The Astral Pulse

Psychic and Paranormal => Welcome to Psychic and Paranormal! => Topic started by: Lockmar on January 29, 2004, 11:56:09



Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Lockmar on January 29, 2004, 11:56:09
Hi,

I have several questions. Is psychic self-defense bad in all situations? Do your guides believe negs and demons really exist and if they did, how should they be dealt with? Moreover, if a person was really attacked by a neg, how should they be dealt with? I will contend that there are certain methods which provide psychic self-defense while fostering a positive attitude.

Thanks.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on January 29, 2004, 12:50:28
Hello Edi,

I would simply like to say that I applaud your voice of insight and reason among all the doomsayers who frequent the PSD forum.

'Spirit' is what we are, which is why love, or focused violence, defensive or otherwise, will always be reflected in our experience of the spirit realms.

I look forward to all your advice and guidance on this matter.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Li Yun on January 29, 2004, 13:50:29
I think thats great advise for everyone as this forum may at times seem abit like neg central....however I found this place beceause i've experienced a strong pressure on my face and eyes and mouth for ages and after too long with it I used google serch engine to see if it came up with anything....and enity attchment turned up linked to this forum...
I am not strictly under attack as that sound perhaps victimised but it is bloody ennoying!! however it has to be said if i don't give it time in my mind it isn't very strong, but if i think about it it is strong..anyway I hope i'm not drifting from topic, but yes in the mind it may be...but i pretended it was nothing for two years and am still feeling...
I am in no way trying to contradict but i am just trying to explain the situation. I am still a happy active person though which counts for alot!!![;)]


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Edi on January 29, 2004, 13:56:33
Hey,

Kiauma, you are so right in what you say about 'Spirit' - and I think this does not only apply to the spirit realms, but also to life on earth, only that the 'reflections' need more time to manifest here.


Lockmar,

those are very good questions for this thread, and are exactly what needs to be talked about. I'll step back and let my guide Perena continue:



"It is necessary to reevaluate the whole concept of psychic self-defense. For this it is necessary to see what you are trying to defend against, and what effects this has in turn. Basically, psychic self defense is about trying to prevent someone else from making you uncomfortable, be it a spirit or a person in the flesh. Now people often are confused about what is a neg, what is an illusion, what is 'real' and what is only projected outwards. We will come to more technical issues later and will talk then what common phenomena (negs, poltergeists etc) are about, but for now let's concentrate on one person. I will again use an example situation to illustrate my point.

Imagine you have a certain insecurity: you don't feel comfortable with an aspect of yourself. You might feel and think "I am not loved", with some other related negative thoughts. So you go around in this world, constantly trying to find acknowledgement, and if you don't get that you're down and depressed. Because you want to be happy (of course) and think you need outside acknowledgment for that, you get upset if someone deliberately shows antipathy towards you and rejects you. Because this fear of rejection is always present within you, you also mistake 'neutral' situations for a personal 'attack' on you. But because you do not want to acknowledge this as your own problem, you start to think like "Other people are always picking on me. I have to be strong, I have to compete, I won't let them hurt me!"

So what do you think: do you really have to defend yourself there? There is nobody attacking you, it is just that certain influences from the outside remind you of the things inside yourself you didn't come to terms with. Those influences can be anything: random 'thoughforms' floating around; ideas by other people you pick up intuitively; someone who wants to harm you; or a spirit who himself has troubles. But remember that all those things, conscious or not, evil or not, can do only one thing: point the finger on you and say "Hah! Nobody loves you, eh?" Can you see how you automatically then fall into the mechanism of denying yourself, 'attacking' in return, trying to fend off that 'neg'?

Of course nobody is perfect, and everyone knows that he has potential to grow. But you also have to accept this then, to see any shortcomings with love and compassion. "So what, I'm not perfect, but I can handle that!" should be the reponse that keeps you out of trouble and emotional unrest with a smile. Nobody is bad or worthless only because he is trying to stretch his limits by experiencing and overcoming some difficulties in his life - that's evolution.

There are no negs out there just waiting for the innocent. Forget the concept that the universe is a dangerous place. There are spirits, though, who sometimes are attracted to people in order to point fingers, in the sense of "give me your energy, do what I want, and (maybe) I will stop bugging you!" What you call a 'neg', though, is normally not more than emotional garbage hanging around. By fearing, you pump it up like an air balloon and create the exact thing that you fear. And what's more, any spirit, with whatever intentions, can not reach your attention and stay there without your consent.

If you fear, you attract and manifest the very thing you fear. If you put resistance to it, it will continue to stay there. But if you're calm and relaxed, you decide what you want to see and what not.  If you're stable and content with what you are, any negativity that would like to reach you would just slide off and you would remain unharmed. And even if something disturbs you, say 'hello' to it, see what it has to tell you and all will be okay."




That's it for now, I and my guide prefer to do this from a common-sense point of view at first. This lays out some ground for more detail later on and keeps it all clear and intelligible. We also leave some things uncovered so others can give their contribution, this way a natural discussion can evolve... and after all I'm interested in how others see those things.

With love and light,
  Edi


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on January 29, 2004, 14:14:59
Thank you again Edi.  Everything you have said correlates perfectly with my experience.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on January 29, 2004, 16:35:56
I've had just about enough of this. THis is a conversation Mayatnik had with me at the end of December 2003:

MAYA says:
Greetings !  
I saw your recent post on the Reptilians thread...... Eccellent, balanced and just what was needed !  Much appreciated by me... and hopefully will hit its mark with those who have not thought about all this that is happening now.

Dark Knight says:
Yes

Dark Knight says:
Thank You

MAYA says:
I could have sent that by email, but I much appreciated your thinking and foresight, so value your friendship on Messenger anytime you want to chat about any subject.

Dark Knight says:
Thank you

MAYA says:
Please don't feel we have to talk about 'spiritual' matters (whatever that word means).... I have many contacts on Messenger from the AP, and with quite a few we don't even approach that 'subject'...... nevertheless, there is great value in interchange of any kind, and we all gain much by interaction.

Dark Knight says:
It's nothing personal...I just walked in the door after driving from the American Midwest all the way back to the American East Coast. Tomorrow I have to go back to a job I'm unsure about and somehow have got to make work, given all the debt I'm in thanks to the last two daffy dimwits I received "help" from. I've had to compromise so much of myself to stay afloat, I'm not sure there is much left

Dark Knight says:
of "me".

Dark Knight says:
I'm tired, and would like to just take a break from life for about 5 years. It's not going to happen.

Dark Knight says:
I'm trying to figure out whether or not to talk to you right now or not. I don't know, that's the problem.

MAYA says:
I understand completely.   I didn't want to disturb you, since you'd only just come 'online' on my list.....and I merely wanted to show my appreciation of your input on the AP in general, and that one I mentioned in particular.  As to you being unsure, tired and not knowing whether you 'want space' right now, all I can say is that sometimes a chat for as long as you feel like, is often a 'reviver'

MAYA says:
but I am happy to talk now, or at another time.  I am here for when you want to talk, without pressure.

Dark Knight says:
Can you help me with one thing for a moment

MAYA says:
Anything you want.  

Dark Knight says:
I made a small breakthrough only a few blocks from arriving at my house. I started hearing someone talk to me, but I have learned too often that the ones on my case impersonate and take advantage of situations to so I constantly stay tuned in to them. Can you at least ask my guide, the greys, whoever, with whom I was hearing just a few short blocks from home. I am trying to differentiate between

Dark Knight says:
energies. I don't like asking for outside help, becomes to easy to become addicted instead of doing it myself. But I have no reference, it all feels the same. That's why I ask.

MAYA says:
I know your 'situation' in all this......and the first thing I have to say is, that I merely help people to examine what is there before them, not give the 'answer' - because that would defeat the object of the lessons given to you by the guides.  I can ask the guides, mine OR yours or others.anything specific you want to ask...and then we could talk about it if you wish.

Dark Knight says:
Go head

MAYA says:
What would be your first main question about this then?

Dark Knight says:
Maybe I should just let them supply whatever. Can you open and see if they have any comment about anything (including saying nothing at all).

MAYA says:
Yes.  Let them 'supply whatever', certainly.  Because closing or blocking or even differentiating by 'conditioning' would not take you forward, quite obviously.  But, what is being presented is subtle, and not 'face value' in many respects, so don't look for the 'obvious' as it seems to come over here.........there is a reason why the guides are presenting things to you in this way at this time.  

MAYA says:
And that we could talk about here, or you could ask specific questions of your guide here (through me -- or even direct..... but relay to me the 'response' they give, so that we can discuss what is so presented).

Dark Knight says:
I need my guide, honestly

Dark Knight says:
I'm not even sure if I have one

MAYA says:
You DO have a guide........and your guide wants to have communication with you.....but it is at the moment not easy for you, for varioius reasons, so your guide is 'presenting' scenarios... often 'impersonating' in order for you to walk through  various 'experiences' that will lead you eventually to clarity in this...... there is a strong element of 'conditioning' breaking that is being done here.

MAYA says:
What I can do here, to help, is to 'monitor' any dialogue you have with your guide.....so  that I can verify to you whether you are receiving correectly, and what the 'content' is about.

Dark Knight says:
Of course, I was brainwashed for God sakes, I have to be deprogrammed. I assisted my perps the first 4 years and didn't even know it

Dark Knight says:
Hang on

Dark Knight says:
Give me 3 minutes, unless, how much time do you have?

MAYA says:
I'm fine for time......you do what you need to do........ I'll be here wheever for as long as you like  

Dark Knight says:
Give me three minutes.

MAYA says:
 
Dark Knight says:
Hang on, but while yo're waiting does my guide have a name

Dark Knight says:
Or too many names

MAYA says:
At the moment you do not have a 'specific' guide.  You have a number of guides (which amounts to the same thing, except that they are working to a 'plan' for your benefit, according to a 'supervisor' guide).  I know the name of your 'current' guide, Mela, but it can be any number - and at this time it is not important as they work a 'shift system' ... but each knows ALL about you.

Dark Knight says:
Oh lovely

Dark Knight says:
Human, ET, angelic

Dark Knight says:
ALL

MAYA says:
How you 'view' them is according to your perception, and your will to cross frontiers.  As you know, many like to think they are talking to their 'higher self' .....all talk THROUGH their higher self, and beyond that........well, that we can talk about for a moment....to see how you view things....ok?

Dark Knight says:
I'll live without it

MAYA says:
Ok

Dark Knight says:
Who is attacking me, or is it a guide effort

MAYA says:
Nobody is 'attacking' you as such......but you feel attacked......that is the 'effect' due to how things have been in the past........ You are not under threat from them at all, but in the past you have been 'imprisoned', severely repressed and even tortured BY HUMANS.  The guides are not like that, but you are being presented with scenarios for you to break free of those past chains.

Dark Knight says:
No government involvment, or am I taking you too literally

MAYA says:
I know exactly how they work,  because when I first started I was presented with ALL those things you have described in your posts....and I had to work through the various 'experiences' and treat them as a 'task'.

MAYA says:
There is no government involvement in RV-ing you.........they can not RV an individual UNLESS the guides permit......they knoow this, and it is well documented by them anyway that they are often frustrated when they have tried.  So don't worry about that.

Dark Knight says:
But there IS government involvment?

MAYA says:
There is no government involvement in this, Karek assures me on that.

Dark Knight says:
Jet black leathery skinned looking things?

MAYA says:
Me: Are such beings confronting DK?
K:  No.  It is a 'front face' that is being presented by a guide.  This along with 'words' paints a picture for DK to examine in a practical way by interaction with these 'beings' presented.  The task here, is to interact.....and to talk only if those 'beings' are polite.....otherwise there is no point in conversation.

Dark Knight says:
I'm in a holodeck confronting things that aren't real...like a training

MAYA says:
Very much so.

MAYA says:
You can benefit greatly from those situations.  They are closely monitored as to how they progress or not......and the next 'scenario' will be the result of how you deal with each.  

MAYA says:
I have interacted with ACTUAL beings (not my guide 'impersonating') and can deal with those diplomatically too with benefit to THEM by that interaction.........but you will NOT be given that opportunity until you are fully ready and can deal with ease in any such situation.  This is merely 'training'.

Dark Knight says:
So the government may actually come after me at some point, or is it just a convenient scenario

MAYA says:
Yes......the government may indeed become 'interested' in you, but it will not be a problem - and it will not be permitted in any case unless there is a good reason (hardly likely!).  I have had interaction (very much so!) with the government people - many times, from MI5 - but I am very highly trained, and they are not in any way a problem.

MAYA says:
If you accept this as just a 'training' then please do not think "ah, well it isn't that important, just an exercise" ..........treat it as if it were REAL, and in that way interact....... ask them their purpose, and deal with it decisevely with them....above all, INSIST politely but firmly on etiquette at all times, otherwise tell them they must go until they can address you properly.  That's it.

Dark Knight says:
DO I Have to do this

Dark Knight says:
Do I have to go to 4D

MAYA says:
Well, the 'doing' is simply for you to have a good attitude to all this......if you have the attitude then you will not be confronted in the same way, simple as that.  But there will ALWAYS be various kinds of 'scenarios' as you proceed, these are 'tests' to see how you are progressing towards higher 'status'.....rather like 'exams'    I've been there, I know  

MAYA says:
When you 'engage' in interaction you ARE engaging in 4D.

Dark Knight says:
SO if I had died last year during the download, what would have happened

MAYA says:
Firstly, you will die when it is time - not before.  Secondly, please explain this 'download'

Dark Knight says:
The forced channeling of information that occured last year, I'm assuming to get me away from the last two dimwits

MAYA says:
I went through a similar situation, regarding 'downloads' and 'uploads' of various kinds....this occured within the first two weeks of my  'training', and then different kinds later on.  They seemed very dramatic at the time..but I went with the situation with curiosity....and learned many things as a result.  They said they were making a 'copy' of me on the ship, in case I died ... to transfer me

Dark Knight says:
I heard something similar

Dark Knight says:
Transfer you...do you mean soul or personality, traits, etc

MAYA says:
........this was for me to understand more of what was then a completely unknown realm......I had never even heard of channeling at that time!  I was suddenly thrust into the 'alien' thing when I started to investigate it with my Pendulum, and the telepathy came suddenly there and then.

MAYA says:
'transfer' is the <normal> way they travel.......what we would call 'teleportation'........ it is actually what happens when we die.... but they can just transfer their 'soul' (or transfer ours on death), and this is all done via their 'computer' ... which makes a new body at the new location, hence the 'old body' is redundant.  

MAYA says:
But, it was being 'presented' to me as a 'scenario' based on Truth.......for me to explore and ask questions.

Dark Knight says:
The greys, or all of THEM

MAYA says:
Essentially, it is the Greys (the Zeta Reticuli) who are in charge of the 'practicalities' at this time.....the Pleiadians are supervising...... each 'species' though has its own 'computer', and each of the main ones can incarnate on the Earth through their computer (done by 'birth' as we know it).... but they can 'transfer' themselves to any location............

MAYA says:
but in the case of their 'normal' (i.e. not incarnating) travel by teleportation, they create a silicon-based 'vehicle' (since a computer cannot replicate a carbon-based one, due to the inherent random-ness in carbon structure)

Dark Knight says:
So I have been picked up by the greys

MAYA says:
You have been in communication with the Greys (the Zeta .........only the US Government refer to them as the 'greys' in a derogatory and fear inducing sense)

Dark Knight says:
I call them the greys too, sorry but they'll have to deal with it

Dark Knight says:
They used Edi didn't they

MAYA says:
Me: Has DK been 'abducted' by the Zeta at any time?
K: Yes, this was done long ago....and is routine for checking DK's genetic and other related things, and also ongoing for DK to develop.  We are aware of Dk'S difficult past situations.

MAYA says:
I assisted Edi to make contact with her guide, and then later assisted him to be put into contact with the Zeta........this was carefully done VIA his guide.

MAYA says:
Some people have Zeta guides, some have Pleiadian....... they all work together.

Dark Knight says:
They used Edi didn't they

MAYA says:
The difference is in the 'computer'........so, Edi had to be put in touch telepathically with the Zeta by connection THROUGH the Pleiadian interface (like a telephone exchange)..........

MAYA says:
It dpends what you mean by the word 'used'  

Dark Knight says:
They used Edi to further the "government/ET" holdeck play

MAYA says:
No.   I monitored ALL the initial conversations, and I in fact keep a close check on all ongoing conversations with the Zeta that Edi and Fuzziwig and TruthSeeker have had.

Dark Knight says:
Edi was wrong about the government issue, or played along, or talking to someone from a different vantage point

MAYA says:
I followed your posts also........and I am satisfied with the 'state of play' that members are engaging in at this time......it is necessary for eyes to be opened on the AP, and a time of 'diversity'......which is why I went into the background for all that to take place, on the instructions of my guide.

MAYA says:
Edi was trained by me to become a Teacher.......so Edi is still learning (although very proficient by now) many things ongoing.

Dark Knight says:
Did Edi know or not

MAYA says:
Edi has Free Will, to learn at his own pace, and Edi is happy with his progress.

Dark Knight says:
I don't approve of vagueness and free will is not an excuse

MAYA says:
I am not trying to avoid any questions here...... but I cannot discuss another person like that.  So, I am talking to you about YOUR perceptions here, and will answer those direectly in whatever way I am permitted to your benefit.  The truth may or may not be acceptable to you, so it will not be given in that way......only pointers for you to think about, of YOUR OWN Free Will (which you have)

Dark Knight says:
The truth is already unacceptable

MAYA says:
Then talk about what you want to talk about, since Truth is subjective.

Dark Knight says:
Boundaries and morality are not

MAYA says:
Morality is devised by society for people to conform.  Boundaries are fences put up for people to be kept within.   What we are discussing in these subjects lies BEYOND those things.

Dark Knight says:
Boundaries are not fences, and you either have no idea what my concept of a "boundary" is or you are playing with something not so light and nice

MAYA says:
What is 'light and nice' is entirely a matter of perception.......even the most 'evil' people (as perceived by society) did what THEY thought was right, all through history.  Some have been found to be 'right' since, and others society still does not understand why they did those things....and therefore classes anyone as 'evil' according to what a 'church' says.  Each person has their own Free Wil

MAYA says:
and if they restrict their thoughts to what others say they ought to do, then they are giving up that Free Will.   We are not even talking specifics here.

Dark Knight says:
If you recognize only self, what about service to other

Dark Knight says:
And personal responsiblity

Dark Knight says:
I'm being played with and it is inaapropriate

Dark Knight says:
This conversation is ending now

MAYA says:
If you do as others wish, rather than what you wish.......then you are being controlled........it is not good to be controlled, in fact to control is SERVICE TO SELF, by definition.

MAYA says:
I would suggest you stay well within your 'boundaries' (set by others) till you feel differently.......that is Free Will.

Dark Knight says:
I am being played with...I'm blocking you from any further conversation


I couldn't care less if you believe the gov't is attacking me or not. Who is attacking me is not important as how.

If what Mayatnik says here is true, then guides will do anything, break any boundary to teach you a lesson. I cannot and will not believe that, it goes against everything I ever was taught about guides...before all this crap happened to me.

Remember how the Nazis used Jews as test subjects in some of the most inhuman experiments ever devised? They believed the means justified the end, that it was acceptable to sacrifice and torture a person, if the information gained would lead to valuable information with tackling disease or advances in weaponry. The lesson was more valuable than the person.

There has to be trust for growth to occur. There has to room to walk away. If you make the lesson more valuable than the person, then you defeat the entire purpose of coming to the planet (and you are no better than a Nazi yourself as far as I am concerned). There are limits, boundaries which should never be crossed. The wrong sacrifices are made when those limits and boundaries are crossed. NO guide would ever make the lesson more valuable than the person. Of all the voices I hear, the one I trust the most is the one that says, [Dark Knight] do what you think is best. Then I take all the benefits and blunders and claim responsiblity for my actions.

I'm seeing too much crap of people pulling into themselves instead of reaching out to others.

In order to defeat a problem, a person cannot be less than the problem, cannot be equal to the problem, they must be greater than the problem.

People on this site only want to give so much than get upset and whiney when it isn't enough, as if people should be gracious you gave so little while you're bleeding to death (as if it were your hides on the line).

The only one that knows your best interest is you, you are the expert on your own experience. Any positive entity guide will say that. I'm suspicious of the ones that don't (especially the ones that choose to be deliberately vague...vagueness can lead to circular arguments and you can justify just about any action without consequence).


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on January 29, 2004, 16:41:47
I know some of you will ask...

I am doing great! Something interesting happened the other night and it has improved my situation dramatically (along with Spectral Dragon's Help).

I went to bed Monday night after reading several chapters of Carol Rutz's book, "A Nation Betrayed" (you know, the woman I keep talking about that was a child test subject of MKULTRA http://my.dmci.net/~casey/ I highly recommend the book and you can get it off of her website). I was really depressed when I went to bed...this woman had electric shock therapy done to her to create multiple personalities, personalities that could be programmed to be a spy, an assassin, whatever. Among other things, she was brought to the Michigan Upper Penninsula, stripped naked, all had limbs dislocated and was repeatedly raped by her doctor while the men around her told her what a "good little girl you are, We love our little girl." On another occasion she was driven by her father to an airport hanger and brought to a place where child subjects of MKULTRA were stripped naked and placed in hanging cages for long periods of time,...every time a child nodded off, they would be prodded with electric prods by some guy with long finger nails, I mean just gross. I recognize some of the techniques that were being used...my emotions were repeatedly cloaked so I couldn't feel them but I was astrally raped and molested and felt my body react. I couldn't feel anything, was having all my boundaries annihilated, but I was repeatedly, sexually touched in the right way to produce a pleassant reaction that I was allowed to feel. You're human, you can't just not live without emotions. You have to feel something. I resisted for the most part, but I won't lie, I cracked every once in a while. I went to bed feeling sick, feeling like all the hell and torture I am going through was based on researching the torture of a 4yr old Carol Rutz done some 40yrs ago. It made sick!

I had problems falling asleep, finally did, but then woke up in the middle of the night. I felt a presence and some how realized it was a group of positive greys. Something was being done to my energy and the protective seals around me. Then I heard a voice speaking to the negs in the room saying, "We're going to let you in." I was really wondering what was going to happen. I felt the grasping and clawing and pushing on me and occasionally heard, "I want in" but they didn't get in, they couldn't get in!

The next day I told Spectral Dragon, he did a search on me after noticing that the seals had been altered...apparently my will is strong enough now, I am keeping them out. But there is also something else. SD found a device attached to me that is giving me energy...neutral energy not positive or negative. IE, I am being given energy but I decide which polarity to use it for. My free will has been honored and respected for the first time in 6 years.

All in all, I feel great and positive about the future for the first time in a long time.





Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: shaman on January 29, 2004, 18:24:58
As posted in the Religions section of AP, from the Zohar, things that a person thinks and do, if they are (say) "bad" or "mean" (e.g. feeling of hatred) can "come and join the demonic forces / join forces with the demon spirit, molding itself into the exact image of that human, moving into his house to torment him. Sometimes his stay is for the good, if one purifies himsel. If not is is a horrible visitation."

This is clearly an allusion to some form of Negs, created by the person him/herself.

There is allusion also that the opposite is also true where the person who does right God will guide hims always and satisfy his soul with sparkling of flashes.

From there we can explain someone who radiates golden light on one side in contrast with some who radiates Negs, probably of dark appearence (in contrast to the sparks).

It is clear then that to get rid of Negs and other "horrible visitations", one has to have positive thoughts and has to "purify" him/herself. These things are just projections that we make from here into the astral realm.

May the light shine upon you and on your way!


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on January 29, 2004, 18:52:49
I really do not know what to say to such a virulent negativity as yours DK, so I shall not even try.

I am glad you are feeling better, it can only mean you are feeling much more in control of yourself.

Indeed, may the light shine upon you and on your way.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Nay on January 29, 2004, 19:20:57
I know what I want to say, of course....I can't.. but I have one question, does Maya know that you posted a conversation that he thought was between just you two?  If he did..wonderful, if not..how totally rude and disrespectful of you.

I really hope you get the true help that you need.  I would like to come to the forums and read one of your posts and actually come away with a good feeling and not the anger, hate, confusion, and defensive feeling I get from reading your words......*sigh*

I guess that last post was a bit more upbeat, but eh...still had the left over feelings from the first one.

I will try and do better...
Nay.[:(]


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: taom1234 on January 29, 2004, 19:52:16
To edi's spirit guides message;
From my own experince with APing and entering endless realms of consciousness, I agree wholeheartedly with your words.  When I APed, I always oberved rather than reacted so as not to build any fear into my mind and it has worked every time for me. There are what appears to be and infinite amount of energy in all types and forms visible and invisible flowing through the universe.  If we were to preceive all these forms as so called "enimies" or "negs", then we would react with a sense of threat and end up creating our own perception of them into a real and tangible force that will haunt us. Hence, we end up hauting ourselves through our own reactions.

Obviously your guides are very aware of all the posts in this forum which have motivated them to respoind, and they must be aware of some of mine too in regards to helping my girlfriend.  I don't know if they would feel that is worth their time and effort to more clearly elaborate on a common problem that many people have, but if they are so inclined to do so.... my question to them would be   "how can one remove a subconscious spell cast upon them in their time of innocence when at that particular time in their lives they had no real means of knowledge for dealing with the outcome"???  as was with my girlfriends case and I am very very sure as with many who have had the same thing done to them, she did not have anyway in her younger years to react but to react with understandable fear when the loud and rude voices instaneuosly appeared in her mind.  Becasue of her innoncence in not understanding that it would have been better for her if she would have reacted in a calm and unfrightened manner, this thoughtform has grown with her for 15 years and it seems such a waist of her life in having to be tortured relentlessy, because a few idiots long ago decided to perform a ritual on her?  Is the universe so cruel as to allow this type of torment to continue without any real remedy?  I myself feel that there must be a simple way to undo what has been started.  If her persecutors had the knowledge to instantaneously deliver rude and obnoxious voices into her mind, then there also must be simple knowledge available to reverse the damage that has been done. Please take the time to answer this through this forum or through my own guides.  You obviously have intent to help us grow through sound knowledge. Thanks


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: need on January 29, 2004, 22:14:50
I've read this thread and I think this is one of the most important and mind expansive issues ever raised. Indeed what is wrong with Psychic Self Defense.

I've found many techniques that are supposed to work do not work. So what do we have to work with, we go around trying what is supposed to work, it doesn't, then keep reading everywhere that this one, or two or three techniques will work, but it's only repeating the same stuff. Repeatedly we see visualizations to do, or meditations but what happens when all the techniques you know do not work. There is a complete lack of synergetic provable scientific knowledge. We're operating on hearsay no matter what our experience is. From what I've seen and experienced the psychic business really has a bit of a way to go before it could ever be taken seriously.

There are many issues in great need of discussion to determine what is the point of it. Too many people are going around in need of major help and wasting their money on professional psychics and healers who in many cases make everything much worse at great mental and financial cost. Have a look around and you will see that there are too many people who have been ripped off or haven't be helped. One too many in my opinion. Some of our life stories sound so bizarre that let alone "normal" people ,even supposedly psychic people can find it hard to believe us. At worse those in need of help are told the same repetitive stuff brainwashed into us on what to believe and what to do to solve problems and their "text-book" knowledge does not work. Where does this leave us , inside the box, never able to think outside the box, we don't have the ability to go beyond and everyone is telling you ,you have it wrong ,or that you're , in so many ways not following  what has been set out for you in all these books, soceities and God knows what else. The psychic industry has been thought out well before any of us ever got into it. Start searching and you'll realise how much it doesn't do ,in contrast, to what it is advertised to do.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on January 29, 2004, 22:32:19
This is a channelling I am putting out with my Guide and guardian, a pheonix called Kereen.

"fear leads to fear, this is the problem with this place at this particular moment, nothing more, nothing less. It is entirely possible to be possessed by a neg or demon, but the chances of this happening are "slim to none," and at most only about 20 or so people should be possessed in the world. Other psychic problems caused by people practicing magic and other arts are a different story altogether.

As far as lesser negs go they are too weak for the strong human soul to conquer. You should not fear these entities. They are made simply to survive."

She will say more later, and she would have talked to your guide directly on this, edi, but she feels that this conversation should come out in the open.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2004, 01:52:29
Hi Perena

I understand I am guilty in some aspect of the very thing you are talking about here, but I would also like to stress that I think the problem of the relationship between man and grey needs to be taken into account here. Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I have learned, greys do not feel emotion the way humans do (but I do not say that you lack emotion). I have been doing battle with energy draining spirits such as Litches, and with negs and/or demons (depending on how you define them). I do battle with them only when they are harming another human being. I will never harm another human being because I understand that each of us is an aspect of a great Source or Spirit, and to destroy each other is offensive to this Spirit or Source. We humans, from what I have learned through practice of qi gong, are here to interact with each other. We have to do what feels natural to us, good or bad. I am sure you understand the reason for this already but I'd be happy to explain if you wish.

What I see here are two extremes: your (Edi's) post expresses one extreme, and I guess mine or others' posts would express the other. There needs to be a balance found so that it accomodates man's mistakes. We still must learn to grow, however. Everything that happens will happen and there is nothing anyone can say or do to change it. It is the equation of destiny. Even if one were to go back in time to change something, it is still written into the equation that that would happen. This seems to negate free will. So the question is, are we free? My guess: we are free to follow the ways of nature, because that is the only choice available to us. So, maybe we aren't free after all.

Then again, maybe we are...


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Nick on January 30, 2004, 02:28:35

quote:

Originally posted by kiauma

'Spirit' is what we are, which is why love, or focused violence, defensive or otherwise, will always be reflected in our experience of the spirit realms.





 
quote:

Originally posted by Perena (via Edi)

Where a natural approach to explore those things in a calm and positive way would do the job, the fear and negativity instilled by people who like to 'fight' and 'attack' for whatever reason does nothing to alleviate the problem - in fact it makes it worse!




Well I just came across this thread. I try to visit all the forums but have not spent much time here at this one. I have to say that I agree with what kiauma and Perena/Edi wrote above.

There must be some genuine self-defense that is needed from time to time. I fully respect what Robert has written, and posts I have read by Nita, a skilled astral healer, for example.

My sense though is that some individuals tend to focus on the negative, looking and finding 'negs' everywhere. Yet others seem to not be preoccupied with or focused on 'negs'. Perhaps they may be more centered on the 'positive', helping others, sending out goodwill and so forth. As a result, I believe these positive people are utilizing the first line of self-defense by such actions and mental outlook.

Certainly, if something truly negative manifests, (in addition to Robert's book) an astral healer can be sought out. There are methods employed by skilled healers that can be used successfully. Nita has a website and is an exceptional healer.

Lastly, the above represents my humble view. It is not meant to discredit those who hold a belief in a contrary view, merely to compliment those resposible for the quotes above, and present my own opinion.


All the best,


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Tayesin on January 30, 2004, 02:53:28

Hi All,
I applaud Ender Wiggin for showing the extremes that are spoken here, whether by humans or 'Guides'.  Very obviously the middle perspective is what is needed here.....isn't it highly possible that both sides of this discussion are actually correct, but only so far as the concepts being adhered to will allow ?  

Let's take the concept of using a protective shield.  We would not allow a baby to crawl near a road without an adult being there to insure it's safety while it learns to walk and digest the information about what is safe behaviour and what is not.  SO too with Potection.  It has a place in a persons early practices while they become acquainted with the ability to Journey at will and then to work with their own Guides until they become Self-empowered.  At which time they will know how to deal with what comes in the most effective manner.

I was taught back in the 70's that one should come to all practice 'as if naked',  meaning free from expectations, free from our own belief system rules and perceptions,  so that we can simply experience what comes while we are Journeying.  This is how I prepare to Journey.  And in the many years that I have been regularly Journeying I have come across all kinds of Beings in the Astral realms and beyond.

Each Being had a unique feeling to them, making it easy to read them and their intentions.  At no time were any of these my projections as I was there without concepts of my own, simply being what I am and seeing what is.   And so I have a little difficulty with some of what is portrayed here, as it makes no allowances for the existance and intentions of other beings in this Universe.

At the same time a lot of Fear is expounded here too.  And ultimately our own fears are our worst enemies, and it may be possible to manifest them in the Astral as 'negs', although this cannot be and is not the only explanation.  Certainly the Universe is populated with the widest possible array of life forms...many embodied and many that are not, and in my own experience I see that there are some who choose to use their energy for the welfare of others and then there are those that choose to do the opposite!!  These then may well be what we could call 'negs'.

The fear approach is one in which the experiencer will attempt to attack the Being that is seen to be 'negative' to them, or to run away and hide from it, or many other possibilities that are regularly read in this section.   Ultimately, there is only one truly effective way to deal with these beings, and that is to Love them for the fear lessons that they are actually helping you with!!  There is no 'defence' for this, nothing can prepare a 'neg' for this sort of interaction, and in my own experience it will begin to change the Being from within....and that is doing service for the Creator.

While here, I am astounded by the unusual concepts that are being expounded by some people about Guides.  We all have Guides, we have primary guides who are with us during our entire life, we have others who I call helpers who are with us during phases of our life, we can have guides who are ancient friends of the Soul we truly are, and we can have guides that are manifestations of Earth energies.   Alien guides are quiet normal since we are all Souls of this Universe.

But, my problem here arises from the concept that we are assigned these Guides,  that they choose what lessons we MUST have, and that another human being can be involved in the Assigning procedure.  To start with, none of us need to have Guides assigned to us, as we already have Guides who we previously made contracts with before coming to be born here!  We all have a Primary Guide, the higher-self, and that is truth as born out from almost thirty years of Journeying.  

DO not allow anyone to disempower you by getting you to believe that this is not the case, for YOU are not a little soul in need of so much assistance and help from outsiders,  YOU are a Great Spirit in you own right, very capable of all that you chose to experience here.  IN fact, all that you NEED to do is to remember what you are and the way will be very clear.

SO please enjoy the conversations as they are written here, but remember that there is no substitute for having the experience for yourself, remember that much of what is written here is by people who have limited experience of their own,  including some that SEEM to be 'so spiritual'.  Rely on your own Guides for their support and help and do not be blinded by clever words and actions into being a pawn in something much larger than you are currently able to percieve.

That's me few cents worth.
Love Always, Tayesin[:)]


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kakkarot on January 30, 2004, 04:01:49
well i've stuck my foot in my mouth and gotten myself in trouble before by doing this but i'm going to post after having merely skimmed through the rest of the posts.

to all who think that you can't be hurt without your "permission", i think that's silly. the astral may be different than the physical in some regards, but some things are applicable everywhere. in the physical you could try and say that noone can hurt you without your permission by giving examples of someone slapping you or punching you and you just ignoring the pain.... except of course that if a truck runs you over, whether you gave it permission or not, it's either gonna hurt like hell or kill ya.

i think the same is true in the astral: for small and weak attacks, you can just ignore them and the pain they cause, but if an astral "truck" hits you (aka any being with enough force behind their blow to make you think it was akin to a truck) it doesn't matter whether you let them or not, it's still gonna hurt.

just my two cents. take it or leave it: as always, the decision is yours ^_^

~kakkarot


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Fuzziwig on January 30, 2004, 04:28:16
Hello everyone
I, as Edi have contact with my guide, who helps me in my development and in helping others. My guide Jopeha and I communicate through telepathy and that has led to work with channeling information. I havent had use of psychic selfdefence or similar myself, allthough i have worked quite a bit with rescuing spirits in many ways. Recently my guide has shown an interest in channeling information regarding psychic selfdefence, and so a piece of channeling done by me and my guide, will follow when i have commented with my guide on the previous posts.
Qoutes are marked in blue
My guide Jopeha is marked in maroon

Nay, you say:
(in reference to Dark Knights post)
"I know what I want to say, of course....I can't.. but I have one question, does Maya know that you posted a conversation that he thought was between just you two? If he did..wonderful, if not..how totally rude and disrespectful of you."
Mayatnik is currently moving to another house, and as such he can not speak on allegations made towards him in this time of moving. I know for a fact that Mayatnik didnt know of the conversation being posted untill they were posted, as i spoke to him on this matter. He has agreed to be qouted here from a conversation i had with him on msn on Dark Knights posting of the conversation.
Mayatnik says:
"I had no idea whatsoever.  James S had contacted me just after that conversation had taken place and he told me he'd been PM'd by Dark Knight, who'd sent him a copy of that conversation that night.   James S told me he'd sent a rather brief PM to Dark Knight in response saying that I was completely trustworthy and he told me that there were clear indications of paranoia in her reaction
I was merely commenting on her 'balanced' input to the forum in that particular post, and then she brought up issues in the conversation which led into me giving her   counselling - so it was sad that she suddenly blocked me, but that was her choice and I can only help if people want to talk, and her fear controlled her in that.
As for the publishing of that conversation, I have nothing to hide but it is not done to publish private conversations without permission.... and I think Nay expressed that well about DK's action there."

I have the relevant transcript of that conversation between Mayatnik and James S (that Mayatnik has just mentioned) but the actual conversation is of course private, a fact that Dark Knight does not seem to uphold.

Dark Knight you say:
"I've had just about enough of this. THis is a conversation Mayatnik had with me at the end of December 2003"
You post a personal conversation afterwards that has to do with some of your personal issues.  I dont see the relevance in what you present here on a thread as topiced : "What's wrong with Psychic Self Defence?". I understand that you want to write about this, but maybe another thread would be more suited for what you present.

"If what Mayatnik says here is true, then guides will do anything, break any boundary to teach you a lesson. I cannot and will not believe that, it goes against everything I ever was taught about guides...before all this crap happened to me."
What Mayatnik is trying to tell is that the guides have a plan for each individual, and from that plan acts are carried out by the guides. The guides follow that plan to ensure the well being of the individual, as well as the best possible development. When it happens that an individual is in a need for help, its provided as much as possible but still in accordance to the plan. If the plan is not followed by the guides, then the lessons in life are not initiated properly to the individual, which would cause the individual to miss out on lessons. This would mean that the lessons in life are not properly met, and as such the life the individual would live would be incomplete.

"I'm seeing too much crap of people pulling into themselves instead of reaching out to others."
The pulling you see is an expression of ppl being afraid of whats around them. They find that the immediate surroundings are too much for them to cope with, and so they hide within themselves.

"People on this site only want to give so much than get upset and whiney when it isn't enough, as if people should be gracious you gave so little while you're bleeding to death (as if it were your hides on the line)."
As my guide said, ppl that cant cope with their surroundings hide within themselves and offcourse some will try to extend their arm to reach whatever help they can get. I take it that you refer yourself as "bleeding to death", and if that is the case, im so sorry to hear that. You have your free will to use, and choose whether you want to give to others. I know that ppl may seem ungratefull for the help they recieve, but its by looking at the change in them that you see the benifits of that help given. That, in a way can be the appreciation for you, that is shown in the acts of the person. Ppl may not be strong enough or maybe too proud to be gratefull for the help they recieved. What matters is the change that we can make by helping each other out in many ways, and learn from each other.

"The only one that knows your best interest is you, you are the expert on your own experience. Any positive entity guide will say that. I'm suspicious of the ones that don't (especially the ones that choose to be deliberately vague...vagueness can lead to circular arguments and you can justify just about any action without consequence)."
The guides are often those who know the individual best, as they have access to the knowledge both conciouss and subconcious in the individual. When the individual experience something, a connection is created that combines the existing memories and the new ones, so as to create the illusion of a coherent life. When this happens, those same memories are stored in a database of a sort. This database is the one you know as the Akhasic records and stores all memories of living beings. The Akhasic record is used by the guides to establish a course of action in the individuals development to help the best way possible.

"I am doing great! Something interesting happened the other night and it has improved my situation dramatically (along with Spectral Dragon's Help)."
"All in all, I feel great and positive about the future for the first time in a long time."
Im glad to hear that your doing better, and i wish you the very best in the future.

Blackstream, I noticed that you made a post, but later edited it.
Here is what you wrote:
"I'm curious, why did you put this post here DK? This post is about whether or not Psychic Self Defence is more harmful than good. Are you trying to say that because he got his info from a guide that it should be discounted? Because otherwise this is a bit offtopic and should be in its own post"
You changed that post to :
"EDIT: Never mind"
The post you made stated your opinion, which is the right of all the members at the Astral Pulse. When you later edited the post to something like "never mind", you changed your opinion (which is as valid as anyone elses) to something unhelpfull. So what i would like to hear from you is, why you altered it ? Were you persuaded to alter your post by others ? What ever your reasons are, then i think that no voice should be held back or forced upon by others will. Its a free will world, and it should let us express ourselves without the restrictions of others. So i welcome your contribution as well as others to a constructive and open minded dialog.

taom1234 says:
"how can one remove a subconscious spell cast upon them in their time of innocence when at that particular time in their lives they had no real means of knowledge for dealing with the outcome"
The guides can usually not intervene without the consent of the person asking for the advice (this is mentioned too in Mayatniks conversation at page 1 ). Since this advice is for your girlfriend,  its adviced that she follows this thread and reads the advice. She is the one being healed from this spell, and so she must have a wish to be healed herself.
The spell that you speak of is something that can easily removed, because its a mere thoughtform that reacts upon new impressions. The impressions will remove the thoughtform and make sure that it doesnt return. The thoughtform consist of thoughts that hinder the individual in various things, but common for them are that they can be removed by exposing them to certain kind of information. Information that makes sure that the thoughtform is not needed anymore.
In the light of this, it would be benificial for her to gain such information. The information that could help her in this, would be channeled information as recieved by the help of the guides to make sure its accuracy and correctness.
This channeled information could come from many websites that claim they have such channneled information, however accuracy is of the essence when channeling and this is not allways the case with these websites.
I would recommend the channeling threads in the Communications section that Edi and myself are channeling at. We channel information through our Pleiadian guides who provide a telepathic connection to two alien species called the Zeta and the Reptilians. These being two species who work in joint venture in helping individuals on their own path to find the answers for themselves. They do this by providing answers to questions on any subject that the members might find interesting.

Channeling on psychic selfdefence provided by my guide:
The spirits that exists in the world today, has long been the subject of fear and misunderstanding. The spirit in itself is not a frightfull beast, but as it manifest itself through the use of energy that is sucked from its surrounding then it can become the subject of fear. When a manifestation like this takes place then its a clear indication that there is a need for help. A need for help that can be hard to deal with, when your surrounding are affected by these manifestations.
The ancient civilizations had these problems too, but instead of scaring the spirits away they would sit down and talk to the spirit and find out the problem, as to solve it. They didnt allways understand these spirits, but they expressed a will to understand, and that was sometimes enough to help the spirit on its way. There would be a wish to help the deceased beings, now spirits on the other side, because they knew that they would be in the same position one day, and such an understanding that they expressed, was much the same as the one they wanted to be met with as they crossed over. So by putting him/herself in the spirits shoes so to speak, there could be a constructive process of helping the spirit on the other side. Not only was this a way for the old people to know the afterlife, but also for young ones to gain an understanding of the afterlife, which they didnt know when they would meet.
When a conversation could be initiated with the spirit, there would often be a group of ppl that would listen as it happened and learn from these conversations. Not all could hear the spirits, and so the word was carried from the listeners to the non-listeners. Eventually they would gain the second sight and communicate with the spirits as well and create friendships, because the spirits would be in touch with nature. The nature was very important for some of these ancient civilizations, because the ppl in them yearned after a balance with everything. To gain the understanding of harmony was to gain understanding of nature, and by this idea they would explore and find out ways upon improvement.
The spirits were a part of that balance in nature which made sure, that they could be safe from harm in nature. So by understanding and helping the spirits, they would help themselves, and recieve help from the spirits in protection as well as guidance. The better the relationship could be, the better the balance with nature would be. This was the attitude of these ppl, and it took them far in spiritual development. They would seek out the problems that occured, and solve them often with the help of the spirits, but allways with a thought of returning the favor if that should be necessary. By a mutual understanding, much wisdom was made and an advanced civilization could be build on such a foundation. It developed in a steady pace where the individual could develop in a harmonious way without fear of spirits.


This shows me yet again, that fear is limiting to oneself, and creates negativity towards the feared. Negativity that not only takes it out on the possesor, but also his/her surroundings. By being open minded and tolerant, there is a truly a chance to walk on our path without the concreteblocks on our feet. Be light as a feather and become more than ever thought possible.

Light and Compassion
Fuzziwig


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Blackstream on January 30, 2004, 05:20:14
quote:
Originally posted by Fuzziwig

Blackstream, I noticed that you made a post, but later edited it.

The post you made stated your opinion, which is the right of all the members at the Astral Pulse. When you later edited the post to something like "never mind", you changed your opinion (which is as valid as anyone elses) to something unhelpfull. So what i would like to hear from you is, why you altered it ? Were you persuaded to alter your post by others ? What ever your reasons are, then i think that no voice should be held back or forced upon by others will. Its a free will world, and it should let us express ourselves without the restrictions of others. So i welcome your contribution as well as others to a constructive and open minded dialog.


I did receive a PM, but the choice to remove it was mine (I wasn't asked to remove it).  I had simply thought that DK's post had a purpose here as I realized you guys went a bit further back than I, so I thought there was some hidden purpose behind DK's post.  I see now I was mistaken.

I am however honored you noticed that I removed my post (and somehow knew what I originally said... did you save a copy of the thread or something?)[:)]


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on January 30, 2004, 10:27:47
Kereen:
"readers must keep in mind that any subtle thing you hear from a guide, especially the differences in statement, makes a difference.

I have stated something very close to what edi's guide has said. But the fact is that though some changes are necessary to avoid future people becoming confused, this has not happened on the scale that is suggested. There is no need to say things that demean a place of learning that has done much people good. Everyone should consider the people who have come here for help as people who are still learning and who are scared and try to find out if they are simply just scared or it they genuinely need help.

As stated before, actual demons are rare, but cases of humans attacking humans are increasing. I see through the eyes of this one that many like to label such things as what you call "thought forms," when a good amount of them simply cannot be."

More later.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on January 30, 2004, 11:21:47
I hear what you are saying Tayesin, and I appreciate it.

I feel perhaps I am getting too caught up in the defensiveness myself, so I find your post a breath of fresh air.

Thanks you.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Edi on January 30, 2004, 16:30:37
Hey all,

SpectralDragon, thank you for bringing in the viewpoint of your guide. The more opinions we see the better will we be able to understand the whole issue. As Tayesin said, "isn't it highly possible that both sides of this discussion are actually correct?" - yes, in my opinion this discussion is not about who is right or wrong, but about trying to understand each other's viewpoint, because every viewpoint is 'valid'... the fact that we're not alone in the world however imposes upon us the need to get along with each other, and to eventually discuss things.

Tayesin, the protective shield you mention is per se not the problem, it is the attitude that can come along with it. 'Protective shield' clearly implies that there apparently is something to protect against, and for many this can bring along a feeling of fear and defensiveness. If you get out to experience the universe, in whatever way, hygiene is necessary... physical, energetic, emotional, mental, you name it. By that I do NOT mean going out with an defensive, fearful attitude, expecting all sort of things to happen - I simply mean taking care of yourself. if you want also by consciously clearing your aura and keeping together your energy.
As for "no allowances for the existance and intentions of other beings in this Universe" ... this was not what me and my guide intended to put forward here, and I don't think the previous posts suggest so. We concentrated on a person who's new to matters of the spirit and how attitude affects him. There are lots of all kinds of beings in this universe, but this is the last and not the first thing we should worry about. We should first care about ourselves and our surroundings before we can step out to explore unknown fields.
On a personal note, I don't talk specifically about you here (especially regarding projecting fears), because I believe your experience to be valid and your perception to be accurate. I don't know you personally, and you too have limited experience as we all do, but to me you SEEM to be 'spiritual' and I welcome your contributions here :)

quote:
Originally posted by Tayesin
But, my problem here arises from the concept that we are assigned these Guides, that they choose what lessons we MUST have, and that another human being can be involved in the Assigning procedure.


I'll let Perena comment on that.


"Although a human being can be involved, the decisions about who gets assigned which guide are done solely at guide level, and the person is only involved to help others meeting their guide and has no influence whatsoever at the decisions the guides might make. All is planned according to the needs of the individual who wishes to get assistance. To comment further on the lessons that are brought forward by the guides for incarnated humans to experience: yes, we indeed choose these lessons. We do not force anyone to go through those lessons, though, and it is the free will of all involved with us to experience lessons for personal growth. Those lessons are no more than opportunities to find out more about yourself. What Tayesin writes about contracts made before life is true; these 'contracts' are the plan for life about the things a person chooses to experience. This includes persons someone is going to meet on earth as well as guidance that will be in the background all the time. But apart from this roadmap for life, there is a lot of room for personal journeys into whatever area is desired."


Regarding exaggeration in the way we present things, suggested by EnderWiggin and SpectralDragon's guide Kareen: it was the guides' clear intention to state a firm counterposition to the common viewpoint, so I find your remarks understandable. But I attribute this to the fact that there are many things that were not explicitely discussed yet, which would be necessary to see how it fits into the bigger picture.

Have a nice weekend,
  Edi


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on January 30, 2004, 16:51:37
Nah, don’t worry, this is definitely the last one…

And since channelings are going to take place in this forum maybe it would be a good idea for Spectral Dragon to start channeling Kereen every once and a while here, just get another “guide’s” opinion beside the ones hand picked by Mayatnik. I’m assuming the almighty guides would be open to another point of view besides theirs from another “service to other”, servant of the Creator guide? That’s not a problem is it?

quote:
You post a personal conversation afterwards that has to do with some of your personal issues. I dont see the relevance in what you present here on a thread as topiced : "What's wrong with Psychic Self Defence?". I understand that you want to write about this, but maybe another thread would be more suited for what you present.

Nooooooooooo way! This thread is perfect, thank you!

quote:
I take it that you refer yourself as "bleeding to death", and if that is the case, im so sorry to hear that.

No, I wasn’t referring to myself (and I haven’t felt like I was bleeding to death for a long while now).

 
quote:
“I applaud Ender Wiggin for showing the extremes that are spoken here, whether by humans or 'Guides'. Very obviously the middle perspective is what is needed here.....isn't it highly possible that both sides of this discussion are actually correct, but only so far as the concepts being adhered to will allow ?”

 Tayesin is right. What I see happening here are generalized, all inclusive boundaries. All the sudden PSD becomes polarized to black and white, each situation logged into either one of two categories with no respect paid to individuality (people are not black and white polarized). Hey polarize something to that grand an extent, you stop questioning, stop feeling things out,…becomes mindless dogma. Each situation is different, each person’s situation is different, and each person deserves more respect that to be mindlessly tossed into a black or white category.

Why all the focus on negativity? I think that depends on your definition of negative. Why no displays of positive? I guess that depends on your definition of positive too.

So now I’m quoting my old sensei again, “There will always be someone better than you, stronger than you, smarter than you, faster than you, and even if you think you are the best, everyone has a bad day.” There are a lot of people that have come to this particular forum in the past to find help and understanding, if I can quote Tayesin again:

 
quote:
“Let's take the concept of using a protective shield. We would not allow a baby to crawl near a road without an adult being there to insure it's safety while it learns to walk and digest the information about what is safe behaviour and what is not. SO too with Potection. It has a place in a persons early practices while they become acquainted with the ability to Journey at will and then to work with their own Guides until they become Self-empowered. At which time they will know how to deal with what comes in the most effective manner.”

Whether many of you like to hear this or not, we are linear entities, our focus and energy can only be divvied up so much. That’s why things like compromise, communication, and community are important. Many of us have been overwhelmed by our experiences and came here looking for all three c’s so we could cope. It was never meant to be forever, just until, as Tayesin says, we could stand on our own. Where is the positive!? We reached out to each other, consoled each other, learned from each, and it made the fear of what we were all experiencing more workable. That is the positive! It’s called coping skills. You don’t avoid fear and you sure as heck don’t deny a person’s right to feel fear, you move through it…and you can’t move through it without acknowledging it, feeling it, and experiencing it. Fear only destroys you if you hold onto it,…and that happens when you don’t acknowledge it or stop yourself or others from feeling or experiencing it. It creates a blockage of energy flow, and when that blockage occurs you experience anger. Blocked too long…it turns to hate. This is why it is important to allow people to feel and to validate feelings, their right to feel joy, happiness, pain, suffering, anger, fear. That’s what keeps the energy flowing.

Why acknowledge it, why not “be positive” at any cost? Because there are no substitutions for emotions. Same way you can’t replace any emotion with alcohol or drugs or food or shopping, you can’t avoid fear by “be positive” at any cost attitude. It’s a block…looks, walks, quacks, is a duck.

Oh but then comes the problem…like I said, you can’t reach out to help others without acknowledging fear is there…or that we can be overwhelmed by something. And a good chunk of you don’t wanna hear it. Suffering or any insinuation of being overpowered should stay in a closet some place and any acknowledgement of fear’s existence is seen by you as a negative attitude. And those of you out there responsible for this mentality neither recognize nor take ownership for the blockage in energy you create. Energy flows where the focus goes, and when a block forms, focus is gonna go directly to that blockage…and on the a**hole to blame for trying to keep it in place. And that focus won’t leave until the blockage is removed, in fact if anything, it will intensify. And when you try to shift the blame off of yourselves by telling the angry person how negative and lacking in personal responsibility they are…

If people reached out to one another, the way many of us who were suffering attacks tried to, showed compassion to one another, we’d all be safe even when overwhelmed. Suffering is not an opinion or theory, it is a situation with real life consequences that impacts every aspect of life…some of you refuse to even acknowledge that.

Do you really believe you have the right to block others to keep yourselves safe from moving through and confronting fear? Who really has the negative attitude here? The ones on this forum who keep claiming to have positive attitudes put all their focus and energy into ignoring the compassion and understanding that those suffering from attacks tried to give each other, but you put a lot of energy into trying to deny that a person can be overwhelmed to the point of breaking, bleeding, or dying…lord knows keeping your own hides safe took priority above all. Hey but there’s no negativity or fear on your part when you do that now, is there?  

Hey, you’re right, energy flows where the focus goes.




Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Sam on January 30, 2004, 18:30:25
I guess i'm jumping in the deep end here, being new and all, but the water seems lovely and warm :)

Before I go on and state my opinion, I'd just like to say that everything I write is just what I think, I'm more than willing to change my attitudes if someone can show me that they are, for want of a better word, inferior.  Also I make various assumptions about people in a conversation from what they have said or written and if I'm wrong, please correct me rather than let me go on thinking such and such is a whatever.

I know DK you said that its your last post, but you've gone and taken us (i think) in a new and interesting direction.  I think we should all be trying to help each other as much as we help ourselves.  Thats the only way any of us are going to learn anything new.

DK, my initial response to reading your latest post was to empathise with your situation, because it seems to me that you are frustrated that the majority of people don't understand the weight of your problems (past or present).  Like dealing with depression, the majority of people who have never experienced it say "stop being so negative, think positive" yet no matter how many affirmations, how many positive thoughts you come up with, there's always ten reasons why those positive thoughts should be ignored.  So while the person with depression is trying to cope through a situation literally beyond their control and so mentally destructive, the well meaning people around who are confused and say "but you should be happy" eventually end up being irritating unless you ignore them and try to understand that they ARE trying to help, but they honestly have nothing in their range of experience that is really of any use to you.  But considering the only way they'd REALLY understand your suffering is if they themselves had suffered like you, and I know I wouldn't wish my own suffering upon anyone else, I don't know about you.

Its easy to mistake anger for negativity, but imho thats a hallmark of a person who needs to learn a bit more about negativity.  Negativity is something that hurts people.  If anger hurts someone then maybe they need to look at their own self confidence issues, because anger is real, and it can be weilded positively, as I believe DK has been trying to do (anger was the emotion I sensed in your posts, correct me if I'm wrong).  Anyway if it is the case that you're angry about something then just say what it is so then we can all work through that issue rather than seeing the same old arguments over again.  You need to help us understand what it is you're trying to achieve here, so then we can help you in return.  

Other than that, everything everyone here's said makes sense in its own right, its just there's an undercurrent of unacknowledged emotion thats threatening to push people apart rather than reconcilliate and promote understanding.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: taom1234 on January 31, 2004, 05:42:40
On behalf of myself and my girlfriend, we would like to sincerely extend our sincerest gratitude to all of you here at Astral Pulse and your guides for so swiftly helping to cure her.  

Special thanks to Fuzziwig and your guide Jopeha for giving clarity and insight into her condition.......

and to Bluelight for teaching me  how to attempt to dissolve the thoughtform and for praying for her.......

and to Dark Knight for helping me know the gifted ones here.......
and to all of you unbeknownst to us for reading our pleas for  help and responding inkind with your prays.  

For the first time in 15 years the voices have communicated to her in a deeply kind and loving manner which has never happened to her before and simply can not be a co-incidence.  We just want everyone reading this post to know that there are many dedicated people in this forum who sincerely have prayed and offered to help us with their knowledge and understanding.

Within about 1-2 weeks after my first post here, a dramatic change for the better has risen within her and we are both deeply thankful to all of you for helping us in our time of need.  We don't know what else to say.  It is somewhat overwhelming that a turnaround has occured within such a short period of time.  For all of you who read this post and suffer from some form of ailment, we want you to know that the reality exists, if you are receptive and open, to have a turnaround take place within yourself for the better.  Thank you again. We will never forget this.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Fuzziwig on January 31, 2004, 06:59:52
Hello everyone
Its good to see so many constructive inputs. My guide and I would like to comment on some of the previous posts.
Qoutes in blue, and
my guide Jopeha in maroon

SpectralDragon you say:
This is a channelling I am putting out with my Guide and guardian, a pheonix called Kereen.
"fear leads to fear, this is the problem with this place at this particular moment, nothing more, nothing less. It is entirely possible to be possessed by a neg or demon, but the chances of this happening are "slim to none," and at most only about 20 or so people should be possessed in the world. Other psychic problems caused by people practicing magic and other arts are a different story altogether.
As far as lesser negs go they are too weak for the strong human soul to conquer. You should not fear these entities. They are made simply to survive."

What you speak of Kereen, is an understanding of demons as being creatures that cause pain in the form of possession or by haunting ppl. These demons are not the beings that exists in the world, but spirits who wish to gain passage to their home. This home being the place you would call heaven or simply the higher levels of vibration, on which spirits can thrive and be happy. A spirit seldom attacks a person for the mere fun of it. There is a reason behind the attacks, and these are signs of wanting to be helped. A cry out for help that people ignore, because they see themselves frightened and misunderstanding. No blame is put on these people for acting that way, but it is worth noting that the reason for coming to the stage of understanding, is by experiencing the will of the spirit. Understand that it basically wants help, allthough in a sometimes akward way. The spirits at this level dont think that they are doing wrong, but they want to interact in ways with others to sort out their problem. Not to say that their ways are 'rightious' or particularly constructive, but as they dont see a way out of their mess, they tend to do what they can and not allways with the best outcome. A spirit wants out of its trouble, out of its problem and by gaining the help from others it might just happen. The help provided is done in various ways, but by attacking the spirit you only make matters worse. If not for you, then for the spirit whos gained even more problems to deal with and acts as a result on this, in the same unhelpfull way as described before.

Kereen:
"readers must keep in mind that any subtle thing you hear from a guide, especially the differences in statement, makes a difference.
I have stated something very close to what edi's guide has said. But the fact is that though some changes are necessary to avoid future people becoming confused, this has not happened on the scale that is suggested. There is no need to say things that demean a place of learning that has done much people good. Everyone should consider the people who have come here for help as people who are still learning and who are scared and try to find out if they are simply just scared or it they genuinely need help.
As stated before, actual demons are rare, but cases of humans attacking humans are increasing. I see through the eyes of this one that many like to label such things as what you call "thought forms," when a good amount of them simply cannot be."

Kareen, i see that you have expressed a will to speak about demeaning a learning place. I would agree with you that it isnt a good idea to tear down a place that holds great knowledge which can benifit individuals. However should the great knowledge be in a state that could be misleading, then it would be a good idea to add corrections towards the aim of correcting this great knowledge to not being misleading. As this correction takes place, bringing people to understand the realness of the misunderstanding, so that they may learn from these mistakes and move towards a better way.

Dark Knight you say:
Why all the focus on negativity? I think that depends on your definition of negative. Why no displays of positive? I guess that depends on your definition of positive too.
The focus you refer to is because the positive is often overlooked, as the feeling of negative can feel overwhelming and uncomfortable. The feeling makes the individual uncomfortable, and therefore the focus lies on removing this uncomfortable feeling. When this happens there is created a focus on the feeling, and this is the main reason it may seem overfocused. The positive is not to be overlooked. When i say this, i mean that the positive is important in the lives of beings as well as spirits passed on. When the positive has taken place in an individual, it can be hard to express it, because it feels so good and why mention something when its not a problem. Im not saying there is a need to express the positive, but merely pointing out the reasons for this lack of focus on the positive.

Why acknowledge it, why not “be positive” at any cost? Because there are no substitutions for emotions. Same way you can’t replace any emotion with alcohol or drugs or food or shopping, you can’t avoid fear by “be positive” at any cost attitude. It’s a block…looks, walks, quacks, is a duck.
I totally agree with you that we shouldnt be positive at all costs. I think that we can develop in ways though to become more positive. Sometimes through good times and sometimes through bad times.

Oh but then comes the problem…like I said, you can’t reach out to help others without acknowledging fear is there…or that we can be overwhelmed by something. And a good chunk of you don’t wanna hear it. Suffering or any insinuation of being overpowered should stay in a closet some place and any acknowledgement of fear’s existence is seen by you as a negative attitude. And those of you out there responsible for this mentality neither recognize nor take ownership for the blockage in energy you create. Energy flows where the focus goes, and when a block forms, focus is gonna go directly to that blockage…and on the a**hole to blame for trying to keep it in place. And that focus won’t leave until the blockage is removed, in fact if anything, it will intensify. And when you try to shift the blame off of yourselves by telling the angry person how negative and lacking in personal responsibility they are…
I dont think that its a good thing to keep any pain or suffering in the closet. Offcourse each thing in its time. Meaning that its an excellent idea to open up towards others and solve problems together. Others that are open towards what is said and where comfort can be found. Its by help and sharing of experience that helps the individual through these tough problems, memories of pain and suffering.

Do you really believe you have the right to block others to keep yourselves safe from moving through and confronting fear? Who really has the negative attitude here? The ones on this forum who keep claiming to have positive attitudes put all their focus and energy into ignoring the compassion and understanding that those suffering from attacks tried to give each other, but you put a lot of energy into trying to deny that a person can be overwhelmed to the point of breaking, bleeding, or dying…lord knows keeping your own hides safe took priority above all. Hey but there’s no negativity or fear on your part when you do that now, is there?
What i see is people trying to help each other, by sharing ideas, advice and experiences. I dont see any experiences being blocked by others (give me a qoute where you think it happens, if you can point it out, so we can learn from this too). Experiences are put here and people are free to comment on those, as it should be. I have given you response on some of the things you have previously written as i do now, to give you some input that you might find usefull. I do this in the interest of helping, trying to understand and yes learn something too.

As i write this post i see that taom1234 has posted on this thread. My guide and I are very pleased that the advice we gave in the previous post has helped your girlfriend taom1234. As you mentioned, the receptiveness and being open can help in making a turnaround for the better. Infact the help that was provided could never have worked without the individual being receptive and open towards being helped in this illness. By exposing this thoughtform to information, it could no longer serve the purpose of being a hinder for the person. Taom1234 i wish your girlfriend the best, and i hope that the advice by my guide and I combined with you and your girlfriends experience, can give recovery to others with similar illnesses too.

Light and Compassion
Fuzziwig


-Edited to correct a spelling error and refer to the advice


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on January 31, 2004, 08:32:25
I am not making this a habit! [}:)]

quote:
I dont see any experiences being blocked by others (give me a qoute where you think it happens, if you can point it out, so we can learn from this too).


quote:
I take it that you refer yourself as "bleeding to death", and if that is the case, im so sorry to hear that.


Who do you think I was referring to when I said that, Fuzzy?

Do I need to explain this in detail, are you that far behind? 3Ders have mastered this lesson to the point of overkill.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: James S on January 31, 2004, 09:23:04
Ok, I've been biting my lip for long enough time to say something I've felt to say for a while. I’m tired of tiptoeing around certain peoples feelings so if I offend anyone here, well…get over it!

quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight
......If people reached out to one another, the way many of us who were suffering attacks tried to, showed compassion to one another, we’d all be safe even when overwhelmed. Suffering is not an opinion or theory, it is a situation with real life consequences that impacts every aspect of life…some of you refuse to even acknowledge that.

Do you really believe you have the right to block others to keep yourselves safe from moving through and confronting fear? Who really has the negative attitude here? The ones on this forum who keep claiming to have positive attitudes put all their focus and energy into ignoring the compassion and understanding that those suffering from attacks tried to give each other, but you put a lot of energy into trying to deny that a person can be overwhelmed to the point of breaking, bleeding, or dying…lord knows keeping your own hides safe took priority above all. Hey but there’s no negativity or fear on your part when you do that now, is there?  

Hey, you’re right, energy flows where the focus goes.



Ok Dark, you’ve said you’re leaving enough times now to make me believe that you’ll end up reading this anyway, so I doubt I’ll be saying this to thin air.

Exactly where do you come off making statements like this? If people reached out….the way many of us who were suffering attacks tried to…
How many people have reached out to help you in earnest and have ended up copping a stream of criticism from you? How many people on this site have tried to be friends with you only to end up verbally slapped across the face because they didn’t see things the way you wanted them to? You slammed the door on Mayatnik and Karek, why? Was it because they told you something you didn’t want to hear, or was it because he chose not to validate your current situation for you? So many people here have raised their voices to let you know that they wish you well, and what’s your reply? Comments like this one above, and others where yo respond to people like they're idiots. Well there’s gratitude for you!

So here you go again criticizing. What gives you the right to criticize anyone here?
Woe betide any of us who haven’t suffered the way you have, because clearly we know nothing at all! The members who have suffered from untold years of abuse as children, who have managed to make a good and happy life for themselves despite the fact their parents are STILL trying to abuse them. The people who have suffered from years of depression and have come within seconds of taking their own lives. People who have faced their fears, faced their challenges and come out on top, come away with a POSITIVE attitude, they obviously know nothing of what it’s really like to suffer! Well what a bugger free will is, especially if people choose to use that free will to make something positive of their lives in spite of their situations.

You have no right to judge anyone here on what level of compassion they might have for others! You have no idea of what these people might have been through, what they might have witnessed, yet you sit in condemnation of members of this site because, in my opinion, they have failed to help take your problems away from you. And you say people here have problems with denial? There’s an irony!

The number of times I have seen you attack others because you think they are doing harm to someone, or PM’d moderators to tell them to stop someone from attacking you….. THERE WERE NO ATTACKS! There was only your paranoia.

I am no psychiatrist. I do not have the answers to your problems, nor did I ever try to make you believe I did. The people of this forum are not psychiatrists either (well at least I don’t know of any here). It’s only out of their COMPASSION that they’ve tried to offer their opinions to you as a way of helping. So what if they don’t understand your situation. At least they’ve cared enough to offer an opinion THEY think might be helpful because its something that has worked for THEM.

Ok, that’s enough for now. Apologies to the other members for this outburst but I can take in only so much hypocracy. Oh, and before I get any accusations of not being the “love and light” spiritual person they though I should be, that’s someone I’ve never pretended to be.

On a lighter note, spirituality requires common sense and practicality. These are traits that I happily believe that Edi and his guide Perena seem to have plenty of.

Kind regards,
James.

P.S. Taome1234, thank you for this good news that you've brought to this topic. It's wonderful that you're girlfriend has done so well.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Mick on January 31, 2004, 14:20:23
quote:
Originally posted by Tayesin


Hi All,
Each Being had a unique feeling to them, making it easy to read them and their intentions.  At no time were any of these my projections as I was there without concepts of my own, simply being what I am and seeing what is.   And so I have a little difficulty with some of what is portrayed here, as it makes no allowances for the existance and intentions of other beings in this Universe.
 

This is what struck me as being significant and I have made some similar comments re. this recently.
The focus looks to be directed totally inwards towards self with no respect or regard for the rest of the universe whatever it may contain. My view also is that both aspects need to be considered, in the case of self it is complex and given the chance will create an inner reality full of whatever but there will still be the outer reality with which there is likely to be a continuing interaction especially if ignored.
For me a raises question as to why some guides or whatever follow the single personal solution, those that I speak with do not but obviously in this context that is just another opinion. One thought is that in some circumstances this is the safest place for a novice to be and the guides or whatever feel this is the best guidance they can give under the circumstances especially if they are not in a position to manage the specific environs better.
On the other hand being conspiratorial it is an attempt to box up humans in their own space :)

 
quote:

The fear approach is one in which the experiencer will attempt to attack the Being that is seen to be 'negative' to them, or to run away and hide from it, or many other possibilities that are regularly read in this section.   Ultimately, there is only one truly effective


I do think that the fear aspect is overplayed, yes as you say it can result in actions that are maybe not ideal but in my opinion all emaotions create spaces which can be utilised by a whole range of denizens for a variety of reasons, it is all part of the flora and fauna. For someone dragged into this arena all aspects need tending to not just one aspect.

 
quote:

DO not allow anyone to disempower you by getting you to believe that this is not the case, for YOU are not a little soul in need of so much assistance and help from outsiders,  YOU are a Great Spirit in you own right, very capable of all that you chose to experience here.  IN fact, all that you NEED to do is to remember what you are and the way will be very clear.


Agreed. Humility is one thing, self denial of self is another and not I believe conducive to growth.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: taom1234 on January 31, 2004, 16:26:54
Thank you James S and Fuzziwig[:)]  When we made the post we forgot to mention Edi and Perina who started this thread.  Thanks to you both. This forum has so many positives.  My donation will be comming soon. I hope enough people support this forum to keep it alive. There isn't another one around like this one.  As I read more threads I learn more and more and it gives me confidence in knowing that all of us have the knowledge within to break all the self imposed boudaries that we constantly impose upon ourselves.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: shedt on February 02, 2004, 00:06:28
quote:
Originally posted by James S

The people who have suffered from years of depression and have come within seconds of taking their own lives. People who have faced their fears, faced their challenges and come out on top, come away with a POSITIVE attitude, they obviously know nothing of what it’s really like to suffer!


for me, i used to be really depressed, sad, and even some times suicidal. But in the end, nothing, no neg, no random negative thought, could take away one thing from me;

Hope


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: shedt on February 02, 2004, 00:11:04
quote:
Originally posted by taom1234

Thank you James S and Fuzziwig[:)].....As I read more threads I learn more and more and it gives me confidence in knowing that all of us have the knowledge within to break all the self imposed boudaries that we constantly impose upon ourselves.



yes this is great. I'm going to try and focus more on looking inside myself and fixing and problems that i have that way.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 02, 2004, 10:24:55
Well, kereen wanted to say more but other members have pretty much hit the nail on the head already. I would like to add one thing though.

In my opinion, you cannot go judging other's without first trying to take a look at what they have been through and what they are going through. I see many examples in this thread alone. I know James hit on this a bit but I don't think he explained it enough.

In order to truly function as a help to other's you must be empathic to what they have gone through at least to a certain extent, those that are not like James and Dark Knight as an example tend to only make matters worse between themselves and tend to bring out much negativity. If you cannot feel an empathic response to someone then you probably cannot help them.

EDIT: I would also like to add that while I don't completely agree with edi and his guide on the matter that the only one who can harm you is yourself I do agree on this: some of the philosophy here needs to be changed.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 02, 2004, 11:18:46
No SD, no philosophy here needs to change.

You have to realize how DK avoids her complicity in her own situation.

What she has been through does not free her from her own complicity.   For whatever reason she was originally 'attacked', Dk is denying her complicity in her own situation, when it is on display for everyone to see in every one of her posts.   That is the simple truth.

More than anything, she needs to forgive herself, and move through it.

I have empathy for DK, I am sorrowful with her in her pain - but I also can see the choices she makes.  I know I am powerless to help her if she cannot see her own negativity.

Yes, we have the choice to expend all our energy to help her avoid facing her own complicity, just as she has the choice to avoid facing her own complicity.

James may be guilty of expressing his view with some frustration and anger - which he freely owns up to - but his points still stand.   DK generates plenty of negativity.

Perhaps we are being cruel, it seems DK can not help herself.  I do not know what else to do.



Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Sam on February 02, 2004, 13:56:21
quote:
Perhaps we are being cruel, it seems DK can not help herself. I do not know what else to do.


I've seen (and experienced) time and time again that people trying to force knowledge on someone who isn't ready or prepared to confront the knowledge simply end up alienating that someone.  That someone feels that they aren't wanted and end up leaving the company of the people who were trying to force their help upon the person.  The end result being of course that the person ends up not benifiting from any of the experience that the others may have to offer.

This issue some people have with dark knight is a personal one which needs to be worked through in order to reach an understanding of some sort.  Trying to force her to see your outlook won't work, and neither will her trying to force you.  The best solution is to try and work down to the real issue which is bothering people and be honest about feelings.  Instead of saying "dark knight is an insulting person" which is an attack on her and an insult to her (it doesn't matter if she said something provocative first or not), it's better to say "it makes me angry when you suggest that ...  why would you say such a thing?" which then puts the ball in her park and she gets a chance to explain herself.  Sorry to use you as an example DK but people here seem to be fanning the flames rather than resolving the situation.  I don't mean that people do it intentionally, but it happens nontheless.

Let me say this: I don't think DK leaving would be a good resolution to the situation because she has experienced many things which could be shared with others if needed, she is an asset, but unless this conflict can be totally and openly discussed (compromises need to be made by all parties) she's just gonna up and leave us.  Some of you might say yay wahoo ding dong the grump is gone no more negative energy to drag us down but I would thing damn she's probably not gonna fare so well without a supportive community that can help her face the darkness and come through it a stronger person.



To sum things up from my perspective, people are who they are, and nobody has the power to suddenly change them, and if people try then they find they push other people away rather than creating any change.  You can't force these things.  However just because people are different doesn't mean the differences can't be discussed openly in a way which will benifit all sides of the discussion.  Venting frustration leads to an imbalanced discussion because sure you feel better having done it, but the other person feels offended.  If on the other hand you leave someone with an avenue to respond to your criticism or comment it gives them a chance to express their feelings on the matter.  This applys to everyone here and sure you might be thinking "you're standing there on your big butt soapbox telling us all how to talk to each other, where do you get off" but it's just another opinion, but I think its an important one because there is a disturbing level of intolerance to other peoples views here and it seems to be hampering any real change in everyones understanding of each other.  

Maybe we're all too set in our ways.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 02, 2004, 14:48:15
Sam,

Most of what you say is quite true.  Yes, many would not object to DK leaving this forum.  Yes, trying to force something on someone is usually a bad idea.  Yes, doing so often results in the terminal option for those who would most benefit from an exchange.  Yes, I agree DK could bring a lot to this forum.

The best solution is to try and work down to the real issue which is bothering people and be honest about feelings.

That is what I have been doing.

A person once asked a Tibetan Buddhist monk what he would do if a robber tried to rob him.  Would his philosophy of compassion interfere with him defending himself?  The monk replied, "I would compassionately smack him with my umbrella."

The difference that I see here, as I shall demonstrate shortly, is that DK posts out of selfishness, while I am 'smacking compassionately' against her stubborn notion that everyone else is to blame for her situation.

DK has already moved through her explanations, as have we.  The fundamental issue is here, as taken from James' post;

 
quote:
How many people have reached out to help you in earnest and have ended up copping a stream of criticism from you? How many people on this site have tried to be friends with you only to end up verbally slapped across the face because they didn’t see things the way you wanted them to?


In other words, DK is stuck.  DK does not see her complicity in her own situation.  In fact, DK seems to blame others for her situation - she projects her responsibility onto others.

Yes, I am involving myself here, but I am not responsible for DK's choices, no matter what you or she might say.  She is.  Even when she projects her power over herself onto me or anyone else, that is still her decision.  That is the fundamental issue which finds so much objection.

As far as 'Ding-dong, the witch is dead' I assure you that is all your own projection, at least as far as I'm concerned.  For my part, I have interacted with and made peace with far more negative people on the 'net than DK, of my own choice - just like here.

And as long as DK comes back here, fully knowing the circumstances, I shall do my part, being myself.

It's the least I can do.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Nay on February 02, 2004, 15:01:11
Guess I can't leave James out on that limb by himself *scoots next to him*
 
quote:
This issue some people have with dark knight is a personal one which needs to be worked through in order to reach an understanding of some sort. Trying to force her to see your outlook won't work, and neither will her trying to force you. The best solution is to try and work down to the real issue which is bothering people and be honest about feelings. Instead of saying "dark knight is an insulting person" which is an attack on her and an insult to her (it doesn't matter if she said something provocative first or not), it's better to say "it makes me angry when you suggest that ... why would you say such a thing?" which then puts the ball in her park and she gets a chance to explain herself. Sorry to use you as an example DK but people here seem to be fanning the flames rather than resolving the situation. I don't mean that people do it intentionally, but it happens nontheless.
I agree with what James said and how he said it.  James has spend time chatting with DK and had/has much empathy for her.  I don't think I have seen people force any outlook on her...SHE asked for help, heck she has asked for it over, over and over again. Why does she keep asking over and over?..eh, because she hasn't gotten the answer that suits her yet and my, doesn't if feel good to have all these people sympathic and giving their attention???

I have been honest with her on were I stand. (if you haven't noticed yet, I tend to be what some might call brutality honest..I don't believe in mincing words..tis a waste of time)  And for James to say she is a insulting person, was him BEING honest..I don't know what posts you have been reading..but she IS insulting, to a point that I can feel her anger, and get visions of this woman sitting in her chair, teeth bared, cussing and hitting the keys so hard, the board might be on its last leg.  I care if someone says something provacative first!  Well...every case is different but in this case, she needs to be called on her actions.  How do we not know that one of the problems is, people have coddled her way to much?  Which I can understand..she is scary when she gets going on one of those attack  of hers.  I have seen her subtly threaten people with a mystery attack...(I was a recipent of one of them) of course I reacted with a hardy laugh at it, so she does have some humor there, albeit dark..no pun intended..[:P]

My opinion..there is nothing anyone else can do for her.  I also think some are not helping by feeding the, dare I say....fantasy.

Ahhhh..something just popped into my head, perhaps these people whom are feeding the fantasy are getting somewhat of a pay off themselves?  I think one might feel pretty mighty if they could fix DK's problem.  For that to happen they must throw themselves head first into the problem that she feels she is experiencing, believe and except what she says to be fact. (because if they don't she will just shut them out)  This just could turn out to be a vicious cycle.  A never ending battle, because all egos are actually getting what they want...hmmmmmmm, very interesting indeed.

Nay.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Sam on February 02, 2004, 15:34:46
Nothing wrong with honesty, especially when brutality is involved:)

I never set out to say any of your intentions in what you were saying weren't compassionate or well meaning, and it is a shame that DK seems (from what you say) to be unable to integrate your experience into hers and responds with frustration and anger.

Everyone builds up their personal view of the world from only what they experience plus their imagination which fills in the gaps.  The closer one person's experiences in life to anothers the better they can relate to one another.  It seems DK's had some pretty far out experiences which may have pushed her perception a long way from the average, and she most likely feels that nobody understands where she is at, hence the frustration when yet another person offers their helpful advice (probably also due to the amount of conflicting ideas in spirituality, its like being a kid in a sweet shop).  This by no means is meant to imply that we should let her live in a fantasy world where we pretend that everything she does is perfectly normal, because of course this is pointless and doesn't help anyone.  And its already been shown that "slapping her in the face" with your beliefs isn't really helping, because she isn't a mugger, she's a person who's unsure about the world and desperately seeks to understand herself and others, but no one is listening to her.  That's all made up by me but the fact of the matter is you think she's selfish and insulting, and she may perhaps behave in that way, but the reason behind it, the actual cause of the behavior, the situation she is in, is what needs to be understood and discussed to help reach a comfortable co-existence within the group.  You can't judge a person on behavior alone and simply "feeling" for someone isn't enough if you truly want to help them.  You have to understand them as well.  Like a mechanic understands a car.  You might have a "feeling" that the engine's busted but the mechanic knows its the third woogey donga from the left thats out of alignment.

Anyway I hope DK gets better and I'd rather not have any conflict with you fine people, who after all have done the best you possibly can (as we all do).


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 02, 2004, 16:04:36
Again you make some very good points Sam.  Again I feel I must explain myself.

It was never my intention to 'slap her in the face with my beliefs', or to imply that she was a mugger.  My point was a demonstration that compassion need not preclude action.

Rather, it was my hope to explain that by projecting her power onto others she was only disempowering herself, and that by showing her the mechanism of her own self-disempowerment she might find relief.

I believe the 'reason behind it' is that she wants to feel empowered, loved, and even valued.   That's an assumption I am willing to take responsibility for, but must my discernment of her actions which I see thwart these natural urges be labeled a judgement?  

No, I am sure I do not understand DK to the level you imply I should - but I do understand empowerment and responsibility.   What advice do you give, other than not to do what we are doing?

What would be your psychic defense Sam?  What would be your cure?


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Nay on February 02, 2004, 16:14:49
Nothing wrong with honesty, especially when brutality is involved:)

Heheheheh..oops, I mean brutally..[;)]  Perhaps I shouldn't have said brutally to start with, cause I really am a nice person and tend to get along with most people.  Some might find it brutal though...

Let me give an example, (not a true story..hehe)

Lady on the street wearing a hat with fruit on it, comes up to me and says, "how do you like my hat,do I look good"? In my opinion, no one should wear fruit on their head...I answer, "I don't care for it and it doesn't do a thing for you".  "Why?" she asks.  "Because you shouldn't wear fruit on your head, go make a salad".  She says hmmph...and stomps off....Now she asked didn't she? I was honest or was I brutally honest?  Should I have told her that she looked great, because she thought she looked great?

Guess I am off topic, but eh...I am wondering if maybe I should stop being so honest with my opinions....Naaaaaaaah...not gonna happen.[:D]

Sam, it sounds like you might should have a go with DK..you might be able to break thru the wall...I just don't have the temperment for it I guess.

Nay


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 02, 2004, 22:31:56
Gee, you guys sure like to point fingers when somone is attacking, but it looks like you attack us who have not even done anything wrong without a problem or thought. I am not talking about DK either. You are attacking the rest of us who help DK. You guys say you are being empathic, but I am not seeing any empathy at all. It's true she has some inner demons to deal with, but you are not showing empathy towards how she might feel.

If EITHER side is to get anywhere we need to show some common sense and respect. I don't want to personally attack you guys but it is getting to the point where both sides are doing NOTHING but attacking the other. I am seeing no leeway on either side. Empathy requires attention to other's feelings.

Sorry for yelling at every single member in this thread, with the exception of Edi and Sam who have not tried to attack anyone here I am seeing a flaming war about to go on.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: shedt on February 02, 2004, 22:56:10
I'm confused. Who are they attacking ? I don't see anything specific.

What is a "attack" ?



Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 02, 2004, 23:16:20
quote:
Originally posted by shedt

I'm confused. Who are they attacking ? I don't see anything specific.

What is a "attack" ?



It's very subtle.....just trying to avoid it breaking out in the open [;)]

By saying that Dark Knights problems are a "fantasy" they are saying that everyone who helped her and that Dark Knight herself are dillusional. I take personall offense to this and quite frankly was expecting better from moderators.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Nay on February 02, 2004, 23:52:46
Hahahahahaha..dang SD, just say it for goodness sakes, I can handle it.[:D]

If what I said makes you feel defensive, then perhaps I was more on the mark than I thought...eh?  

I am never subtle..HEHEHEHE..and it HAS broken out in the open, several posts ago..

And if you were under the delusion that us Mod's were more than mere human, you are mistaken...well..atleast I am a mere human, with human feelings, thoughts and opinions.  I am allowed my opinions just like everyone else on these wonderful forums.  It doesn't mean I am right, but just my opinion..

You say that you take personal offense to what I have said..yet you have not giving me any facts on why I am wrong....why is that?

Nay.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: James S on February 03, 2004, 00:32:38
Spectral,

Nobody is trying to start a flame war here, least of all the moderators. The trouble I see here is that when people start empathising, or more appropriately here, sympathising with someone to the point where they have to walk on egshells around them for fear of upsetting them, that's not doing anyone any favours at all! Keep going down that path and you end up with an "Emperor's new clothes" situation.

This is the point Nay is trying to put across. Sometimes you have to be honest, not accusational, not attacking, but honest. Holding up a mirror so the person can see what they've become.

You can "empathise" only so much with someone who is openly critical and hostile before you need to say "sit down, shut up and LISTEN." Such words often come from a position of love and genuine caring. NOT saying anything, NOT speaking honestly is more often a sign of being uncaring.

Regards,
James.





Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 03, 2004, 01:31:16
quote:
Originally posted by Nay

Hahahahahaha..dang SD, just say it for goodness sakes, I can handle it.[:D]

If what I said makes you feel defensive, then perhaps I was more on the mark than I thought...eh?  

I am never subtle..HEHEHEHE..and it HAS broken out in the open, several posts ago..

And if you were under the delusion that us Mod's were more than mere human, you are mistaken...well..atleast I am a mere human, with human feelings, thoughts and opinions.  I am allowed my opinions just like everyone else on these wonderful forums.  It doesn't mean I am right, but just my opinion..

You say that you take personal offense to what I have said..yet you have not giving me any facts on why I am wrong....why is that?

Nay.



Nay and James, I know what it is to be a moderator of a site and an administrator. I know you are human.

From what I am seeing her posts are not that bad, I have looked at a lot and quite frankly I am sick of this new age behavior.

Nay, what you are saying does not make me feel defensive because I don't need to defend what I know is correct, but I do have to set the story straight because what you are doing is not being tactile, which causes me to believe you are simply attacking for the fun of it.

I think this should continue on the PM channels


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: James S on February 03, 2004, 01:49:16
I dunno Spectral,

Perhaps we are better off speaking of this here. We all have enough common sense and consideration to stop this from turning into a personal mud-slinging match, and I do feel that what we're discussing here really does go to the core of Edi's topic.

I'm certainly not hanging on to any anger or resentment. What I speak of simply comes out of my experiences and perspectives

Kind regards,
James.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 03, 2004, 01:54:51
quote:
Originally posted by James S

I dunno Spectral,

Perhaps we are better off speaking of this here. We all have enough common sense and consideration to stop this from turning into a personal mud-slinging match, and I do feel that what we're discussing here really does go to the core of Edi's topic.

I'm certainly not hanging on to any anger or resentment. What I speak of simply comes out of my experiences and perspectives

Kind regards,
James.



just trying to avoid spamming the thread. I am also talking from experience and perspective, and I also believe a problem is arising similair to what Tayasin was talking about. We could be talking about the same thing just in relative terms.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 03, 2004, 01:59:16
I agree James, the discussion has turned to Dk's case because the same issues are at the very heart of the PSD debate.

SD, if you really want to 'straighten us out' you need to make a CASE, not merely make defensive accusations resting on the observation that we disagree with you as being reason enough we are in the wrong - and if you feel you don't need to 'defend what you know is correct' then I don't know why you are here.

Step up SD, and discuss this like the mature person you claim to be.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Nay on February 03, 2004, 02:10:42
I think that as long as we can be adults and truly try and communicate, there is no need to take this to a private forum...I am sure people would like to hear what transforms.

 
quote:
Nay, what you are saying does not make me feel defensive because I don't need to defend what I know is correct, but I do have to set the story straight because what you are doing is not being tactile, which causes me to believe you are simply attacking for the fun of it.
not being tactile, meaning....I am not being able to touch or be felt?  I have been touched and feel strongly, not in the direction you would like, but strongly non the less

I will admit though, sometimes the verbal sword play is entertaining and I admire your sticking up for someone whom will not contribute, but leaves you to "pick up the pieces"

How does it make you feel that you are defending a cause, that has no cause?

*Darth Vador voice* come...to the dark side, SpectralDragon...come...[:P] sorry, once again, my humor knows no bounds...   How bout we shake hands, and call it a draw?  

Nay.....[;)]

wow...didn't see those two posts from, James and kiauma...while I was posting...can you say..TYPE FASTER????



Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 03, 2004, 03:00:24
Nay, I understand what you are saying about "picking up the pieces," But I had actually literally told her this place is not good for her because of the negativity being thrown at her.

I would also like to add that most of you are acting like her case has not gone anywhere, IT HAS. The negative beings that are thrown at her are being blocked off. She has her own inner demons to deal with right now and should not have to worry about people who are telling her everything is in her head. Point in case: this case is getting closed.
quote:
My opinion..there is nothing anyone else can do for her. I also think some are not helping by feeding the, dare I say....fantasy.



I believe you are implying that she is either a fraud or she is dealing with thought forms. I have projected for a long time and have helped people like this for a long time. I know what a thought form is, and I had dealt with inner demon's brought about by my own ego right when I was starting to project. I did not know they were inner demons at the time, but I am now more experienced and know the difference between an inner demon and a spirit. I also know when someone is a fraud, and having helped Dark knight for many months now I would know if she was trying to trick me.

Back to edi's subject for a sec.
Typical new age thinking is spirit=love, goodness, and fluffy bunnies (sorry my humor is wierd too.) Therefore, according to this view, "evil spirits" don't exist.  I am seeing a lot of this in this thread, that all spirits external in the astral plane are all good. What I have noticed is that many new agers come from orthodox christian backgrounds. The idea that god is a being that makes all things for a good purpose, and that trying to astral project or do serious meditation will cause you to be yoked with evil demons. A friend of mine for example has avoided astral projection for a long time because he was afraid that it was demonic or he would get involved with demons. They still think that way when going into new age thinking. In order to deal with the nagging doubt that they might be getting involved with demons, they just say that demons and negative psychic forces do not exist. This is not the case. Evil exists because of life's will to exist, and becuase we chose to exist we are not perfect.

Another thing I am seeing relavent to this discussion is that people like to blame things on the person being attacked. If you think of a kid attracting a bully at a playground then normally what you would do is stop the bully and then try to take of the kid's inner self so he can become balanced and not attract negativity. What I am seeing are people preaching before they take care of the bully or simply not taking care of the bully at all. The kid cannot help himself if he is in the middle of the attack. He cannot become balanced because he has to worry about his own survival first. I am seeing pictures of you guys going up to Dark Knight right when she is being attacked and saying "you must embrace the fluffy bunies and become happy, you should have no negativity so the bully will not be attracted to you." and DK is saying "will you shut up and friggin HELP ME." The bully can be seen as an evil spirit as well.

Dark Knights problem with you guys is the help she got was the above situation. You all gave her advice and told her about the "fluffy bunnies" but you didn't help her with the bully at all, with the exception of Tay, Myself, and Ender.

quote:
*Darth Vador voice* come...to the dark side, SpectralDragon...come... sorry, once again, my humor knows no bounds... How bout we shake hands, and call it a draw?

Nay.....


I have a problem giving up, I am a dragon you know[;)] Too much honor involved.

quote:
You can "empathise" only so much with someone who is openly critical and hostile before you need to say "sit down, shut up and LISTEN." Such words often come from a position of love and genuine caring. NOT saying anything, NOT speaking honestly is more often a sign of being uncaring.



I completely agree with this, and yes I have said "sit down and shut up" to the people I have helped before, but I don't have to do this with DK on the level I have to with most.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 03, 2004, 09:17:11
quote:
“I dont see any experiences being blocked by others (give me a qoute where you think it happens, if you can point it out, so we can learn from this too). Experiences are put here and people are free to comment on those, as it should be. I have given you response on some of the things you have previously written as i do now, to give you some input that you might find usefull. I do this in the interest of helping, trying to understand and yes learn something too.”

All right then, we’ll give it a try…problem is, Fuzzy, the blocks that happen here aren’t singular quotes they are entire contexts. And that is how I am going to describe them.

People under attack have a hard time making life work and have to compromise a tremendous amount of themselves just to make it through the basics of life,…have to fight sometimes to get the energy to get up and in the morning. Then on top of all that, they have to endure the abuse of people wanting to force fit their experiences onto theirs. When you tell them their ideas aren’t working, you’re told no, you’re just being irresponsible, or just being negative, why don’t you put in any effort…as if making life work as best they can wasn’t an effort. Your experiences are the end all, so it should work, and you deliberately put people who are under attack on the defensive to force it to be true. You forcibly challenge them to prove your wrong. The people suffering from psychic/supernatural attack are trying to cope with everyday life survival, they need serious help, not games…investing energy into something that does not work is just more energy depletion. It’s called honoring and respecting the self (how that is negative I have no idea). People who are under attack are expected to prove why they should have their needs respected…how in the hell do you prove that, especially when the consequences are flat out rejected as happening in reality.    

Well, forcing individuals to defend themselves on why they should have their experiences and needs respected works as intended…shuts up people suffering attacks real well…can’t move through something or take responsibility without acknowledging it exists. No focus, energy stops flowing, blocks form. Since you can’t defend yourself, you end up playing a game that doesn’t work which causes you to lose more energy (and that is what I call being positive for the hell of being positive). That is what I call positive for the hell of being positive. Tends to tinkle you off after a while (That is the point, God gave us the power to become angry as a pain receptor to warn us when our value is being diminished…that isn’t a negative thing).

When we do protest we get, “Why are you getting upset, it’s just an opinion, just a theory.” If it is just an opinion, just a theory, why are do you need to drive home the idea that individuals under attack aren’t positive enough, are lazy, and irresponsible. You don’t accept the idea that you can be overwhelmed, why? What’s the motivation? You’re more than willing to put forward the intent of giving the idea, but you don’t want any of the consequences that go along with it (noticed that’s a theme in a lot of these threads, lot’s of mention of the initial intent, no follow through). You don’t even acknowledge the consequences exist…you take all the benefits and none of the responsibility. Your ego does all the work and you take all the credit.

This kind of behavior takes its toll after time…Fuzzy, Sam, during the Christmas Holiday I exchanged emails with a former member of this site who was on the verge of suicide. She couldn’t do it anymore, couldn’t cope with the attacks and try to engage the forced defensiveness of the love and light loonies. That is the consequence this behavior creates. Hey when you convince people they have to prove they need their experiences respected, and that person can’t, the logic becomes “I don’t deserve respect.” I showed her something, I won’t say what. She wrote back saying that I had confirmed something she had been suspecting and it made her feel better. I gave the suggestion, she pulled herself up (she deserves the credit not me, I only validated something she had already thought of).

I keep hearing the “We got over abuse” line over and over. Yes, in answer to James’ question, that was a positive thing, in it’s OWN place and period. What is wrong is using it as the insertion point for every other experience their after. Like saying, “I gave to the poor so now I can rob a bank and use my previous experience as a cover and claim credit.” You cannot use a past experience as a substitute for dealing with the present. The positive of overcoming abuse is no more a substitute than alcohol, drugs, food, or shopping. You deal with a situation in the present on it’s own individual merits and yours. You not only drag it into the present you use it as a club to beat people to death with. Your “positive experience” is not more valuable than the person you are alledgedly trying to help, or the things you have to destroy inside that person to make it so.

And don’t give me this crap about helping or having compassion for people…there is a big difference between the abusive situations you were in and the situation a person under psychic/supernatural attack is in. When you were being abused, it was your hide on the line if you didn’t overcome it. You had to do everything required of you to get over it. But when people being attacked ask you for the same help and the same requirements are demanded, you give as much as you want to, and whine when more is asked of you. Who’s hide are you thinking about? And do you really need a damn shrink to explain to you that people don’t have to defend themselves to have their needs respected? Is that what it’s come down to, we need shrinks to explain to us how to treat people? That is beyond pathetic.

What right do I have to criticize…because human value was created by God and given to all of us. It doesn’t belong to any one person, and anyone, ANYONE has the right to criticize, (and I will especially do it when I read emails from the one girl who was near suicide, and for the most insensitive of reasons). A single person doesn’t need to be special alone, unto themselves, to do it,…God creating it made it special in all of us. You can’t declare a special title requirement or think you need one without denying the Holy Creation in yourself…and that is the greatest sin of them all.

Oh course I gotta wonder about people who would think being attacked makes them special, especially when they tell me they were abused and tortured. I wonder how special you were to be singled out by your abuser for torture if that is the case. What a lovely fantasy that is.

One more thing…I am getting ticked at the claims of credit by certain individuals who claim “they were helping me so much.” The only people who can claim credit for helping me are Tayesin, Spectral Dragon, Enderwiggin, and Sunnyblue. Spectral in particular pulled quite a few entities out of me at his personal expense and expended energy to keep my energy from being ganged up on so I could grow, and I did. I hear a lot of credit being assumed for things I did and overcame myself…and I’ve got an MSN message dating 18Dec2003 for proof on quite a few things. Nah, won’t post it yet. That’s be like turning a comedy into a tragedy.

And if you’re wondering why YOU aren’t falling under the boundary of respect…your boundaries are intact and you are maintaining other boundaries by forcing people weaker than you to defend their need for respect (which they can’t). Causing harm to others does not earn you respect, and it damn well isn’t owed to you. Irresponsible moral cowards the whole lot of you.

 
quote:
Even when she projects her power over herself onto me or anyone else, that is still her decision.
(oh but I gotta love how much power I alledgedly have over others…you harp and sing about how you have gotten over your abuses and challenges, but I have the power to cancel all that out?)

I’ll say it again, I may not be perfect, but I am doing fantastic. So, Fuzzy, I’m gonna ask again, because Lords knows I can’t assume anything from people. Being that I’m fine, who do you think I was talking about in this post? Who do you think is bleeding to death?

 








Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: James S on February 03, 2004, 09:23:50
Spectral,
I will make what I hope will be my last comments on the subject of Dark Knight. I would also like to make an observation on some of your last comments which I feel to be more pertinent to this topic.

quote:
Typical new age thinking is spirit=love, goodness, and fluffy bunnies (sorry my humor is wierd too.) Therefore, according to this view, "evil spirits" don't exist. I am seeing a lot of this in this thread, that all spirits external in the astral plane are all good. What I have noticed is that many new agers come from orthodox christian backgrounds. The idea that god is a being that makes all things for a good purpose, and that trying to astral project or do serious meditation will cause you to be yoked with evil demons. A friend of mine for example has avoided astral projection for a long time because he was afraid that it was demonic or he would get involved with demons. They still think that way when going into new age thinking. In order to deal with the nagging doubt that they might be getting involved with demons, they just say that demons and negative psychic forces do not exist. This is not the case. Evil exists because of life's will to exist, and becuase we chose to exist we are not perfect.

 
Forgive me if I end up bringing up a lot of Robert Bruce’s writings here, but the fact is I, and my own experiences, agree very much with what he’s said. I do prefer to speak purely from personal experience where I can, and pretty much keep my mouth closed and just listen where I can’t, but he’s provided so much good info that relate to these cases.
 
RB makes a few references to the fluffy bunnies approach where people find themselves in the lower astral regions. Just like happy thoughts helped make Peter Pan fly, it will also help the traveller lift themselves out of the dark regions. Same is true for those who have suffered persecution or depression. The happy thoughts, the fluffy bunnies aren’t just psychology, such happiness does produce chemicals in the body, like dopamine, that really are beneficial to us both physically and mentally. So I don’t think that fluffy bunnies is just a new age avoidance mechanism, its something that has a measurable effect.
 
 I agree however, the idea that there are no ‘evil’ spirits (within reason to the definition of evil, which can be a very long winded subject on its own, so how about we just go with Bad Spirits) is completely ludicrous. Again, RB provided a good definition of the lower astral realms as being the places where the negativity of the human race (and any other race for that matter) is given form. Yes there is a hell, and we made it! Those that fear evil like this should simply not project as their preconceptions will become realised.


quote:
Another thing I am seeing relavent to this discussion is that people like to blame things on the person being attacked. If you think of a kid attracting a bully at a playground then normally what you would do is stop the bully and then try to take of the kid's inner self so he can become balanced and not attract negativity. What I am seeing are people preaching before they take care of the bully or simply not taking care of the bully at all. The kid cannot help himself if he is in the middle of the attack. He cannot become balanced because he has to worry about his own survival first. I am seeing pictures of you guys going up to Dark Knight right when she is being attacked and saying "you must embrace the fluffy bunies and become happy, you should have no negativity so the bully will not be attracted to you." and DK is saying "will you shut up and friggin HELP ME." The bully can be seen as an evil spirit as well.


The kid at school being beaten up by bullies cannot escape the fact that the problem happened, but he has the choice as to whether he’s going to allow it to happen again or not, or whether he’s going to live in fear for the rest of his life because of it.
 
I really don’t think the people here are blaming anyone who’s been attacked. That’s very much been DK’s perception, and frankly I just don’t see it. What I do see however is people who feel that someone in her situation should start taking more responsibility for their own recovery. DK has asked moderators to stop people from attacking her, and when we’ve looked at the situation, there’s been no attack. Quite the opposite in fact. There's been more of a need to warn her to stop attacking people.

To be honest I’m not surprised that people here have been unable to help her. Look at her first main post –
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6730

From the very start of her time on this forum she was hostile towards anyone who would not accept this personal crusade against the dark powers that she felt necessary to warn us all of. She threatened to leave this site then, but kept coming back, and continued being hostile to people. Why is that? What did she hope to gain from this? Attention seeking perhaps? Did she think she was teaching us all a lesson? She might have been telling people to shut up and help her, but only amongst words of scorn and criticism.

Think about these saying –

“Act the way you want to become and you will become the way you act.”
 - Dr Rob Gilbert

“I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it. And so it is with you….we are all in charge of our attitudes”
 - Charles Swindoll

How has she acted towards people here? What has her attitude been like while she’s been criticising us for ours?

No matter what a person’s problems are, the administrator and moderators here are not going to allow someone to treat this forum and its members like doormats or punching bags.

When someone comes to this forum with such negativity, any words of encouragement, no matter how practical, are going to seem like fluffy bunnies. This is simply a matter of the point of perspective.

Regards,
James.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 03, 2004, 10:10:30
ooo, forgot,

No, my problem with Mayatnik has nothing to do with whether there is gov't involvement or not...I have a problem with people who see lying as a legitimate method of conveying a lesson


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 03, 2004, 10:30:27
quote:
RB makes a few references to the fluffy bunnies approach where people find themselves in the lower astral regions. Just like happy thoughts helped make Peter Pan fly, it will also help the traveller lift themselves out of the dark regions. Same is true for those who have suffered persecution or depression. The happy thoughts, the fluffy bunnies aren’t just psychology, such happiness does produce chemicals in the body, like dopamine, that really are beneficial to us both physically and mentally. So I don’t think that fluffy bunnies is just a new age avoidance mechanism, its something that has a measurable effect.


Yes I completely agree with Robert's philosophy there, but that is off topic a bit. We are not talking about somoone in hell, we are talking about a victim in the middle of a psychic attack. If I wanted to think positive while defending myself against someone throwing a punch at me I would get hit in the face. The same goes for a psychic attack. Deal with the problem first, then use the positive thinking. What I am seeing is the philosophy of telling the person to think positively while the punch is being thrown.
Example:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9742

Using this as an example:
quote:
The kid at school being beaten up by bullies cannot escape the fact that the problem happened, but he has the choice as to whether he’s going to allow it to happen again or not, or whether he’s going to live in fear for the rest of his life because of it.


Of course the people here are the ones who do not want the psychic attacks to continue, and have chosen to come for some advice and help if they can recieve. They get the "fluffie bunnie" and the "Negs are only caused by yourself" response (examples in link above) and wonder if they are being called insane or if they are getting help. Thus frustrated, they start taking out aggression on the two groups (1: fluffie bunny people)  (2: it's all you people) giving the response.

quote:
What I do see however is people who feel that someone in her situation should start taking more responsibility for their own recovery.


How can she be trying to recover when in the middle of an attack?

quote:
To be honest I’m not surprised that people here have been unable to help her. Look at her first main post –


I really HATE REPEATING MYSELF. For the last time she is recovering because ALL OF THE ATTACKS ARE BEING SHIELDED. This is about the tenth and last time I am going to say it. She is in a recovery state right now, and as some of you undoubtedly noticed very pleased to say it.

With all the people saying that "it's in your head" "this is your fantasy" "you must be positive" "I think you should question your own..." "You need to go to a psychiatrist" "It's your own thought form" coupled with the fact that she is asking for help, and in the middle of an attack. Add the fact that she is partly being controlled, and you have a VERY understandably mad person.

quote:
Think about these saying –

“Act the way you want to become and you will become the way you act.”
- Dr Rob Gilbert

“I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it. And so it is with you….we are all in charge of our attitudes”
- Charles Swindoll


Good advice, I think the combination of these two are more suited to the situation, and why she is reacting the way she has.  

quote:
Treat others the way you want to be treated

quote:
Close doesn't cut it.


Also to quote DK directly on why she is acting this way.
quote:
Needing support occasionally isn't being a victim, it's being human


I agree she was a little too offensive in some posts but her reaction is understandable.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 03, 2004, 16:20:07
Yes I completely agree with Robert's philosophy there, but that is off topic a bit. We are not talking about somoone in hell, we are talking about a victim in the middle of a psychic attack.

Hell is a relative term.  It is relative to a person's religion, and it is relative to a person's POV.  It seems I have seen DK describe her situation as "a hell" a number of times, and that is entirely relevant.  

Why does a person go to a hell?  Regardless of how just you view a God who sends souls to hell, it is supposed to be justice for a sinful life, as payment for their choices.

This is very relevant to our position.

If I wanted to think positive while defending myself against someone throwing a punch at me I would get hit in the face. The same goes for a psychic attack.

Perhaps you are doing it wrong.  Example from Tayesin's own site:
http://www.geocities.com/tayesin/index10.html

Of course the people here are the ones who do not want the psychic attacks to continue, and have chosen to come for some advice and help if they can recieve. They get the "fluffie bunnie" and the "Negs are only caused by yourself" response (examples in link above)...

This is the disagreement that you and DK seem to raise every time at our approach to your respective problems, and is the fundamental issue explored in this thread.   Let's take a good look at it.

You and DK take the fluffy bunny approach as being our denial that you actually have any trouble at all.  I don't think anyone on this forum would say it was actually that simple, but I don't speak for everyone else, I can only speak for myself.   The actual line of reasoning is that OUR OUTLOOK DETERMINES OUR EXPERIENCE.  You take this to mean that if we simply deny negative things, then negative things cease to happen, and you say "examples in link above" as proof of your assertion.

Very well, let me look at the link above, and I'll quote MY OWN examples:

quote:
If someone is harmful to us, then we should defend ourselves...

Yes, threats can happen and need to be dealt with...

Surely, bad things can happen to good people...


Nowhere do I say that negative things cease to happen, or simply do not exist.  Also, as James has pointed out, what we determine to be 'bad' is also individualistic, a matter of identification and polarization - but that may be too subtle a point for this discussion, if not this topic.

Your statement "...the "Negs are only caused by yourself" is a vast defensive oversimplification.

Thus frustrated, they start taking out aggression on the two groups (1: fluffie bunny people) (2: it's all you people) giving the response.

I see that differently.  I see someone who tried to fight negativity with negativity, got their butt whipped, and now they are going to do the exact same thing again.  

How can she be trying to recover when in the middle of an attack?

Here is something from elsewhere here at AP:

When someone you care about is ill or having problems, you can astral project to where they are in the real time plane and help them. You can see the colors and tones of a person's energy when you are in the astral. It helps if you temporarily change part of your shape when working on a friend or loved one. Extend the length of your arm and fingers and use them to go through your patient's energy field. Remove any energy that seems wrong or bad and then banish it from the person.

You banish the energy by changing it to a pure white color with different tones. You can also send it to a energy level which will disassemble the negative energy. A high- pitched pure white energy will destroy the components of anything negative. You will find that they do feel better the next time you talk to them. Sometimes they are so used to negative energy that it is drawn back to them. I have found that is because that the inner them feels that is the way it should look in their aura. They have to find the root cause of this and that is where my articles on letting go, forgiving yourself, and finding out if something else could be causing the problems come in handy.


In other words, you examine yourself, taking into account the character of the astral realm, for where you are opening yourself to this energy.

She is in a recovery state right now, and as some of you undoubtedly noticed very pleased to say it.

I am very glad to hear that she is feeling much more in control of herself.

Good advice, I think the combination of these two are more suited to the situation, and why she is reacting the way she has.

Your reply points out that you have completely missed the point of the quotes, which is our own power over ourselves, not others power to tinkle us off.

Also to quote DK directly on why she is acting this way.

 
quote:
Needing support occasionally isn't being a victim, it's being human


And this validates all her abuse of other people... how?

While researching my reply I came across another quote of mine which I think is relavent:

 
quote:
You will notice in Robert Bruce's quote used in Dark Knight's sig that he never denies karma or self responsibility, only that he is recomending a different approach to self-responsibility. You can no more deny your experience in the astral than seeing your own face in the mirror.


SD you speak at length about the value of Experience, expressing total confidence in yours.  However, there is a greater experience than our individual experience, and that is our collective experience.

If you really want to objectively test how our outlook affects our experience, than it should be treated scientifically.   Who is it that experiences the astral negatively, and who experiences it positively?  Correlate this with who feels 'threatened' and 'attacked' as opposed to those who do not feel threatened or attacked, and you will see what I mean.   Even further we carry our correlation of negative outlook, negative expectation, and negative experience.

You might say, "But not everyone is attacked the same."  True, but the problem with this, if you will research around, is that practically everyone has faced threats, some of them pretty horrendous - the difference has largely been their reaction to it, as determined by their outlook.   This, in turn, judging by the outcome, effects their experience.  

That is our point.

One more time, in case you missed it:    http://www.geocities.com/tayesin/index10.html

SD, the wording and reasoning of "The fluffy bunny" is nothing but an ad hominem derogatory exaggeration, designed to weaken our case against which you can think of no better counter argument.

For shame.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: James S on February 03, 2004, 19:57:38
SD,

Your arguments are at a point where you are trying to justify the actions of someone who went on the offensive against other members here LONG BEFORE they even started talking fluffy bunnies (hehe.. I'm afraid I'm going to have a hard time ridding myself of that term, it's a good one [:)]).

No, I'm sorry, her reactions on this site from the start have been neither understandable or justifiable. They are the reactions of a petulant child - stamping her foot because people aren't giving her the attention she wants. I saw the words "respect" used earlier - respect cannot be demanded, it must be earned.

To bring the conversation back to Perena's original point -

quote:
You can imagine other situations on your own, but you see where this is going. Where a natural approach to explore those things in a calm and positive way would do the job, the fear and negativity instilled by people who like to 'fight' and 'attack' for whatever reason does nothing to alleviate the problem - in fact it makes it worse! Where's the sense in projecting your fear outwards and then attacking them?


What I have seen you speaking of mostly here fits in with this scenario.  Violence begets violence. When you go on the offensive against these dark spiritual forces, you're playing their game. It would not surprise me at all if attacks are repeated as a result of this.

Look at Tayesins website, esp. the page Kiauma listed and you see a completely different approach -

"Even if you feel fear when confronted with a Dark Sider,  you must face that fear and respond Lovingly."

Is this not a fluffy bunny approach?

Please consider,
James.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 03, 2004, 20:27:56
A direct quote from Robert Bruce's book, Practical Psychic Self Defense:

Avoid the Love and Light Approach:

Contrary to the advice of many modern spiritual teachers, turning the other cheek, refusing to fight back, and sending loving thoughts to an attacking or possessing neg is not productive and borders on the ridiculous. It is an ineffective approach when dealing with  attacking or possessing negs.

A channeled spirit once told me that I come under so many intense psychic attacks because I resist. It said my resistance was an open challenge and this, in itself, attracts and causes psychic attacks. I was told to stop resisting and love my enemy, and that the attacks would stop if I ceased my fiery resistance. I tried this once (I'll try just about anything once) and it almost got me killed. I suffered a lot more damage than I would have, had I countered the attack in my usual way. Submitting to an attack and sending loving thoughts, if anything, empowers attacking Negs.

...Negs thrive on love and light approach and use it to further their ends. They use these gentle spiritual beliefs against people. Negs play on these and often pretend to be misguided lost spirits, projecting seemingly harmless illusory forms to the perceptions of sensitives. But in truth they are just furthering their controls. Negs are masters of lies, trickery, and deception. A troublesome spirit, no matter what it pretends to be, should never be trusted further than one can throw it. Negs should never be given the benefit of the doubt.

pages 291-292 of Practical Psychic Self Defense.

And I don't recall Robert Bruce using Fluffy Bunny approach when he was demonically possessed and almost died out in the Australian Bush (pages 135 -142)

There is no Robert Bruce here...




Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 03, 2004, 20:45:55
I disagree with Robert Bruce's POV.  

So, tell me how this works again - Love and light actually feed negs? [xx(]  His assertions run contrary to several WIDELY observed effects - kind of like yours.

I'm beginning to think nobodies perfect, not even Robert Bruce. [;)]



Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: shedt on February 03, 2004, 20:59:06
Hmm, this is what i personally think:

Being negative probally will draw attention from Negs. Keeping positive and ignoring attacks will help, but if needed you might have to fight back.

but in the end you have to look inside yourself, and fix the problems that you have. you have to create a end too the attacks. find out why they are happening.

true happiness comes from inside does it not ?

this is all IMHO


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Mick on February 03, 2004, 21:00:25
quote:
Originally posted by kiauma
[brHell is a relative term.  It is relative to a person's religion, and it is relative to a person's POV.  It seems I have seen DK describe her situation as "a hell" a number of times, and that is entirely relevant.  

Why does a person go to a hell?  Regardless of how just you view a God who sends souls to hell, it is supposed to be justice for a sinful life, as payment for their choices.

This is very relevant to our position.
 

I suspect that the term hell here is simply being used to describe a persons life under say duress and is not reflective of some spiritual judgement of that person.
 
quote:

Here is something from elsewhere here at AP:

When someone you care about is ill or having problems, you can astral project to where they are in the real time plane and help them. You can see the colors and tones of a person's energy when you are in the astral. It helps if you temporarily change part of your shape when working on a friend or loved one. Extend the length of your arm and fingers and use them to go through your patient's energy field. Remove any energy that seems wrong or bad and then banish it from the person.

You banish the energy by changing it to a pure white color with different tones. You can also send it to a energy level which will disassemble the negative energy. A high- pitched pure white energy will destroy the components of anything negative. You will find that they do feel better the next time you talk to them. Sometimes they are so used to negative energy that it is drawn back to them. I have found that is because that the inner them feels that is the way it should look in their aura. They have to find the root cause of this and that is where my articles on letting go, forgiving yourself, and finding out if something else could be causing the problems come in handy.



Hey, it looks like you have got it ;)
Someone assists someone else experiencing problems following which they have the opportunity to re-instate themselves to a secure and whole state again and get on with their life. I think this has been the thrust of some here for some time and the negative reaction (no pun intended :) ) is to the 'self' only solution whereas others accept that a kick start to assist someone is valid and viable.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 03, 2004, 21:13:37
Well DK, I see you edited your post to be slanted more against people who disagree with you.  Tut-tut.

Honestly, I don't say this to be mean DK, but you are too ready of a self-made example to pass up.   Bottom line, why follow you and your beliefs when you are so obviously the antithesis of a positive functional person?  For all your 'truth', I see all your carefully nurtured 'hard spikey bunny' mentality has brought you is misery upon misery.  If seeing the 'truth' means I have to adopt your attitude and demeaner, then I would rather dissipate, because it could only mean GOd has abandoned us - which he hasn't, and won't.

Each time you display your virulent angry nature it only further reinforces what I already knew to be true, that negativity begets negativity, and violence begets violence - and today I am a ready enough self-made example of this.

Thanks for the demonstration.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kakkarot on February 03, 2004, 22:20:02
DK: fight the evil ones, the ones causing you pain. not the ones who are trying to help you. be loving to your friends, and fight against those who would hurt you.

i myself have also seen too many times when someone would try to help you and you would verbally assault them back. true, this negative attack against you might be happening, but that doesn't give you the right to hurt other people.

perhaps EVERYONE involved in this discussion, should step away from their computers and think about what's been going on and also to take a deep calming breath, before they reply again.

[:)] light and love to those who would help you [:)].

~kakkarot


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 03, 2004, 22:21:17
And another thing,

Negs thrive on love and light approach and use it to further their ends. They use these gentle spiritual beliefs against people.

Now I begin to see the depth of the misconception, and the root of the confusion.

Of course 'Negs' (Oh, how I abhor that expression) are deceitful, and 'prey' on people's ignorance - but what kind of horse manure is it to say 'Negs' thrive on love and light?

Let's look at this closer.

What is evil?  That is an easy one - evil is the absence of love.  Therefore, when we deny love, or withhold it out of fear, we are in fact being evil.  

But don't believe me - I just may be someone who is being manipulated by 'Negs'.   But how about Jesus?  Mohammed?  Mother Theresa?  Zoroaster?  The Bhagavad Gita?  Osho?  Don Ruiz... Gary Zukav...  a THOUSAND other spiritual giants who preached giving love freely?

You have one book DK, but I have a thousand for you to read that say otherwise.  I suggest you read them AND THEN if you can still stand here and talk about how love is used by 'Negs'...

...well, I don't know what to tell you.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: shedt on February 03, 2004, 22:41:26
quote:
Originally posted by kakkarot

DK: fight the evil ones, the ones causing you pain. not the ones who are trying to help you. be loving to your friends, and fight against those who would hurt you.

i myself have also seen too many times when someone would try to help you and you would verbally assault them back. true, this negative attack against you might be happening, but that doesn't give you the right to hurt other people.

perhaps EVERYONE involved in this discussion, should step away from their computers and think about what's been going on and also to take a deep calming breath, before they reply again.

[:)] light and love to those who would help you [:)].

~kakkarot



i want to quote you so everyone can read your awesome post again.

everyone here for the most part seems so bent on "proving' something.

what's wrong with just simplfiying it like kakkarot did ?

If she has attacks, offer solutions. if not, offer her ways too help herself heal herself.



Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kakkarot on February 03, 2004, 22:52:43
did jesus use love when he confronted the pharasees? when he called them hypocrites and snakes? when he overturned the money changing tables? [|)]

sure jesus did preach love, to the lost and those who need it, but not to those who ACTIVELY were messing with God's Will. if a man strikes you across your right cheek, turn to him the other also, but if a man willingly and consciously acts against God then you are to have nothing to do with them. (note the context: if a person acts against you, forgive them. if a person acts against God, don't hate them, but don't associate with them. if they still try to attack you, rebuke them, turn them from you, defend yourself. but once they give it up, let them go. but all of that is from a christian perspective.)

edit: thanks for the compliment shedt [:)]. but there was also another point that i was trying to make: (and this applies to DK and anyone else) if someone helps you, don't turn on them. it's just common sense :) .

~kakkarot


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 03, 2004, 23:02:21
Good way to step back kakkarot.  [;)]

Yes, there is a Christian slant to that, which is hardly as simple as you are making out - but your point that the church's view is conditional is made.  There is a lot of debate of Jesus' 'original' message and how it has been changed throughout the millenia.
 
But in any case, 999 to go!  [:)]


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: James S on February 04, 2004, 00:10:49
Kakkarot,

Thank you for once again injecting a bit of objectivity back into the discussion.

I've been starting to miss the point of the topic for the sake of making a more personal point. Regardless of how important I've considered it to be to make this point, it is not really helping to further the understandings of newcomers to this forum who might be reading this topic in the hope of gaining knowledge.

Dark Knight,

It is interesting that RB has made this point! In Astral Dynamics he has spoken of the effect of positive emotions and the effects they have on a traveller in the astral. He has also mentioned dealing with negs in the astral by way of using white light to fend them off. It may only be my personal opinion / perspective, but I've always equated white light - the purest of all energy - with the manifest love or spirit of the Creator.

I highly doubt Robert would provide info in one book that goes against what he's said in another. I think as with all references to someone elses writing we need to look more carefully at the context in which they've presented the information.

In case your wondering, no I don't dislike you, or all of what you've said. I've disliked how you've gone about saying it.

I've probably said enough. I doubt I can really contribute anything else useful to this topic without spending either more time learning from my teacher guide, or more time in the astral finding out things for myself.

Till then - take care,
James.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 04, 2004, 01:24:38
Ya know, reading more careful it doesn't say 'Negs' feed on love, it actually points to them taking advantage of good intentions, I think.

In any case, I spose I had better back off for a while too.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 04, 2004, 01:56:56
Yes this has gone on long enough, we should stop for a bit.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: bluelite on February 04, 2004, 05:23:45
This seems to be a very hot debate so I will offer my brief 2 cents from a personal perspective.

First I must say that psychic attack is very real and is not being made up by anyone. As one who have travelled to the highest and lowest planes of the astral I have seen and heard things that would make even the bravest travellers quiver in fear.


Although there are different ways of dealing with these undesirables there are some simple techniqes that can be of great help.

 1. "Like attracts like" in other words if you are interested or constanly focussing your attention on these so called "negs" or other lower forms of astal life from the visible or invisible world they automatcally begin to draw themselves closer to you in the physical. It is like the flies that come around to feed on decaying matter.


2. "Passivity or Activity" this is another important rule in the astral as the stronger force will eventually overcome the weaker one. In other words if you wish to change your present negative mental or emotional condition you must engage in positive activities that will eventually overpower and replace the negative one .



These two rules can be used to prevent and even reduce many forms of psychic attacks.


Bluelight


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: taom1234 on February 04, 2004, 06:03:02
I was thinking....... the stronger of the vibrations will always overcome the weaker.  Apparently this was known even in the times of Socrates when it was discovered that our vibrations will be elevated in sync with  harmonious music. I know many of you, when APing, have felt that some of the etheric music is so profoundly moving, that if it were to be heard in our physical bodies, we would simply burn up because we could not contain it.
So......I was thinking...... if we were under psychic attack, we could remove the negativity by exposing ourselves to a lesser form of the etheric musical vibrations so that our physical bodies could tolerate it and burn off the negativity. The musical vibrations are so pure that it would work.  We would just need to be exposed to it in a lesser degree.
Just as certain harmonious music will very quickly "lift our spirits" (this term has true meaning from long ago...."lift the bad vibrations"), there must be a way to have these vibrations experienced in a lesser degree here in the physical world.  Does anyone know of any research that has been done in this field?  I have been thinking about this for some time now.  Every part of my soul tells me it is true and that there must be a way to have it work.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 04, 2004, 08:12:34
All right Kakkarot, being a Catholic, I'd never turn down the advice of Christ.

Are you all that cut off from each other. You've turned self focus into isolationisn as Mick suggests, perfectly.

Your actions contributing to a suicidal person doesn't matter...at all. As always, thank you Kakkarot for proving to me that people only see the intent and do not care about the consequences of their actions.

Can't see it, can't feel it, it does not exist. Your perceptions are accurate and only yours, so there are no other lessons beyond the self. You "tried" up until the boundary that differentiates self from other.

Find the context? You have to acknowledge "self" and "other" and you can only acknowledge "self." You acknowledge the attack and nothing beyond it. That kind of pride will be costly someday.


 



Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 04, 2004, 11:28:16
Your perceptions are accurate and only yours, so there are no other lessons beyond the self.

"Love thy neighbor as thy self"
~Jesus

A thousand books DK.  Your pride has cost you plenty, and continues to - but that point seems completely lost in your private context.

Projection, projection, projection.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 04, 2004, 11:32:10
"how dare you be so comfortable at the expense of others..."

Mother Theresa




Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Fuzziwig on February 04, 2004, 12:09:07
Hello all
My guide will comment on some of the things in previous post.
Quotes in blue and my guide Jopeha in maroon.

Spectral Dragon you say:
Back to edi's subject for a sec.
Typical new age thinking is spirit=love, goodness, and fluffy bunnies (sorry my humor is wierd too.) Therefore, according to this view, "evil spirits" don't exist. I am seeing a lot of this in this thread, that all spirits external in the astral plane are all good. What I have noticed is that many new agers come from orthodox christian backgrounds. The idea that god is a being that makes all things for a good purpose, and that trying to astral project or do serious meditation will cause you to be yoked with evil demons. A friend of mine for example has avoided astral projection for a long time because he was afraid that it was demonic or he would get involved with demons. They still think that way when going into new age thinking. In order to deal with the nagging doubt that they might be getting involved with demons, they just say that demons and negative psychic forces do not exist. This is not the case. Evil exists because of life's will to exist, and becuase we chose to exist we are not perfect.

The idea that the words as expressed by the guides should have basis in newage thinking is simply not true. The guides have expressed themselves to inform the members of alternate approaches to dealing with 'negs' or negative spirits. The reason we do this, is because of a range of ideas that seems to be focused on slaying and vanquishing the negative spirits, who only wish to be helped out of their misfortune. We dont see a reason to fight these spirits, as they only seek help and are met by this attitude that inflicts them with more anger and suffering. In no way can it be benificial to start a campaign on principals based on destruction and harm on negative spirits, as they too deserve to be treated with the same kind of understanding as the positive spirits. The negative spirits may not have the same benificial approach in seeking contact to gain help, but that shouldnt exclude them from being able to recieve it. Many spirits find themselves in a very difficult position, where they cannot find the outside understanding of their suffering, and they are left to solve their misfurtune on themselves. Not only can this be difficult, but also take a very long time before they are properly healed to reach the next stage in their existance. We dont encourage people to turn the other cheak to the attacks that they are being victims of, as that would only make the attacks go on, till the spirit had reached resolution. We find it a good idea to communicate with the spirit to reach an understanding of the problem that the spirit might have. Only in this instance would it be possible to solve the spirits problem and stop the attacks in the same process. It would be pointless to reach an understanding of the problem without the communication to the spirit, and this is why we encourage people to talk to the spirit and listen to what is said by the spirit. It may not be possible for the person to communicate with the spirit, and this is why it would be a good idea to seek help from others with these abilities so a resolution in the spirit can be made.

I know that the guides are willing to give further insights into these things and so the members are welcome to ask about them, if not through their own guide if such a contact exists.

Light and Compassion
Fuzziwig


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 04, 2004, 12:59:10
Hello Fuzziwig,

How do you, or your guide rather, define love?


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 04, 2004, 13:08:39
"how dare you be so comfortable at the expense of others..."

What an odd and perplexing reply.  This makes a couple of assumptions, that I am 'comfortable', and that this comfort is somehow derived from, or otherwise at, the cost of someone else.

Those are pretty big assumptions DK.  Care to share where you got that idea (presumably) about me?

Because I'll tell you, I have plenty of things I could be doing besides trying to route your self-evident pain.  In response for my troubles, you hint that you could commit suicide, and that this will somehow be caused by me?  Also, that it will 'cost me someday'!  Why in the world would someone make such an assumption, such an accusation - such a threat(?!)?  

Now, I know I have bordered on making this personal and for that I feel very badly - but frankly, if you are so unbalanced that a comment by someone on a 'net forum, someone who you have never met and have no idea if he is 'comfortable' or not, at the expense of others or not, could possibly result in your demise, whether physically, menatally, or spiritually, then I think you are REALLY in the wrong place!  It is obviously very dangerous for you.

Now, I'll admit I'm learning a tremendous amount about negativity here, both from you and your friends and my reaction to it - it has value for me, and I am certainly not in fear of commiting suicide over it.  If, as it appears, you see no value in conversing with me, or even negative value - possible suicide - then I suggest you think of your choices.  

Given your statements, it just sounds prudent.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 04, 2004, 14:01:24
Now that is comedy...

I inserted the comment about suicide deliberately. No it's not me, I was referring to someone else back in post. Here's the quote:

 
quote:
This kind of behavior takes its toll after time…Fuzzy, Sam, during the Christmas Holiday I exchanged emails with a former member of this site who was on the verge of suicide. She couldn’t do it anymore, couldn’t cope with the attacks and try to engage the forced defensiveness of the love and light loonies. That is the consequence this behavior creates. Hey when you convince people they have to prove they need their experiences respected, and that person can’t, the logic becomes “I don’t deserve respect.” I showed her something, I won’t say what. She wrote back saying that I had confirmed something she had been suspecting and it made her feel better. I gave the suggestion, she pulled herself up (she deserves the credit not me, I only validated something she had already thought of).


Thank you for proving two things to me...you don't read my posts, and everything I say is thought of in reference to myself...whether it is the gov't, the greys, the attacks or whatever.

Just to let you know because I know Spectral is tired of repeating himself...I am just fine, thank you.

Want don't you actually go back and read that post I quoted from. Maybe then you'll know what I am talking about when I quote Mother Theresa "how dare you be so comfortable at the expense of others."




Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 04, 2004, 14:12:57
Ah!  I was mistaken.  Thank you for pointing it out to me.  

Ya know, I apologise.  Everyday it's the same thing - people moan "my life is crapola because of 'X'".  It gets monotonous.  I do get lazy after a while - people like you keep me sharp.

As to the rest, it is still just assumption and projection on your part, irregardless of what I am really thinking.



Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Nay on February 04, 2004, 14:51:31
I cringe when I read about people speaking of commiting sucide, especially if they come across with.. You better change your tune or am going to commit sucide and it will be all your fault..*shiver*

At the age of 8 tru 9, I was physically and mentally abused by a very disturbed step mother.  She ultimately committed suicide, and I am going to be graphic here, because I think it needs to be told in complete detail.  

First she took all the savings my father had put away for his family,(thousands!) and gave it to her boys.  She got her hair permed, put on her wedding dress, took many, many pills and wrote a letter...her writing got worse as the pills started to take their effect.  Then she put two garbage bags around her head and tied them around her neck. She went to MY room, layed down on my bed and that is where my father found her.....her hands were frozen in claws up towards her face, in a futile attempt to ripp the bag off but the pills did their job too well.  He had to cut the ropes that she had used.  I will not describe what she looked like, but my father will have that vision for the rest of his life.

I wrote this post because, in that letter she blamed me...a child for the reason of taking her life.  That was a heavy load to carry, I say was because I dropped those feelings of guilt many years ago..thank goodness, who knows where I could have went from there.  I am glad I chose the high road and saved myself from which could have been years of self abusive tendacies.  Oh, I was angry..very angry for well...up until just a few months ago. (Thanks Maya [;)]) When I got older I did see that there were many lessons there.

So, be careful when you play the blame game...ESPECIALLY when suicide is envolved.  I personally think it is a very cowardly act and very, very selfish.  Most people just use it as a way to get the attention of others, and really have no intentions of going thru with it.  That is going to the lowest of lows, which I would call, emotionally black mail.  But before I get yelled at..[^] I will also say that it is a indication of someone who is crying out for help and feels this is the last rabbit that they can pull out of the hat.

Kiuma, please do not let this cover you in guilt...tis not you.

I have told DK of my abuse, not in the details but the answer I got back was....  Couldn't have been that tough. And some things should be spoken out against...assuming you ever had a backbone to do it or ever believed in something.

Oh..wait, there is more....[;)]

Honey, if you think that's the worse that can happen, God help you.
What you've described sounds abusive, not horrific. Try being able to tell the diference.


Of course I am not going to tell every single day of my life and what happpened...but to me..it was horrific, and have the scars to prove it.

Nay

I see that once again, while I post others have posted...good to hear that.  


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 04, 2004, 15:24:24
Well, that certainly demonstrates DK's authority on compassion!  [B)]

That is horriffic, Nay.  That is a terrible thing to have suffered.  Your step mother was very disturbed, not just in the way she tried to end her pain, but in how she obviously meant to spread it around when she went.

God bless you.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 04, 2004, 16:04:00
You're not a little girl anymore, Nay, you're an adult with responsibilities. You can't cower in terror and hold people back because of your fear.

And you were also the one telling people being attacked that you could probably take on our negs with a chicken bone.

I'm wondering how it would've made you feel if I went back in time to the point you just described and held a chicken bone in front of your face telling you, "this will make it all better."

If that puts me in the gutter, where does it put you? Move through and face your fears and your responsibility or get the hell out of the way.



Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 04, 2004, 16:19:09
From Nay:
I say was because I dropped those feelings of guilt many years ago..thank goodness, who knows where I could have went from there. I am glad I chose the high road and saved myself from which could have been years of self abusive tendacies. Oh, I was angry..very angry for well...up until just a few months ago. (Thanks Maya ) When I got older I did see that there were many lessons there.

From DK:
You can't cower in terror and hold people back because of your fear.  

Move through and face your fears and your responsibility or get the hell out of the way.


Sounds like somebody else is not reading posts... and is still angry...


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Nay on February 04, 2004, 16:22:03
Lordy...this is bordering on the absurd..

Yes, I know I am adult and had you read my post you have seen that I have overcome much.

The chicken bone comment, was me saying if I had enough belief in the chicken bone, it would help...don't you see?  it's not the bone, but the thought behind it, that does all the work.  
 
quote:
I'm wondering how it would've made you feel if I went back in time to the point you just described and held a chicken bone in front of your face telling you, "this will make it all better."

I was a child and probably would have thought you to be nuts to toss a chicken bone at me..[^]

 
quote:
If that puts me in the gutter, where does it put you? Move through and face your fears and your responsibility or get the hell out of the way.
I honestly have no idea what this means...   That is why I was trying to help you,(back when this all started) because I HAD faced mine..  I can't help you, because there is something going on with you, that I feel has nothing to do with Negs but your own mind.  And until you see it for what it is, it will haunt you till the end of your days.

Nay


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 04, 2004, 19:27:49
Hey!  How about some comic relief everyone!?

I thought so.  [^]

http://www.onion.com/4005/news1.html


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Nay on February 04, 2004, 19:32:28
Hahahahahaha....white hot fury!  I have to admit, I yell a bit at the people who act as if they are driving with their eyes closed..[:P]

Thanks for the laugh, Kiauma [:D]

Nay


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: LordoftheBunnies on February 04, 2004, 21:09:49
If these negs are the spirits of dead people, then personally I would be wary thinking that they simply want help.  Murderers, rapists and tyrants aren't going to be any more loving in death than in life, and probably aren't particularily interested in our help either, except in the sense of using our good intentions against us.

Still, using the "slash and kill" approach to deal with criminals is probably not the best approach.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 04, 2004, 21:25:42
quote:
Originally posted by LordoftheBunnies

If these negs are the spirits of dead people, then personally I would be wary thinking that they simply want help.  Murderers, rapists and tyrants aren't going to be any more loving in death than in life, and probably aren't particularily interested in our help either, except in the sense of using our good intentions against us.

Still, using the "slash and kill" approach to deal with criminals is probably not the best approach.



Oh my gosh Cris I can't believe you went through with that name. LOL you need a pic of that bunny from monty python.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 05, 2004, 02:02:31
Oh yes!  Now that is the fluffy bunny of fluffy bunnies! [:D]


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kakkarot on February 05, 2004, 16:57:00
well dk, your posts can be confusing at times. first you go on complaining about how bad off you are, and then you pretty much say "well bully to you, suck it up" when others say they've got it hard.

(i'm not one who's having trouble distinguishing myself from others, and even going beyond myself to think about others first dark knight, just so you know [:)].)

many members of these forums have gone through a bit of hell in their own lives. at one point in my life i was going to kill myself because i was scared that i was going to loose control of myself and hurt someone around me. i've been through many many psychic attacks in my life time and i've cowered from none of them, i've even stood up to God Himself on a couple of occassions when we had a ... "difference of opinion", but the one thing about my life that does scares me even to this day is that i could loose control and hurt someone else.

you complained that nay's attacks are nothing compared to what you've had to go through. i say that your attacks are nothing compared to what i've had to go through. does that mean i should look down on you and be mean to you if you try to help me but fail? i say no. when people try to help me, even if they fail to be able to do so, i still thank them for the kindness they displayed in trying. perhaps you could try that too [:)].

may you find wellness in your heart and in your mind ms. knight [:)].

(and one last thing for some clarity: no, ms. knight, i don't look down on you for the attacks you've been going through. i've felt pity that you've been having it so hard and i had now way of being able to help. i feel that way about a lot of people who post on the psychic self defense forum, and for a while i stayed away from this forum because i felt i could be of no use because i cannot astral project to people and take away their problems for them. but i've realized since then that not everyone needs someone else to "slay their demons" for them, that some people just need some good advice or even just an uplifting comment. granted, i'm not perfect and at times i post out of frustration and anger, but i still try to help people whenever i can. and the people who have said "thank you" to me showed more than enough appreciation for me to want to keep trying [:)])

~kakkarot


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 05, 2004, 19:03:11
I agree kakkarot.  Compassion is an identification that we are all in this together, and that we are all worthy of love and care.

I am very concerned about people who try to wear their pain like some kind of crown.  They are always saying their pain is worse than anyone elses, and demanding you agree.

Very sad.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 05, 2004, 20:19:49
Ready for round 3….

So if you do something that causes harm to someone it’s OK because your intentions were good? You meant well and wanted to help so the harm you did was inconsequential? You can have the best of intentions and still cause considerable harm to someone.

Like dropping an anvil on someone’s foot and saying, “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to drop this anvil on your foot, therefore your foot shouldn’t hurt and you shouldn’t get upset over it because I meant well.”

Keep dropping the anvil on the person’s foot repeatedly, time after time…the person has to worry about the attacks and you? No room to walk away at all? That’s your idea of helping or support? And on top of it, you can’t figure what part of the puzzle you’re missing so you want the person you’re dropping the anvil on to compromise by putting up with it instead of you compromising and learning.

I don’t give a damn what you’re intentions are. If you are missing information, it’s your responsibility to stand up and take claim of the lesson. You don’t make it the responsibility of the person you’re dropping the anvil on. What effect do you think your actions have over time, what kind of impact do you think you impart?

Nay’s mother can commit suicide and blame her, affecting her life for a long time to come, but your actions can’t have the same effect on someone else? Even to the point of driving them to suicidal tendencies…you have no responsibility, that’s what you’re telling me!

You’re not a child being blamed by an adult, you are adults blaming temporarily weaker adults.

You don’t have to learn how to AP or fight negs to be of help to people. The only thing you have to fight and learn more about is your own ignorance about the needs and rights of others. That is not an unreasonable lesson to learn. It doesn’t have to be done in the PSD forum…but it has to be done, you can’t run away from this forever, and your fear is not going to drive this argument away.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 05, 2004, 21:00:29
Like dropping an anvil on someone’s foot...

Why didn't you use the  example of, say... driving a spike through someone's head?

I would comment on the rest but it's just as poorly conceived.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Nay on February 05, 2004, 21:14:34
Yeah..I am sorry, but that just didn't make sense.  And the looney toons music kept running around in my head making it even more difficult.

I not even sure whom the post was directed towards...?

Nay





Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kakkarot on February 05, 2004, 22:05:29
how did anyone here hurt you, DK?

~kakkarot


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: James S on February 06, 2004, 01:02:23
quote:
Originally posted by Nay

Yeah..I am sorry, but that just didn't make sense.  And the looney toons music kept running around in my head making it even more difficult.

I not even sure whom the post was directed towards...?

Nay


Well, all I can say to that is BEEP BEEP

Umm...DK, could you please rethink and rephrase that last post, coz...I just don't get it??

It occurs to me that if you go to see a doctor about a problem, and you don't like the diagnosis, you always have the choice to go and see another doctor. Just because the first doctor didn't give good advice doesn't mean he requires your frequent visits back to his office for the purpose of telling him how wrong he was. Chances are you'd be getting in the way of other patients who are satisfied with the treatments he's given them.
[?]
James.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Nagual on February 06, 2004, 05:10:42
quote:
So if you do something that causes harm to someone it’s OK because your intentions were good? You meant well and wanted to help so the harm you did was inconsequential?

So the solution is to never help anybody I guess...
quote:
Like dropping an anvil on someone’s foot and saying, “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to drop this anvil on your foot, therefore your foot shouldn’t hurt and you shouldn’t get upset over it because I meant well.”

The "your foot shouldn’t hurt" part is purposefuly stupid.
quote:
Keep dropping the anvil on the person’s foot repeatedly, time after time…the person has to worry about the attacks and you?.

Personal advice: move your foot after the first anvil drop...
quote:
I don’t give a damn what you’re intentions are. If you are missing information, it’s your responsibility to stand up and take claim of the lesson.

Asking for help is your responsability too.  You know that people will help as much as they can.

Being under attack is no excuse for being rude.  You are NOT the only one suffering being on this planet!  Why should we focus on you?  There are thousands/millions of people in much worse situation.  Children working in mines, or used as sex-slaves; etc...

You can't just ask for help and then tell them to get lost because their help sucks...  If you don't accept the possibility to loose, don't play.

Sorry, but I had my share of whining for more than 20 years through my mother...  It was her way to grab people's attention I guess.  At first, everybody was "Oh, poor you", "Oh, so sad", etc...  Then it would be "As usual", "Once again", "You asked for it".  The worst part is that, in the end, she was really asking for it (in order to be able to complain after)... [xx(]


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Anonymous on February 06, 2004, 05:54:29
I think I could summarize this entire post up to a few sentences: Do what you think is right. It's what we were meant to do, and is why we were given our own minds.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 06, 2004, 08:33:26
quote:
Personal advice: move your foot after the first anvil drop...


Uh, no, YOU learn, people under attack are not responsible for themselves and you. You need to become more aware of your surroundings and how your actions affect others, and if you've overcome what you claim, that shouldn't be impossible. Try using some of that positive attitude you claim you have and set your mind to it.

And when help was asked for we got it from Ender, or Sunnyblue, or Tayesin, or Spectral, or Bluelite, or Ardane...and when we told the others their comments were not helpful and why, they didn't stop, listen, or care. People suffering attacks were treated rudely, cricised to the point of forcibly being shut up,...and now you're on the receiving end and you don't like it (you're not even under attack and have alledgedly gotten over so much...what the hell is getting in your way in overcoming your failed shortcomings).


Well we'll try again, not that's gonna work, you guys are way too self focused to get this or be any effective help with your bad negative attitudes:

 
quote:
People under attack have a hard time making life work and have to compromise a tremendous amount of themselves just to make it through the basics of life,…have to fight sometimes to get the energy to get up and in the morning. Then on top of all that, they have to endure the abuse of people wanting to force fit their experiences onto theirs. When you tell them their ideas aren’t working, you’re told no, you’re just being irresponsible, or just being negative, why don’t you put in any effort…as if making life work as best they can wasn’t an effort. Your experiences are the end all, so it should work, and you deliberately put people who are under attack on the defensive to force it to be true. You forcibly challenge them to prove your wrong. The people suffering from psychic/supernatural attack are trying to cope with everyday life survival, they need serious help, not games…investing energy into something that does not work is just more energy depletion. It’s called honoring and respecting the self (how that is negative I have no idea). People who are under attack are expected to prove why they should have their needs respected…how in the hell do you prove that, especially when the consequences are flat out rejected as happening in reality.

Well, forcing individuals to defend themselves on why they should have their experiences and needs respected works as intended…shuts up people suffering attacks real well…can’t move through something or take responsibility without acknowledging it exists. No focus, energy stops flowing, blocks form. Since you can’t defend yourself, you end up playing a game that doesn’t work which causes you to lose more energy (and that is what I call being positive for the hell of being positive). That is what I call positive for the hell of being positive. Tends to tinkle you off after a while (That is the point, God gave us the power to become angry as a pain receptor to warn us when our value is being diminished…that isn’t a negative thing).


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Akensai on February 06, 2004, 08:42:31
I think Dark Knight is an unpleasant person (at least this is how you come over to me at the moment) and if perhaps you wonder why no satisfying help is offered to you this could be the reason why.

Now to get back to the topic, I think its true many "physic attacks" come forth, because of the negativity of the person in question, that’s not to say no real attacks happen, but I do think people are getting a very negative image about communication whit spirits and how to deal whit them.

Now I know I don’t have much knowledge on spirit communication, but from what if heard on this tread and my own experience that a lot of problems people have are often self inflicted (even if unconsciously), I think this is a fair assumption.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 06, 2004, 08:55:09
NO akensai,

Oh by the way, obviously since you haven't heard, I got the help I needed, thank you....

People suffering attacks aren't listened to, aren't validated, aren't respected, and aren't given what they need to overcome their problems.

They're given "advice" that doesn't coincide with their experiences or help, then they're forced to take it because if they don't...

Did it ever occur to many of you how unpleasant you may be?



Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Ramiel on February 06, 2004, 09:02:59
To be old and wise we must first be young and stupid.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Akensai on February 06, 2004, 09:16:33
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight


Did it ever occur to many of you how unpleasant you may be?


In fact it has and so i try not to be.

However i seems to me, some "good" people here tried to help you, but you refused them, exactly because YOU think the advise isn't good for you, but really are you in a position to judge, its you who has the problems. Even if the advice was really not working, do you have to be so rude about it, yes i know perhaps in your situation it’s hard, but none the less i think is needed to be polite and kind, only that way we can help each other.

Now you could criticize me that I know nothing of you and your situation, its true, for that I hope you don’t blame me if I’m really wrong, please point it out to me, but don’t be rude please, try to say it in a friendly way.

quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight


Oh by the way, obviously since you haven't heard, I got the help I needed, thank you....


I’m glad you have….


 
quote:
Ramiel: To be old and wise we must first be young and stupid.


YES!!! Another Post for you, but really could have said a little more than that one-liner?


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 06, 2004, 09:29:13
You're the first person I've met who has pointed the finger at him/herself instead of the people they are "alledgedly" trying to help. You've earned my respect.

Trying to help is not the same as forcing a type of help that does not work. And no one asks how their actions affect others, actually quite the opposite, they flat out deny it's happening. They tell people how to feel and debate it instead of asking and respecting.

And you can be a good person and still hurt somone terrbily and unintentionally...that's why lesson of "other" is so important.

If you haven't gone through the whole thread, a person from this site had suicidal tendencies because of all this...couldn't fight the negs and look to "move her foot from the falling anvil" at the same time and it took it's toll,...a very heavy toll. And the "good people offering help" neither want to hear it or make an effort to understand, just wanna whine and complain that they have to learn something.

Respect is important, but not more important than a human life. The person's life first, hurt feelings last, sorry. What can you get over more easily, your feelings getting hurt, or an action that caused serious, serious harm to someone?

If it means anything to you, go look at the Robert Bruce quote I made on page 4 of this thread.




Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Akensai on February 06, 2004, 09:51:26
quote:
Robert Bruce: Avoid the Love and Light Approach:

Contrary to the advice of many modern spiritual teachers, turning the other cheek, refusing to fight back, and sending loving thoughts to an attacking or possessing neg is not productive and borders on the ridiculous. It is an ineffective approach when dealing with attacking or possessing negs.

A channeled spirit once told me that I come under so many intense psychic attacks because I resist. It said my resistance was an open challenge and this, in itself, attracts and causes psychic attacks. I was told to stop resisting and love my enemy, and that the attacks would stop if I ceased my fiery resistance. I tried this once (I'll try just about anything once) and it almost got me killed. I suffered a lot more damage than I would have, had I countered the attack in my usual way. Submitting to an attack and sending loving thoughts, if anything, empowers attacking Negs.

...Negs thrive on love and light approach and use it to further their ends. They use these gentle spiritual beliefs against people. Negs play on these and often pretend to be misguided lost spirits, projecting seemingly harmless illusory forms to the perceptions of sensitives. But in truth they are just furthering their controls. Negs are masters of lies, trickery, and deception. A troublesome spirit, no matter what it pretends to be, should never be trusted further than one can throw it. Negs should never be given the benefit of the doubt.


Yes it seems strange to send love and light to your "attacker", but how do you know if a "neg" is really asking for help or is attacking you, now I think in some chases it would be clear, but always? I don’t know, I haven’t been in such a situation, so perhaps I’m just a little naive.

Still I’m not convinced about the “slash up the attacker” approach either.



Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 06, 2004, 10:18:25
Thank you for at least looking at it, and quoting it.




Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 06, 2004, 13:40:46
quote:
Originally posted by Akensai



Still I’m not convinced about the “slash up the attacker” approach either.





well, this is not the first approach we take, let me assure you. [;)]My first approach is usually mediation, but failing that and seeing very much violent action you are forced to use it. Life is too complicated to continueally use one approach, and sometime in your life you will have to use it if you are a "soul healer", or someone who helps people in situations like DK's.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Anonymous on February 06, 2004, 13:53:21
As Bruce Lee said, "Violence is a part of life. You see it every day on  the tv and on the news. You cannot just ignore it or pretend it doesn't exist."


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 06, 2004, 15:45:50
quote:
Why didn't you use the example of, say... driving a spike through someone's head?


Why not? Why not a spike, or a knife, or a sledgehammer or this:

quote:
People under attack have a hard time making life work and have to compromise a tremendous amount of themselves just to make it through the basics of life,…have to fight sometimes to get the energy to get up and in the morning. Then on top of all that, they have to endure the abuse of people wanting to force fit their experiences onto theirs. When you tell them their ideas aren’t working, you’re told no, you’re just being irresponsible, or just being negative, why don’t you put in any effort…as if making life work as best they can wasn’t an effort. Your experiences are the end all, so it should work, and you deliberately put people who are under attack on the defensive to force it to be true. You forcibly challenge them to prove your wrong. The people suffering from psychic/supernatural attack are trying to cope with everyday life survival, they need serious help, not games…investing energy into something that does not work is just more energy depletion. It’s called honoring and respecting the self (how that is negative I have no idea). People who are under attack are expected to prove why they should have their needs respected…how in the hell do you prove that, especially when the consequences are flat out rejected as happening in reality.

Well, forcing individuals to defend themselves on why they should have their experiences and needs respected works as intended…shuts up people suffering attacks real well…can’t move through something or take responsibility without acknowledging it exists. No focus, energy stops flowing, blocks form. Since you can’t defend yourself, you end up playing a game that doesn’t work which causes you to lose more energy (and that is what I call being positive for the hell of being positive). That is what I call positive for the hell of being positive. Tends to tinkle you off after a while (That is the point, God gave us the power to become angry as a pain receptor to warn us when our value is being diminished…that isn’t a negative thing).

Two things just occured to me today...You are looking at the external and seeing different things instead of looking Internally and seeing the same thing (so sorry if I'm talking over your head again). You're self focused and external.
quote:
You are NOT the only one suffering being on this planet! Why should we focus on you?

And since I'm the only one who has and still does yell back, you think I'm only talking about myself in the present. You assume because other people being attacked didn't open their mouths, you didn't do anything wrong, didn't hurt them...Didn't matter...oh the sound of invisible people. No, don't worry, your "help" had a blanket effect on a lot of people being attacked, it shut them up and drove them off. They couldn't cope with being attacked by negs and being attacked by their "help."

Here let me help, since you so obviously need a map to connect the dots...I don't want the spotlight on me. I want the spotlight on you and how your actions affect others. And you, a whole lot of you have been asking for it for a while.
 

Now I wonder how much of this you actually read?





Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 06, 2004, 15:56:37
quote:
It occurs to me that if you go to see a doctor about a problem, and you don't like the diagnosis, you always have the choice to go and see another doctor. Just because the first doctor didn't give good advice doesn't mean he requires your frequent visits back to his office for the purpose of telling him how wrong he was.


This is Robert Bruce's website...people who are under attack come here for help, and the actions of many of you have not only caused more harm than good, it has put them in the position a neg wants and needs for total subjagation...isolated, unvalidated, and unheard.

You don't have to be a doctor or a nurse, but if you can't even act respectfully in a hospital, find another job.




Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Akensai on February 06, 2004, 17:19:43
quote:
This is Robert Bruce's website...people who are under attack come here for help, and the actions of many of you have not only caused more harm than good, it has put them in the position a neg wants and needs for total subjagation...isolated, unvalidated, and unheard.


I have been thinking about this and I think I can see the point Dark Knight wants to make more clearly now.

Perhaps, if you want to help someone you don't go and tell him he is wrong, regardless of him being actually wrong or not. Let’s say a person is wrong, then when he doesn’t accept your advice, but you still want to help, at least be there for him and if you really think he is wrong try to carefully turn him in the right direction.

Still I also think having problems doesn’t mean you can go and insult people and act in disregard of their feelings (as I in my opinion Dark Knight did a few times), even if they don’t give the help you need. (Taken that their intentions are indeed good)

Just point out why you think they are wrong, just talk and work it out.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 06, 2004, 18:16:51
Akensai

There has to be compromise on both sides, not one. The people being attacked have become compromise slaves as one person on this site coined it. It isn't right to do it to anyone, but it is devastating to do it to a person who entire sense of self is being compromised by an invading neg.

Akensai, many people under attack have tried talking and they've been rebuked, made fun of, laughed at, hurt, and ignored. The suffering above all need dignity and their rights (boundaries) reinforced not decimated further by the people trying to "help."

People suffering attacks like these are at their weakest, they need justice and to be listened to. Without it, they are pushed aside unseen and invisible.

This planet is going to reach a point where you can't walk away from everything you don't want to deal with. You can deal with it now, while you still have safety, respect, and freedom, or wait until it's all gone and try then.

Akensai, I can see you are trying to understand, but if you don't listen to people, and it causes them suffering, respect is not owed to you. That is how you learn where the boundaries are, that is the warning sign you need to see and pay attention to. Please think about it.




Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kakkarot on February 06, 2004, 19:10:58
then don't be a slave. combat itself has so many variables to it that asking for help over the net is, obviously, going to get you some advice that's not helpful and even some advice that's counterproductive. most of us here don't know certain specifics or variables in your situation (or the situations of other people who post their problems here) for us to give perfect, 100% accurate techniques and understanding to people whom we've never seen before.

the best we can do is TRY to help them by going over what they've said and trying to come up with a "solution" based on that. of course, what would you tell a scrawny computer nerd to do if the captain of the football team was going to paste him after school? and that's the problem that we have to face when giving advice: the person in need of the advice is at a sore disadvantage and couldn't neccessarily implement our advice anyway. they don't know astral combat, they don't know how to shield, they don't even know how to run.

so any help we do try to give them has to be basic enough for them to be able to try it, but effective enough for them to get results. unfortunately though, there aren't any "universal" things that can be done for all situations, coupled with the fact that there are few easy but effective techniques that work in even most situations let alone against powerful attackers.

we try to help people where we can, but we can't solve their problems. we try to give them not only hope, but also resources, understanding, techniques, and sometimes references to other people/places who might be able to help them further. but seeing as how there is apparently a shortage of people who can project and fight off someone else's negs for them, you have to realize that the people with problems can't rely solely upon the people trying to help.

i don't know if what i've written is dealing with what you are talking about dk, but i guess i'm just confused on what you're trying to say.

~kakkarot


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Ramiel on February 06, 2004, 20:13:21
quote:

YES!!! Another Post for you, but really could have said a little more than that one-liner?




Of course. I just didnt want to input my energy into a thread of negativity. Each page you bicker and fight like school children. I just wanted to state something supportive and positive without bringing anyone down.

Fact of the matter is, you all should look at yourselves and ask yourselves why you're acting the way you are, how you can better yourself via your views and attitudes, and how you can grow from this point.

I'm not going to direct my comments to any specific party. That will just provoke people to start targetting their flames at me, what a waste of time.

Can't we all grow up and act accordingly?


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 06, 2004, 20:35:43
Good points Ramiel.  For myself, as I have already explained I know why I am here.  I own my own intent, and am committed to seeing it through to it's conclusion - whatever that may be.

I think of myself as positive, but I do not shy away from conflict, as I have also shown.  This does not make me a school child, this makes me a school adult. [:D]  I know I have much to gain from this interaction, so I gladly am myself in the service of myself and others.

For now, I will simply let people have their say.  After all, it's only right - right, Ramiel?

I bid you peace.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Ramiel on February 06, 2004, 20:40:34
Unfortunatly you are correct.

Thus all I can hope to do is post messages that work to assist people in changing their perspective, but in the end its up to the individual to want to change.

As long as people can look at themselves and see their flaws (including their actions in this thread) then they may feel a desire to heal them.

I hope I havn't been too vague.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 06, 2004, 20:50:00
Answer me this Ramiel - Why must souls be evolved?  Why didn't God just make them the way he wanted them?

Perhaps if you think about this you will have a little more compassion and less judgement for those of us in the trenches.  [;)]


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 06, 2004, 21:09:21
Kakkarot,

I am not a slave, Kakkarot, I fight the slavery every time I open my mouth. And like it or not, there are not many places to go for refuge when under attack. Who's abandoning who?

No, you're right, each situation has to be taken on it's own merits. And yes you're right, people under attack need to depend on help not be dependent on it. But the depend portion hasn't been an option to many people who come here under severe attack.

People under attack have been put on the defensive and given the responsiblity to prove and justify why their feelings need respect and understanding. This is a devastating thing to do to any human being under any kind of attack, physical, spiritual or otherwise. People don't have to give a reason to feel, they are human that is all they need. And feeling anger, fear, or sorrow is not negative, it is part of moving through the healing process. Everytime feelings are challenged and put on the defensive for unreasonable reasons the healing process comes to a dead stop. Then the person under attack is blamed for not getting over it, and it's not their fault. They're trying to take responsiblity by moving through it and identifying everything and their blocked every step of the way.

Kakkarot, I have sympathy for you confusion, and I don't expect you to get it in a second...I DO expect you to work on it. You are not under attack, you'll probably share the latest "I got over this horrible situation" story with us, the majority of your boundaries are intact (unless you are not sharing something), and your sense of self is there...there is simply no excuse. You're perfectly capable of learning how/where you drop the anvil.

Learning how to navigate boundaries is difficult, isn't it? How would you feel if you were trying to learn how to navigate these boundaries, were under attack, felt in fear of your life, and received no understanding or good support? You aren't going to die if you have to learn how to effectively compromise.




Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Ramiel on February 06, 2004, 21:18:15
quote:
Originally posted by kiauma

Answer me this Ramiel - Why must souls be evolved?  Why didn't God just make them the way he wanted them?

Perhaps if you think about this you will have a little more compassion and less judgement for those of us in the trenches.  [;)]



"He" did make them the way "he" wanted them. By having a basic soul remain imperfect, its evolution - which consisted of acquiring experience, emotions, the enduring of hardships, etc. which would thusly make it perfect. From here it can join with the Creator and the Creator gets what it wanted in the first place. To feel what the previously imperfect soul felt.

I'm not judging - that is not my intent. I'm simply providing opinion based upon what I have read in the hope that some of you will come to terms and stop bickering. It just seems like a waste of time and energy to me. Time and energy that could be placed into other areas.

Finally, please dont presume that I'm not "in the trenches" with you. I have done many things in many lifetimes on this planet, and I am no stranger to adversity and conflict. I just think you should be attacking negs, not one another.

Regards,

-Alex


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 06, 2004, 23:05:19
I believe this discussion has gone on long enough with people attacking each other on both sides. Can't we talk about this like adults now? Attacks on each other gets nobody ANYWHERE. Period. This thread has gone on long enough for me to see that neither side is going to listen to the other side. If we can't be responsible then we can't get anywhere here.

Well now that I said my bit of bickering I think I will get to the subject at hand [;)]

If you are going to help someone then you have to put both feet in. What I am hearing here is that people only want to do it with one foot in, afraid they will get involved. Such people are not fit to help others in PSD. I am not bashing such people as everyone has thier strengths and weaknesses. This is not yours if you cannot put both feet in.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: shedt on February 06, 2004, 23:30:33
I personally disagree with that.

If i need help, it could be simple as just a friend to talk too. maybe somone just needs someone to talk about things with. Maybe someone needs help with a attack.

Please define "help"
and what constitutes how much someone helps too be "putting both feet in"


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 07, 2004, 01:47:59
quote:
Originally posted by shedt

I personally disagree with that.

If i need help, it could be simple as just a friend to talk too. maybe somone just needs someone to talk about things with. Maybe someone needs help with a attack.

Please define "help"
and what constitutes how much someone helps too be "putting both feet in"



I know what you are saying, but I am talking help strictly in the Psychic help department[;)] Putting both feet in means you are going into it without regret and without backing out when it gets tough on you personally.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Anonymous on February 07, 2004, 05:18:22
I agree SpecralDragon, this post has gone on for far too long. The fact of the matter is, no matter how we look at it, there will always be people who pick side A of the argument, and there will always be people who pick side B. The point is, we have to respect each others' views on this and on everything else. I agree with different aspects from each side of the argument. When I deal with psychic attackers that are human, I do not attack the human. I attack the energies behind the human that are perpetuating the attacks. Then I deal with the human by telling them that what they were doing was costing them energy and counterproductive to them and to everyone around them. In short, lately, when I am dealing with a human attacker and their victim, I try to help both. It's only fair. When we punish people in our cour systems, the goal is to take them out of society, and help them become a productive member of society. However, jail does not always do this, and not every punishment works this way. Some people simply don't realize the connections behind certain things, and it makes them act in ways that can be harmful to others. Not everyone thinks logically or rationally, and that's the REAL enemy behind all of this. Please consider that. Spectral is right. Flaming and bashing solves nothing. I have noticed that such things are on the rise on this forum, and that's unfortunate. I will not accuse someone of flaming or bashing; however, if it is necessary, then I'll bring it to their attention via a private message out of respect for them, and I will attempt to explain my opinion to them in a logical, rational, coherent manner. When you deal with people who are causing problems, you've got to look at things from their perspective and understand where they're coming from. This can be very difficult with people or other beings who are unwilling to share their view with you. So sometimes you've got to take certain actions that might make them more willing. This is the hard part. This is right about where the line between unnecessary force or violence meets necessary actions. Maybe there isn't a line at all, but a gradient. Maybe the line moves, depending on the situation.

A certain member actually PMed me yesterday or today and said that it was people like me causing the negativity on the forum to be on the rise. Now, to me that felt like this person was pointing a finger at me and putting blame on me as well as others. What is this accomplishing? I was and am not angry, but I am curious as to what their goal might be. I certainly did not see why I would be one of the people responsible, so I asked the person why they thought this. They did not explain themselves to me at all, at least not in a way that I was able to understand, but I explained my views to them, and I am hoping that they will reply with an explanation behind their points. I have tried to respect the views of others as best I can, and as much as my belief system will allow. And if it won't allow, then I seek to refine it so that it will. But sometimes those answers can't be found on a forum. They have to be found in life.

Just my thoughts.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kakkarot on February 07, 2004, 05:26:08
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight

People under attack have been put on the defensive and given the responsiblity to prove and justify why their feelings need respect and understanding.
ok, now i understand that part :) thank you. i'm not confused about it anymore

yes that does happen, sadly, where a person is told that perhaps the affliction isn't happening. but sometimes the question about whether the person is sure it's a metaphysical ailment needs to be asked because it is good for a potential helper to know whether an ailment is physical or metaphysical in nature. that simple differentiation can mean vastly different types of help for the person afflicted. and sadly, it is possible for a person to misdiagnos a physical affliction as a metaphysical one and get the wrong treatment just as there are many cases out there where people believe they are being physically afflicted by something when in reality it is metaphysical.

doctors (north american doctors, the ones who rely upon drugs and whatnot) usually can do little to help metaphysical conditions, despite (possibly) having the best intentions in the world for their patients. and in the same way, a metaphysical practicioner can do little to help a physical condition by prescribing metaphysical "cures". (with the exception of some types of instances where the physical body can be used to heal the energy body and vice versa). but if a person who is having neurological problems comes on here and says they are hearing voices and so believe they are being possessed, and we give them all the banishing rituals in the world it's not likely going to help them (unless they merely needed a placebo).

however, you are definatly right in that people who come here should NOT be made to feel like what they are going through isn't happening. i definately agree with that. but they also need the proper methods of help, which we can't always give them.

i'd like to think that i've always posted objective posts which tried to help people understand that there could be alternate explainations to some of the more obscure/vague posts that people have made, but i realize i'm human and i make mistakes and i am a jerk at times [xx(]. (and yes i also realize that i'm not the only one who could be doing this, but i don't like to point fingers, so i won't).

but anyway, no i'm not going to bore you with my problems. i rarely have bothered anyone with them and don't believe that will ever change [|)].

thank you darkknight, for your time in reading my posts and for your time in making yours [:)]. i'm going to withdraw from this conversation now since i've got nothing more to say (unless there is something about my post that is confusing or that you would like clarified)

~kakkarot


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 07, 2004, 10:38:56
quote:
yes that does happen, sadly, where a person is told that perhaps the affliction isn't happening. but sometimes the question about whether the person is sure it's a metaphysical ailment needs to be asked because it is good for a potential helper to know whether an ailment is physical or metaphysical in nature. that simple differentiation can mean vastly different types of help for the person afflicted. and sadly, it is possible for a person to misdiagnos a physical affliction as a metaphysical one and get the wrong treatment just as there are many cases out there where people believe they are being physically afflicted by something when in reality it is metaphysical.


It's a little more than that, Kakkarot, but thank you for at least listening.

Kakkarot, this is more than not believing in what a person is going through...kakkarot, people under attack have been given advice and if it didn't work in their case, they were blamed for it not working. I recommend blessed ritual salt bathes, but even I don't have the ego to believe if it doesn't work in a particular person's case it's because they're negative or not trying. People under attack that I have been speaking to privately have been doing things that do not work or help their situations just to be "accepted by the group." Just so they don't feel alone...but in actuality it's the worst kind of loneliness there is...being surrounded by people and utterly alone.  Others were too weak to pretend, they had already compromised too much, so they left, and they really needed help and support...God only knows what happened to them. If a person dies and no one hears the scream did he/she really die? You guys only heard me screaming so you thought I was only talking about myself (it's just past tense rhetoric, I am fine now, really, I'll just keep saying it)?!

Kakkarot, you get the things you have in life because of compromise. You may not feel the effects of the compromise because you live in a "world" where there is cooperation, respect, and compromise between people to lessen the load. The compromise made to get what you want isn't painful or is neglibly so. When a person gets no cooperation or respect, the only person they have to compromise with is themselves (self). You literally have to compromise whole parts of yourself to get what you need to survive. Do you understand what that means? It means you're in a situation where you can't walk away from anything because you have to do everything yourself. That kind of compromise is extremely painful, destructive of self, and frightening...and then they're being attacked on top of it. You don't get better slowly over time because what you're doing is essentially cannabalising yourself.

I didn't start getting seriously better until I got that help, cooperation, and compromise because I didn't have to compromise all of myself anymore to get what I needed. I could use that freer portion for other things, like enjoying life, enjoying people, seeing more of the positive.

Kakkarot, people forced in a position to compromise their self to survive (not even live, survive) can't see the positive because there is nothing positive about being forced to live that way. You walk around making affirmations and see that everything else around you has value except you,...so you continue to say the mantras all the fluffy bunny people want you say, all the while dying slowly and painfully inside...and there is total awareness every waking second of everything inside you which dies...you have to look at to compromise it. Everything a neg wants in a subject they get when people in pain are treated this way.

One year ago this month I was in the middle of the download. On Feb 13, 2003 I was fired from my job because the channeling was so severe I was muttering to myself, would stare out into space for long hours, and could not function or interact with others at all. I was taken into protective custody with my parents and watched as they and the family dog were channeled. I'd hear in my head, "We'll make sure they send you to the hospital, [Dark Knight], we'll make sure you never get out." I had no idea what the hell was happening to me. At one point I walked out to the nearby lake and looked at all the icebergs and thought I could walk out there and end it (and ending meant no life beyond the body or being ripped to shreads by whatever was one my case, anything to end it). I could've walked out there and no one would have found my body till the spring. I would've been ruled a suicide and no one would have known what had actually happened to me.

How many people has this happened to, and how many people really needing help came to this site on their last legs only to be driven away? This argument is petty but the suffering are not. This has to stop.

And hell, if not even Robert Bruce's account is believed, what hope do people under attack have? Sceptics won't believe until it is their skin. We can't cannabalise ourselves like this.


Kakkarot, read ALL of this, please![8)]











Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Akensai on February 07, 2004, 11:14:12
That was a beautiful post Dark Knight, perfectly clear, thank you!


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Nay on February 07, 2004, 16:49:06
I stopped responding several posts ago, but of course I now need to say more.

Many people have read this thread and I think, come away with differences of opinions.  Is that so bad?  I myself have that voice that tells me...uh, something just isn't right.  I believe in negs even though it may seem that I don't, but to what extent do I allow myself to believe their strength and limits.

 
quote:
One year ago this month I was in the middle of the download. On Feb 13, 2003 I was fired from my job because the channeling was so severe I was muttering to myself, would stare out into space for long hours, and could not function or interact with others at all. I was taken into protective custody with my parents and watched as they and the family dog were channeled. I'd hear in my head, "We'll make sure they send you to the hospital, [Dark Knight], we'll make sure you never get out." I had no idea what the hell was happening to me. At one point I walked out to the nearby lake and looked at all the icebergs and thought I could walk out there and end it (and ending meant no life beyond the body or being ripped to shreads by whatever was one my case, anything to end it). I could've walked out there and no one would have found my body till the spring. I would've been ruled a suicide and no one would have known what had actually happened to me.
To try and explain what I mean, I must use DK as a example...tis not flaming and if it seems to be, then I am sure I will get a PM from Kakkarot [;)] yet I have no problem what so ever you calling me what you think I am, right here..in the open.

Before you, Dk even posted this, I had questioned myself how you could hold down a job and thought you couldn't.  I wonder had I voiced my opinion before you stated it as a fact, would I have been critized for being uncaring and attacking you?  Or would you have accepted my statement with open arms and said. "Nay, you are so right, I couldn't hold down a job"..  To be honest, in my opinion I think you would have went off on me.  And that is where opinions come in.

I believe you think you are being attacked by some evil force.  But the statement I quoted you saying..just doesn't sound like a neg to me.  For you to understand what I am trying to say, I guess I need to tell you what I think negs are capable of and where they are capable of doing it.

I think negs reside in the astral and yes they can drain you and make you feel tired while in the physical. (a after affect if you will)  But I don't think they are near strong enough to reach us while we are in the physical, standing next to a lake or at work, whispering things in our head.  That to me is a whole new subject.  Of course this is just my opinion and not trying to make you believe.  I was trying to explain this a long time ago, when you, DK..just kept saying I was flapping my lips.  I was trying to help you see in a different view, that you are the one giving (the voice) power....I was hoping it would help.  Help give you the power over it, but you were not going to have any of that.  

I have never found it easy to express what my thoughts are...and I tend to do it with humor.  I am willing to say, I got frustrated..VERY.  Because I truly was trying to help and you pretty much said I was unworthy and a dumb***.

Hehehehe..now I have no idea why I even started writing this post..[:P]  I guess everyone does want to be heard and understood.  I had the feeling that when some people were saying flaming was going on, I was the one they were referring to. (guilty conscious perhaps?)  I just can't figure out why everyone is so cryptic in saying so.  As long as you don't call me names, I am very cool with opinions and will try and see it in a different light, but I don't have to agree with it.[;)]

I am glad DK, that you are no longer experiencing these things.  Perhaps now, we can go on with life and speak of nicer things?  

The gifts I wish to give you
are my deepest love,
the safety of truth,
the wisdom of the universe
and the reality of God.

With these four things, nothing will deter you.
You will follow your hearts
swiftly to your destination,
which is Home.

I know there is confusion and doubt
and what appears to be chaos.
Can you see
that beneath these surface shadows
there is eternal Light?

This earth plane
is neither the beginning nor the end
of your existence.
It is simply a step, a schoolroom.

My friends, let me impress upon you
how solidly
you are planted in eternity,
how brilliantly
you can shine in your own physical world,
how possible
it all is,
how beautifully
the Plan is designed.

In God's Plan no soul is alone.
No soul is ever lost.

Emmanuel....


Nay.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: shedt on February 07, 2004, 22:42:20
yes, if someone tells you they do not agree with you then you should not attack them. that is what i see here. i can understand if someone is hurt and looking for help, but if i don't agree too what the problem is, the person having the problem should not attack me for it. that is what i percieve here. though i may be wrong, and i am sorry if i am. but please, do not attack me here for having a different point of view


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Mick on February 08, 2004, 14:03:03
quote:
Originally posted by Nay

I myself have that voice that tells me...uh, something just isn't right.  I believe in negs even though it may seem that I don't, but to what extent do I allow myself to believe their strength and limits.

...

For you to understand what I am trying to say, I guess I need to tell you what I think negs are capable of and where they are capable of doing it.
I think negs reside in the astral and yes they can drain you and make you feel tired while in the physical. (a after affect if you will)  But I don't think they are near strong enough to reach us while we are in the physical, standing next to a lake or at work, whispering things in our head.  That to me is a whole new subject.  Of course this is just my opinion and not trying to make you believe.  


Is this not the problem that you are judging people by what you believe, if I read you correctly then if someone experiences something outside of your belief then due to your belief you tell them you tell them that it is likely self imposed!

I don't doubt and I have said here that problems can be self imposed, they can also result from medical conditions plus for many here that have more experience they are seen as part of the flora and fauna of our environment.

 
quote:

I was trying to explain this a long time ago, when you, DK..just kept saying I was flapping my lips.  I was trying to help you see in a different view, that you are the one giving (the voice) power....I was hoping it would help.  Help give you the power over it, but you were not going to have any of that.  


This is all well and good if this is the actual cause, but where someone has tried this route and found it wanting for whatever reason then other support is called for, this includes accepting that a person under some duress may not have the initial strengths to simply proclaim intent to fix a problem or indeed think coherently about implementing self based solutions. In my opinion there may be a need to give someone breathing space so that they can restore their strengths and resolution of mind in order to implement longer term personal solutions. I think that the recent postings by Kakkarot more than adequately outlines what I want to say so won't bore further.

The thread at http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10342 I think is giving a working example of where a person outlines a situation that fits the remit of the forum and many are coming in to question, analyse and give feedback. As yet no one had rolled out the fixed ideology answers so there is no bickering leaving space for further investigation and support.

I would also remind readers that Dark some time ago proposed that an alternate forum be established simply for the discussion of identifying types of so called attackers and methods for dealing with them for the purpose of better understanding and support, this generated some support at the time but no obvious reaction nor support from the moderators. Dark has also called for making some of the comments made here including some of those that advocate the self belief/discipline methods sticky but to date none have been made so. Lastly Dark is often the first to respond to new requests for help by providing mutual support and understanding plus links to what she beliefs are useful texts. I state this to balance a degree of negative commentary made against Dark recently some of which I can concur with as I have received some snipes from her but I found that by addressing and explaining my point of view and/or language used directly using email or PM fixed it.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Sam on February 08, 2004, 16:53:53
Standing outside moments ago, savouring a cancer inducing cigarette, I paced back and forth trying to disseminate the arguments which have appeared in this discussion in the week I've been out of town.  The idea that a thread could possibly go on for "too long" I find to be appaling.  Just when people are getting personal and actually working out their differences, people start backing out because for some reason they're unable to confront whatever changes they may need to make in their ideology to accept the other side's viewpoint, or worse still they let pride get in the way of acceptance.

I find it interesting and I wonder why people see that they are being attacked when someone openly and honestly states what they think.  I wish I could post quotes but a virus has screwed up my system and copy/paste doesn't work!  I'll have to invent a situation which is typical of the common statement/response mechanisms at work in this debate.

person 1 : I have an opinion and this is what it is...
person 2 : I disagree with your opinion because it is naive to believe (whatever)
person 1 : How dare you call my niave, I'm offended, you are just an insulting person
person 2 : I am not an insulting person, your attitude reflects your naivety
person 1 : see!  another example of your insulting attitude!  I refuse to discuss this issue with you!

The point I'm trying to make is this debate keeps on going off track with people criticising peoples means of getting their point across.  People need to mature beyond the point of taking offense at a person's attitude in a conversation.  If people endlessly criticise one another's attitudes the point gets lost in a mess of opinionated garbage that doesn't help anybody.  Now here I am sounding like a hippocrite because I am in effect giving a blanket statement that criticises many people's attitudes.  The effect I'm trying to achieve is that certain people stop trying to make people have the same "manners" so that some invisible line isn't crossed that leads to the sacred "manners" being breached causing someone to be offensive.  Someone sinking in quicksand screaming out for help might say "SOMEBODY PLEASE F***ING HELP ME FOR F***S SAKE!" and then the "good mannered" people would say "No, I refuse to drag such a foul mouthed reprobate from the clutches of certain death, however if you were to have better manners..."  "WELL F***YOU THEN!" "Well, I guess I just can't help you I'm afraid.  Tiddly-pop." "F***! (gurgle, swallow, suffocate, die)"

I have read this entire post, and one thing stands out like a sore thumb.  It is difficult to communicate effectively with some vocally well equipped and conversationally cunning people here (i.e. those who ignore the point of a persons post, picking on a small detail such as the manner in which the point was made, thus diverting the flow of conversation, thus avoiding the need to use logic to debate your own point of view lest your logic be proven inferior, hoping to use a personality flaw in your logical opponent to get public opinion weighed against them thus negating the need for rational argument because obviously their attitudes are so flawed they are unreasonable and need to be ostricised etc etc)

I'm refusing to take sides because this isn't my argument, but I would like to see the people on each side reach an agreement rather than say its just too hard lets agree to differ.  Only the problem if you agree to differ is that every time the subject in question crops up, the same arguments start being recycled like before.

Blah blah blah who cares its just another opinion.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Sam on February 08, 2004, 17:01:13
Just a suggestion, maybe you guys should talk about which part of each others argument you actually agree with.  That would certainly go a long way towards clearing the air for some more reasonable discussion.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Sam on February 08, 2004, 17:11:04
sorry I just re-re-read the last few posts, it seems things are heading in a positive way already.  My apologies if my criticisms missed the mark by a few posts.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: James S on February 08, 2004, 21:59:09
quote:
Originally posted by Mick
I would also remind readers that Dark some time ago proposed that an alternate forum be established simply for the discussion of identifying types of so called attackers and methods for dealing with them for the purpose of better understanding and support, this generated some support at the time but no obvious reaction nor support from the moderators. Dark has also called for making some of the comments made here including some of those that advocate the self belief/discipline methods sticky but to date none have been made so. Lastly Dark is often the first to respond to new requests for help by providing mutual support and understanding plus links to what she beliefs are useful texts. I state this to balance a degree of negative commentary made against Dark recently some of which I can concur with as I have received some snipes from her but I found that by addressing and explaining my point of view and/or language used directly using email or PM fixed it.


Hi Mick,

The reason DK's suggestion got no reaction from the moderators or admin is because what she wanted already exists. Adrian and Robert started the PSD forum for the purpose of discussing the various aspects and mechanics of neg attacks and methods of treatment.

If you look back through the history of this forum you will see that many have gained much benefit and knowledge from it's existance. This forum is made no less valid because of people who remain sceptical and wish to suggest more "scientific" approaches. Robert Bruce himself mentioned in one post early on in the piece that when dealing with these kinds of issues, all possibilities must be taken into account.

To all,

It must be said that peoples adherence to extreme views in either direction tend to cause more harm than they do good. Moderators have already come down hard on people in the past who have criticised other members by telling them they're crazy and really need to see a psychiatrist.

Personal attacks will not be tolerated from anyone, no matter what their situation or opinion. This is no less true for this forum than it is for any other.

With that in mind let us please try to continue with thoughts to productive discussions. Lets face it, Nobody here is really close to knowing all there is to know about negs, psychic attacks or mental afflictions. We all have room to learn. If we start banding together rather than polarising into factions, this will be achieved much more easily.

Kind regards,
James.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Edi on February 09, 2004, 01:06:52
Hey,

I won't have access to the internet next week so before I leave I'd like to put forth a further channeling by my guide Perena:



"There have been posts where it was referred to that nobody should be blamed for whatever attacks he is enduring. Everyone will agree upon this; there is no point in blaming and it does no good. The question is not whether a person has caused their situation by intentionally or unintentionally doing something 'wrong'. The question is how to get out of it efficiently and with a lasting effect, which means that they won't slip into it again easily. Many solutions and cures that seem to bring temporary relief of attacks do not adress the core of the problem.

Labelling such things "personal shortcomings" is not justified. As it has been mentioned, there are always situations where you have to draw back and retract in order to cope. You cannot always do much about those circumstances, and nobody is expected to be perfect in dealing with them. But what is essential in healing such issues AND curing the psychic 'attacks' that are anchored on them (yes, they always need a 'weak point') is to recognize what happened and how it influences your (re-)actions now. This is intelligible when there have been major problems in a person's life, during childhood etc., and those things can be worked through with your own effort, and if that's not feasible then with help from others, including professionals.

Now there doesn't always have to be a deep psychological wound which leaves you vulnerable to a psychic 'attack'. The other case would be where a new influence comes into your life (e.g. beginning to meditate, or a spirit suddenly seeking to influence you) and at some point you notice that something is just not right and things begin to get odd. In this case too, it's not expected that you know everything in advance and are able to avoid and balance every possible 'problem' that could come up. That's the way it is in life, you experience lots of new things and normally you're able to deal with that - that's common sense along with natural mechanisms that inform you if something is going wrong, and what to do about it.

When things go wrong though and you suddenly see yourself faced with something you can only call a 'psychic attack' - what to do about it? Approaches like rituals, shielding, prayers and all those things often seem to work. But what remains is the point that the underlying cause was not addressed at all that way. The argument of 'temporary relief in order to get room for breathing' is not perfectly valid, because you then often block and shut away those very things that should be addressed! By this you eventually can build up some sort of artificial defense, painfully and with much effort, but those very things you fear and push away then are exactly what should be examined.

The guides can intervene and take care of a psychic 'attack' problem, but such things can only be arranged if at the same time the person has the will to embrace and to understand things, namely such issues as: conditioning imposed by the social milieu, strong parental influence or domination, religious conditioning, insecurities in getting on with people - whatever is relevant to that person, whatever strong blocks or fears there are. They can be subtle or not, but how the problem manifests points to what it is.

What I want to point out here, also as a ground for new discussion:

1) You can have control over what happens to you - it can be as easy as talking to 'negs', and eiter trying to help and understand, or to clearly refuse permission to interact with you.
2) The guides can help to dissolve a psychic 'attack' situation, but it depends upon the will of the person.
3) Psychic 'attacks' have to focus and attach on 'weak points' - this means it is in your power to get out of a situation, not by 'attacking' but by evolving.

It would be good to examine cases where people have been cured from psychic 'attacks', and what exactly the cure turned out to be. There needs to come a general understanding of how those things work, a general 'common sense' about it."




That's it; we haven't been covering all possible interpretations of what's said here and it's not possible to address more than a part of the whole picture in one post, but it looks like this thread has evolved to the point where things can be discussed... there's nothing to add to what James said, but I just quote him again:

quote:
[...] let us please try to continue with thoughts to productive discussions. Lets face it, Nobody here is really close to knowing all there is to know about negs, psychic attacks or mental afflictions. We all have room to learn. If we start banding together rather than polarising into factions, this will be achieved much more easily.


cya,
  Edi


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 09, 2004, 08:57:45
Nay,

My attackers are people (human and ET...I consider ET non-terrestrial people). I've had things inserted inside me resmebling the gollum creature from Lord of the Rings only black and slimey doing everything to me from sucking away my energy to sucking on my vagina, try putting up with that while you're at work. Nay, God defines you, you don't define God.

Tayesin, Spectral Dragon, Enderwiggin, and one more person on this forum (in this thread) have had encounters and similar experiences with my perp unless you're about to tell us we're all suffering from the same thing.

quote:
Many people have read this thread and I think, come away with differences of opinions. Is that so bad?

You can have freedom of opinion but responsibility goes along with it. You are not free from responsiblity if what you are doing causes some of the things I have described above,...which I have now repeated several times. And quite frankly, people under attack and people like me are not conspiracy theories. What we go through every day is not a theory or an opinion. What we have to sacrifice to stay alive is neither theory nor opinion. It's like asking someone who has a tumor do you mind if we theorize about it being cancer or not, but doing little else. The tumor starts to spread, and the theorizing continues...well yes, I'd say some harm is being done here.

You gotta learn how to listen to people. Several times throughout this thread, people (and myself) have explained the consequences in several different ways, explained how your actions are potentially hurting people under attack, and we're still contradicted and asked, "Why is it so bad." Because you have to respect people's needs, and when you don't respect people who are hanging by a life and death thread after you're repeatedly told to stop, you shouldn't be surprised to be on the receiving end of retaliation...the consequences a person under attack receives because of you actions are immediate, now, and powerful. It's either retaliate or let go of the thread and most people do not want to let go.

You can't change a situation because you don't like the consequences


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 09, 2004, 09:29:53
I have read of your experiences with interest DK.  They sound disturbingly like schizophrenic experiences.  You may want to investigate that.

We've seen many viewpoints, ranging from the 'It is your responsibility to see things my way' to 'We MUST all come to a consensus' to 'We must simply accept everyone's view' to all shades in between.

What is the truth?   How can we all be so passionate for our own viewpoint - whether that viewpoint is exclusive or one of acceptance?

Dictionary.com defines universe as:  All matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole.

Uni as a prefix means 'single', and verse as a root word means 'composition'.  And so we think the universe is - a single experience which we all share and for which it must be the same for everyone.  But is it?

Everything I've seen in this thread and many things I have seen in my life and many things I have experienced in AP tell me this is really an amalgamous composition as much as a single composition.

Personally, I've suspected for a long time that the universe may actually be bigger than I am.   The multiplicity of views tells me this.  The multiplicity of religions tells me this.

It seems there are as many ideas about the reality of the universe as there are people.  As such, might each view then be more definitevely called a monoverse - the single view of reality within a reality?

Being as psychic experience is so personal, wouldn't this go a long way in explaining WHY even people of vast psychic and AP experience can differ so profoundly in their explanation of it?

I mean come on, we all want to say that we know 'reality' - but this thread is a great example of just how hollow that claim can be.   And when our claim to ultimate reality is threatened... hooo-boy!   That is when you start seeing, 'My monoverse is bigger than your monoverse, and it's gonna whip your butt!'  LOL

I am the universe, and I am insignificant.  I am my reality, and it is just my reality in multiple realities.   Anyone who claims more or less is (by this explanation) just as right.  [;)]


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 09, 2004, 09:43:49
Shall I repeat for those who do not know how to read:

 
quote:
Tayesin, Spectral Dragon, Enderwiggin, and one more person on this forum (in this thread) have had encounters and similar experiences with my perp unless you're about to tell us we're all suffering from the same thing.




Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 09, 2004, 09:48:53
READ my posts DK.  I am not doubting you are having this experience.

The root issue of this thread is why you are experiencing this, though I agree with Edi that it is counter productive to make a case on that from one person's experience.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Sam on February 09, 2004, 10:30:45
quote:
I have read of your experiences with interest DK. They sound disturbingly like schizophrenic experiences. You may want to investigate that.


I'm sure she already has.  Hey, most people think astral projection and conversations with spirits are schizophrenic experiences.  Who's to say DK isn't already on the ball as far as that sort of thing is concerned.  Sure, we all need a certain degree of evidence before we start believing something for ourselves but many people have been conditioned to pass any sort of "conspiracy" off as a skizophrenic problem that needs urgent attention.  Theres plenty of movies, jokes and references to conspiracy theories that desensitise the general population to the notion that the big people could possibly play mind games with the little people.  Couple that with the popular belief that you are the orchestrator of your own life and bam, you've closed your mind to a new possibility.

I think
 
quote:
I mean come on, we all want to say that we know 'reality' - but this thread is a great example of just how hollow that claim can be. And when our claim to ultimate reality is threatened... hooo-boy! That is when you start seeing, 'My monoverse is bigger than your monoverse, and it's gonna whip your butt!' LOL

made perfect sense.  Nobody can claim to know everything that was, is and will be, but you are naive in thinking that everyones view is just as right.  It may feel right to the person experiencing their subjective reality, and they may argue that their view is right until they're blue in the face.  But then they act shocked and surprised when something from the objective reality, that is the "real" world/universe/whatever doesn't seem to correlate with their subjective view.  They may respond to the new situation by trying to twist their view to include the new phenomena, or they may have to disintegrate a few of their values and build a new system from the ground up, or they may just go insane and think they've become skizophrenic.  

Try to diagramatically visualise the universe as a circle, with the inside of the circle labled as "Reality" and the outside of the circle being "Delusion".  Everyone's perception is also a circle which overlaps to a varying degree both reality and delusion.  Some people are more deluded than others, some people are more aware than others.  Its a falsehood to claim that everyone's view is as correct as everyone elses, but that doesn't mean I'm saying its not correct for everyone to have their own view, no matter how deluded.  If that is what you meant by your last comment then I apologise for misunderstanding your meaning.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 09, 2004, 10:41:30
DK, I would advise against going too graphic here, after all you don't know what youngster may be viewing this thread[:O]

Kiauma I know your concerns that this might not be what it seems to be, but I have a few years with helping people out. I have dealt with my own thought forms before, I have helped people with thier own, I have helped people with neg problems, and I have helped a very few people who's abilities were going out of control. What this attacker is doing is using DK's inner demons to get inside her head. I have spotted people who were living out their fantasies, I have also spotted people who were faking these experiences just for thier own personal amusement or because they wanted attention.

DK does not show signs of being sick in the head, though like everyone else she has her own personal (and she will be one to admit this herself. You can verify this if you want DK.) Demons to deal with. Such Inner conflict is used by negs and people to get inside the victims head and cause harm and fear (which some negs feed on)This is what Myself, Ender, Tay, and a few other people have noticed. None of us are inexperienced in these matters, and all of us have dealt with these things in one form or another.

Each of us, in our own rightfull mind, has tested one another for skill, clarity of vision, and just plain out to make sure we are not fakes. I can assure you that Ender and Tay are not fakers living out a fantasy, as we take our work very seriously despite our sometimes light mood(Which we do to relieve pressure)

quote:

Originaly posted by Edi
What I want to point out here, also as a ground for new discussion:

1) You can have control over what happens to you - it can be as easy as talking to 'negs', and eiter trying to help and understand, or to clearly refuse permission to interact with you.
2) The guides can help to dissolve a psychic 'attack' situation, but it depends upon the will of the person.
3) Psychic 'attacks' have to focus and attach on 'weak points' - this means it is in your power to get out of a situation, not by 'attacking' but by evolving.



These are very valid points that I agree need to be looked upon. It is possible to control a situation involving a psychic attack, especially if dealing with an attack involving something in your own body. You should be master of yourself, so anything getting inside should have a solution. This is sometimes a hard idea to grasp and not always the easiest to exploit.

Another way to put #3 That a good friend of mine showed me is that an attacker must have a "door" to go through in order to attack, unless dealing with something more powerfull than yourself which in all probability isn't going to happen, to stop an attack you need to take control of the "door" so you need to shove the attacker out of yourself and close the door, and pehaps use the advantage to find more doors that the attacker can find for you for you to close. In this way you can balance yourself and thus "evolve."


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 09, 2004, 11:35:14
"Such Inner conflict is used by negs and people to get inside the victims head and cause harm and fear"

Which is part of what I have been saying all along.

And thank you for your view too, Sam.



Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Mick on February 09, 2004, 12:38:34
quote:
Originally posted by James S

Hi Mick,

The reason DK's suggestion got no reaction from the moderators or admin is because what she wanted already exists. Adrian and Robert started the PSD forum for the purpose of discussing the various aspects and mechanics of neg attacks and methods of treatment.


That is fair enough, but of course this thinking could have been stated at the time when some thought that there was a need for a forum where a more investigative approach could be pursued.
But as I said I mentioned those points with the intention to balance out the possible negativity of some comments being made.

 
quote:

If you look back through the history of this forum you will see that many have gained much benefit and knowledge from it's existance. This forum is made no less valid because of people who remain sceptical and wish to suggest more "scientific" approaches. Robert Bruce himself mentioned in one post early on in the piece that when dealing with these kinds of issues, all possibilities must be taken into account.


Agreed, it is the narrow band thinking of some ideologies that I also have a problem with rather than open discussion. I have worked with Robert in the past and we encountered a mixed bag requiring that all options be considered.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Nay on February 09, 2004, 14:23:27
Dk,
I do want to ask, do you experience your things while in the astral?
If that is the case you seem to be very proficient in AP'ing.  I have been meditating for 15+yrs, and having OOBE's for almost as long, even though I had no idea what they were back then.  They weren't conscious but they certaintly were real non the less.  Now I can consciously AP and I have had a few phasings, but still working on making that one conscious.[;)] Wanted to give a bit of background on me, so you wouldn't think I was just talking out the side of my neck.

I can't believe I had forgotten about a experience that happened to me, until I read Edi's new post. (goes to show ya how much it stayed with me [:P])

I projected into a house, that had those windows that cover the whole wall.  Very beautiful place, with the ocean beyond the windows.  I was standing there and saw a man on the other side of the window.  I felt a bit apprehensive but nothing I was going to dwell on.  Then next thing I know, he is in the room standing infront of me.  He pushed me down on a ottoman and was on top of me,holding my arms down above my head.  I struggled but couldn't get him off, he then brought his face down to mine, and I thought he was going to try and kiss me, but instead he started to let his spit drool into my mouth.  Yeah, that was really gross, would have much preferred the kiss. [^]  Well, I was getting worried and frankly grossed out and just said out loud. "God will help me"  and poof, he melted away.

Strange that I haven't thought about that in months.  Maybe that is the key, stop giving it life with the power of your thoughts.  I also had something sucking on my shoulder once in the Astral, and there was a mark on my arm while in the Astral, but once I came back to my physical, there wasn't anything.  Once again, I haven't thought about these experiences for months.  I always just went on with my hum-drum life.
Now onto commenting on your last post.


quote:
Nay,

My attackers are people (human and ET...I consider ET non-terrestrial people). I've had things inserted inside me resmebling the gollum creature from Lord of the Rings only black and slimey doing everything to me from sucking away my energy to sucking on my vagina, try putting up with that while you're at work. Nay, God defines you, you don't define God.

Tayesin, Spectral Dragon, Enderwiggin, and one more person on this forum (in this thread) have had encounters and similar experiences with my perp unless you're about to tell us we're all suffering from the same thing.
I have no idea what ya'll are experiencing,and at this point does it really matter?  Nothing I say will be right..[:(!] you keep throwing up those names like some kind of sword.  Why hasn't Tayesin jumped on the band wagon, why isn't he here defending you, as SD and Enderwiggin are?

 
quote:
You can have freedom of opinion but responsibility goes along with it. You are not free from responsiblity if what you are doing causes some of the things I have described above,...which I have now repeated several times. And quite frankly, people under attack and people like me are not conspiracy theories. What we go through every day is not a theory or an opinion. What we have to sacrifice to stay alive is neither theory nor opinion. It's like asking someone who has a tumor do you mind if we theorize about it being cancer or not, but doing little else. The tumor starts to spread, and the theorizing continues...well yes, I'd say some harm is being done here.

Ok, let me get this straight...You are saying I am causing these things to happen to you, just because I do not take everything you say to be the gospel truth?  And if this is the case, then I am about to get pretty ticked, because you have no right, to push some guilt trip on me.  Maybe I shouldn't say gospel truth..that is a bit harsh.  It just I have had lots of projections with only a few negative outcomes and as you read, I put those out of my mind almost the same moment they happened.  Maybe the negs just know that I will not play their games, and stopped trying to make me play.  

 
quote:
You gotta learn how to listen to people. Several times throughout this thread, people (and myself) have explained the consequences in several different ways, explained how your actions are potentially hurting people under attack, and we're still contradicted and asked, "Why is it so bad." Because you have to respect people's needs, and when you don't respect people who are hanging by a life and death thread after you're repeatedly told to stop, you shouldn't be surprised to be on the receiving end of retaliation...the consequences a person under attack receives because of you actions are immediate, now, and powerful. It's either retaliate or let go of the thread and most people do not want to let go.

You can't change a situation because you don't like the consequences
I do listen to people, thanks.  If you mean I don't respect people, because I have a difference of opinion well...that is your opinion.  I can handle retaliation, and have been through out this thread.  I agree it seems we can't let this thread go..wow..we just agreed on something!  Break out the Champange!

It's strange that mention of negs really didn't start up until Robert wrote his Psychic Defense.  Now it seems to be in full swing.  I do have a problem with that, because it scares the new people that come here in hopes of learning how to Astral Project. No way to tell how many people have come to the forums and read about all these evil things and now will never know that the astral can be a very beautiful experience.  

Nay


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Nagual on February 09, 2004, 15:30:50
quote:
... You assume because other people being attacked didn't open their mouths, you didn't do anything wrong, didn't hurt them...Didn't matter...oh the sound of invisible people. No, don't worry, your "help" had a blanket effect on a lot of people being attacked, it shut them up and drove them off. They couldn't cope with being attacked by negs and being attacked by their "help."

Hum... which help am I supposed to have done...?  Please, tell me because I can't remember helping anyone about psychic attacks...  For one reason, I have no idea how I could help since I know almost nothing about attacks mechanisms.  I never helped you.  I read your posts, asked a few questions, saw your aggressive attitude and decided to just let others take care of you.
quote:
Here let me help, since you so obviously need a map to connect the dots...I don't want the spotlight on me. I want the spotlight on you and how your actions affect others. And you, a whole lot of you have been asking for it for a while.  Now I wonder how much of this you actually read?

How ironic!  Very good advice...  that you should follow too!  [|)]
Go read again my posts.  If you find one where I tried to help you about your attacks, I will publicly apologize.

Going back to the "your help sucks, get lost" attitude...  If you don't like some of the help you receive; why not just ignore it?  Why not pretend you tried it and it help and just forget about it?  Take what works and drop what does not work.  No big deal.  Why do you have to yell and insult people like that?  I agree that people should be more or less careful (depending on the gravity) about trying to help people...  But at worse, you should expain to them why blablabla, or ignore them; not attack them verbaly.

Next time you ask for help, mention that anyone whose help will end up not working should be prepared to be crucified for even trying to help.

Again, I never said you're lying or faking or doing it wrong or whatever...  The only thing I say is that, from all the posts I read, you are unecessarily rude/agressive.

And I am also happy that your problems are over so now we can just forget all this mess and go back to "friendly mode"!


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Sam on February 09, 2004, 15:31:09
Ok maybe we need to order a pizza, sit around on some beanbags and chill out for a bit.

Nay, you seem like a loving and caring person, and nobody is questioning your best intentions.  However if you hurt somebody directly or indirectly, wouldn't you like to change whatever it is thats causing you to hurt that somebody?  Even if it means looking at yourself, spotting a problem and fixing it?

Nobody's perfect, but we can improve ourselves.

 
quote:
I have no idea what ya'll are experiencing,and at this point does it really matter? Nothing I say will be right..


Why do you think it doesn't really matter what others are experiencing?  I think it matters because it helps you to understand where a person is coming from.  If you don't care about what others are experiencing how can you hope to understand their perspective and why they think yours is flawed?  I'm sure you've had plenty of experience over the past 15 or so years that confirms your own view of things, but that doesn't prove that you are right.  It does however make it harder for you to accept others views.  Still, guess theres nothing wrong with waiting until you see the evidence before you change your views, its just going to be a bit sad if the evidence involves yours, or someone elses pain (whether or not it was intentional).

As for thinking nothing that you say will be right, don't give up.  I'm sure if DK had your attitude she would feel the same way right about now.  Its not about being right or wrong its about listening and trying to understand what the other person is saying, which means asking pertinent questions.  Answers are easy to give, it is the questions which need the most thought because until you ask the right question, you aren't going to get a helpful answer.

 
quote:
You are saying I am causing these things to happen to you, just because I do not take everything you say to be the gospel truth?


Anyone with a good grasp of logic can see that you are overreacting.  YOU are not causing the attacks, but when someone comes and asks for help apparently (I say apparently because I don't know you well enough) you and others push them away, so indirectly that person experiences suffering as a result of the best intentioned ignorance.  If you don't accept DK's testimony as being truth maybe you need to.  Because those names she's weilded around "like a sword" are actually references to people who have or are currently experiencing or witnessing others experiencing the SAME THING as she is, which should be reasonably taken as proof enough to a rational mind that DK is speaking truth when she talks about her experiences.  She isn't making it up.  Also, she isn't trying to force a guilt trip on you, and you should stop being so oversensitive to criticisms of your self.  When someone comes to you for help, tells you about their situation, do you up and say "I don't believe you because its nothing like I've ever experienced.  In my experience it should work like this this and this"?  That kind of response leads to an argument over the validity of the persons experience, causing the person to question their own validity and leading to arguments about the cause rather than speculation as to a cure.

 
quote:
Maybe the negs just know that I will not play their games, and stopped trying to make me play.


Negs can be persistent lil buggers.  Some of them just won't go away, especially if they got their hooks in years before you became aware of anything spiritual.  Personally I've had a host of negs feeding off me for at least ten years, but I've only been spiritually aware for the last two or three, and for one of those years I was under almost complete control so I had no say in what my body was doing.  Wishing them away doesn't work.  Praying to god doesn't work (when they can silence your "voice").  Energy work doesn't work.  Attacking them doesn't work.  Ignoring them just gives them free reign to keep on feeding.  If a shark was chewing off your leg do you think ignoring it would make it dissapear?  Does praying to god make it go "poof"?  The same answer to those two questions applies to the stronger astral enemies one might find around the place.  Just because you've never seen them doesn't mean they don't exist.  Its like saying "I don't believe a shark bit off your leg because I've never seen one".  Imagine the look of surprise on your face when you finally meet one?

And respect...  Don't get me started on respect.  Damn, you got me started.  Why is it that people need to "Earn" respect?  Who amongst us has the right to judge one person more deserving than another?  Nobody.  Why?  Because as soon as you think you have the power to give or take respect from someone else, you immediately automatically think you (or your opinions) have the potential to be better than someone else.  Get rid of the ego trip.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Sam on February 09, 2004, 15:55:49
on a slightly different note, could somebody please direct me to instances where DK has attacked people verbally when they've tried to help her.  I'd like to see it for myself but I've looked around a bit and can't find any examples.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Nay on February 09, 2004, 18:01:30
Hahahahahaha. Wow..that is calling the kettle black!

You spend all that effort on a post and did exactly what you are accusing me of..[:P]

 
quote:
Why do you think it doesn't really matter what others are experiencing? I think it matters because it helps you to understand where a person is coming from. If you don't care about what others are experiencing how can you hope to understand their perspective and why they think yours is flawed? I'm sure you've had plenty of experience over the past 15 or so years that confirms your own view of things, but that doesn't prove that you are right. It does however make it harder for you to accept others views. Still, guess theres nothing wrong with waiting until you see the evidence before you change your views, its just going to be a bit sad if the evidence involves yours, or someone elses pain (whether or not it was intentional).
I didn't say it didn't matter to me, but it seems everytime I give MY OPINION, it is wrong.  So why bother?  and why is that so hard for ya'll to get?  In one sentence I am bad for having my opinion and not hearing yours, in the next sentence you say I should understand why they feel my opinion is flawed..do you not see you are doing the exact thing I am being critiqued for?  I never said I knew everything to be facts either...I am the first to admit that!  Ask anyone who really knows me, I am always trying to learn more and not ashamed of it.

You forgot to add when you quoted me.. I said "maybe the gospel truth is a bit harsh"

 
quote:
Anyone with a good grasp of logic can see that you are overreacting. YOU are not causing the attacks, but when someone comes and asks for help apparently (I say apparently because I don't know you well enough) you and others push them away, so indirectly that person experiences suffering as a result of the best intentioned ignorance.
Now I take this statement..as I don't have a grasp of logic, correct me if I am wrong but that is exactly what it sounds like.  I am not overreacting, I am stating the truth..[:)]  And for someone whom says they don't know me well, you sure seem to act as if you know me, hence you having no problem in telling me of my faults.

 
quote:
Because those names she's weilded around "like a sword" are actually references to people who have or are currently experiencing or witnessing others experiencing the SAME THING as she is, which should be reasonably taken as proof enough to a rational mind that DK is speaking truth when she talks about her experiences. She isn't making it up. Also, she isn't trying to force a guilt trip on you, and you should stop being so oversensitive to criticisms of your self. When someone comes to you for help, tells you about their situation, do you up and say "I don't believe you because its nothing like I've ever experienced. In my experience it should work like this this and this"? That kind of response leads to an argument over the validity of the persons experience, causing the person to question their own validity and leading to arguments about the cause rather than speculation as to a cure.
Well, you see things one way, I see them another.  Doesn't make either of us right..  Like I said..I tried to help, and got shot down for it..I quoted her responses to me.  I felt pretty silly afterwards, I'll tell you that.  She made me feel as if I could be of no help, and my ideas on how to perhaps alleviate some of her problems was down right stupid.

 
quote:
Praying to god doesn't work (when they can silence your "voice"). Energy work doesn't work. Attacking them doesn't work. Ignoring them just gives them free reign to keep on feeding.
It worked for me, but it is obvious from this thread that I have different beliefs on how things can be handled.

 
quote:
If a shark was chewing off your leg do you think ignoring it would make it dissapear? Does praying to god make it go "poof"?
Uh, I am sorry but that is just plain silly, bad analogy for what this whole topic is about.

 
quote:
And respect... Don't get me started on respect. Damn, you got me started. Why is it that people need to "Earn" respect? Who amongst us has the right to judge one person more deserving than another? Nobody. Why? Because as soon as you think you have the power to give or take respect from someone else, you immediately automatically think you (or your opinions) have the potential to be better than someone else. Get rid of the ego trip.
I am trying to remember when I said that you must bow down to me and respect me...  
If you mean I don't respect people, because I have a difference of opinion well...that is your opinion I believe this is what I said, and it doesn't say anything about me demanding your respect..

*sigh* I have repeated myself in as many different ways that I can, I grow tired and weary of this.  I have to say I have learned something today.... That there are negs out there and walking around in human form, and now I give you my back.  

Nay


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 09, 2004, 21:12:14
quote:
Hum... which help am I supposed to have done...?

You thought all that was directed at you Nagual? No, sorry you're not the center of my universe and I don't feel like repeating myself, go play someplace.

quote:
have no idea what ya'll are experiencing,and at this point does it really matter? Nothing I say will be right..  you keep throwing up those names like some kind of sword. Why hasn't Tayesin jumped on the band wagon, why isn't he here defending you, as SD and Enderwiggin are?

Tayesin left the AstralPulse in protest over Mayatnik (see communications forum) and he is currently helping a friend with another forum. I invited him to post at the begining of this thread and he did, I am not calling him back a second time to defend me. He has his own life and helped me when he could, and is still patient with my questions.

quote:
You are saying I am causing these things to happen to you, just because I do not take everything you say to be the gospel truth? And if this is the case, then I am about to get pretty ticked, because you have no right, to push some guilt trip on me.

I do not Astral Project, I have been ripped out of my body from time to time by the greys and other not so nice people/entities, something Spectral Dragon can vouch for because he had to retrieve me at on point after I was yanked out on one occasion. I never got the chance to develop my abilities, damn, I had no interest in developing my abilities, I was studying for and became a chemist for Christ sake. I had no interest in the supernatural. The greys started coming in 1993 I started experiencing real time sight and mind splits, I had no terminology for it at the time. The attacks started in 1998, after which I started experiencing telepathy, telempathy, and other forms of ESP, usually initiated by another entity/person (by showing up and me seeing them, and yes, I am in my body when it happens)...I didn't and still have no desire to develop or use any of it.

You don't cause attacks, and you don't help them either. All things have value, but valuable things come into conflict, in which case we have to arrange things in some order of priority according to our needs. People under attack arrange the priorities to get them through the problems and everyday life while dealing with the attacks. Your actions push for a re-arrangement of those priorities which have caused many people to expend energy they don't have, just to fit in or convince you that they are "doing everything you think they should do" to look responsible in your eyes. They don't have to defend their needs to you and they don't have prove they have those needs....you have to respect it. You are an adult not a child being abused, and what your mother did to you, you can do to others. I'll repeat it again here:
 
quote:
Kakkarot, this is more than not believing in what a person is going through...kakkarot, people under attack have been given advice and if it didn't work in their case, they were blamed for it not working. I recommend blessed ritual salt bathes, but even I don't have the ego to believe if it doesn't work in a particular person's case it's because they're negative or not trying. People under attack that I have been speaking to privately have been doing things that do not work or help their situations just to be "accepted by the group." Just so they don't feel alone...but in actuality it's the worst kind of loneliness there is...being surrounded by people and utterly alone. Others were too weak to pretend, they had already compromised too much, so they left, and they really needed help and support...God only knows what happened to them. If a person dies and no one hears the scream did he/she really die? You guys only heard me screaming so you thought I was only talking about myself (it's just past tense rhetoric, I am fine now, really, I'll just keep saying it)?!

Kakkarot, you get the things you have in life because of compromise. You may not feel the effects of the compromise because you live in a "world" where there is cooperation, respect, and compromise between people to lessen the load. The compromise made to get what you want isn't painful or is neglibly so. When a person gets no cooperation or respect, the only person they have to compromise with is themselves (self). You literally have to compromise whole parts of yourself to get what you need to survive. Do you understand what that means? It means you're in a situation where you can't walk away from anything because you have to do everything yourself. That kind of compromise is extremely painful, destructive of self, and frightening...and then they're being attacked on top of it. You don't get better slowly over time because what you're doing is essentially cannabalising yourself.

I didn't start getting seriously better until I got that help, cooperation, and compromise because I didn't have to compromise all of myself anymore to get what I needed. I could use that freer portion for other things, like enjoying life, enjoying people, seeing more of the positive.

Kakkarot, people forced in a position to compromise their self to survive (not even live, survive) can't see the positive because there is nothing positive about being forced to live that way. You walk around making affirmations and see that everything else around you has value except you,...so you continue to say the mantras all the fluffy bunny people want you say, all the while dying slowly and painfully inside...and there is total awareness every waking second of everything inside you which dies...you have to look at to compromise it. Everything a neg wants in a subject they get when people in pain are treated this way.

quote:
Uh, I am sorry but that is just plain silly, bad analogy for what this whole topic is about.

No it's not silly, that is exactly what you are asking people to do, whether you intend it or not. Hearing people is not the same as listening.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Anonymous on February 09, 2004, 21:16:51
I would like to make it clear that I am neither defending nor attacking anyone, I am just saying what I feel. I just want to avoid confusion. This is an extremely complex issue and will take a lot of brain power, time, and reasoning to solve. Perhaps what I say happens to support this or that person, but it is only my thoughts. Have you read my latest post? What are your thoughts?


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Nay on February 09, 2004, 22:26:00
quote:
You thought all that was directed at you Nagual? No, sorry you're not the center of my universe and I don't feel like repeating myself, go play someplace.
And I am being ridiculed for MY behavior..yikes.[B)]

 
quote:
Tayesin left the AstralPulse in protest over Mayatnik (see communications forum) and he is currently helping a friend with another forum. I invited him to post at the begining of this thread and he did, I am not calling him back a second time to defend me. He has his own life and helped me when he could, and is still patient with my questions.
Couldn't find the post, but I guess it really doesn't matter.  I speak to Tayesin on Messenger as well, guess I will just flat out ask him what the heck is going on.[;)]

 
quote:
I do not Astral Project, I have been ripped out of my body from time to time by the greys and other not so nice people/entities, something Spectral Dragon can vouch for because he had to retrieve me at on point after I was yanked out on one occasion. I never got the chance to develop my abilities, damn, I had no interest in developing my abilities, I was studying for and became a chemist for Christ sake. I had no interest in the supernatural
Now I know why I was having a hard time understanding.. because those have got to be some serious..SERIOUS..strong things, for them to be able to break through the physical plane. I can see now why you would be scared to pieces!  And Spectral Dragon, should become a Moderator because these abilities are something that are very hard to come by and we could all learn something from him.  I wouldn't even know where to begin if faced with such a thing.

 
quote:
You are an adult not a child being abused, and what your mother did to you, you can do to others. I'll repeat it again here:
This, though is a very strong statement..and I have lived my life quite the opposite.  I can't imagine doing the things that were done to me, to a innocent child, no less a adult.  They were done from a weak person whom needed to feel bigger.  And my two dogs she kicked to death were innocent as well..

 
quote:
quote:
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Uh, I am sorry but that is just plain silly, bad analogy for what this whole topic is about.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No it's not silly, that is exactly what you are asking people to do, whether you intend it or not. Hearing people is not the same as listening
Once again another thing I said pulled out of context...*sigh*  I stand by what I said..a shark eating my leg off..doesn't really equate to what is being said here..[:P]

Nay


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: James S on February 09, 2004, 22:27:42
Hi People,

In response to Edi's last post I've started a new thread in case anyones interested -

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10425

This goes towards what both Perena and Mick have mentioned about the need to investigate these occurances more objectively. The idea of my thread is to leave the theories and opinions (nad therefore hopefully disputes) behind in favour of looking more at exactly what HAS successfully been used to overcome negs.

Interesting point Nay has made about the idea of negs being a pretty new thing. I think it's more likely justa  new face on an old demon, a new definition for something that psychics and mystics have been dealing with for a long time, but have not had any suitable nomenclature to attach to it.

Anyway, keep talking here if you wish. Where I started the new topic to be more of an infomation resource, this topic is more for debating the points.

Kind Regards,
James.



Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: shedt on February 09, 2004, 22:31:50
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight

quote:
Hum... which help am I supposed to have done...?

You thought all that was directed at you Nagual? No, sorry you're not the center of my universe and I don't feel like repeating myself, go play someplace.




if you want people to help you, you should not tell people to "go play someplace"

it's very rude, and it makes others who are here looking at your problems not want to help you.

In Falun Dafa I learned something. If someone hits you, there is a transfer of karma and di. but if you punch them back, the karma and di are transfered again. wether you believe in di and karma does not matter.

if someone says something mean to you or attacks you, you do have the choice to ignore it. you don't always have to fight. especialy if it another person.

you should try too work things out.

DK you talk about repeating yourself, but you don't seem to want too hear what other people here are saying too. it's the same situation.

if i punch you, you can choose to walk away. you can rise above the situation. you can grow and learn from it. this is interaction with others.

you might say something like
" i'm under attack, and ignoring the negs won't help"

negs are one thing, but people are another.

don't you think how you act to other people, and your attitute may be effecting the negs attacking you ?

have you ever wondered if maybe the reasons YOU think they are attacking you could be wrong ?

this is all in my opinion.

i hope all the people here under any form of attack can learn what they must to overcome them, and learn to grow and rise above this.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Anonymous on February 10, 2004, 01:40:10
I believe that it is our duty to help each other when something affects our free will. Everyone believes something different. Forgive me for saying this Shedt, I do not mean this as an insult to you or your religion, and has nothing to do with my religious beliefs: Karma, like God, is something that everyone says exists whether one believes it or not. How do we know how karma will pay us back? Will it cause one small annoyance for one hundred consecutive days or will it cause something one hundred times worse than the annoyance for only one day? When an attack takes place, something takes place, and it affects the attacker and the victim. The intent to harm becomes known to the victim, and the victim's emotions are affected because of what it means and what it implies. These emotions cause a disruption in the person's being. The victim is unaltered until the attack happens, and to undo what is done, they need to decide what to do. They have many options, your suggestion being one of them. I believe there is a time and a place for everything, even retaliation. What will they choose? It depends on their belief system, and that's what this whole topic boils down to.

If I were attacked physically, I would defend myself, because I have worked very hard for the skills that I have, and there are many people who love me, who would be hurt by knowing that someone killed me or did me harm. To let that person do me harm is to hurt those who are my friends and family. I cannot let that happen. I also feel that if I do not stop them, they will simply go off and harm someone else. Therefore, I consider it my duty to stop that person from hurting others or myself. I'm not talking about people who have the potential to harm others, I am talking about the ones who do hurt others. The same applies to the astral. If I am going to act one way on one plane, then I should act that way on all planes so that my being is more synchronized. ughh... I'm tired. I think I'll stop here.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: shedt on February 10, 2004, 02:45:20
quote:
Originally posted by EnderWiggin

I believe that it is our duty to help each other when something affects our free will. Everyone believes something different. Forgive me for saying this Shedt, I do not mean this as an insult to you or your religion, and has nothing to do with my religious beliefs: Karma, like God, is something that everyone says exists whether one believes it or not.


please re-read my post, because I believe you missed the point.

like i said, karma does not matter.

what i was trying to say is about choices.

about being a good person, about rising above a situation.

have you heard the term cultivation before ?

do you understand what i was trying to say ?



did you try to understand what i was trying to say, or were you trying to defend what you believe ?

if someone strikes you, you have the choice too not hit them back.

you have the choice to walk away, and be the better person.

again, what i was trying to say had nothing to do about karma.

this really bothers me. everyone here is so bent on shooting down the other person. most people in this thread do not seem to want too rise above, too become a better person.

karma in my post was just a example. i feel like you just looked over what i said, took one part of it and did not read the rest.

i think this goes right to the root of what this topic is about.


again, you have choices in life.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: shedt on February 10, 2004, 02:54:58
quote:
Originally posted by EnderWiggin


If I were attacked physically, I would defend myself, because I have worked very hard for the skills that I have, and there are many people who love me, who would be hurt by knowing that someone killed me or did me harm.


i understand this, but this was not the scenario i ment. if someone shouts at me and calls me a name, it would be childish and imature to shout back. i would be lowering myself, and i would be being negative. i could be positive, and do nothing and walk away. would i be hurt ? no, unless i have a big ego.

is that the problem here ? ego ?

quote:

 To let that person do me harm is to hurt those who are my friends and family. I cannot let that happen. I also feel that if I do not stop them, they will simply go off and harm someone else.


yes, but if you harm them, you are not helping solve the problem. you are not getting to the root of the problem. you are lowering your level and being negative yourself. don't you think trying to talk to them would be better ? if they are bent on hurting others, don't you think you should call the police ?


again this is about the choice too be a better person, to make a personal sacrifice maybe.

it's not hard to try and be a better person. in a forum, on the street...

i like'd too quote Robert Bruce:

pg 195 Practical Pyschic Self-Defense-

"Examine every human interaction for spiritual correctness. Ask these three questions: Was it honest? Was it necessary? Was it kind? "


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: shedt on February 10, 2004, 03:08:54
I don't want flame DK. I like her, I think she is cool. I want her to resolve any problems she may have had, or may be having, or may have in the future.




quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight
[/br]
You thought all that was directed at you Nagual? No, sorry you're not the center of my universe and I don't feel like repeating myself, go play someplace.




quote:
pg 195 Practical Pyschic Self-Defense-

"Examine every human interaction for spiritual correctness. Ask these three questions: Was it honest? Was it necessary? Was it kind? "


was what she said above honest ? from her perspective yes. I believe she said what she ment, even if it was not nice. Was it necessary ? I do not think so. productive ? i don't think so. did it help her or other under attack ? how does it help us learn ?

and was it kind ?

if i was told to "go play someplace"

i would not find that kind.

I'm worried that even if others help her with her problems, or anyone, there still lingers things inside....

again, i don't want to be mean, i want everyone too be happy. but is this all necessary ? hmmm


let me think for a while.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Anonymous on February 10, 2004, 04:34:31
Hi Shedt

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was only stating what I believed, and I was making a reference to what you said about karma, which I took out of its context. I partly do agree with you in that there are times to be the bigger person and walk away. But I also know that there are times when that is simply not an option. I can walk away, but what if I'm followed? I can walk away every time, but I won't always get the same result from it. The real quetion is, can you deal  with the consequences of your own actions? All actions say something about our beliefs and values, which I think brings about the foundation of this entire discussion and every other discussion and argument.

What are your values, and how do they determine your beliefs? What are your goals and how far are you willing to go to achieve them? What methods will you use? What does it mean to struggle?  Is it worth it in the end? This is what decides action. The strength of your beliefs is based on your values, and this is what determines everything else.

But what determines our values?


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Nagual on February 10, 2004, 06:58:40
quote:
You thought all that was directed at you Nagual? No, sorry you're not the center of my universe and I don't feel like repeating myself

Yes, I think you were talking to me.  What would you think if someone quotes you and just after say "you did this, you thought that... etc..." ?  Wouldn't you think he is talking to you?  That's what you did: quote me and say "you... you..."...
quote:
go play someplace.

Agreed.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 10, 2004, 07:31:04
quote:
Couldn't find the post, but I guess it really doesn't matter. I speak to Tayesin on Messenger as well, guess I will just flat out ask him what the heck is going on.


Tayesin comes on MSN at either 5 or 6:00AM US EST (sometimes earlier) or 9 or 10:00PM US EST.

 
quote:
Once again another thing I said pulled out of context...*sigh* I stand by what I said..a shark eating my leg off..doesn't really equate to what is being said here..

Yes it does...it is the perfect analogy for what is happening.











Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Mick on February 10, 2004, 09:05:05
quote:
Originally posted by Nay
quote:

quote:
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I do not Astral Project, I have been ripped out of my body from time to time by the greys and other not so nice people/entities, something Spectral Dragon can vouch for because he had to retrieve me at on point after I was yanked out on one occasion. I never got the chance to develop my abilities, damn, I had no interest in developing my abilities, I was studying for and became a chemist for Christ sake. I had no interest in the supernatural
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Now I know why I was having a hard time understanding.. because those have got to be some serious..SERIOUS..strong things, for them to be able to break through the physical plane. I can see now why you would be scared to pieces! And Spectral Dragon, should become a Moderator because these abilities are something that are very hard to come by and we could all learn something from him. I wouldn't even know where to begin if faced with such a thing.

 

One observation that I am getting here is that amongst the non experiencers and perhaps some ideologies there is considered to be only one type of negative entity that many believe are critters simply crying out for some love and affection. In my opinion and I believe experience there are many types with many motives, we only have to consider the practise of some forms of magic which include invocations sometimes used for attacks on others exploiting perhaps their lack of knowledge and at least initially perhaps their unawareness of such things. Again in the magic camp there is the practise of the construction of servitors for a range of purposes including agression although often used as a protective measure. By mentioning magicians I am not specifically making a judgement against magicians, it is I think the simplest example of other forms of what are generally called negs.
What I am saying is that a one size fits all solution is not I believe valid for the range of critters that might be experienced.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 10, 2004, 10:54:29
quote:
Originally posted by Mick

quote:
Originally posted by Nay
quote:

quote:
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I do not Astral Project, I have been ripped out of my body from time to time by the greys and other not so nice people/entities, something Spectral Dragon can vouch for because he had to retrieve me at on point after I was yanked out on one occasion. I never got the chance to develop my abilities, damn, I had no interest in developing my abilities, I was studying for and became a chemist for Christ sake. I had no interest in the supernatural
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Now I know why I was having a hard time understanding.. because those have got to be some serious..SERIOUS..strong things, for them to be able to break through the physical plane. I can see now why you would be scared to pieces! And Spectral Dragon, should become a Moderator because these abilities are something that are very hard to come by and we could all learn something from him. I wouldn't even know where to begin if faced with such a thing.

 

One observation that I am getting here is that amongst the non experiencers and perhaps some ideologies there is considered to be only one type of negative entity that many believe are critters simply crying out for some love and affection. In my opinion and I believe experience there are many types with many motives, we only have to consider the practise of some forms of magic which include invocations sometimes used for attacks on others exploiting perhaps their lack of knowledge and at least initially perhaps their unawareness of such things. Again in the magic camp there is the practise of the construction of servitors for a range of purposes including agression although often used as a protective measure. By mentioning magicians I am not specifically making a judgement against magicians, it is I think the simplest example of other forms of what are generally called negs.
What I am saying is that a one size fits all solution is not I believe valid for the range of critters that might be experienced.



In my experience, yes, there are different kinds of "negs" (I am beggining to hate that word as much as I hate "demons") But they all have one thing in common: They like to attack the weak points. The ways they do it though are widely varied.

quote:
Now I know why I was having a hard time understanding.. because those have got to be some serious..SERIOUS..strong things, for them to be able to break through the physical plane. I can see now why you would be scared to pieces! And Spectral Dragon, should become a Moderator because these abilities are something that are very hard to come by and we could all learn something from him. I wouldn't even know where to begin if faced with such a thing


Too much name calling and pointing fingers here still, this is a shame. I don't think I want to be a moderator here, as I have my own forum to take care of anyway. Yes these are strong entities, but the way they are getting to DK is unique. (DK since you seem to want to bring this out into the open now I hope you don't mind this...) The beings were forced into her body, and a person was going inside her head and screwing things up. A person, when inside your mind, can do some very drastic things such as pull your conscious and even parts of the sub-conscious (or the aspects of your personality you are not using at the moment) out of body, into etheric, spectral (This is what I call the thought form worlds), or astral planes. This last thing is what she was reffering to.

I do not believe I have anything so special about me that makes me so unique, it's just a will to help and experience as well as an interesting past that has gotten me where I am at. My first projection I was actually forced out of body by two spirits. Before that I had gone through a very vivid and realistic lucid dream which I am going to relate in James' post later when I get the time (nice idea BTW James[:)] )


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Sam on February 10, 2004, 12:10:38
quote:
I didn't say it didn't matter to me, but it seems everytime I give MY OPINION, it is wrong. So why bother? and why is that so hard for ya'll to get? In one sentence I am bad for having my opinion and not hearing yours, in the next sentence you say I should understand why they feel my opinion is flawed..do you not see you are doing the exact thing I am being critiqued for? I never said I knew everything to be facts either...I am the first to admit that! Ask anyone who really knows me, I am always trying to learn more and not ashamed of it.


Thats good then - I'll say no more about that particular issue.

quote:
Now I take this statement..as I don't have a grasp of logic, correct me if I am wrong but that is exactly what it sounds like. I am not overreacting, I am stating the truth.. And for someone whom says they don't know me well, you sure seem to act as if you know me, hence you having no problem in telling me of my faults.


Sorry, I was unclear in my meaning, I'll re-write what I originally posted for clarity.  

What I meant by "anyone with a good grasp of logic could see you are overreacting" was a direct implication that I think (my impression at least) you amongst others take criticism as an attack which you must defend with abrupt denial of fault rather than looking into yourself, seeing if the attack was warranted and then maybe modifying your attitude OR not depending on what you feel is right.  I'm sure you do this anyway but thats not the impression I get from many of the posts here (not just yours, Nay, you were just a more recent example.  I have short term memory problems so sorry you got caught in my crossfire).  Anyway, didn't mean to imply you lacked logic, I was just observing that maybe it was being substituted for some other means of dealing with the conversation.

As for stating the truth, please, tell me this TRUTH, as so far in my life I have discovered many truths only to have time and time again discovered enough evidence to prove them otherwise, until one day I decided that there is no such thing as truth, just observations of phenomena and theories as to their nature.  Even the so-called "laws" of physics get turned on their head every once in a while regardless of the number of scientists who argue their "immutable truths" against the invading theorys.  On the flipside of the truth coin, i sense a pot calling kettles black in that you think you are allowed to state your truths without people questioning their validity, but isn't that what DK did when she tried to say what happened to her truthfully and was questioned about their validity?  So maybe she reacted with hostility, which is exactly what you are doing to the "dark side" of this argument.  Its interesting to see peoples reactions when the tables have turned isn't it.  It's good advice to not give it unless you can take it.

quote:
And for someone whom says they don't know me well, you sure seem to act as if you know me, hence you having no problem in telling me of my faults.


And you can claim that you've never, ever judged anyone you've just met from the way they act in a conversation? P-lease.

 
quote:
Well, you see things one way, I see them another. Doesn't make either of us right.. Like I said..I tried to help, and got shot down for it..I quoted her responses to me. I felt pretty silly afterwards, I'll tell you that. She made me feel as if I could be of no help, and my ideas on how to perhaps alleviate some of her problems was down right stupid.


Like I tried explaining earlier, but you probably missed the point, there is no such thing as right or wrong when it comes to anyones perception of how they think the universe is.  But there is a sliding scale between delusion and reality where some people are more or less deluded than others.  So you got shot down because she didn't need your help.  So DK acted a bit upset in a time of crisis.  Thats over and done with now isn't it?  Why does it keep on getting dragged back up.  Are you still hurting over it?  I'm not trying to cause any bad feelings around here I certainly have none for you Nay, but maybe you'll feel better if you understand that Dark Knight did find your solutions silly and useless in her situation.  They may work for you, but theres many cats and more than one way to skin em.  If your well being depended on skinning cats, it would be nice to be able to skin as many different kinds as possible in as many ways.  Yack, bad analogy.  Anyhoo...

 
quote:
It worked for me, but it is obvious from this thread that I have different beliefs on how things can be handled.


Which is the point in question I think.  And this just doesn't affect you, Nay.  Everyone has different beliefs in how things can be handled but they all lie on that sliding scale I mentioned earlier.  This discussion I think is trying to make us all aware of where we stand on that scale and I for one dont give a monkeys if I happen to be 33.6% more delusional than you.  If you think that is the case then try to prove it for goodness sake, unless of course you're happy to let delusional people wander in your midst deluding other people they manage to convince of their delusional perspective.

 
quote:
Uh, I am sorry but that is just plain silly, bad analogy for what this whole topic is about.


Just re-reading the topic... hmm.. problems with PSD.  No I think the shark analogy works because the problem with PSD is a lot of people seem to believe something which works for them works for everyone else, and the reason that it doesn't work for certain others is because it is their belief system which is flawed, because it doesn't reflect your's closeley enough.  I will extend the analogy by adding that maybe you're spearfishing in the astral and so far you've encountered only herring.  One of the problems with PSD is not enough people acknowledge the greater dangers out there, and seem to think that thinking scary thoughts somehow attracts those big bastards.  Well, I used to be a positive child and was taken by a shark so to speak, and only recently realised what was happening.

 
quote:
I am trying to remember when I said that you must bow down to me and respect me...
If you mean I don't respect people, because I have a difference of opinion well...that is your opinion I believe this is what I said, and it doesn't say anything about me demanding your respect..


Ok so maybe I had an issue with the clarity of your original post, but I have to make it clear also that its not only you that talks about respect.  I've read around here of peoples respect "slipping" a notch or two this way and that.  Maybe the issue should be trust and not respect because as soon as you stop respecting someone because of past injustices, you fail to notice that maybe their personality has changed.  Trust on the other hand is different, because if you distrust someone then your intentions are a lot clearer.  Thats how I deal with it anyway but then again, the old delusionometer could come in handy right about now.

 
quote:
*sigh* I have repeated myself in as many different ways that I can, I grow tired and weary of this. I have to say I have learned something today.... That there are negs out there and walking around in human form, and now I give you my back.


Before you go, one last question.  No I don't think you've repeated yourself that much actually we do seem to be getting this argument to some fundamental issues that underly the greater problem of what is wrong with PSD, namely that to do with peoples beliefs on what is "correct" as far as PSD is concerned.  We have each others best interests at heart and rest assured what you are saying isn't falling on deaf ears, as I can see where you are coming from and I am slightly altering my stance to clarify and sometimes nullify some of my earlier arguments if you didn't notice.

And by turning your back on me is that to say I'm not worth talking to?  What are you afraid of, that I might learn something from you or that *gasp* you might learn from a stupid, ill informed newb?

Please don't go Nay.  I like to sort things out so that everyone is happy, but I guess I'm just too flexible when it comes to breaking my comfort zone.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Sam on February 10, 2004, 14:41:53
Okay this may be getting to personal.  I still stand by what I've said but I've had a good think about this next part.

I haven't "taken sides" as such in this argument, I've just tried to help people understand some of the ideas that seem so logically sound but keep getting rejected outright.  Theres two main sides in this debate, one (Team A) which claims that "I have a right to my belief and nothing you can say will change it because I only believe things I experience myself" and the other (Team B) claims "I also have a right to my belief and I believe what you believe is flawed, and I'm trying to help you understand where that flaw lies".  Team A claims team B has no right to pick out their flaws.  Team B thinks that by showing team A what they think are flaws they are going to help team A prepare against something that team B had a hard time dealing with.  Now the issue seems more complex because both sides have stooped to making assumptions that offend each other and I am guilty of this to a certain degree, sorry if I assumed something that hurt you.  I say "seems" more complex because it really isn't.  If we were to wipe the slate clean of whatever A or B may have said to offend one another we can look at each others arguments in an unbiased light.  If you have taken offense to something and still hold a grudge maybe consider forgiving because holding a grudge is definately a negative thing to do.  Team A would like to leave the argument because they think they've repeated the same things over and over again, which appears to be the case.  Team B, however, seems to have made a concerted effort to provide different explainations for the same concept which very simply put is "I think PSD is flawed because people are being pushed away when they realise the help they recieve isn't working, and whenever they mention this fact they are told to try harder, or they aren't doing it right.  Meanwhile whatever is causing the damage is still there, and everyone on the forum is arguing about which different solutions work better instead of offering their solution and allowing the victim to try them all, leaving the victim confused and self doubting, since this place was seen as a refuge for those in need"
Team A denys this assertion.  They say they have a right to their beliefs (which I don't argue), and don't think that they are pushing people away.  Team A is running out of steam and have decided that Team B is stubborn and not listening to them, so the best way to deal with it is to abandon the argument because they feel like it's going nowhere.  My belief (from experience with people in life in general) is that if people abandon an argument, the issues under scrutiny will not go away and will linger in the back of people's minds and every time they see something from the "other team" they will immediately predjudice their response based upon unresolved feelings.  I'm not saying this is an easy situation but it will be better for everyone involved to stay put and try and understand the "other team"'s perspective and how it fits in with their own.  If an argument gets ignored, it implys "well I know what I believe and I don't think I should be interfering/caring about what the other guy believes because he/she isn't me and I only care about myself and my own beliefs."

That, from what I've read here, is the clearest and simplest view of this argument that I can come up with.  Does anybody want to help me clarify it or are we all going to leave this one alone for some reason?


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Mick on February 10, 2004, 15:39:41
quote:
Originally posted by SpectralDragon

In my experience, yes, there are different kinds of "negs" (I am beggining to hate that word as much as I hate "demons") But they all have one thing in common: They like to attack the weak points. The ways they do it though are widely varied.


generally I never used the term negs prefering entity plus an adjective.

Yes, it makes common sense to attack weaknesses and where an appropriate weakness does not exist there will often be a persistent attempts to establish a hook especially where the purpose is for a prolonged association.

Another aspect that I think is important is what type of associations or networks do entities have or use as part of their activities be they honourable or otherwise. We do note that entities will travel by predefined routes along which can be found structures/resources placed there by others to assist group operations. It is our thought that for some activities these structures help some types of entities to operation in close association with the physical world.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 10, 2004, 15:42:55
quote:
Originally posted by Mick

quote:
Originally posted by SpectralDragon

In my experience, yes, there are different kinds of "negs" (I am beggining to hate that word as much as I hate "demons") But they all have one thing in common: They like to attack the weak points. The ways they do it though are widely varied.


generally I never used the term negs prefering entity plus an adjective.

Yes, it makes common sense to attack weaknesses and where an appropriate weakness does not exist there will often be a persistent attempts to establish a hook especially where the purpose is for a prolonged association.

Another aspect that I think is important is what type of associations or networks do entities have or use as part of their activities be they honourable or otherwise. We do note that entities will travel by predefined routes along which can be found structures/resources placed there by others to assist group operations. It is our thought that for some activities these structures help some types of entities to operation in close association with the physical world.



"our"????? You and who...

Anyway I do agree that they group together sometimes.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Mick on February 10, 2004, 18:36:47
quote:
Originally posted by SpectralDragon
"our"????? You and who...



My partner plus one or two others.

We like to work in a corroborative manner, that is observe and then compare, then ponder :)


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Fuzziwig on February 11, 2004, 17:31:15
Hello everyone
I will in this post provide a channeling by my guide Jopeha, who found it important to speak on the methods used in getting rid of 'negs'.

The need for a method to get rid of 'negs' or to help them out have long been sought after through the ages of man, but it has often been with terrifying results. It has been with fear and anger, that campaigns have been led to rid them out and create a better life for those affected by such. There has been no regard for the spirit itself, but looked upon as something evil or non-personal. The truth is that these 'negs' or negative spirits hold personality and give up much of their time to reconsile with their own feelings. They are not the fearsome beasts or demons because they attack and induce fear in others. They are poor souls that have not found a way out of their misery and therefore react upon this misery. There is no excuse for these actions, but bear in mind that the spirit is acting upon the suffering that its experiencing, and any way to get out of this suffering would be acceptable for the spirit. The spirit sometimes attack with a wish to establish a contact to the living for a way out, but its often that the living is not capable of helping out and are scared of these attacks. Needless to say there is a miscommunication that lead to fear on both sides, and induces anger in the spirit that is led from the frustration of not being helped and rejected in often cruel ways.
We dont have a way to help these spirits directly as they are on a level of confusion that they must work out on their own, but still they are affected by the help of the guides who work in a subtler way and can not intervene in a brute way. This is why there are people who have brought it upon themselves to help these spirits and find ways in doing so. When such a help occur between a living person and a spirit, there is created a bond of trust between them. It is here that spirit can find reconciliation and move towards new steps in its development. There are no promises of a fair and painless process, as this is a living person that has passed on, but stuck on a plane that bears confusion and misleading thoughts. Now there is no way that a spirit can find reconciliation in being chased away or tried upon its life. Only by opening up towards other possibilities than chasing away or trying to kill, can the spirit find this reconciliation.
We dont ask for people to do this helping, but we do encourage people to think of what they are doing when they do help. We find it a good idea to look upon the methods that is being used and find if they indeed help. Help that extends the living person and this persons needs. There is no reconciliation met if the victim of these attacks is told that the spirit wont be coming back because it has been chased away, as this might just feed ideas indicating a rearrival of this spirit. This is often the case when people have been haunted or attacked for many years, trying every method there is to scare it away or try to drive it out. They dont see that the spirit is only angered and that it dont see a reason why it should leave this place, because it has occupied that space and no person should tell it where to go. There is no reason at all why this spirit shouldnt be able to be helped, as it can be done by approaching it in a nonhostile way. So there is a need to reevaluate the methods being used, if one truly wish to help those who are living and those who are no longer with the living.


Light and Compassion
Fuzziwig


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: kiauma on February 11, 2004, 18:08:49
Great post Fuzzi.  What Jopeha has said makes a lot of sense.  I see a simular evolution in human society in general, that in antiquity other tribes or peoples were dehumanized and even demonized on the rational of survival.  Often, both sides reviled the other, but in modern times we have the consciousness to realize that the 'enemy' is usually just somebody else out looking for their own best interests too.  Sadly, too often, this still happens in the world today.

I really came back to post a more general remark, which I think is related.

It relates to the level and ferocity of debate over this topic.  Each poster seems to believe passionately in his view, which I see as indicating far deeper issues than what appears to be.  As has been remarked many times elsewhere at this site there is currently in the world today a veritable explosion of spiritual, psychic, and astral experience and activity.  Why this is so is something I think we should all think about.

This link, which I can neither agree with or disagree with, is an example of what I mean:
http://deoxy.org/t_sunami.htm


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Mick on February 12, 2004, 17:48:27
quote:
Originally posted by Fuzziwig

They are poor souls that have not found a way out of their misery and therefore react upon this misery. There is no excuse for these actions, but bear in mind that the spirit is acting upon the suffering that its experiencing, and any way to get out of this suffering would be acceptable for the spirit. The spirit sometimes attack with a wish to establish a contact to the living for a way out, but its often that the living is not capable of helping out and are scared of these attacks. Needless to say there is a miscommunication that lead to fear on both sides, and induces anger in the spirit that is led from the frustration of not being helped and rejected in often cruel ways.
...
There are no promises of a fair and painless process, as this is a living person that has passed on, but stuck on a plane that bears confusion and misleading thoughts


This rather sounds like what are called earth bound spirits by other aware groups and many groups do actually seek to help them out. Spiritualists have rescue groups for such work and mediums will often be found conversing and coaching such types to leave a place where they might have been annoying the physical residents in an attempt to get a point over. Some exorcisms are also directed at helping such to move on from their entrapment
quote:

There is no reconciliation met if the victim of these attacks is told that the spirit wont be coming back because it has been chased away, as this might just feed ideas indicating a rearrival of this spirit.


That is a narrow view and not one that I find prevalent.
There does seem to be an obsession here with the ascribing of fear and hatred (re. quoting Medgar Evers quote) to those who have some objection to being the subject of unpleasant experiences whatever the cause!

I would also add seeing the whole of the flora and fauna of what some term negative aspects as only earthbound spirits is a somewhat restricted view. It takes no account of many other possible causes and potential sources of problems in amongst the good stuff. Giving advice on this basis is unsound!


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 13, 2004, 08:15:49
I agree with Mick, the main problem I have been seeing throughout this whole thing is that neg attacks are ascribed a narrow definition and limited viewpoint. The fear and hate thing ahs been beaten to death and even Robert Bruce has described many a situation where a neg can come after you through someone elses work (enslaving the neg),...negs are very old and some very powerful with high pain threshholds and they do hold long grudges. Robert has demonstrated accounts of negs attacking a family line generation after generation, just because of a grudge. Back when I still had problems keeping these things out of me, I'd drink pure Holy Water and feel the squirming inside my chest and hear, "It burns, it burns, but we don't care, we hate you that much."

Not all negs are earthbound entities that are lost and confused, in fact Robert has even stated in his book, they are a small percentage. There has got to be more imagination and creativity and understanding in what a neg is and how it operates.





Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 13, 2004, 10:58:31
Fuzzy:
I am seeing the idea through your guide that "evil cannot exist." This is simply not true. Every guide knows that evil exists. I don't think Hitler is going through a heaven state right now in fields of flowers or fluffie bunnies. If evil did not exist what is the reason for hell to exist?


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Akensai on February 13, 2004, 12:21:15
There is no hell, or you would have to make one!  Ah well that’s what I belief anyway, as I see no reason to belief in hell.

The size of this topic show if nothing else how complex this topic is.

One thing I do find disturbing as someone above me also did, that the guides don't seem to admit negs can cause real problems. I don't think any human is evil, but they can still do horrible things, I can't see why this would be any different whit negs. Then what do you do about such a neg, it seems obvious your not going to have nice “chat” whit him, so then what do you do? (This is a question for the guides)


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Mick on February 13, 2004, 13:36:19
quote:
Originally posted by Akensai

There is no hell, or you would have to make one!  Ah well that’s what I belief anyway, as I see no reason to belief in hell.


I am not sure about hell of heaven for that matter but
 
quote:

One thing I do find disturbing as someone above me also did, that the guides don't seem to admit negs can cause real problems. I don't think any human is evil, but they can still do horrible things, I can't see why this would be any different whit negs.


Think that I might stretch to saying that some humans are evil, watching the news can be unnerving sometimes when considering the nature of the people being reported on.

In my experience not all guides do deny, which of course raises some potentially very important questions. Where is the one voice of a common source etc etc?

quote:

 Then what do you do about such a neg, it seems obvious your not going to have nice “chat” whit him, so then what do you do? (This is a question for the guides)



I like the previous comment, sending positive thoughts to someone about to punch one on the nose is generally not effective. Western cultures do have this turn the other cheek mentality which helps the bad guys immensely.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Sam on February 13, 2004, 16:38:52
I don't know if you can say somebody is evil in their intent.  The result of their actions could be considered evil, for example economic sanctions starving millions of people to death, but to put yourself in the shoes of the person or people making that choice, they would have grown up in a world where whatever made them make that choice seemed like the right thing to do.  They learned to justify their actions with some "greater good" concept whereby the end justifies the means.  They lack the experience of suffering or the compassion for suffering because its something that has never entered their sphere of perception.

If there is a sense of karma in the cycles of life, such people will be made to experience the suffering for each and every being affected by their actions, or until they learn that cause and effect, choices you make affect other people because of the consequences of such choices.  If not, well they'll just go on being prisoner to their own ignorance.

Even if there is no karma, the millions of starving people develop a deep longing to express the injustice being done to them.  They talk amongst themselves and the "wisest" amongst them decides to try and enact karma on the oppressors by say, hijacking an airliner and crashing it into a building.  Not a wise way to make a point, but understandable if you place yourselves in the shoes of the people making the choice.

I can't see even the most viciously agressive person who has no concern for other people's welfare being evil.  I'm not saying what they do is right, because a murderer or rapist isn't right.  But in their head, they just got screwed up somewhere along the line so that other matters less than self.  If you choose to define that as evil then so be it, but even so such people can be helped if they are placed in the right circumstances to force a change in their attitude.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 14, 2004, 08:35:42
Sam, I agree with you, to a point, but I think you only listed as far as the point in you post.

As people, we learn, and because boundaries always start off as "all inclusive" we unfortunately find new boundaries my accidentally crossing over another person's unintentionally. Problem is the responsiblity thing. Yes we may only know certain things until after the fact, but once we know better we have to take responsibility and try to do better.

The entities that gave me grief (and still try to, even though they don't get in), would use "the gain sympathy to get in" trick that Robert described. It is not the job of the person under attack to change the incoming neg, it is the job of the neg to do it. The person being attacked is in no position to help an incoming neg, they're trying to keep themselves alive. I would place the responsiblity on the guide and individuals who are healers and not under severe attack.



Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: McArthur on February 15, 2004, 06:07:25
I couldnt read this entire thread because i find it hard to read these so-called "channellings" from negs/unclean spirits/astral shells. *shivers*

Dont you people realize that an unclean spirit will pretend to be ANYTHING so long as you allow it to keep feeding off your attention/energy?

But from what i have read here it seems that some here (or the negs they are host to) are attempting to recruit other gullable persons to allow these spirits (by inviting them in) to come feed. So im going to have some questions for your "spirit guides" if they are prepared to answer. After all, the Bible says to "test your spirits" so i feel that any positive spirit surely wont mind being tested right?

Here is test No.1: Tell the spirit that you have decided you want it to leave for exactly 1 month and make no contact with you WHATSOEVER during this time. If it refuses or comes up with an excuse such as "I am not able to do that because we have important work to do to fulfil Divine Plans" then you can be sure its a neg. Any positive helpful spirit will understand your wishes and do as asked.


Not all negs will cause negative symptoms. So long as they get to feed on your attention why would they? Some negs feed by giving their victim an orgasm. feels good eh but its still a form of vampirism.

I will have more to say on this soon (and after i have read the whole thread) i'm just so shocked at present how gullable some people really are. You can choose to take my post as being negative if you like, and i'll certainly be interested in what any of your "guides" have to say- so fire away. I do realize that this post may seem slightly antagonistic but thats because i really dont like negs.

Here is a question for anyone with a guide: Ask it what the special meaning of the number 228 is. If it is a guide with contacts Higher up it will know.


Try this link; http://www.clairvision.org/CKB/CKBC/CKBC_000_077/Index.html

Here is a couple from the FAQ;

From: Could some entities be extra terrestrials or related to them?

"All jokes aside, if there is one thing that has emerged from the Clairvision exploration of entities, it is that you can never believe what they tell you. Entities exist on a fluid, changing level. They can easily modify their appearance, and the 'feel' attached to them. They are ready to play all sorts of games. And they are always looking for someone to buy into their game, because it is their best chance of survival."

From: You say that entities are not evil. How do you reconcile this with other people's reports of demonic entities?

"Entities have a chameleon nature.

Once you identify an entity, the entity will try hard to make you believe you can't live without it, or that it is so powerful that there is no chance you will ever get rid of it.

The reason is simple: if you clear it, it loses its life support system. Fragments (by far the most common category of entities) are unable to survive by themselves. In most cases, when a fragment is expelled from its host, its only chance of survival is to find another host in a matter of days or weeks.

So when the client consciously gets in touch with the entity, the entity is ready to play all sorts of games to 'extend its visa', so to speak. Give the entity a lead, and it will follow it. Ask it, "Are you evil?" and it will answer you, "Yes! More evil than you can possibly imagine."

Ask it, "Are you my spirit guide?" and it will answer you as if it were your spirit guide.

Ask it, "Are you an alien?" and it will immediately draw from the client's memory to fabricate extra-terrestrial stories.

This is one of the reasons why entities appear different in different cultural and religious contexts.

In the Clairvision style of work, entities are reduced to their smallest denominator. They are not given much chance to build up stories. Their wantings are analysed with as little 'wrapping' as possible, keeping the story side to the strictest minimum. Then they are cleared."





Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 15, 2004, 10:03:46
MacArthur, I have two problems with the channelings presented here. One is exactly what you have just pointed out in your post. The other is the concept that a guide can and will do anything to you (no boundaries whatsoever) to teach you a lesson, including lying. If that's the case then how do you tell the difference between good and evil. Lessons and learning are not more valuable than people, might as well say experimenting on the Jews in the camps was OK because valuable info was obtained...it's the same thing. Personal value, value of other, and value of creation are the dilineations we use to learn lessons and tell good from evil. Without them there is no way to tell the difference among them, nothing to feel out, they all become the same sensation...one meaningless, all inclusive boundary with no value.  

A direct quote from Robert Bruce's book, Practical Psychic Self Defense:
Avoid the Love and Light Approach:

Contrary to the advice of many modern spiritual teachers, turning the other cheek, refusing to fight back, and sending loving thoughts to an attacking or possessing neg is not productive and borders on the ridiculous. It is an ineffective approach when dealing with attacking or possessing negs.

A channeled spirit once told me that I come under so many intense psychic attacks because I resist. It said my resistance was an open challenge and this, in itself, attracts and causes psychic attacks. I was told to stop resisting and love my enemy, and that the attacks would stop if I ceased my fiery resistance. I tried this once (I'll try just about anything once) and it almost got me killed. I suffered a lot more damage than I would have, had I countered the attack in my usual way. Submitting to an attack and sending loving thoughts, if anything, empowers attacking Negs.

...Negs thrive on love and light approach and use it to further their ends. They use these gentle spiritual beliefs against people. Negs play on these and often pretend to be misguided lost spirits, projecting seemingly harmless illusory forms to the perceptions of sensitives. But in truth they are just furthering their controls. Negs are masters of lies, trickery, and deception. A troublesome spirit, no matter what it pretends to be, should never be trusted further than one can throw it. Negs should never be given the benefit of the doubt.

pages 291-292 of Practical Psychic Self Defense.

And I don't recall Robert Bruce using Fluffy Bunny approach when he was demonically possessed and almost died out in the Australian Bush (pages 135 -142)




Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: McArthur on February 15, 2004, 12:29:24
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight

The other is the concept that a guide can and will do anything to you (no boundaries whatsoever) to teach you a lesson, including lying.


If that is a concept that has been put to you then you are right not to trust those who have done so. YOU are the Master of your own body and Mind, NOT some other entity claiming to be your "spirit guide". Anyone who tells you otherwise is being used as a tool to recruit more food by negs.

Why would we need a spirit guide to help us to experience existence? Are we not each capable of living our own lives and learning our own lessons without interference from "spirits"? Life is short, live it and enjoy it if you can, we will all be dead ourselves sooner or later and able to see what knowledge the spiritual realms have to offer at that point in our Journey.

I made a big mistake when i trusted a spirit that claimed to be my spirit guide quite some time ago. Oh it was polite at first and claimed to offer Ancient Knowledge etc etc (the usual ploy) but when i asked it to be quiet (it would constantly TALK keeping me up late at nights making me listen to what it had to say - all the while feeding off my attention (where the attention goes the enegy flows)) it soon got nasty because it knew i was wising up to its game. Long story but ever since then, after learning MYSELF from that mistake, i have been suspicious about these so-called "spirit-guides" because it is far too easy to fall into the trap of a neg pretending to be one.

And you will find, if you watch those with "spirit guides" closely that there is a general pattern to them. One is that their guides claim to be giving them information no-one else has which plays on ones ego's need to feel self-important. Its a "Oh i have a guide so i must be spiritually mature, i have been chosen! Oh wow how amazing!" Having a "spirit guide" amongst the New Age gurus (and they are ten a penny) is looked on as some kind of status symbol. And negs know that and play into the gullable using all this.

And anyone who suggest you use a pendulum to call spirits is giving very dangerous teachings indeed! Do NOT call these spirits unless you absolutely KNOW what you are doing. People tend to think (as i did before i learned my hard lesson) that if something is a "spirit" non-physical it must be more knowledgable than us and also people associate spirits to "spiritual realms" i.e. Heaven. Well these same folks need to learn that just because your'e "dead" don't mean you are nice!

I'm betting that there will be no comments to my posts by any "spirit guides" because they know i will be able to spot a faker straight away. Lets wait and see. Any takers?


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 15, 2004, 13:02:00
quote:
Originally posted by McArthur

I couldnt read this entire thread because i find it hard to read these so-called "channellings" from negs/unclean spirits/astral shells. *shivers*

Dont you people realize that an unclean spirit will pretend to be ANYTHING so long as you allow it to keep feeding off your attention/energy?

But from what i have read here it seems that some here (or the negs they are host to) are attempting to recruit other gullable persons to allow these spirits (by inviting them in) to come feed. So im going to have some questions for your "spirit guides" if they are prepared to answer. After all, the Bible says to "test your spirits" so i feel that any positive spirit surely wont mind being tested right?

Here is test No.1: Tell the spirit that you have decided you want it to leave for exactly 1 month and make no contact with you WHATSOEVER during this time. If it refuses or comes up with an excuse such as "I am not able to do that because we have important work to do to fulfil Divine Plans" then you can be sure its a neg. Any positive helpful spirit will understand your wishes and do as asked.


Not all negs will cause negative symptoms. So long as they get to feed on your attention why would they? Some negs feed by giving their victim an orgasm. feels good eh but its still a form of vampirism.

I will have more to say on this soon (and after i have read the whole thread) i'm just so shocked at present how gullable some people really are. You can choose to take my post as being negative if you like, and i'll certainly be interested in what any of your "guides" have to say- so fire away. I do realize that this post may seem slightly antagonistic but thats because i really dont like negs.

Here is a question for anyone with a guide: Ask it what the special meaning of the number 228 is. If it is a guide with contacts Higher up it will know.


Try this link; http://www.clairvision.org/CKB/CKBC/CKBC_000_077/Index.html

Here is a couple from the FAQ;

From: Could some entities be extra terrestrials or related to them?

"All jokes aside, if there is one thing that has emerged from the Clairvision exploration of entities, it is that you can never believe what they tell you. Entities exist on a fluid, changing level. They can easily modify their appearance, and the 'feel' attached to them. They are ready to play all sorts of games. And they are always looking for someone to buy into their game, because it is their best chance of survival."

From: You say that entities are not evil. How do you reconcile this with other people's reports of demonic entities?

"Entities have a chameleon nature.

Once you identify an entity, the entity will try hard to make you believe you can't live without it, or that it is so powerful that there is no chance you will ever get rid of it.

The reason is simple: if you clear it, it loses its life support system. Fragments (by far the most common category of entities) are unable to survive by themselves. In most cases, when a fragment is expelled from its host, its only chance of survival is to find another host in a matter of days or weeks.

So when the client consciously gets in touch with the entity, the entity is ready to play all sorts of games to 'extend its visa', so to speak. Give the entity a lead, and it will follow it. Ask it, "Are you evil?" and it will answer you, "Yes! More evil than you can possibly imagine."

Ask it, "Are you my spirit guide?" and it will answer you as if it were your spirit guide.

Ask it, "Are you an alien?" and it will immediately draw from the client's memory to fabricate extra-terrestrial stories.

This is one of the reasons why entities appear different in different cultural and religious contexts.

In the Clairvision style of work, entities are reduced to their smallest denominator. They are not given much chance to build up stories. Their wantings are analysed with as little 'wrapping' as possible, keeping the story side to the strictest minimum. Then they are cleared."




This IS only fair [;)] Very well, I already did the month thing with Kereen. She did not like the idea (for reasons I will not explain, but it was not the "we have divine" stuff that you were talking about) but she agreed because at the time I had to sort myself out (long story) So that's a plus there.

228...hmmm let's see what she says... she's luaghing. Don't know why. Sorry seems like she thinks this is misguided a bit or something. Has to do with Chaos Math I know (and am getting) that much.

Also, she said "you need to come up with better tests, negs do so like to act like the real thing."


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: McArthur on February 15, 2004, 13:47:28
quote:
Originally posted by SpectralDragon
This IS only fair [;)] Very well, I already did the month thing with Kereen. She did not like the idea (for reasons I will not explain, but it was not the "we have divine" stuff that you were talking about) but she agreed because at the time I had to sort myself out (long story) So that's a plus there.

OK i have a few questions if you or Kereen don't mind. Can you describe to me what Kereen actually is and what purpose she holds as your spirit guide?

Also i am interested in why you "already did the month thing" and why she "did not like the idea". It seems you are reluctant to share this which in itself, in the interest of seeking Truth, does not bode well for our tests. Could you ask her if she would be prepared to do a 3 month test without you? And if not, why not. What reason? Also ask her why you need her, what is the answer?
quote:

228...hmmm let's see what she says... she's luaghing. Don't know why.


Could you ask her why she laughed please. Why would she laugh and not tell you why?
quote:

 Sorry seems like she thinks this is misguided a bit or something.


Oh really? Thats interesting. Ask her if she knows what the sacred number of Jesus is for me please. Its not 228 but i want to know if she knows the connection.
quote:

 Has to do with Chaos Math I know (and am getting) that much.


Can she be more specific please. Vagueness is a trait of a neg that knows very little but knows how to confuse.
quote:

Also, she said "you need to come up with better tests, negs do so like to act like the real thing."


Of course she would say that, isnt that what i said in my post?

Is there somewhere where you describe your spirit guide experience in detail on these forums so i can get a better idea of who/what Kereen is please? (ive not read this whole thread yet-- its so long!)



Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: McArthur on February 15, 2004, 13:51:43
p.s. also i am interested in what psychic abilities she has. If i was to give you a picture of myself would she be able to give me any information about myself from the picture? Thanks.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 15, 2004, 14:52:59
Whoa, Whoa, whoa, Spectral and MacArthur, take it easy. I know your story MacArthur, you sent it to me before you disappeared, and I have spoken to Spectral "a few times". You guys might end up being friends and don't know it.

MacArthur, Spectral's guide Kereen is "unusual" and so is Spectral. Do I agree with Kereen all the time, no, and Spectral will tell you that. But my trust issue isn't as severe with her as with certain others. And vagueness is a problem I have with Mayatnik.

Read the WHOLE thread MacArthur...and Spectral don't use Chaos Math on MacArthur (he isn't being vague MacArthur, he's doing CM, trying to figure you out too), just be straight forward for goodness sake [;)] You may really like him a lot and I think you two will discover you have a lot in common.



Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on February 15, 2004, 15:01:03
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight

Whoa, Whoa, whoa, Spectral and MacArthur, take it easy. I know your story MacArthur, you sent it to me before you disappeared, and I have spoken to Spectral "a few times". You guys might end up being friends and don't know it.

MacArthur, Spectral's guide Kereen is "unusual" and so is Spectral. Do I agree with Kereen all the time, no, and Spectral will tell you that. But my trust issue isn't as severe with her as with certain others. And vagueness is a problem I have with Mayatnik.

Read the WHOLE thread MacArthur...and Spectral don't use Chaos Math on MacArthur (he isn't being vague MacArthur, he's doing CM, trying to figure you out too), just be straight forward for goodness sake [;)] You may really like him a lot and I think you two will discover you have a lot in common.



DK we are both being fair, don't worry
McArthur if you want details I will have to go to the PM channels. There is such a thing as something being personal after all [;)] I will go into more later have to get some sleep.

Also, carefull how you mention XM DK.......


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 15, 2004, 15:06:58
You just mentioned XM, I can't believe you just did that [:O]

MacArthur, he really si a nice guy and won't force anything on you.




Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: McArthur on February 15, 2004, 17:11:47
Heh well it would be hard for anyone to force anything onto me to be honest. And it seems SD is taking my posts ok so far. Nothing from anyone else yet though. The forums have changed a LOT and ive not been on for a while. Seems i have some catching up to do with the new forums such as the channeling one....  ive read Mustardseeds one about halfway and am really enjoying it!

So SD pm me if you like. Like you said Dk i need to read the whole thread but its 12 pages looooong!


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Dark Knight on February 15, 2004, 17:31:39
quote:
Like you said Dk i need to read the whole thread but its 12 pages looooong!


I know, I know, but lessons had to be learned, and learning, sadly, is very linear, regardless of how, where, and when the self floats.

Read all of it, might get a chuckle or two or twelve. Oh Sorry Thirteen, now.

Really, SD is cuddly and lovable, I plan on adopting him as my son someday [:P]

Take care MacArthur, and good to see you here again.


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: SpectralDragon on August 04, 2004, 07:50:58
Now this brings back memories of the angry bee doesn't it?


Title: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?
Post by: Edi on January 29, 2004, 11:40:44
Hello fellow Astral Pulsars,

although I am a member of this forum since a few months, I have stayed out of the psychic self defense section until now because I neither needed help with psychic 'attacks', nor did I feel the necessity to contribute anything from my side. However, I've been following many threads here, and my guide Perena wishes me to express her viewpoint about 'psychic self defense' here by channeling her words at this present time. I've got to know my guide more than half a year ago and have been in constant telepathic communication with her since. I put absolutely trust and confidence into her, not only because others confirmed her 'validity' to me, but because of the experiences I had with her over the course of the last months; she always did what turned out to be best for me, always respecting my personal needs, and I've seen again and again how I could help others by what was given to me to pass on. In that sense, I ask you to consider what follows with an open mind. This channeling is done by writing down the words I hear telepathically from my guide exactly as they come to my mind.



"Greetings to everyone reading this. As Edi said, it was my wish to express myself here, because I am concerned about the way things are going, along with the other guides who are working at my side. We have seen the attitude that was present in this forum and how it evolved over time. It was decided to put this channeling here and not in the communications section of this forum in order to reach the people who are effected by this topic.

So first I will begin to explain the situation of someone who is new to spiritual matters, wants to explore and find out things, and seeks advice and guidance along his path after a short while. Imagine the common man from the street who follows his urges to listen to what is happening inside of him, to explore who he is. He might buy some books from a New Age store, have some recommendations from friends, and begins to work seriously on his development. Meditation, astral projection, dream recall, magic, or whatever he chooses to pursue, keeps him interested because he reaches his personal boundaries there. He wishes to see and know what he has never seen before in his life, although that slight little "something" has been there all his life. So he starts with introspection, with trying to see where he is limiting himself and to overcome this, which is necessary for personal growth. Feelings get uncovered, painful memories, and so on, but in general the beginning will be hard because the first thing that appears is what has been repressed for so long. Everyone carries around beliefs and convictions that serve a certain purpose in life, but that also are limiting. So far this man I illustrated here has no big problems: he works through whatever comes up with a positive mind, knowing that it's just a matter of time until he lets go of old fear and beliefs he doesn't need any longer.

Now let's see how this man would be affected by practicing "psychic self defense" as some people advocate it.

Situation one: in his meditations, he has strange feelings and uncomfortable images in his mind. The solution would be: experience those feelings, learn what they have to tell, and see how they diminish on their own then. The PSD approach would be: "this could be a psychic attack, a 'neg' feeding off you. surround yourself with a protective shield and learn how to fend off attackers"
Situation two: during an astral projection, the person encounters something that appears as a scary being to him. The solution would be: "boo, what's that? so this is what my mind likes to project and to perceive, interesting... let's sort that out with myself". The PSD approach would be: "that's a daemon who want's to steal your energy, or worse. try to kill him as long as you can!"

You can imagine other situations on your own, but you see where this is going. Where a natural approach to explore those things in a calm and positive way would do the job, the fear and negativity instilled by people who like to 'fight' and 'attack' for whatever reason does nothing to alleviate the problem - in fact it makes it worse! Where's the sense in projecting your fear outwards and then attacking them? People who suffer need help and guidance to overcome those things and grow by doing that. They do NOT profit in any way from only hearing about daemons, attacks, vampires and so on, because the latter are all natural phenomena (although different from what they seem to be). They are no problem except if you make it one for you. So the statement by which I end this preliminary channeling (a teaser, so to speak) is:

Nothing can harm you except yourself.
"Psychic Self Defense" as it is preached here does more harm than good.

Whoever thinks otherwise is encouraged to give his contribution here and to discuss those issues with the guides who are channeled by Edi and Fuzziwig at this present time."




I'd like to clarify that Fuzziwig is in the same position as I am, meaning that he has a personal guide he knows and trusts. He too was trained to be an accurate channeler, and I am happy to have him at my side here; we will be glad to relay the guides' perspective and comments on everything you bring forward in response to what has been said above.

With love and light,
  Edi