The Astral Pulse

Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences => Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! => Topic started by: Euphoric Sunrise on January 19, 2004, 10:04:06



Title: Proof
Post by: Euphoric Sunrise on January 19, 2004, 10:04:06
There's a common way to prove (to yourself at least) that you exited your body.

Get a playing card, do NOT look at the front of it. Tape it to a window so it is facing outside and you can't see what number and suit it is. Then when you project out of your body, look at the face of the card, go back to your body straight away, look at the card and see if you were right.

Of course, if you want to prove it to other people, it won't be as easy as that [xx(] [:P]


Title: Proof
Post by: stephen~ on January 19, 2004, 10:30:41
In my experience the problem with proving real-time zone projections are real is that you have very limited time before things change.

So recently I did a small test myself using playing cards. Instead of hiding one up and out of the way somewhere I decided to make it as simple as possible and place it as close to my body as possible. My thinking was that even a partial projection would be enough to see it without having to fight my way to it, and because it was so close to my physical body I felt I would see it before I got too tired, it changed, I forgot or stopped caring about it etc.

With my eyes closed I shuffled the pack, removed one and placed it against the arm rest of the sofa. I lay back, relaxed and went to sleep. Within a minute or so I got the vibrations. I thought to myself "This is it!" and 'sat up'.

My vision was dark, I could hardly see anything at all. And I had the feeling I had my eyes tightly shut so I couldn't cheat. I was reluctant to open my eyes in case I opened my physical ones. Normally I am quite relaxed but couldn't help being a little stressed as I knew I was testing myself.

After a couple of seconds of peering in the darkness I began to see the vague outline of the arm of the sofa, and sitting upright in the middle was a rectangular patch of very pale white that I knew was the card. I looked closer at it, and I could see 'spots'. It was unmistakably a playing card, and though it was so dark that I couldn't see barely at all, I could tell it wasn't a picture card. I made a guess at the suit and value of the card, and suddenly was back completely in my body.

When I sat up awake, the card was exactly where I put (I couldn't see at the time I placed it as my eyes were closed, it could have been nearer one end of the sofa arm or the other, but it was in the middle just as I had seen it in the projection). It wasn't the correct card though, but it was a non-picture card.

I wouldn't claim that was anywhere near like 100% proof, but to me it is heading in the right direction. I couldn't see properly, but I saw the type of card it was, and it was in the exact place I left it. Yes there's a fairly high statistical chance that I could have guessed a non-picture card. But I think you have to take what you get, no projection that I have ever experienced into the physical world has ever been 100% accurate, 100% clear or 100% unchanging.

What let me down on this occasion was my vision, partly through my own stress, not wanting to cheat, I wasn't relaxed enough, and I knew I had very little time to see the card. The previous evening I had partially projected and saw the curtains bathed in lamplight, very very clear. I raised my arm and i saw my hand, which disolved partially and I could still see the curtain where my hand had been. On opening my eyes the scene was excatly right (light, reflections shadows and positions) which inspired me to try to card test the next afternoon, but I had this 'hang up' about opening my eyes. Still I was quite satisified with the result, but no it is not the 100% experience you asked for.


Title: Proof
Post by: AndrewTheSinger on January 19, 2004, 10:56:16
Ya, there are always some things that match and some things that don't.

A nice one I can remeber right now was when I visited a friend of mine in Usa and saw him sat down writing something, and when I invited him to go fly outside I saw he had a buddy there who was black, thin, tall, and had short hair.  

After returning I emailed him to tell the story and he said he was writing songs that day, and his only black friend was there with him, he is thin tall and has very short hair.

I also told him of the building I saw him in, the hallways, a gate in the street, but all these didn't match.

I posted my experience here: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4075&SearchTerms=a,great,experience,partly

Hey Tom, would you like to participate in the search for the missing girl? I know you're goot at finding things in the dream. I see you are involved in another experiment, it's alright if you can't do it right now.

 


Title: Proof
Post by: Risu no Kairu on January 19, 2004, 12:25:11
I really don't see why proof matters.

Even if these out of body experiences were merely lucid dreams, they're still something many people enjoy and like having.

They're clearly a real phenomena.

Why would hundreds (thousands, or more, maybe?) of people make up so many stories and describe them all in almost hte same way?

Who is to say what is "real?"



Title: Proof
Post by: Tombo on January 19, 2004, 17:22:30
Thanks for the replies! Isn't it funny how hard it seems to be, to get that kind of proof?

To Euphoric Sunrise: I know that experiment, I tried it myself. It didn't work though. I'll certainly try again. Did you ever succesfully do it?

To stephen~: Yeah, thats at least something. You should try it again.


AndrewTheSinger: Thanks for sharing the experience: These are the kinds of experiences I'm looking for. I had a LD once where I saw a light switch in our house at a very strange place. Next day I checked the place and the wall really looked like a lighning switch there. But of course thats no proof maybe my brain had stored that info in the subconscious. Whats the story with the girl? Where can I read something about it? I'll  try to help!

To Risu no Kairu: I agree it's clearly a real phenomenom, I had a OBE myself. I do not wanna judge what is real. I just wanna know what really happens. There are various reasons why proofs matter:
-I'm curious
-the better you understand something the better you can use it. What could be bad about knowing as much as possible about OBE's? It helps me interprete the experience if I know as much as possible about the cause of it.
-I want to know if I'm really walking thru our neighbours has our if it just a fantasie, is that so hard to understand? Lets assume you see a beautyful girl during an OBE. Don't you wanna know if she's really alive?[;)]


Title: Proof
Post by: Euphoric Sunrise on January 19, 2004, 21:29:31
quote:
Originally posted by tombodenmann

To Euphoric Sunrise: I know that experiment, I tried it myself. It didn't work though. I'll certainly try again. Did you ever succesfully do it?


I haven't successfully projected yet so no i haven't tried it, and i'm not sure i will.
As others have mentioned, there are too many factors that can change things when you're out of body.


Title: Proof
Post by: Tombo on January 21, 2004, 15:09:47
Anybody??


Title: Proof
Post by: Kazbadan on January 21, 2004, 17:53:38
Once i asked the same question but there wasnīt any good answer. No one seemed interested in proofs. Until now no one that makes obes has ever talked about proofs to themselves. I mean, there are so many obers and many obers reading this, i cannot believe that no one tried to proof obes to himself (sucess proofs). For newbies like us, itīs really important to hear that someone had some sucess with that. Itīs important to know, from other experienced people that themselves proofed (prooved?! my english itīs bad...) the realoty of obes with simple tests like the one with cards.

Many of you will argue that such proof itīs irrelevant, but your are wrong. If iīm trying something new, itīs good to know if itīs true or not true. Maybe all the obers are just having some king of supra-hallucination, very real (but not real). Maybe some of you will say that even if obes are not real (just a kind of ultra real hallucination), at least they are fun. Well, in that case my interest in obes will decrease very much because i pretend to use obes with other intentions, not just in a funny way. So, as you see, itīs important to know if they are real.

After reading this i hope that many obers in this forum will give some personal proffs (like.."I guessed the card 3times and never failed" or "i saw the plate numer in the astral and confirmed that in the real world"...etc).

thanks


Title: Proof
Post by: Meedan on January 21, 2004, 19:48:40
I haven't projected yet, but I am also surprised how few people on this forum have had 'confirmed' "RTZ" projections. Although there are other ways to do it, it is important to prove to yourself that the mind and the brain are seperate.


Title: Proof
Post by: stephen~ on January 21, 2004, 20:50:50
I mostly project during the day. Over time I have noticed that although such things as furniture, small objects or doors etc don't match up with the real world all the time in an RTZ projection, atmospheric conditions do.

This depends upon having normal vision, but when it is clear I find the RTZ is exactly like the light and weather conditions at the time in the physical world. The light level in the room matches, if the sun is pouring in through the windows then it is in the projection. During evenings when the lights are on then the light quality in the projection is the same, the lights are on and the shadows are present where you'd expect them. A 40watt bulb looks the same here and 'there'.

If my vision is fine during the RTZ it always seems to be this way. To me this suggests more in the way of proof than card readings etc. For if I was creating the scene in my head how come I never get a sunny day RTZ projection at 7.30pm on a dark winter's night? How can it be that my mind can create a door where there isn't one, but it can't do a simple thing like make the room brighter or darker than it really is at the time?

I think a lot of us scramble round maybe looking for proof in playing cards and numbers, and overlook the biggest clue which is that you don't get moonlight and stars during daytime projections, or 'false' lighting or weather conditions at all in RTZ projections. At least, that's my experience of RTZ. I think I would have had some over time that were innacurate in this regard, but I can honestly say it has never happened to me yet (I imagine it would be hard to forget the surprise of, say, seeing the room bathed in moonlight if you knew it was 2 o'clock in the afternoon).



Title: Proof
Post by: Jeff_Mash on January 21, 2004, 20:52:34
Here is why I don't bother with proof.

1) First of all, 80% of the time that you do have an OBE when you want it, you're so overwhelmed with the moment that you don't think about doing the same things as you did when you were awake, like reading a card or something like that.  It would be completely different if you could OBE at will, and not worry about "wasting" one of these experiences.  But for me, I may get out once a week, and I usually get caught up with other astral things.

2) Let's just say, for arguements sake, that you OBE to a card, and you misread it.....or the card isn't there like it is in the physical.  What would you conclude from this?  You might say, "Hmmmm...the experiment failed.  That means this isn't real."

We could go on a long tangent about the nature of reality, and how there is no such thing as an "un-real" experience.....but going along with the above scenario, would it really matter to you if it was proven to be fake?

Is it really that big a deal if you find out that all these OBE's are just in your head?  The answer is no...because you KNOW at the time of the experience that what you're experiencing is REAL!  No one could tell you otherwise, just as no one can convince you that you're really sleeping right now as you read this.  You just KNOW that you're awake and in front of a computer, just as you KNOW you're awake and having an OBE when it happens.

The point is that many people put a lot of burden on proving that these non-physical experiences are real by PHYSICAL standards.  Personally, even if you could never prove that it was real to physical standards, I could care less, because it's more than real to me.

In layman's terms, if many of you found out today that the favorite orange juice you drink is NOT made from real oranges, but in fact an orange substitute, would you really care?  Probably not.


Title: Proof
Post by: kiauma on January 21, 2004, 21:16:22
Once, I had arranged to have someone meet me in the astral.  I was to tell them a word.  On waking, we figured if she could tell me the word, that would be 'proof' we had met in the astral.

Later that week I was successful in APing.  We met.  She waited for me to tell her the word.  I couldn't.

I couldn't tell her because I had made the word up.  It had no meaning.  My mind ached trying to come up with a concept I could communicate the word I had made up, but because I had made it up, it had no meaning.

I was not able to repeat the experiement, and afterward, though she said she had APed, she had no memory of meeting me.

My point though, is that in a simular way I think it likely to be very difficult to 'read a card' in the astral because color spots on paper have no meaning.  In the astral, emotion is what communicates best.  Our 'mind' has meaning.  Homes, walls, and such have meaning.  We also identify emotionally with the weather (sunny, rainy, etc.).

Things get done in the astral because they need to get done, on whatever level of soul work you are at.  I think verifying the 'physical reality of the astral' (a huge contradiction) is very low on the cosmic agenda.

The word was kiauma.



Title: Proof
Post by: Kerrblur on January 21, 2004, 23:52:43
JEFF_MASH! JEFF_MASH! JEFF_MASH! JEFF_MASH! JEFF_MASH! JEFF_MASH! JEFF_MASH! might as well call you martin luther king with your lecktures. lol good work

lol the vibrations PERIOD is proof for me my friends, lol the lifting of some kind of invisible arm is proof enough for me lol


Title: Proof
Post by: Makaveli on January 22, 2004, 02:18:12
I know that someone on this forum posted a while ago about successfully doing the card experiment.  Just do a search on card trick.  

If you’re interested in something that suggests that AP is real a good area to look into is NDEs which are much more powerful events that are linked to AP.  There have been many cases of people identifying things they couldn’t see.  The information brought back from NDEs throughout different cultures and beliefs has been too consistent to be just a hallucination.  Here is a good overview of some of the evidence for NDEs:  http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html

Also wasn’t there already some kind of successful verification with API?  


Title: Proof
Post by: kiauma on January 22, 2004, 02:32:58
Near-death.com is a great site!


Title: Proof
Post by: Tombo on January 22, 2004, 10:13:49
I can understand that some of you don't care for that kind of proof, but at least there seem to be a number of people that do so.
I for myself think it's very thrilling to do these kinds of tests. My thinking is simple: If it's really possible to leave the body behind (what I want to believe!) and visit other worlds. it must be possible to proof that.
I had 2 ObE's myself including the vibrations and the feeling of separation, So I'm goal isn't to proof that all of it is made up or something.
But some of us, maybe to more materialistic thinking, really want to know what really is going on.


Title: Proof
Post by: Kazbadan on January 22, 2004, 16:37:06
tombodenman: there is nothing materialistic in wishing to know truth about obes. I notice that the ones that donīt care about proofs are the experienced obers. But they think that we (newbies) are materialistic just because we donīt accept something at a first glance.

I have my mind very opened to such things but i will not accept 100% until i get some proof. And why? Blind faith in something itīs saomething dangerous. Buda, the creator of one great religion, itīs the first one inviting people to study his teachings and try them in a pratical way, only them we will be able to judge them.

This kind of mentality itīs very important in order to avoid illusions and wrong paths. So, about obeīs i must try by myself, but while iīm not able to try it (still learning...) it would be great if someone in this forum could give some proof of itīs reality (by proof i mean a relate of some experience occured during your obeīs).

Itīs not arrongance from my self wishing this proofs, itīs just that iīm tired to see so many lies and illusions in my life. I mean, you obers are not lying but there is a minimal possibility that obeīs are just a kind of dream or hallucination. You will argue that if you can experience it, so they are real...no thatīs not a proof. A dream itīs not real and i have many dreams...the same thing happens with obes.

 You must understand that for you (obers) itīs easy to ignore the importance of proofs, but for a newbie itīs very important. Besides that, with proofs, it will be much more easy to believe and consequently i will be a step way from getting an obe.

 



Title: Proof
Post by: coral1 on January 23, 2004, 00:46:06
Hi All

   If you believe that dreams are`nt real then you`ve answered your own question.OBEs are not real either.Reality is in the eye of the beholder.It`s difficult to objectivly prove what is after all a purely subjective experience.I believe everyone has to draw their own conclusions based on what they KNOW to be true.

Happy Trails


Title: Proof
Post by: Blackstream on January 23, 2004, 06:47:41
quote:
Originally posted by coral1

If you believe that dreams are`nt real then you`ve answered your own question.OBEs are not real either.


First off, you are supposedly able to see reality while obeing on the lowest level.  That's real enough for me, as opposed to a dream.

Secondly, supposedly, at least from what I've been reading, you can encounter real beings in this astral world, as opposed to figments of your imagination.  Knowledge of whether or not they are really real would also be helpful.

So unless obes are just realistic dreams, obe doesn't equal dream, so a non-real dream shouldn't mean non-real obe.

So yes, I'm interested in whether or not people have proved this to themselves as well.  Though I'll be doing my own reality checks soon enough anyways.


Title: Proof
Post by: clandestino on January 23, 2004, 10:57:13
Let me throw my 2-pence worth in...

Kazbadan:
 
quote:
I notice that the ones that donīt care about proofs are the experienced obers. But they think that we (newbies) are materialistic just because we donīt accept something at a first glance


This is a good point, but I don't think that they really think newbies are "materialistic". I'd guess that 95% of the experienced projectors you talk about shared your enthusiasm for "proof" at first....but I think the fact that they don't care for it anymore is telling us something.

 
quote:
Buda, the creator of one great religion, itīs the first one inviting people to study his teachings and try them in a pratical way, only them we will be able to judge them.


This is quite true with OBE's also. The only way I can truly learn is by experience, not reading about it here or in a book.

Makaveli:
 
quote:
I know that someone on this forum posted a while ago about successfully doing the card experiment. Just do a search on card trick.

Quite a while back, Patty mentioned she had limited success too...but even after getting some kind of proof, she wanted to further it by making the exercise more complicated to eliminate chance. Perhaps indicating that no matter how much proof a person is presented with, they will always believe what they want.

I reckon Jeff's point is fundamental here :
 
quote:
The point is that many people put a lot of burden on proving that these non-physical experiences are real by PHYSICAL standards.

Until physical science can measure non-physical events, we will struggle. Even if the card experiment were replicated 10 times in a row under strict observation, it would receive no more than a foot note in the papers because people prefer to stick to what they are comfortable with believing.

Mark





Title: Proof
Post by: Tombo on January 23, 2004, 11:03:14
Kazbadan: I understand your point of view very well and basically do agree with you.
One exception though. The statement "dreams are not real" is kind of dangerous, meaning it's misleading. Do you know Lucid dreams? There's a smooth transition between: Dream->Lucid Dream->OBE->Near Death experiences->Waking Life. It's a question of awarness, I believe.
You can't just say dreams are not real. What does real mean anyway? Is a daydream real? You are canstantly driftimg away into fantasies during day, so is your waking life real? If you become Lucid in a dream you discover that the dream feels as real as waking Life. That's why I said, I want proof that it is possible to visit the physical world during OBE. I think thats a better question then asking wether OBE are real or not.


Title: Proof
Post by: OverDriven on January 23, 2004, 12:26:33
I think that those that say "we don't need proof" or "we only need to prove it to ourselves" are a bit scared of the thruth. Lets face it...the evidence against it being "real" is very strong, while there is little evidence for it being more than a complex creation of the mind. Lets look at the facts:

1. Everything can change in the astral.
2. People go OBE and see something, then come back to their body to find that what they saw never happened.
3. People often meet others in the astral and the other person doesn't remember it.
4. Nothing can hurt you in the astral
5. The "vibes" of separation are exactly the same feeling you get when your nervous system shuts down. The rushing in the ears is the sound you hear when the nerves in your ears begin to shut down as well. This points to the fact that these exit sensations are nothing more than our body preparing us for sleep. It is a well known fact that almost all of the bodys nerves do shut down during sleep. We are just forcing ourselves to stay conscious of these sensations. It seems as though the vibes are not caused by our resonance changing or anything like that.

All of these are against the existance of a real OBE. Now for the evidence supporting them:

1. A few people have in fact been able to go to a remote room and identify an object, then come back to report. I have never heard of a case of this actually being a clear identification though. Usually a gold pot for example might be seen as a yellow ball. This evidence is very inconclusive and could be attributed to a lucky guess.
2. Robert Monroe was once under observation at a lab, and upon projection, the scientists saw a "heatwave" like distortion leave his body. This is probably the strongest evidence yet that some energy body left his physical body.

Thats about it for supportive evidence. I'm really trying to show both sides in this post, as it would be foolish to blindly believe either way. I know we all WANT astral projection to be real and not some fantasy, but don't let that get in the way of being logical about it. I myself am still on the fence about it. Yes it feels very solid and real, but the human mind is cabable of creating incredible thoughts and fantasies. I would love for it to be real, but I'm not going to lie to myself about the evidence as many people tend to do. I think what we need to do is more experimenting. I hear so many people come on and say "I went to the astral and had sex then flew in the clouds!". Woohoo. Put your valuable astral time into researching. See if you can 100% ID a card in another room over and over again. No need to prove it you say? Thats rather selfish IMO. There IS a need to prove it so that if it IS real, one day we might understand it and even have scientists legitimatly study it. We aren't going to go anywhere without an attitude of exploration and experimentation. You might have to put your beliefs on the line to do that, but the payoff is knowing the truth...favorable or not.


Title: Proof
Post by: Kazbadan on January 23, 2004, 13:17:26
Overdriven, i agree with you, we must avoid all the fantasy stuff and start explore the possibility of obes being real. The main reason for this is: I want to believe. I want obes to be real because it would be great, but itīs that same feeling that makes me wish to know more about the true reality of obes, because when someone believes in something, there is tendency to make and see things in a way that will force the reality to be the one that we want.

In other words if, for example, i believe in ufos and government conspiracy, i will see every single thing as a real proof for obes: "Bush wanna go to Mars...thats because he knows that aliens are real and he want to contact them~" or "hmmm, you saw a light in the sky? Thats an ufo, i knew it! itīs true!". Well, i just want to mean that with a strong (but not proven) belief in something, people tends to see the proofs that they want in every place.

For that reason, and because i know that iīm the first one wanting to believe in AP, i know that more than ever i must act with caution and look for real evidences. Evidences and proofs that are really good, not only for believers but even for sceptical ones.

A good proof itīs one that will embarace or twist with the mind of scientist....

Like Carl Sagan said once: "Extraordinary facts requires extraordinary proofs.".







Title: Proof
Post by: kiauma on January 23, 2004, 13:17:52
Has anyone gone to the link referenced earlier in this topic ( http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html ) and done the reading?

If you are looking for proof, you are going to find far more there than here.

People who have accomplished OBE's appear less curious about 'proof' for a variety of good reasons.  

First of all, the first-hand experience of AP is VERY POWERFUL.  One feels that he is in 'reality' usually far more powerfully than when awake.  It is a singularly remarkable experience.  

Second of all, given the first-hand experience of the accomplished OBEer, he has a much more intimate knowledge of the problems and pressures involved with the question of 'proof'.   When out of body, You are in an altered state of consciousness.   The simple fact for me was that other than the one experience I recounted, trying to collect proof while out of body of a physical connection fell to the priority of simple curiosity.  Usually I had other (seemingly) far more important things on the agenda than satisfying simple curiosity.

Researching the subject, as in the link above, reveals PLENTY of evidence that AP is real.  Also, the work of psychics like John Edward, who has participated in studies which gives results which defies the odds, I find very convincing.   There really is something going on there, external to the body, which we do not fully understand.   Science demands quantizable phenomena to study, and the truth is we just do not know enough about AP to apply physical science to it - we may have to evolve our understanding of science in order to study it!

That being the case, I equate the general OBEer, including myself, to a preschooler playing in a sandbox - Having a great time, but really having no conception of the strange new world I find myself in.  Otherwise, why all the controversey?

The basic problem is this:  When APed, you ARE consciousness.  Just consciousness.  You can describe it under whatever technical terms you like - energy body, doppelganger, etc. - but the fact is that you are basically just a consciousness.  That being the case, you REALLY have to have your mental house clean to make any sense of it.  Most people have so much psychic BS careening through their minds at all times they can hardly make sense of regular consciousness - so the problem is one of controlling and differentiating the subjective parts of the mind.

It is my theory that to totally rid oneself of subjectivity would be to kill your consciousness - after all, you are your perspective.  Anyway, I do not think it is necessary.  I believe as long as you are aware of how Astral perception is generated, you can then properly translate it, which is precisely how it works.  Your consciousness is like a radio set picking up all this psychic energy, and your consciousness in turn translates this energy into an archtypeal abstraction which you can then conceptualize.

John Edward works this way, 'speaking' with the spirits by translating archetypal psychic symbols.

If the 'radio set' is not kept clear of noise, however, then what you 'receive' becomes more and more personl - more subjective - thus the difficulty in translating the RTZ.

I grant you, this is my theory, there is much work to do to really understand what is going on.  And even then, while in the astral you are subject to the spiritual agenda, which is good, because I would hate to see man become so knowledgable that they would one day be able to control your soul...

Just my 2 cents.


Title: Proof
Post by: OverDriven on January 23, 2004, 13:23:44
Kazbadan,
I absolutely agree. When people want to believe, they will take any occurance of coincidence and turn it into evidence in their favor. Thats the wrong way to go about research. The key is in the way you think. Instead of wanting to believe OBE is real, you need to want the TRUTH, whether its a big letdown or not.


Title: Proof
Post by: Tombo on January 23, 2004, 17:57:03
the near death side really is very interessting!
Here's a post on the card experiment: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1360&SearchTerms=card,trick


Title: Proof
Post by: kiauma on January 23, 2004, 18:13:37
Cool!  I wonder where Patty is now.


Title: Proof
Post by: Kazbadan on January 23, 2004, 22:03:58
Well, that card experiment itīs a good start, but we must to do a little more than that. More card experiments are needed, and results without any doubt. If truth (the obes), them the numbers will overrun the probability of guessing a card normally.

And there is something about the relate: the deck has only red cards....that will shange for much less the probability of guessing the card.

Anyway, itīs a good start and an icentive for more people to try obing.



Title: Proof
Post by: kiauma on January 23, 2004, 22:41:28
You know, that brings up a good point.

What is the practical application of OBEs?

Of course, I am being sarcastic.  I am remarking on the western civilization's penchant for valuing only that with a definite use, or monetary advantage.  Yes, yes, more tests!  Then, I can really decide if it's worth doing.  [:p]  To put this in perspective, let me ask just what is the practical application of the universe?  [;)]

OBE is a spiritual exercise, a spiritual experience.  It is a path of self-knowledge, a path to self-mastery.  Yes, I think it is a revealling glimpse of higher truths - but I think more important is it's potential to help you transform as a person.


Title: Proof
Post by: Tombo on January 24, 2004, 10:47:54
quote:
Originally posted by OverDriven


5. The "vibes" of separation are exactly the same feeling you get when your nervous system shuts down. The rushing in the ears is the sound you hear when the nerves in your ears begin to shut down as well. This points to the fact that these exit sensations are nothing more than our body preparing us for sleep. It is a well known fact that almost all of the bodys nerves do shut down during sleep. We are just forcing ourselves to stay conscious of these sensations. It seems as though the vibes are not caused by our resonance changing or anything like that.



I think this theorie is pretty weak[:P]

1. If your ear nerves would shut down during sleep your alarm clock wouldn't be able to wake you in the morning, wouldn't it?

2. If your body nerves would shut down, You wouldn't feel if somebody is chewing on your feet, which would be rather impractical. And which is obviously not true as well.

3. If I have a LD and I end it. I can feel a movement to my sleeping body, Which doesn't make much sense if the whole dream would only be in my brain. Then when I stay completely calm the vibrations start immediately, which doesn't fit with your theorie cause my nerves would already be shut down then, since I'm in the middle of sleep.

The vibrations remain a mysterie.


Title: Proof
Post by: manuel on January 24, 2004, 12:07:29
I think I will post some of my experiences here on such maters, when I first started having these experiences, I remember one very clear one, I went into my parents room, floated to the top of the ceiling, and looked down and saw my mother asleep on the bed by her self, I noticed that my father was not there, I also noticed how the sheets where moved where my father was previously, I noticed my mother was some what awake, but still lying in bed, now I get up after this experience go to there room and see pretty much the exact same thing, I had no prior knowledge on this either, the only thing was my mother was asleep but not up, I can only conclude in that mater that I saw the a few minutes into the "future" in fact, this did not hit me until later when I realised hey!..She was by her self, another experience that happened halfway during 2003, I got up out of my body, gently floated out the window, and saw my father to my right hand side of the yard, I noticed his clothes and his position, I only saw this for a fraction of the time, after this, I went through my neighbours house and noticed some things, all this was later verified afterwards, and yes, no prior knowledge on the clothes, his position, and what contained in the neighbours house (peeking over the fence confirmed this for me).

Another trip was to LA California to a close friend I know, I noticed clothes, bed, sleeping, etc, pretty much everything matched up excluded that I saw writing on her shirt when there was non, this plus other little experiences in seeing the correct weather etc.

Now the problem with "proof" is that the way we view physical reality, I want you to do some thing, for the next 10 seconds, look around your room, make observations, touch things, smell, hear etc. what did you just see/touch/smell etc? You experienced what your physical body did, for example what you saw, what you saw was light being reflected of objects, entering your eye, through the optic nerve it goes and into the brain to be processed, that the reality you see in waking life, don’t forget the dimensions, alternative realities, etc it goes on and on.

For those who are interested in NDE type out of body experiences, there was a very interesting one by a lady named Pam Raynolds I believe, she had a very complex brain surgery done, where they stoped her heart, all brain waves off, body temp lowered etc, and she saw things that all where verified, here is the url
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html
also get Robert Monroe's books, great stuff.


Title: Proof
Post by: Tombo on January 25, 2004, 10:08:11
That was the kind of posts I was hoping for! Thanks manuel!
Anybody else? Don't be shy now...


Title: Proof
Post by: OverDriven on January 26, 2004, 15:33:30
quote:
Originally posted by tombodenmann


I think this theorie is pretty weak[:P]

1. If your ear nerves would shut down during sleep your alarm clock wouldn't be able to wake you in the morning, wouldn't it?

2. If your body nerves would shut down, You wouldn't feel if somebody is chewing on your feet, which would be rather impractical. And which is obviously not true as well.

3. If I have a LD and I end it. I can feel a movement to my sleeping body, Which doesn't make much sense if the whole dream would only be in my brain. Then when I stay completely calm the vibrations start immediately, which doesn't fit with your theorie cause my nerves would already be shut down then, since I'm in the middle of sleep.

The vibrations remain a mysterie.



So you think that a theory that your energy body resonance is changing and you are slipping from your body and becomeing a "ghost" in some other dimension is a more plausable thoery? Have you hear of Occam's razor? If not, find it and read it. What I stated was in fact not a theory at all...its a scientifically proven fact that the nervous system shuts down during sleep. This is what causes sleep paralysis...the brain can no longer fire impulses to the muscles. The reason you can wake up from an alarm clock or feel something on your toe is because the brain re-activates the nerves upon strong enough stimulation souch as sound or touch. As I stated in my original post, I would like OBE to be real too, and I think that it might be...but I will post all evidence supporting or not supporting it.


Title: Proof
Post by: kiauma on January 26, 2004, 16:13:25
quote:
Have you hear of Occam's razor? If not, find it and read it.


Keep in mind that Occam was a devout religious man.  All Occam's razor says is that the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one.  To apply it here, you need to posit that the solution is the most familiar one (physical system), not necessary the simplest...

 
quote:
its a scientifically proven fact that the nervous system shuts down during sleep


True, but how does that translate to experiencing another reality?  If it is only internal, how is it that we all experience it simularly?  If that in turn is because the mind has somehow evolved this ability common to our species, why and how would it evolve?

If you think through the position that OBE is purely a mental fabrication, and try to fit all the facts to that theory, it starts to get much more complicated...

Also, it does not surprise me at all that science is finding physical systems that correspond to certain psychic experience ( http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/19/health/main522488.shtml ).  This explains how we experience them, but no their source.

An analogy is the computer, which processes information and accepts and displays the information in patterns recognizable to us.   All the systems are there for sensing this information, but that does not mean the internet is inside your computer.


Title: Proof
Post by: Kazbadan on January 26, 2004, 17:45:25
I will explain what i know about tha stuff of nerves getting shut down while asleep. This is a scientific (not from me) explanation.
When we get to sleep ( i mean, not going to bed, but really gettind into a sleep state), our nervous system will be partially shut down, causing paralysss on the body. The objective of such paralysis itīs (in a scientific view) to avoid our body of get doing the things that we do during dreams( and so you wonīt be walking, talking, etc, during sleep....but sometimes you do that!).

Before someone wake up, this protective system (that works in the spine in the form of an electrical signal) will shut down, so the paralysis too. Only after that (a few seconds) you will wake up.

Of course that many times we get awake some seconds before the system being shut down. While in that state of transition (you awake and the nervous system being inactive at a muscular level) you are paralised and conscious from the situation. Itīs not rare for me to have such paralysis and i think that i can use it for my benefit and try an astral projection! Doctors advise people to do not get worry because that paralysis itīs completly normal and not unhealthy. Itīs just a little delay on the nervous system.

While i was younger i didnīt knew what such paralysis was and i get scared and with fear of getting asleep. Now the paralysis itīs more rare (unfortunatly?!..AP) and i can handle with it normally. I just breath for some seconds, waiting for the disapearing of the paralysis.



Title: Proof
Post by: Makaveli on January 26, 2004, 19:25:54
I get SP all of the time and don’t mind it anymore.  The scientific explanation may be correct as to what happens in the body but it could never explain the experience that is taking place.  Any bodily processes that occur during sleep are really irrelevant to the nature of what is happening during an AP.  It only explains the processes in the body that help the mind get to the point of the experience.  If science were to explain projection it would have to somehow become measurable to the third person perspective which seems next to impossible.    

quote:
Have you hear of Occam's razor?


This is strictly a philosophical rule not a scientific law of any kind.  Usually what is scientifically discovered is in most cases for from simple.  You could say that the people who thought the earth was flat were using Occam's razor because it was the simplest explanation at the time.


Title: Proof
Post by: Tombo on January 27, 2004, 14:25:34
quote:
Originally posted by OverDriven
So you think that a theory that your energy body resonance is changing and you are slipping from your body and becomeing a "ghost" in some other dimension is a more plausable thoery? Have you hear of Occam's razor? If not, find it and read it. What I stated was in fact not a theory at all...its a scientifically proven fact that the nervous system shuts down during sleep. This is what causes sleep paralysis...the brain can no longer fire impulses to the muscles. The reason you can wake up from an alarm clock or feel something on your toe is because the brain re-activates the nerves upon strong enough stimulation souch as sound or touch. As I stated in my original post, I would like OBE to be real too, and I think that it might be...but I will post all evidence supporting or not supporting it.



I wonder if the ear nerves shuting down theorie is your own or if you have some bachup for that. Cause what I learned the ear nerves do not shut down at all, but the brain filters the sound in order to go to sleep. However the ear stays alert the whole night and whenever a strange noise occurs the brain can quickly start to normally operate. This also fits with experience very well. For example a lot of people including myself are able to hear their partner breath while having a LD!!!!
As I already told you when I induce An oBE from a LD I experience the vibrations without waking up! Now explain that...
It seems to me that you do not objective judge but instead search for evidence to support your world view.$
Is it really so logic to believe in an materialistic world when almost all religions and "primitiv communities believe in  an existence independent from the brain?
Also you do completly ignore post like that done by manuel. Do you think he's lying or what is your reasoning behind that?


Title: Proof
Post by: OverDriven on January 27, 2004, 16:23:26
quote:
Originally posted by tombodenmann


It seems to me that you do not objective judge but instead search for evidence to support your world view.$



Well I guess you didn't read my whole post. I am posting evidence both supporting and not supporting OBE. On the other hand, I have yet to see you post ANY evidence against it, and all your evidence has been for the support of real OBE's. So I'll turn your question back on you. Why have you only posted supporting evidence, and not even aknowledged evidence opposing your view? You seem almost threatened by the idea that OBE may not be real, hence your defensiveness about this topic. If you want to know my personal opinion, its that OBE's are in fact real experiences where consciousness leaves the body. But I will not rule out any evidence, and am not afraid of any evidence pointing in the other direction. I have my mind open to the possibility that we are imagining all of this, and hence am posting any evidence I can find.


Title: Proof
Post by: OverDriven on January 27, 2004, 16:27:10
Here is one article published in a medical journal that I found supporting OBE. Very interesting read...

http://www.paradigm-sys.com/display/ctt_articles2.cfm?ID=50


Title: Proof
Post by: Kazbadan on January 27, 2004, 18:38:20
Now, letīs stop fighting and start to proof OBEīs. Not in a scientific manner, of course, but at leats in a way that it may proof something to other newbies in this forum.

My idea (i posted something similar in the past) itīs to make an experiment in wich there will be 2 main persons (and maybe other groups of other 2 persons,  to give consistency to the experiment), one of the persons will be the target. She(he) will put some kind of signal or something elevant in her(his) room, something strange and visible. The other one will be the projector.

This one will project, someday in a combined week (since itīs difficult to project in a certain day, itīs easier to project in a certain week) and will try to see the signal or, at least,try to describe all the relevant details that she(he) can remember. And details are not things like "I sar a bed" or "I saw wooden windows", because such things are very common everywhere (unless the amount of such details are huge- and if they match with reality...).

The results of the experiments will then be posted here.

This is just one ida to show or test AP for newbies in the forum. What do you think? Give ideas...

If no one answers to this idea i will repeat the post...   :-)



Title: Proof
Post by: kiauma on January 27, 2004, 19:36:09
I've only read some of the article OD, but it looks great!  Can't wait to read the rest later.

Thank you.


Title: Proof
Post by: Jeff_Mash on January 27, 2004, 19:43:35
quote:
Originally posted by Kazbadan

Now, letīs stop fighting and start to proof OBEīs. Not in a scientific manner, of course, but at leats in a way that it may proof something to other newbies in this forum.

My idea (i posted something similar in the past) itīs to make an experiment in wich there will be 2 main persons (and maybe other groups of other 2 persons,  to give consistency to the experiment), one of the persons will be the target. She(he) will put some kind of signal or something elevant in her(his) room, something strange and visible. The other one will be the projector.

This one will project, someday in a combined week (since itīs difficult to project in a certain day, itīs easier to project in a certain week) and will try to see the signal or, at least,try to describe all the relevant details that she(he) can remember. And details are not things like "I sar a bed" or "I saw wooden windows", because such things are very common everywhere (unless the amount of such details are huge- and if they match with reality...).

The results of the experiments will then be posted here.

This is just one ida to show or test AP for newbies in the forum. What do you think? Give ideas...

If no one answers to this idea i will repeat the post...   :-)



The only *problem* with your idea, Kazbadan, is that it only proves something to YOU and to the projector.  

Supposing someone took you up on your little test and succeeded....then you would come to this forum, telling everyone that it worked....and then we're right back in the same boat (eg. Now you have to prove that what you're saying is true and not made up).

What you propose has been done before.  I had someone successfully OBE to my room and decribe it in detail, proving to me and her that there was some sort of telepathy or extra-sensory perception available to those who project from their bodies.....but this little excursion cannot be proven to anyone else.  You have no idea of confirming that I'm telling the truth about this experiment, no matter how much I say otherwise.

See what I mean?


Title: Proof
Post by: Blackstream on January 27, 2004, 20:05:48
What could be done is to have one person make a video of their room, and make sure to look at all the details, put the video up in the video library (so that everyone can look at the video before the projection is done), then the one person (who would have to be trusted not to look at the video) projects in and looks at the room, makes a post with what he/she saw, then everyone verifies or doesn't verify via the video.

Of course, this only proves it to the people of the forum.  Any new visitors or anyone outside the forum will think fakery is done.

That's really about as good as you can get.  The only way to do better is to have scientists with a good reputation do the same thing and release their findings.  Then repeat several times and prove it again and again.  Then have a few more respected labs do the same thing. That'd be enough proof for all but the most hardcore disbelievers.  It'll never happen tho.


Title: Proof
Post by: Jeff_Mash on January 27, 2004, 21:52:07
quote:
Originally posted by Blackstream

What could be done is to have one person make a video of their room, and make sure to look at all the details, put the video up in the video library (so that everyone can look at the video before the projection is done), then the one person (who would have to be trusted not to look at the video) projects in and looks at the room, makes a post with what he/she saw, then everyone verifies or doesn't verify via the video.

Of course, this only proves it to the people of the forum.  Any new visitors or anyone outside the forum will think fakery is done.


Again, it all falls back on trust.....and those who don't want to believe will not believe, no matter how much you say you "trust" the results.

This is why it's extremely difficult to *prove* non-physical experiences with physically minded people.  

You say that the proof will just really be meaningful to those in this forum, but most of us in this forum don't need anymore proof than we already have, which is the proof based on the level of consciousness we have at the time of the projection.  There's just something about being that AWARE during the time of a projection which stretches beyond the boundry of needing further proof.

quote:

That's really about as good as you can get.  The only way to do better is to have scientists with a good reputation do the same thing and release their findings.  Then repeat several times and prove it again and again.  Then have a few more respected labs do the same thing. That'd be enough proof for all but the most hardcore disbelievers.  It'll never happen tho.



Getting scientists and labs involved is beyond the resources for those of us on this forum.  However, people like Robert Monroe have detailed their objective results with laboratory experiments, and people can read about them in their books.


Title: Proof
Post by: Makaveli on January 27, 2004, 22:27:08
It would probably be best for anyone wanting personal verification to meet somewhere like API in the astral.  My level of consciousness in my first experience and all the sensations that come on is proof enough for me.  From the sound of it real-time projections seem too hard to stay in for testing.  But maybe there are people who are good with them that may be able to do it, I had a real-time projection before but I couldn’t move at all since I was stuck floating a few feet above my body.    

One thing that highly suggests that OBEs occur outside of the brain is with the consistency of information brought back though all different cultures in NDEs.  If these experiences were hallucinations you would expect them to be shaped by people’s beliefs and expectations since they are interpreted as trips into the afterlife.  This doesn’t seem to be the case at all with NDES.  There are so many common aspects like the light, life review, the tunnel, void, etc.  An example of the information being consistent is with the life review.  Many people seem to have the idea of some kind of judgment from God in the afterlife where God will decide if you are good or bad.  Yet throughout different cultures and afterlife beliefs people who have the life review consistently experience self judgment of their actions rather than God or another being judging them.  Also many people believe in the existence of Satan in hell but out of all of the hellish NDEs there hasn’t been a reported account of someone seeing Satan.  This isn’t hard scientific evidence but it has been studied a lot and strongly suggests that it’s a real afterlife experience rather than the imagination of people who have these experiences.


Title: Proof
Post by: Arcane on January 28, 2004, 02:39:50
The problem with proofs is that you have to prove in terms of something else which you already know to be true. Since there has been little scientific investigation into anything like this, that is a little hard.


Title: Proof
Post by: Delog on January 28, 2004, 03:16:24
:-)


Title: Proof
Post by: Arcane on January 28, 2004, 03:32:05
I saw that, but how far have the scientists really got into the subject? I would say nowhere.
It seems as though they are only studying this as a sideline. They know that their experiment is going to take years to get anywhere, but have set it up none the less to make it look like they are doing something.


Title: Proof
Post by: Kazbadan on January 28, 2004, 17:18:19
Well, iīm trying to give ideas. Iīm waiting for more.

I thinked a little too in something that someone here has sayed: the experience it would proof only something to me or the ones involved in the experiment. We should try to overpass that situation in some manner.

Give ideas...

Now, what about i give some dollars (letīs say something like 50 dollars at least) to the first ober able to see all  ( iīm saying all, not almost all) the numbers that i will put in the top of my book-shelf (itīs in my room)? Even myself will not see the numbers. If someone accept this just email me.

PS- this is not a scientific idea but at least will proof something to me and...i will really give the money (itīs not a lot, but... itīs money  [:)])


Title: Proof
Post by: Tombo on January 28, 2004, 17:39:21
quote:
Originally posted by OverDriven

quote:
Originally posted by tombodenmann


It seems to me that you do not objective judge but instead search for evidence to support your world view.$



Well I guess you didn't read my whole post. I am posting evidence both supporting and not supporting OBE. On the other hand, I have yet to see you post ANY evidence against it, and all your evidence has been for the support of real OBE's. So I'll turn your question back on you. Why have you only posted supporting evidence, and not even aknowledged evidence opposing your view? You seem almost threatened by the idea that OBE may not be real, hence your defensiveness about this topic. If you want to know my personal opinion, its that OBE's are in fact real experiences where consciousness leaves the body. But I will not rule out any evidence, and am not afraid of any evidence pointing in the other direction. I have my mind open to the possibility that we are imagining all of this, and hence am posting any evidence I can find.



It wasn't my goal to show both sides of the phenomenon but to search for proofes. Your critics are welcome though.


Title: Proof
Post by: Tombo on January 28, 2004, 17:49:45
quote:
Originally posted by Kazbadan

Well, iīm trying to give ideas. Iīm waiting for more.

I thinked a little too in something that someone here has sayed: the experience it would proof only something to me or the ones involved in the experiment. We should try to overpass that situation in some manner.

Give ideas...



I think your idea is cool. We need one or two persons setting a target I would suggest OverDriven since he seems to be  very sceptical. Then we need at least two good projectors, I'm not good by the way. I would try a LD though. Then I would suggest that we do at least two experiments. Of course that would not proof something behind any doubt like Jeff masch said, it's not possible. But at least it would be fun and proove something to the persons involved. If nobody is partiziping I go for the 50 Dollars [:P]. No I won't but We could do the number thing then without money[;)]


Title: Proof
Post by: holy reality on January 29, 2004, 00:47:38
I have OBEd many a time and had all sorts of crazy things going on outside that didn't match the time of day or current environment.

If I run into my family, they can see me and talk to me.

My OBE environment is exactly the same as my lucid dream environment.

My room only seems to be realistic when I'm NOT lucid (though I'm not sure if it's ever been remotely close to accurate or not, possibly)

Having said that, when I do the card test, it behaves like reading any text in a dream would (though I dont' recall if I have done it from a traditional OBE) I do know that the time I succeeded (partially) was a lucid dream when I remembered the card and looked for it.

At first it was the Jack of Diamonds (Spades? whatever, it doesn't matter what it was, I know that the first card I saw was correct but I don't specifically remember what the card was [i have it written down]).. but it was so fuzzy and vague that self doubt turned it into somthing else.

That something else it turned into was incorrect, but the first thing it was was indeed right.

However based upon the workings of my subconscious I seem to have an affinity for face cards and "Jack of Diamonds" seems kind of burned into it.

What puzzles me are OBEs within dreams, they feel exactly the same, right down to a T, but I'm just OBEing into the environemnt of my dream... as in I dream I'm sleeping and then I decide to OBE and I do so.

The only thing is usually I'm never sleeping in my room, but somewhere else.

Now I know dreaming about sleeping is normal since your body IS SLEEPING so I'm probably picking up on th at, but what I don't get is why I never figure out that I'm in the wrong room and such.

At any rate... I don't really have much evidence in favor of proving the "validity" of OBE's or lucid dreams. I've had my share of precognitive dreams, and things that seem extremely real... but based upon the facts that..........

I can't have legitimate conversations with people.
People that I don't know well tend to look wrong or be impossible to summong.
I cannot go to "real" places even though I vividly remember what they should look like in my head and can even bring up photograph memories of the place I want to go to (in real life, memory seems to be harder to access while out of it)
I cannot have realistic sex (because I've never had sex so my mind really struggles very much with female anatomy, etc...) and if these were real people surely it would work much like having real sex would.
I can sometimes hear people's answers being generated in my head

......

I would say they are not real but there is potential for exploring "reality" if you get really good at it or know how to silence your subconscious mind.


Title: Proof
Post by: Kazbadan on January 29, 2004, 19:43:11
Hey guys! I just putted the numbers in the top of my bookshelf! Iīm waiting!

Holy Reality:
- Your case it seems very interesting, and i really would like to see an answer to that. Itīs better to post that in a different post, for people to see it.

- Itīs a little frustating to know that an obe it could be so less different fom dreams. To know that an obe can have such dream elements (reality does not match, etc). Someone answer to it pleas!


PS: I will say it again:
1- i have the numbers (and i didīt see it)
2- Answer to Holy Reality question!

Bye bye
[:)]


Title: Proof
Post by: Meedan on January 29, 2004, 20:40:38
Kazbadan and others who are disheartened by the many distortions that happen with most OBEs that you hear of here, should take note of certain things:

We know that:

Telepathy is the attempt to communicate without using 'physical' senses/organs like the mouth and ears.

Success of telepathy depends on the level of concentration you have when performing it.

'Fluctuations' or 'inaccuracies' will develop if the level of concentration is not sufficient.


My Theory:

We see things because of our eyes. When out-of-body, you have no eyes. Sight - while out of body - is the attempt to view things without using 'physical' senses/organs like the eyes.

It is a skill and 'fluctuations' or inaccuracies will appear if the level of concentration is not sufficient.

Getting the correct 'image' while out-of-body depends on the level of concentration you happen to have during that OBE.

Therefore, I am inclined to think that there is no 'Astral Plane', where things are 'different' and distorted.


I don't really want to take this off-topic, so I might start a seperate topic soon to debate whether my theory is correct or not. This is just to show why fluctuations and things that do not match reality are bound to happen.




Title: Proof
Post by: kiauma on January 29, 2004, 21:09:38
This Xmas one of my gifts was a Balinese Suling flute.   Recently I have been trying to learn how to play it.

I had tried to play the saxaphone in high school for a semester and then lost interest.  Trying to learn how to play this flute I can see why, though at the age I'm at now I am sticking with it.

Still, it struck me how AP is like trying to learn how to play my new flute.   Often I will hear a song and think, 'that is a great song, I would love to try to play that on my flute,' but then I will get my flute, and when I actually get the flute in my hands and try to play it it is very difficult, and the flute is very limited in range and does not seem able to do what I want.  And that is very much like my experience of AP.  I would get out, and suddenly I would have a complete new agenda, or I would be unable to maneuver as I want, or something else just wouldn't work 'right'.   I think it is a good paralell, how when in regular consciousness we think we know what we want to do, but when we get there it is actually quite different, and what we want to do isn't always do-able at the time.

I think that just like the flute there is a learning curve, and perhaps we will eventually become Masters of our new consciousness, but just like learning to play the flute, it is difficult and can be very trying at times, and sometimes it just comes down to what your particular instrument can do and what it can not.   Time will tell.

Just thought I'd share that thought.


Title: Proof
Post by: NEone on January 30, 2004, 03:30:47
Ok, here's the way I see it. Your brain can recreate any physical perception you have ever had, or can reasonably approximate how a new physical sensation should feel. I.e. none of us have ever flown before, but our brains can take a stab at what it would be like to fly based on expectations. Or, if you've never been swimming, your brain could still make a good guess as to what it would feel like based on what it knows about water, your body etc.

Now, going on this, I had a feeling that my brain should not have been able to create on its own. I felt myself floating around my room. Then I returned to my body. When I got close to it, I felt myself located both above my body *and* simultaniously inside my body. It's a very hard sensation to describe, and I didn't really know that it was going to happen, so I didn't have any expectations of it or anything.  My point is, in my opinion, there is no way my brain could possibly independently produce this sensation because there is no event in "normal" physical reality that could even resemble such a thing. Maybe if it were something like 2 heartbeats or 4 legs or some other viable sensation it would be different, but I definitely don't think the brain in its natural state can ever *imagine* 2 points of conciousness.

I know that's not "proof" really, but still, it's something...


Title: Proof
Post by: Tombo on January 30, 2004, 13:34:08
Hey Kazbadan: I would suggest that you put paintings, forms or something as a target, cause numbers are very difficult to "see" since they are abstract and mutate easily in the astral. Cause If somebody guesses the numbers wrong does not mean he wasn't in your room!

NEones post reminds me of something:
I once had a "Dream" were I percieved Colors that do not exist on earth. It was a very strange feeling I knew that once I would wake up It would be impossible to take this memory back cause it was not possible to "know on earth" since it was impossible for my brain to remember it. As I awoke I felt like the memories of the colors got replaced by feelings how looking on them felt cause that was the best my brain could do with that experience. That makes my believe that there is a world outside our brains.


Title: Proof
Post by: holy reality on February 01, 2004, 19:18:24
quote:
Originally posted by NEone

Ok, here's the way I see it. Your brain can recreate any physical perception you have ever had, or can reasonably approximate how a new physical sensation should feel. I.e. none of us have ever flown before, but our brains can take a stab at what it would be like to fly based on expectations. Or, if you've never been swimming, your brain could still make a good guess as to what it would feel like based on what it knows about water, your body etc.

Now, going on this, I had a feeling that my brain should not have been able to create on its own. I felt myself floating around my room. Then I returned to my body. When I got close to it, I felt myself located both above my body *and* simultaniously inside my body. It's a very hard sensation to describe, and I didn't really know that it was going to happen, so I didn't have any expectations of it or anything.  My point is, in my opinion, there is no way my brain could possibly independently produce this sensation because there is no event in "normal" physical reality that could even resemble such a thing. Maybe if it were something like 2 heartbeats or 4 legs or some other viable sensation it would be different, but I definitely don't think the brain in its natural state can ever *imagine* 2 points of conciousness.

I know that's not "proof" really, but still, it's something...



well we can take into account various theories:
freud and his views of the unconscious
bruce's idea of mind split
... well I guess those are the only two I can think of.

But it does seem like it is indeed possible to have multiple consciousnesses running at the same time, in fact I have this memory that I just triggered in my head about this subject, and I'm not sure where it came from. I believe I was riding in a car thinking about how I could have many different levels of consciousness active but am only confined to one at a time and thus tend to only have that consciousnesses memories.... yes I remember now, I was thinking about something someone posted on these boards about Monroe supposedly being able to choose whether he wanted to occupy his physical/astral body but while he was doing one the other would still be active, so like theoerteically if he was doing something boring he could leave the body and let his normal body mind continue doing whatever it was it was doing.

Which is an interesting thought...

but at any rate you most certainly have two "bodies" while dreaming, and your physical body is not completely shut down, it is still somewhat receiving sensory information as if something happened to it you would need to wake up instantly to be able to respond.

So with that in mind it is entirely conceivable that the brain could easily merge your physical senses with your dream senses, this is evident when you're drooling in your sleep and dream about eating and smearing sauce all over your face, only to wake up and feeling that the "sauce" you felt was actually on your physical body.

Or finding yourself lying on your side doing something in the dream then it spontaneously ends and you're in the same position.

So since these happen easily it's not hard to think that you could simulatenously feel your sleeping body while you were active in your dream if you focused on it or were in a light stage of sleep.

Taking into account the "unconscious" (yes it exists more or less but whether it is an actual separate entity responsible for dreaming and things like that is up to debate) it would seem that sections of your mind are divided up into monitoring your body and since you are in an altered state of consciousness while dreaming it would theoretically make sense that you could become aware of those parts of consciousness.


anyway I'd like to mention that all the OBE's I've had have been of the waking induced variety and I have still yet to be able to gain control of the hypnagogic state in the middle of the day despite intense attempts at focusing... so that may have something to do with the dream like qualities of my experiences.


Title: Proof
Post by: Kazbadan on February 02, 2004, 17:06:28
quote:
Originally posted by holy reality
I have still yet to be able to gain control of the hypnagogic state in the middle of the day despite intense attempts at focusing... so that may have something to do with the dream like qualities of my experiences.



What do you mean by controling the hypnagogic state during the day? do you have hallucinations or something?!


Title: Proof
Post by: holy reality on February 02, 2004, 18:15:56
quote:
Originally posted by Kazbadan

quote:
Originally posted by holy reality
I have still yet to be able to gain control of the hypnagogic state in the middle of the day despite intense attempts at focusing... so that may have something to do with the dream like qualities of my experiences.



What do you mean by controling the hypnagogic state during the day? do you have hallucinations or something?!



No, I meant that I cannot control the hypnagogic state when I try to project during the day like I sometimes can in the mornings... and that most of my OBEs are nestled between dreams so that could account for less realism.

This is what I said:

quote:

anyway I'd like to mention that all the OBE's I've had have been of the waking induced variety and I have still yet to be able to gain control of the hypnagogic state in the middle of the day despite intense attempts at focusing... so that may have something to do with the dream like qualities of my experience


but if you want to know in more detail what i'm talking about i recently made a thread about it.
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10305


Title: Proof
Post by: Kazbadan on February 03, 2004, 16:51:15
I putted the numbers in my room, and still waiting for an ober to see it...


Title: Proof
Post by: Tombo on February 04, 2004, 07:35:56
The question is, is anybody trying to see them at all?! maybe you should find somebody who is really willing to do the test and says so, otherwise I wouldn't be surprised if nobody answers[:(]

I would try to make a test if you paint an easy but uncommon geometric figure on a piece of paper and place it in your bedroom. I wouldn't do a OBE's though but a LD. Don't know if it would work, but I had luck in the past with such an experiment. who knows maybe I would be able to do it again.
What do you think?


Title: Proof
Post by: Kazbadan on February 04, 2004, 19:31:31
Itīs a good idea, but the problem is that figures and images always give controversial results. A number itīs something more exact.

I donīt know...

There is anyone here that wanna make the test?!

What about you, Tombodenman, if i use figures would you make the test?!


Title: Proof
Post by: Tombo on February 05, 2004, 10:15:54
If you paint something( cloud, pyramid, circle, tree or something) I'll try to get it. Try to find something simple but unlikely to hit by chance.
Say when your ready and then I'll try within a week, o.k.?


Title: Proof
Post by: Meedan on February 05, 2004, 15:32:13
Regarding this experiment (and any others): I'd just like to suggest that anyone who tries should not guess or go by a 'feeling' of what the target was.

You either saw what the target was, or you didn't. Try to be certain of what you saw, before naming the target.


Title: Proof
Post by: Li Yun on February 05, 2004, 17:07:28
the other day I was being a lazy student and hitting my snooze button over and over on my alarm for about two hours (every six minutes) I have found that this contantly keeps you in that extremley strange zone of light sleep but intense dreams...its pretty fun you should try it...now this isn't total proof  but i was aware that i'd arranged to go indoor rock climbing that afternoon and remember being concerned that there might not be many ropes up on the routes which limits what you can climb (if you don't have your own rope) with that in mind my thought morphed into another dream/concept type thing where i was at the climbing centre and i could see one corner and noted that there where a few ropes up...good stuff! i woke up and didn't think too much about it, as i'm always having dreams like that.
Anyway I met my mate and drove to the centre and when we got there I was struck by the way that the routes with ropes up were the ones i'd seen (the routes and ropes change all the time ramdomly) anyway it isn't of course proof on totality, but it was a nice idea to think i had a little peak in my dream to see if they were there or not...anyway ramble on......[:P]


Title: Proof
Post by: Kazbadan on February 05, 2004, 17:18:47
Ok, i will try that one of paitings on next week maybe, since now iīm too busy. Until there i will not get out the numbers from the book shelf. So until the next week anyone could try to see it.

Li Yun: sometimes that kind of dreams happens with me too. Itīs a nice sleep stage since your dreams are very real and vivid. I think that stage itīs responsible too for the hypnagogic hallucinations.

I think that actually many people can mislead itself by thinking that such dreams are obes. I even had some dreams in wich i was getting out from my body or from my bed and walk around there...but they were not the "normal" obes  (the ones similar to near death experiences...lucid ones). They were just dreams and iīm shure of that.

Until now i only  had 2 almost-obes experiences.


Title: Proof
Post by: Li Yun on February 05, 2004, 17:31:48
hi Kazbadan; i was just wondering, whats an oboes dream/experinece?
i've not heard of it before and i'm really intertesed in dreams...(probably cos i spend so much time asleep!!!)[|)]


Title: Proof
Post by: Nomus on February 05, 2004, 23:28:03
Hi

I didn't have time enough to read through all the pages so, If this has already been mentioned, then it was my mistake.

Wouldn't it be proof enough if you saw your own body, lying in bed (or wherever you ap)? To actually be able to see your own body when you know for a fact that you are outside of it. Wouldn't that be proof enough?

Kazbadan: Is that a ball lightning?


Title: Proof
Post by: holy reality on February 06, 2004, 00:05:14
quote:
Originally posted by Nomus

Hi

I didn't have time enough to read through all the pages so, If this has already been mentioned, then it was my mistake.

Wouldn't it be proof enough if you saw your own body, lying in bed (or wherever you ap)? To actually be able to see your own body when you know for a fact that you are outside of it. Wouldn't that be proof enough?

Kazbadan: Is that a ball lightning?




Well it would be nice..... and frankly it hasn't really happened to me that I can vividly recall.. I remember forcing my body onto the bed by  expecting it to be there and thinking "okay my body HAS to be in my bed" but I didn't look quite right and after much inspection I noted that my clothes were different than what I was wearing at the time.

That's kind of the same way I encountered astral feedback... I dreamed I had gone OBE and thought "hmm I wonder if astral feedback is real, let's see" and I expected something to happen... it did and it was weird, painful, and cool... but of course it was based entirely upon what Bruce describes it to be, hence I don't know that that is any real "proof" ..

plus it was all going on within a dream.

I really really really really really want to be able to go to real places in the physical realm and see what is happening in them in real time... like find a hot girls house and explore it, maybe enter her dreams or try to pull her out of her body.

Or maybe like...go to Magic Mountain and ride REALISTIC recreations of the rides there.

That would own.


Title: Proof
Post by: Person on February 06, 2004, 05:56:47
I'm very surprised so many don't care for proof... hard evidence was my main goal for years.  I want to KNOW my experiences are real, because if they're not, they're almost a waste.  They may teach spiritual lessons, but what good is that if there is no spirit world and it's all in my head?  That old song "I'm dreaming my life away" bugged me enough to drive me to find proof.  
I was very lucky to get proof on my first OBE.  I 'fell' out of dream state into my kitchen.  I noticed my puzzle set was still sprawled out, and picked up a piece, noting the insanely real texture and appearance.  I looked up to the window, and the trees were black(backlit) and leafless against a dark blue sky.  My dad coughed and it woke me up, so I immediately went to check.  The view out the window was exact, this was right after sunset when the colors change every few minutes, and in January.  But - the puzzle had been put away two weeks ago.  
Everything I've ever read says when you OBE to real time, it's not quite the physical plane.  Matter radiates etheric energy and this is all we can percieve.  The puzzle had been left out a long time, and I'd put many hours of mental effort into it.  Add this to Bruce's theory of the brain making sense of two data streams (dreaming mind and OBE mind) by mixing them into one, making dream imagery mesh with your genuine experience, and it explains times when you talk to people with no memory of it or things are off.  
That experience felt 100% real and I had a strong dose of personal proof from the window, but even then I doubted.  It could still have been coincidence.  So I kept trying, and have had much success-
If all you want is proof that you're not imagining things, try for remote viewing instead.  It's much quicker, less effort, and still gains solid evidence.  
The best evidence is when you see a place you know for a fact you've never been.  Old memories of your back yard, or knowing someone so well you can accurately predict what they're doing, discount proof.  I went online all the time on chats, where people are shy about giving out too much personal information, you can connect to who they are well, and I've never even been in the state that they're in.
-I RV'd my online friend at a pool party, sitting on the edge quietly, then leaving to a small room.  I also saw a short, blonde, spiky hair'ed guy from above.  All confirmed, as well as the time of the event.
-I RV'd the same guy and saw a still image of what I thought was him, blurry, at the bottom of some stairs wearing a tshirt and shorts of certain colors (its been a few years).  Online he said that's not even near what he's wearing and we discounted it.  The next morning he saw his dad come down the stairs wearing exactly that.
-I saw a room with blue carpet in Canada, confirmed.
-While dozing off on the couch and thinking about another Canadian, I vividly saw a small 4way stop intersection with a silver car turning right, and it had it's lights on in the daytime.  Confirmed, and I learned some cars have that feature built in...
Up until now, it's remotely possible that these people all happened to lie and confirm to appease me.  But then I had another experience:
I was half awake in bed and felt a presence by my bedside.  He touched my left cheek, and I went into a created dream after that.  A week later when he was back from vacation, he told me of his dream, on the same day: I was in my room in my chair, with a tear on my left cheek that he wiped off.  The room was fuzzy but his description was mostly correct.  The desk was between two doors, I had a 'tv moniter' behind me (comp screen), and he said I had a mirror to my left and a window to my right.  The truth is reversed, but later he showed me a digital pic that happened to include a picture of his window.  It had moulding around it similar to my mirror, and my window has none.  And, I'd been in sad mood thinking of him at that moment.

As if that wasn't enough... this next one just sold me.  I never doubted after this one.  I met a shy guy in Washington state from an old OBE board.  He only told me his first name and state, and that he was not near the beach.  From talking I knew he had a dog and often said he's going 'out to the deck' in his backyard.  We tried testing telepathy with a very poor success rate and always agreed to try meeting for proof.
After trying for quite a while, I was finally obe, AND remembered to try to see him.  I thought 'washington' and focused on my idea of him.  I felt fast movement and the imagery was a little dreamlike but I felt like I was following the Western coast, then I shot up high and looked down at what really looked like a satellite image of the Washington Penninsula, mostly green with little white specks for building clusters.  I focused again on my idea of him, turned East, and visualized a line going straight to him.  I zoomed down and eastward until I was over a clearing in the trees.  I saw a swimming pool but it morphed away as I focused on the house and landed.  I was in a clearing with patchy grass surrounded by tall pine trees.  The wooden deck was just a deck now.  The house had a single, small window facing the deck.  There was a bluish grey truck parked on the grass, and I went over to look in.  In the cabin was something green, indiscernable.  I felt like I was about to wake up, and as I did I saw a shot of the front yard's driveway with an old red fourdoor car in it.  I immediately wrote down all the facts so my memory could not warp them later.  When I talked to him online, he was shocked and confirmed everything - backyard faces west, one small window, truck and color, and the red car was rare - a relative's, visiting the day before xmas.  His dad, at that time, was asleep in his truck, wearing a green sweater.  There was no pool and I may have been off on the roof color, but the deck was the only thing I was 'expecting' to find, and "pool deck" is a more common use for a deck.

Sadly my excitement and ambition in trying for an OBE died off some after this, and I've been more interested in the astral.  The few times I've made it, it felt just a bit more 'real' than this 'reality'.  Problem is, unless I meet a fellow OBE'er or relative with secrets there, I see no possible way to prove it.  But at least now I don't have to.  I'll resort to assuming that if experience A feels just like reality and is confirmed, then experience B that feels even more real must too be real.  

In proving things to other people, trust is the key issue.  I first have to trust that the people confirming things to me are truthful, then you have to trust that I am.  Even if there was a scientific study and it was proven, you could say the scientists themselves are faking.  I don't think it is, but the Crossing Over show could be an organized hoax.  If I never had my own experience, I think the only one I'd trust would be if someone finally wins that million dollar challenge in Australia :)  I think no one's won yet because they expect a 100% reliability rating.  

I've had many dreams where I look at a clock or book and the characters go all crazy.  I wouldn't bother with a number test.  One time I did try, and I got 7 different possible combinations.  Again the problem would be the card is a new object, and would take time to form a copy in the etheric.  I think my brother still has a bunk bed in the etheric.  Would a description of the more solid objects in your room be enough?  And is there any way the experiement could be repeated for further cash?  Imagine making a salary out of OBEing.. there's your practical application!  heheh.


Title: Proof
Post by: stephen~ on February 06, 2004, 08:55:11
Nice post and one that I agree with completely. Very interesting RV and proof experiences btw.

Sadly my excitement and ambition in trying for an OBE died off some after this, and I've been more interested in the astral. The few times I've made it, it felt just a bit more 'real' than this 'reality'

I think real time projections do become a little unexciting in the end, once you've moved around a bit, looked in wonder at the similarity and disimilarity with the physical world, marvelled at the conclusion that you appear to have a real life outside your body, you realise that there's not actually much else to do, is there? Invisible, alone and unable to interact with anything, I also get the feeling we don't quite belong there and if it lasted any great length of time it would become tedious. Just the thought of spending eternity wandering around the real-time zone is quite disturbing. Actual astral projection may be even more impossible to prove, but at least you feel 'involved', that you belong there. It does seem more real in a sense, even though it can be completely indescribable at times.



Title: Proof
Post by: Tombo on February 06, 2004, 10:16:06
Hey stephen! How do I get to the astralplanes?


Title: Proof
Post by: FistOfFury on February 06, 2004, 12:24:19
(I haven't read the whole thread, scuse me if I repeat something)

Can you hear music while OBE/Ap'ing? Music is more tied to emotion, and you guys are trying to proove things with the physical. AP'ing is more linked to the emotions, then the physical.

You could do this. Go in seperate secluded room in your house, and turn on the radio to a station, and record it with a brand new recording tape. Put the volume loud, but low enough so that you can't hear it from the room you project in. Then go back to the room you will be projecting in. Project. Go to the room with the music, and memorize the song/commercial you hear. Wake up and go back and rewind the tape, and see if the song/commercial you heard while projecting is recorded on the tape. :)

This might not prove anything, but it would be fun to try.


Title: Proof
Post by: Kazbadan on February 06, 2004, 17:34:10
Li Yun: i rally didnīt understand your question. Are you asking what is an OBE?! Obe itīs "out of body experience". Many people argue (and iīm inclined to believe in that even more) that are able to get out (there souls) and go around there and see things. I donīt wanna to explain more because i donīt have shure wich is your question and it would be a waste of time explaining sometime that you didnīt ask for. Please, reformulate your question.

Nomus:Yes, the image itīs based on ball lightning from Magic the Gathering, a nice game. I used to be a player when younger. The image was made by me in the computer and iīve choosen it because itīs easy to make (in a program like 3dstudio). Indeed, red (the "color" card of the ball lightning) itīs not my color. I used to play a lot with blue and with decks invented by me...not like now that everybody uses decks from world champions. Do you play MtG too?!

Person: Nice report that ones, they are interesting....do you wanna to see the numbers in my room ?! please [:D]
BTW: why do you say that obes in RTZ are sad?! I love to walk or ride in bike in a little wood near my home. Iīm always riding there and in other places that are close ( 1 to 3 miles)  to my home. Iīm always seeing the same and never get bored.

I mean, if doing that in my carnal body itīs nice, i just canīt imagine the pleasure of doing the same in even better conditions:
- First: i could fly. Thatīs amazing! Flying itīs just great! The sensation of being greatly high in the sky, touching the clouds and look to the world below me...and suddenly make a nose dive...just great!

- Second: you are not in your carnal body: you are much more energetic and light than ever. You donīt have all the solid and carnal preocupations that you have while in the physical body.

-Third: you can go anywhere: if iīm never get bored (and even stay ecstatic) while seeing the same thinks ( the little wood and the river near my home ) so, i would be more happy if i could see great places like the Great Canyon, Yosemit, Amazon, and much others places. And this with the ability of flying (good, very good!) and with (maybe, iīm not shure because never AP) a more refined and lucid vision (is that so?!).

So, why do you say that AP on RTZ is sad? Is that because the astral planes are even great?! How do the like (describe them i would like to know more..)?! Are they even more real?!

thanks

PS: iīm waiting for obers to see the numbers: just think in "Portugal" and Kazbadan (there is only one in the world: i invented the name!) [;)]


Title: Proof
Post by: Person on February 07, 2004, 01:26:11
"Sadly my excitement and ambition in trying for an OBE died off some after this, and I've been more interested in the astral."
OBE's are not sad, it is sad to me that I lost my devotion for trying to have one.  I'd love to have more, but I procrastinate so bad!  (Almost every time I had one, I raised energy daily for a week).  There's a deeper story though, I think in trying to do self-healing I surfaced a fear, I think neg-related.  So going straight to the astral is "safer."  The fear was probably always there, but overriden by my joy in trying.  And now my life is so busy I need all the deep sleep I can get. :(


Title: Proof
Post by: holy reality on February 07, 2004, 22:29:17
"I think in trying to do self-healing I surfaced a fear, I think neg-related. So going straight to the astral is "safer." The fear was probably always there, but overriden by my joy in trying. And now my life is so busy I need all the deep sleep I can get. :("

What I'm about to say is going to be unpopular but:

Stay away from the psychic self defense forums. The same happened to me for a while, I got caught up in all these stories of negs and it made me think things like "are these dreams I had caused by negs? Is something really bad happening to me?" and this caused me to dream about negs and to have lots of bad experiences.

I don't t hink they are real. They could be, but I really don't care at all. My advice is to not worry about it, treat it as nothing more than a creation of the mind and if it happens a lot try and find some proof maybe.

I can't get proof. No legitimate conversations, nothing.

So basically I think it's a bunch of nonsense... negs may very well exist but you shouldn't worry about them. Just fight anything bad off and unless it's a recurring experience, don't let it get to you.

If it is keep all possibilities open and try to hold conversations with them.


Title: Proof
Post by: Kazbadan on February 09, 2004, 17:01:46
As you may now, iīm not an ober, but i think you are wright Holy R..

First: i think that the majority of negs are just creations of the mind. Robert Bruce is the first saying that while in the astral we can creat objects as we imagine them. They are not real in a physical sense, but they are real in the astral. While in there if you imagine that you have hands, they will appear. So, i suppose that if you think in negs, you will se them.

Second: Besides that, equal atracts equal (or the like, english itīs not my mother tongue). This means that if you go to the astral with fear you will find something related with that (negs, etc)

I think that the solution itīs to avoid thinking in that things and stay away from self-mind-defenses forums unless you really have a problem. And i mean a problem like being possessed, being haunted and the like. So, thinking that you maybe are being chased by negs or that you donīt have shure that the shadows  you see are negs, are not problems but  imaginated problems.

At a time ago i had the same question "And if i find negs?" and that stopped me from trying obes. Now i donīt think in demons, or negs or possessions and the like, but just in the pleasures and spiritual development that obes can give me. Now iīm a little more near from getting my first obe than before. Well, maybe just in the holydays because i have little time for sleep and i have insomnias but at least my fears from getting obes are almost finished ( i say almost because there is always that fear of the unknown).


About my experiment, i will take out the numbers this week, before that i would like to see someone trying to look at that them. [:)]


Title: Proof
Post by: Li Yun on February 11, 2004, 14:36:27
Kazbadan: it was me who missread when you said obes experience, for some reason i didn't click you meant out of body, I thought it might be a type of dream state and the word for it was 'Obes'
whoops!![:D]


Title: Proof
Post by: beavis on February 14, 2004, 21:26:36
If hadnt seen proof (no i cant reproduce it) that OBE is real, I would think I'm crazy.


Title: Proof
Post by: Kazbadan on February 14, 2004, 21:49:20
what proof is that? any experience? share that with us please...


Title: Proof
Post by: Nomus on February 26, 2004, 08:11:09
quote:
Originally posted by Kazbadan
Nomus:Yes, the image itīs based on ball lightning from Magic the Gathering, a nice game. I used to be a player when younger. The image was made by me in the computer and iīve choosen it because itīs easy to make (in a program like 3dstudio). Indeed, red (the "color" card of the ball lightning) itīs not my color. I used to play a lot with blue and with decks invented by me...not like now that everybody uses decks from world champions. Do you play MtG too?!


Yes, although I don't use the world champs decks. Where I live, everyone has their own decks, and no two decks are the same! Some are similar but different.

When I get out I'll be sure to try the thing you talked about.


Title: Proof
Post by: Tombo on February 26, 2004, 09:20:07
Hello Beavis

What do you mean by "I can't reproduce it"? You have no interest in doing so, or you would like to, but are not able to?

Cheers Tom


Title: Proof
Post by: Kazbadan on February 26, 2004, 16:49:37
Beauvis: what proofs do you speak about? What proof is that, that makes you believe in obes? tell us your story please.

Nomus: Yeah, i like to build and use my decks, not any non-original-champion-deck. Everybody here in my ccity is stupid! They only know to play with champion decks! I think that a few (3-4)friends of mine and i  are the only one playing with original decks!


Title: Proof
Post by: kiauma on February 26, 2004, 17:40:06
On a very closely related topic, from www.onion.com:

VOLUME 35 ISSUE 01 — 13 JANUARY 1999
Near-Death Experience Followed By Right-On-The-Money Death Experience
PORTLAND, OR — A near-death experience was followed by one of the right-on-the-money variety Sunday, when local mechanic Gabe Hoover narrowly averted fatally choking on a chicken bone, only to be run over by a city bus later the same day. "As I began to lose consciousness from the lack of oxygen, I saw a bright, welcoming light, and I heard a voice calling out to me that sounded like my deceased mother," said Hoover, describing his near-death experience an hour before being struck dead. "I felt incredibly at peace, but then, suddenly, another voice told me to go back, saying I wasn't finished with my work on Earth." Hoover continued his work on Earth for another 64 minutes, at which point he hit the death nail right on the head, walking swiftly and directly into the light.



Title: Proof
Post by: Tombo on February 28, 2004, 08:31:39
@Kazabadan: I do play a lot of magic as well. Of course I use a original deck. I mean how boring is that, to just copy someone's deck! One can't even be proud if one wins when playing with somebody elses deck!
My deck would crash these "champions decks" anyway, Hahahahaahahaahaaa
[}:)]


Title: Proof
Post by: beavis on March 05, 2004, 23:02:16
Risu: I really don't see why proof matters.

Because you cant be sure its real without proof.

Even if these out of body experiences were merely lucid dreams, they're still something many people enjoy and like having.

Thats a good reason to do it, but that doesnt decrease the value of proof.

Why would hundreds (thousands, or more, maybe?) of people make up so many stories and describe them all in almost hte same way?

They might do it to be like other people, which is common. They might see some small similarity to their experience and fill in the details from theory.

Who is to say what is "real?"

Everybody is to say. Something is real if it can affect other real things, if it can be experienced in some way. Being real does not require it be what you think it is.

But I'm sure its real.


Title: Proof
Post by: Tombo on January 19, 2004, 09:20:42
Some people may find it a boring question but I think its very relevant.
Who has a 100% Proof that it is possible to visit our "real World" during an OBE. I think that is a extremly interessting question.
Please be very honest to yourself: Did you ever see something during an OBE which turned out to be true and which was impossible for your brain to create from your waking experience only.
For Example: You Saw a Nail inside the Wall during an OBE, broke the wall apart in the morning and there was really a nail.

Why do proofs matter:

-I'm curious
-the better you understand something the better you can use it. What could be bad about knowing as much as possible about OBE's? It helps me interprete the experience if I know as much as possible about the nature of it.
-I want to know if I'm really walking thru our neighbours has our if it just a fantasie, is that so hard to understand?
Lets assume you see a beautyful girl during an OBE. Don't you wanna know if she's really alive?[:P]
Common people! I don't believe that you don't care about that Issue. If we stick together we can uncover the truth.