way around the world- for leaving? I'm always hearing/reading things in the news about people- more often women- who are killed because they choose to leave the religion and marry someone of their own choosing, or they want to experience a different way of life forbidden in Islamic holy scripture. This does not seem fair, just, kind, or necessary to me. If they are leaving, it is because they do not, as Muslims, wish to violate the holy ordinances described/prescribed within the scripture. They are choosing a different path. So why should that matter enough to other Muslims that someone should go after that person and kill them?

If this is what Muslims call freedom, then I have a very different definition. Therefore, if there is a translation issue, it needs to be corrected as soon as possible to make certain that there are no misunderstandings between anyone wishing to join and those who are already Muslims. Without proper and successful communication, no meaningful discourse can occur, and whoever joins is basing their decision on a belief in something that is not true- a falsehood.

If that falsehood or those falsehoods become(s) the foundation of the newly-converted person's faith, then their entire belief structure is in serious jeopardy and they are not protected in the way or ways that they think they are. So when the truth comes-a-knockin,' it would seem logical to me that anyone who has invested themselves greatly in such beliefs could not help but feel threatened by the truth rather than liberated. A tree that loses a limb loses all the branches that grow upon it- any psychologists (or other qualified and certified individuals) in the house would do well to correct me if what I say is not true. It may save much arguing and flinging of insults.

-I would just like to remind everyone that I am not making any accusation against anyone here-

If Islam is to be free, then there are a few things that need to happen: first, common misunderstandings MUST be addressed and explained clearly. Second, the extremists who are perpetrating violence against anyone for reasons of faith must be stopped and expelled from Islam.

While it may seem rather bold and even arrogant of me, a non-Muslim, to suggest these things, my intention is to help, not harm. There are gaps that must be bridged between Muslims and non-Muslims in order to ensure that future generations in this world will enjoy peace and prosperity, free of fear and violence, as well as other forms of vengeance which any extremists, fighting for any cause, may otherwise take upon each other and those who want nothing to do with their conflict(s).

Let us identify these gaps and close them and be proactive about our shared/collective future rather than reactive.

[anelie.]

Venus: I never said it was okay to kill a girl that was raped by someone, to kill a victim. And I do not support religion doing this. I know that in countries, where islam is an official religion, it happens, but you will not find any support for this kind of acting neither in the Quran nor in the sunna. It is blinded people who do this. And I feel very sorry that it is happening in the world. I am a lawyer and hopefully one day I will fight against these kind of things. Where did it happen? In Pakistan I think? It is such a pity that a country created for muslims constantly acts against the prescriptions of islam, in the worst manner possible.

AmbientSound: Death penalty for apostasy? There is nothing like that in the Quran. On the contrary, the Quran says that for apostasy a person will be punished IN THE HEREAFTER.
I know that the four islamic schools recognize death penalty for muslims that convert. I think it is WRONG.
And I am not the only one, there are muslim scholars who think the same; Unfortunately, the majority of them agrees, which is something I do not understand.

Choice of religion, and conversion, are very personal matters and this decision deals only with relationsip between God and the person. Others have no say in it. It is said in the Quran, there is no compulsion in the religion.  You cannot use force or fear of death to prevent someone from converting, as the real faith comes from the heart. Actually, death penalty for apostasy is possible in these countries: SaudiArabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, Mauritania, and also Pakistan, I guess.

[anelie.]

Mustardseed:

You wrote that when muslims try to defend the atrocities commited in the name of islam, they inevitably talk about crusades etc, which happened in the past. There is no excuse for it, of course, and it is a bad argument, "christians did it as well". etc.

Why are you sending us, western muslims, to islamic countries? I am very much aware that in the western world there is much more freedom. I have responsibility only for myself, I cannot be held liable for all the bad things commited by others. However, I have spend quite a lot of time in Morocco so I know what life is like there and it is possible that I will stay there for a few years, as my husband comes from there and all his family lives there. You know what, his family is just normal, nice, kind people, of course it is a different culture so I had to adjust, but they respect me as a European and I respect them as they are. But I pay more attention to what kind of clothes I wear,  I always make sure that no man in the family can see a part of my belly, legs, etc. My husband' s sisters still live with them (they are not married), but they have their own car and work. Most of the limitating rules, for ex. woman cannot work, cannot walk alone in the street are part of a culture, not islam. In Morocco it depends on a family, whether you come from a countryside or a city, etc. But it is men who have the authority most of the times. Law is inspired by sharia but is constantly changing and coming closer to our western laws.

Yes, I have read the Quran, all of it, I have acquainted myself with hadiths, sharia, etc. As regards sharia, of course it is difficult for us to accept it, and for me as well, I have studied law (that belong to european continental system). So I cannot change my views so easily just because I become muslim. The problem is, as you probably know, we live in a world in which an accent is put on an individual. Of course the protection of the society is important, but no by any means. We care about rights of individuals. But in the past the society was much different, and it was an interest of society that was more important than that of an individual. That' s why it was considered appropriate to cut off someone"s hand for theft, etc; There was a big harm inflicted on a victim, like this he wouldn't steal any more, and it would protect the society. It is a very strict rule, of course. Today, for a theft you will get a fine, or maybe a few months of prison.

I believe that there is one Creator of the Universe. He has created us, put us in our physical bodies and gave us one opportunity to live on the earth; I do not know why, according to the Quran it is to test us both by good and bad things happening to us. In order to succeed, one must prove his perfect character, and show his best qualities, recognize, honour and be thankful to his Creator. Ther will be some people who will be successful who will go to Paradise, whatever it is, as it cannot be described by our "worldly" worlds. The rest will go to hell, I understand that they will be annihilated. It is extremely difficult to go to Paradise, I would say most people will not deserve it, I think, people who will go there will be those who are like some saints in christianity, Francois d' Assisi, etc. It is my opinion. Now I am thinking about Saint Mary, jesus' s mother. Do you think, if she lived in our times, that she would be fighting for a right not to cover her head? ))))))))

I pray and I am thankful to the One who created me; I try to purify my character (it is VERY difficult), be tolerant, open minded, humble, etc. etc, when something bad happens to me, I try to understand that it was a will of God instead of getting angry, I try to understand that all good that happens to me is a blessing from God, for which I should be thankful and not take it for granted, I try to live according to basic good principles, without exception, I am trying to have the best posible relationship with my husband, yes, I am a muslim, I try to obey the will of God, can you tell me, Mustardseed, what's wrong with that?

I feel fulfilled, I did not find this kind of satisfaction in Christianism, nor in astral travel (I have some experience in astral travelling, meditation, even a little bit of clairvoyance) or some new age practices.
Am I doing something wrong? WHy should I stop with it only because there are people out there doing bad thing in the name of islam? I am not responsible for them.

I will translate for you an interesting article about islam written by a member of the European parliament, who spent a half of her life in the Middle East. But it will take me some time, I do not want to waste my Sunday on it:)

Kind regards,

Anelie

[anelie.]

Mustardseed: I just read some of your posts and I found out they you as well spent a half of your life in an Arab country. Well, this is not the point, but it is an interesting article anyway, although, it probably won' t tell you anything new. We'll see. When I have time I will translate a bit of it.