The Astral Pulse

i know that there is more to existence than the physical -but god? seems so far advanced from  where we are that we should not even speculate. i was just in a used book store- so much on the subject-rudolf steiner wrote volumnes, the urantia book, eastern guru's by the dozens,  it was enough!!!!!!! buddha was smart-he would not even go there. my favorite poster from the sixties was the big smiling face of meher baba with DON'T WORRY-BE HAPPY at the bottom.
to make it even more complicated some people think we were created by an alien race!

Hi, good questions.

I as long as I can remember, I have believed in a ying/yang theory sort of as good and evil. It was my research into magick, that really first convinced me of a God. Ceremonial magick, that allows an establishment of that link solidified it for me.

Now for the "proof" as it exists for me. I have been "touched", by both God and Jesus. Not in any "chosen" way. Just when I was ready to let them in. One time while our pastor was giving prayers to help us, and another time meditating on the holy trinity. I can, the majority of the time make a connection to the divine, and get specific fellings in church. I have never had a time where I felt like my prayers were "unheard", and have generally have responses from almost immediate to a gradual change in the course of events. It depends on what I am asking. Once I accepted, acknowledgement was more definate.

For solid proof, look at things like the core samples they are taking of the earth. At one point, the whole earth flooded. This is seen in the sedimentation. Something that is interesting, is most scientists trying to "re-create" life from scratch also believe in the divine.

It seems to me that the majority of magickal systems have very strong relegious connections.

Any way, thats my 2 cents.

Ides315

Thank you for your responce.  At least you believe because you had an experience, not just because you were told.  That is the only thing that really bugs me.  People who can believe in some thing so fully with out any kind of experience or feeling.

"For solid proof, look at things like the core samples they are taking of the earth. At one point, the whole earth flooded. This is seen in the sedimentation. Something that is interesting, is most scientists trying to "re-create" life from scratch also believe in the divine."

Actually for a lot of scientists the idea of a global flood was not in question most of the time.  But I know the real question for them is when.  A sudden rise in temp causeing the polar caps to melt would then cause the Ice Age.  Eventually the caps would reform and balance restored.  What they are really interested in about this is was there a great flood before or after the Ice Age.  This would point very heavily in one direction or the other as to the truth of certain major events of the bible.


ralphm
"i know that there is more to existence than the physical -but god? seems so far advanced from where we are that we should not even speculate. i was just in a used book store- so much on the subject-rudolf steiner wrote volumnes, the urantia book, eastern guru's by the dozens, it was enough!!!!!!! buddha was smart-he would not even go there. my favorite poster from the sixties was the big smiling face of meher baba with DON'T WORRY-BE HAPPY at the bottom.
to make it even more complicated some people think we were created by an alien race!"


So do you understand my asking the question?  You seem to be a like minded individual so let me ask you this.  God create the universe? God created man?  The average person might say yes.   So did God create aliens?  Or did God just create Earth or the Milky Way?   Here is my thought.  Many people tend to believe and say that "aliens in general" are far more advanced than us both technolically and spiritually.  Technologicall I can see this.  Spirituall no.   I look at it this way, "if" God created the universe he created aliens, and if they are so spiritually advanced they would know this concept as well, correct?  So why all the abduction stories of rectile probbing and wierd experimentation?  Would they not think that we are all Gods creatures and in would be bad to treate any thing in that manner?  This leads me to think that well if they do this because they found out that there is no God.  Or he did not create them, and if he did not create them then he did not create the entire universe.  What if he create just the our galaxy?  Then either A) there are a multitutde of Gods out there= number of known galaxies, or B) God is or was a living creature capable of creating such life=technologically advanced, or God is an alien, as in we came from another planet or civilization.  But you know in the end it is going to be the least likely answer.  Things of this magnitude always are.

David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

Greetings,       Why,      " The Wasp plant"

Regards Steve

i just read this, from carlos casteneda's the active side of infinity. i think it appliesto the discussion.
Infinity is everything that surrounds us. The sourcerers of my lineage call it infinity,the spirit, the dark sea oof awareness.What put you and i together was the intent of infinity.it is impossible to determine what this intent of infinity is, yet it is there, as palpable as you and i are. Sourcerers say that it is  a tremor in the air. The advantage of sourcerers is to know that the tremor in the air exists, and to aquiesce to it without any further ado. For sourcerers, there's no pondering, wondering, or speculating. They know that all they have is the possibility of merging with the intent of infinity, and they just do it.  

God. does that word mean a being who created everything and is more powerful than the entire race of humanity could ever hope to achieve? or is a god merely a very powerful entity that can do things that most people couldn't hope to do in their most insightful and "spiritually connected" moments?

for me, both are true, and so i differentiate between then using the capitalized version for the first definition, and the lowercase for the second.

why do i believe in God? i am pretty damned sure i met him once. i won't go into ALL the details since it is fairly personal (and rather humilitating). but around two years after i was baptized, an event occured in my life that put my soul into such complete despair that it felt as though my body would die on me. and the physical pain of the experience prompted me to pray to God to end the pain by either stopping it or by killing me. after a minute or two of this, everything stopped. i couldn't feel my body anymore, nor the pain. i realised i was looking upward at the sky whereas previously i was looking down at the ground. but everything was pitch black. as i looked around, i saw a hole in the sky. it was weird. so i tried to look through the hole, but i couldn't because it felt as though there was some sort of "screen" preventing something from coming through from the other side. i could "feel" into the hole though, and what i felt was what must have been heaven. white light everywhere. (there are more details to the area behind the hole, but i won't post them because that would take up too much space.) i could also see a being who was so powerful that even with the screen in place, the feeling of his authority and presence was almost overwhelming. I believe it was God. he said something to me, and then it ended and i was back in my body looking down at the earth, with the pain subsided to the point where it was a mere inconvenience.

and that is why i believe in God.

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

This is a very good question and I am glad everyone is being responsible with it. First let me say that I respect everyone's opinion and Ideas so do not let anything I say offend anyone as it is not intended that way.

I believe that there is a Creator, a God if you wish. I have grown to dislike the word god because to me it brings images of an old man sitting in a shining place dictating events and what not. I do not see God as this or what most people see this being as. God is everything. We are all part of God just that on this low plane we do not see our connection as well. The higher up you move the more the connection is clear until at the highest level you find "God" which is total oneness of all things. I will leave it at this as I do not have time to go into more detail and it is really not that important. I do not want to upset anyone either so this is good enough.

As to why I believe this. It just seems to fit in with my search for now. I do not believe in just accepting what I have been told either. I feel that everyone should search openly. This is what I have done and so far this is what I have found. I am still open and this idea can change. What is important is not to stop searching, build a wall and say this is how it is. We must keep searching and growing and be open to finding new truths.

I do not belive in a beeing supream to al others pulling the strings.
Some people say that god is the only logical explanation to evolution and the creation of the matter, but in my opinion it dosn´t explain anything. After al it´s just pushing the question one step futher back, for who created god?
I think that we are parts of a greater energy, and that that energy is made up of all living things.. but not a personal god.

Felix


-- Love is the Law - Love under Will --

Hi Felix

The same rings true for me also & the main trouble I have with the whole God concept is the chicken & the egg theory, who came first nothingness or God?
If God came first, how did nothingness produce a multidimensional, omniscient being? Nature isn't like that, it does not start with producing omniscient beings, it starts simple.

I'm not sure where I stand on this one as I don't believe either creation or evolution is entirely responsible for our existence. If there are aliens in who's image where they created? Do they believe as a lot of religous people here on earth do, that God was created in "their" image & as far as they know are justified in doing whatever they please if they are monotheistic like many here on earth, created in "their" image, giving them the impression that their actions reflect the wishes of their God.

Good journeys all

Mobius

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mobius:


The same rings true for me also & the main trouble I have with the whole God concept is the chicken & the egg theory, who came first nothingness or God?
If God came first, how did nothingness produce a multidimensional, omniscient being? Nature isn't like that, it does not start with producing omniscient beings, it starts simple.

---

Hehe! I hope the irony was not lost on everyone else.... Obviously nature doesnt start off simple if it started with God, and if it started with God then we were created and therefore nature doesnt start simple anyway... Or if god doesnt exist then it did start off simple but thats not to worry because nothing was created.. which makes that comment null, void and incredibly contradictory, ironic and everything else that is somehow connected to those two words. :D

So far everyones belief on God has been based on personal experiences etc.. Please someone stand up and provide some logical evidence.. its much more fun to refute :)

- Ashfo

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"You are First Cause. You are a portion of the great energy. And you, yourselves are thought manifestations of what you think you are."
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Hey Ashfo

Not sure what your on about there mate, are you saying you have evidence that you have seen God or know God? You said that "Obviously nature doesn't start simple if it started with God".  Doesn't & started are used in the past tense, supposed knowledge is presumed about Gods existence. You said you wanted someone to stand up provide some logical evidence, on what? God? surely you jest, no-one scientific, religous or otherwise has come up with logical evidence in our human existence, so I wouldn't expect it to turn up in a corner of an Astral forum.

Do you have any logical evidence Ashfo? As stated on the first two lines of this topic, it was intended for debate, how can that occur if you demand logical evidence on such a enigmatic subject?

Good journeys all

Mobius

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mobius:

I'm not sure where I stand on this one as I don't believe either creation or evolution is entirely responsible for our existence. If there are aliens in who's image where they created? Do they believe as a lot of religous people here on earth do, that God was created in "their" image & as far as they know are justified in doing whatever they please if they are monotheistic like many here on earth, created in "their" image, giving them the impression that their actions reflect the wishes of their God.

---

Do you think that God has an image? If so is it a physical image or the "image" of consciousness?

I find it totally unbelieve that God could have a physical form so there could be no physical image to make man or alien.

You know this is one of the reasons I like Star Trek so much.  Every race seemed to have a god, and they were all so wildly different and all resposible for all life.  One saying kill the other saying don't.  Then there were the Q.  Were they God and possibly every ones God?

"So far everyones belief on God has been based on personal experiences etc.. Please someone stand up and provide some logical evidence.. its much more fun to refute :)

- Ashfo"


  There in also lays the problem.  Personal experience is logical evidence for that person.  Is there nothing that you believe based only on an experience?  I personally can think of several things that I believe not because I have scientific data to support it but because I have experienced it.  I know, feel, think, and believe that certain things exist based only on an experience.  But since I have not experienced God I can not prove to myself of the existance of such.  I have experienced things that would refute the laws of physics.  I do not know how it happened but it happened.
  I would go into too much technical detail but for those who know what cooling towers, chillers, and flat plates are.  Normal, towers to chiller or flat plate, then chillers to building, right.  No I had, Building to chillers, then to flate plate, then to towers.  It was 100+ DegF out side and I had 45 DegF water in the cooling towers and over 80 DegF going to the building.  The chiller was running backwards.  Normally imposible but it was happening.

David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

It may be that evolution was controled to a certain extent by the group consiousnes of the astral part of al the living. Look at our society, each individual is doing it´s own thing and is a separet beeing, but still there is a whole theing called society, that is more or less inteligently controled by the whole group... even thoug each individual only plays a tiny part. It might be the same with what we cal god- that might just be the "mas is bigger than the separate parts". The inteligence that contoles all might be this cluster of all souls...  
I guess this makes littels sense.. but I´m tired and can´t put it in better words..
Hm..  just look at an ant societ, and I guess you get the point. Each ant is only an ant, but still the ant society as a collective is a inteligent beeing in a way..

Felix

-- Love is the Law - Love under Will --

but do not ants have an ant queen, distant bell?  :P

as to logical debate: well to logically argue there is a God then you would have to change your thinking on how things come into existance. by the laws of the universe, nothing is created or destroyed. but how does a mere human know anything about the laws that govern a God? perhaps God created finite time and space for us and because that is the only thing we have ever known, that is all we can believe in. perhaps we are all just in one of those small "snow domes", cut off from infinity by finiteness created for us by someone else.  :)  nothing illogical there, is there?

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

Very interesting ideas here... has anyone read the Kybalion? Try http://bobert1.home.mindspring.com/kybalion.html --- it has a good philosophical description of the creator

But until you have come to be at one with God, we could never really be able to concieve how things are from God's point of view.

It is very interesting to see how my idea of God has evolved. From going to church at a young age, beliving God to be more king-like and human, to not beliving in anything, to re-discoverng the creative force in me, universal laws, and proving with that interaction my being part of greater being.

I prefer to think of God now more as the Tao, the Way things go, and from where they came.

I have a few thoughts want to state.  But first of all, please excuse my bad English. :)

1.
Definition of god?  Everyone has his or her own god...
- One and the only one God? Or one of all gods?
- All mighty? Or just extremely powerful?
- The humanize God as in the Bible or non-humanize like Universe or Tao?
- God creates human being and this earth and this universe and all dimensions "ALONE" or these all create by different Gods.

2.
If you believe in god that show you a miracle, is that mean 'he' is the same god who create earth, universe and all dimension?  Put it the other way around, if you believe in god that create all dimension, does it mean that you have to believe that 'he' create human being also?

3.
If you receive a miracle.  Is that miracle give by the god you believe in or other god/entity just near by?

4.
Do we have to believe in the highest God, or just the god that will look after us.

5.
Do we believe in God or the person/book represent God.


Ok for me.  I don't believe in God, but I do believe there are gods.  I don't trust in "Science" neither.  Well, I believe science finding that look right but always left my eye open.

I think believe in Science is just like believe in God.  Science only gives explanation but not the Facts.  And never trust science explanation to something that is unknown or unseen.

I think there are two level of god we are talking about.  The first level is that god is an entity.  The second level of God is refer to law of physics, math, Tao, rules of cause&effect, universe itself.

I believe that the Christian god really exist.  But he isn't the only god exist.  Just the same to gods in all other cultures.  But it isn't matter, as long as the god you believe in can protect you.  I prefer to believe to small god that can help and not to God that doesn't even look at me.

Just by 2 cents

Hi Guys

Some good points in there & interesting concepts, the multiple Gods concept is one that seemed to disapear from mankind as the centuries progressed. Many cultures around the world seemed to adopt this multiple Gods concept in ancient times e.g  ancient Greeks, Egyptians, Olmecs, Mayans, Aztecs, Romans, Indians.

Why they all dissapeared off the scope over the centuries, really interests me. Gotta go, forgot about rehearsals, I'll continue when I get back.

Good journeys all

Mobius

Perhaps my post came across wrong...

Mobius.. It's hard to explain my feelings on your comment.

You said
"If God came first, how did nothingness produce a multidimensional, omniscient being? Nature isn't like that, it does not start with producing omniscient beings, it starts simple. "

I was just pointing out that if God did come first, then obviously nature didnt start simple right? Becuase it created this huge omniscient being.

And if God didnt come first, then nature does start simple...


Anyhow, of course there isnt any irrefutable evidence for God... someone will always find an excuse for anything if they want to, but I'm interested in debating the Creation theory or some other hotly debated "God Evidence" theory.

I think I should also point out that I'm not an atheist - I believe there is probably something, someone or, well, something. I just like tossing backwards and forwards the arguments.

I do believe in Marian Apparitions btw, however I dont think these are necessarily evidence pointing towards Gods existence but rather points towards Thought manifestation - this thread here. http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=&TOPIC_ID=1099

- Ashfo

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"You are First Cause. You are a portion of the great energy. And you, yourselves are thought manifestations of what you think you are."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

so ashfo (points accusingly) YOU DO BELIEVE IN A GOD! Nature (just kidding. lol) you said that nature created God and man (or at least implied it), so that means that, by your logic, nature is the "God" that created all and from whence all things come.  :)  (just joking around there if you didn't figure it out)

but still, the people on this board believe in psionics, magick, pranic, reiki, kundalini, oobe's, the astral (and its various levels), and a TON (canadian tonne :)   ) of other things, and yet some scoff at the mere idea that there might be a god. i find that kinda funny. normal people can't even fathom the things we talk about on here, yet we can't even fathom a diety of complete power.  :)

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

I just look at all of these things as the nexted step in human EVOLUTION.  A couple of more generations at will be common place.


David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

Doesn't nature imply the "nature" of god; ie, the laws that make up creation.

Laws such as cause & effect, duality & polarity, etc. In that case nature can work magic and miracles which are simply the Universal laws; and then there is the consciousness behind nature, which to some is God, and to other's is it's own being, Gaia.

God is then what came first, the "prime mover" - God is beyond all laws (because God put them into place to begin with) we can only "be at one with god", or be filled with the essence of God. Which is why some beings appear to us, to be God. But they are not.

The multiple gods, where, according to the other history, a group of beings called the Annukai who claimed leadership over Earth, and claimed to be "Gods" - but they where false gods.

G,day Ashfo

What I am saying is, since there is no proof of any God/s now or ever in our human history or what came first God or nothingness, you can't say obviously it DOES start complex, as there is no facts to back that comment only speculation.

All I am saying is look at nature, on this planet for example what came first? A beautiful blue ball called earth suddenly comes into existence with the top of the food chain human predator popping in from nowhere, before all the other organisms that needed to be in place to support that entity?

So lets rewind a little to the creation or arrival of this singular God or multiple Gods on the scene. Would a omnipotent, omniscient, multidimensional being come into existence first?  Before any infastructure needed to support that entity? Or would things start off simple & over the eons of time produce different organisms or atoms  that interact with & benefit from anothers existence?

Us humans are not single cell organisms, so why would we come from just one God & for the past 2 thousand years it seems only males, it seems to contradict the laws of nature. It seems to me if you are going to believe in any God or Gods you would think there is a female aspect to it all. Don't get me wrong I believe there are beings out there of immense power, who's knowledge & abilities far surpass my understanding of their concepts, but just one God controlling the entire universe as it exists, simultaneously running everything & a male at that, sounds a bit suspect & smells of manipulation & provokes peoples fears of their mortality.

Ashfo on your link you said " Frank was saying thought is A primary energy"
& you believed "thought is THE primary energy". What was in place so that those thoughts could be in place to begin with? The thoughts had to have an original starting point. I understand the concept of thoughts manifesting something out of nothing, but you have to have something that started those thoughts, to perpetuate them, what creates the thought's?

Good journeys all

Mobius

If there is a Ultimate Creator, he will not be the one we can reach.  The level between human and Ultimate Creator is to far away.

I was reading an interesting article on one of the beliefs of Gnostics & how they believed a demonic entity whose main goal is to keep humans trapped in matter. As opposed to say the Christian faith of dying & being united with God in heaven. The "Archons" as called by the Gnostics (God & his agents) apparently feed on loosh or soul energy & return humans to the earth in an endless cycle or re-incarnation so that they can feed off our energy after the physical body dies. A slightly different version of our livestock methods e.g.  as far as the cows know, they are walking around in nice fields, eating nice things & the human comes & relieves the pain of a swollen udder & provides a treat.

It's the first time I heard that story before & havn't delved much into the Gnostic's beliefs & concepts, but that was a bizarre concept indeed. The article also implied that Monroe pinched a lot of his ideas from the Gnostic's or that he had experiences or beliefs as stated in "journeys out of the body" & " far journeys", that were strikingly similar to Gnostic's synopsis of the world view. I must get a hold of some Gnostic books & check it out for myself. The whole idea reminds me of the movie "Dark city" for some reason.

Good journeys all

Mobius

God is neither male nor female. As one has already pointed out that idea is absolutely absurd. The claim that God is male in some religions points to the intent of controling the masses by putting males first. Also if God is male then there would have to be a female. Otherwise what is the point in having a sex. If there is a female then there is more than one God. If there are male and female then they must reproduce, hence there are even more Gods, unless "the God" killed all the other gods so he could be the only one. But God is not a man or woman such as we are. God is formless and exists beyond a physical understanding. God is also beyond time. Where God exists there is no time, or it is all time at once. So the agruments about what came first, how did God come about are flawed. God is outside of time as we know it.  God always existed for without time how is there a beginning and an end?

there. all gone  :)

err. wait a minute. this wasn't a debate. it was a cainam asking for information. my bad. sorry.

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

Right.  So please can we get back to it and not debate so that those who might share in thier experiences and knowlage can do so with out feeling the need to defend ones beliefs?

Please any one who wishes to put forth thier reasons and or experiences please do so and we will not debate them.


David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

I'ts probably a bit hard for anyone who has a particular belief or bond with their God to come forth & expose their feelings after our little philosophical exchanges, so a new post should probably be generated free of debate or the word debate, so we might gain insight into a persons particular faith.

I would like to continue the talks we have had on this subject & it's intracacy's, as I don't have ANY of the answers I must profess, but by exploring the paradigms each person puts forth, we may all get closer to our own truth & learn some interesting things along the way, after all this same debate/discussion has been going on for thousands of years & goes on every week day in universities around the world & they still havn't got any closer to any truth, so all we can do is speculate for the time being & maybe uncover something ' different '  in here.

Good journey's all

Mobius

Sorry I did not mean to aid in the spiraling of getting this off topic. My words were never ment to be negative or accusing. I could have choosen a better way to write my last post. I merely wanted to get people thinking.

Hi all

We might as well continue our discussions on the God/Creator subject as it is unlikely an entirely religous perspective will be put forth, not that it's a problem if someone does.

For a few thousand years now we have all been wondering about a God, Gods or a creator & have looked towards religous institutions & the pious for answers, in modern times we have science as well as religous institutions telling us how things are, with no-one having any concrete evidence & we are still no closer to any truths.

Three basic view points stand today, none with any real evidence; (a) Creationism  (b) Evolution  (c) Alien intervention.

Before I start, I just want to point out what I said in my last post, I don't have any of the answers to any of this, but my curious nature prevents me from accepting anything just because it's in print or someone of authority said so, I am not against anyone's beliefs but my own.

Creationism : First of all there is the premise that a singular God exists, coming into existence with complete omniscience, multi- dimensional vision & all it's needs for sustanance were met instantly. Since there is no proof & we will never realistically get it, there is no point re-quoting religous text that have dubious beginnings & no proof anyway, just hearsay.

Sounds like our old God mate is quite a scientist, but never went to his lectures on morals & ethics it seems. It could create our universe instantly, the earth came next & in a six day period it created light, even though it allready created the universe, minus the sun it seems. It also created every orgainism on the planet in 6 days? hmmm. It seems that if we had an all knowing God, it wouldn't have the need to learn through experience. Adam was created & apparently Eve out of him, even though biologically in the womb we all start out as women, hence the nipples & males evolve out of the female blueprint. Straight away there was a problem as eve ate an apple, which was forbidden fruit, a flaw in the system allready! Then Cain is allowed to kill his own brother & somehow finds a wife in a land that was supposed to be empty but for them, other Gods handy work?

Then there was the Satans who liked earth women so much they HAD them & created giants, which were deemed abominations & the satans were expelled to earth & motality. The Soddom & Gammorhea incident, why let a homosexual city come into existence & then send messengers to destroy it? Wouldn't God have that power & forsight itself, without needing others to do the dirty work?

I have to cut this short as something has come up, but I will expand more on the Creationism/ Evolution/ Alien Intervention theories later, until then.

Good journeys all

Mobius

Creation or Evolution?

Why do science and religion fight to no end when it comes to the origins of life? Science and religion can actually go hand in hand if they would stop fighting.  Did a god create everything? Did everything just happen and then start evolving. Science has basicly prooven that evolution exists, to an extent anyway. Things evolve to fit their environment. Environments change so life has to change to continue on or else it dies. So if you believe in a god then why would you find this offensive? Do you not think that the Creator of all things would give life the ability to change to better fit its evironment so that the creation could go on? Would you find it so offensive if the Creator did start out small and allow tiny organisms to evolve into larger animals, and animals evolve into more and more "intelligent" beings? If this were true would it make this creation and Creator any less than if the Creator just said let there be and it was there?
I guess the big question would be is the Christian Bible literal or just symbolic? Even if it is literal and lets for just one moment say that evolution is true and that there is a God. Would this God tell early man how he did everything? Do you think that man would have understood evolution? Or any other method that a Creator may have used? If you believe in a Creator or a God, does it really matter how he did it?
Maybe religious people fight science because if one part of the Bible is prooven to have a flaw then they will have to question the entire Bible. This maybe good, but if you believe in the Bible and part is not entirely true it would not make the entire thing false. It would just mean that the interpretation is wrong and needs to be reviewed.
Do I believe in Creation or Evolution? I do not know. I believe in proof and being rational. Is a very old document proof or is a new one that takes two things and makes an assumption proof? I guess to me personally I do not really care. Yes I will always wonder and would like to know, but I do not feel we will ever have the whole truth along with the proof in my life time if ever on the physical plane. I guess that this is true for David's questions. How do you proove there is no god? How do you proove there is? Maybe the question we should be asking ourselves is: Is it important if there is a god or not?

I do not know what to say about Aliens being our origins. If aliens did plant life on earth then where did they come from? Who created them?

G,day mate

Not sure if you were addressing me or not, but I agree with nearly everything you said. I shouldn't have started that post without finishing it as I have another 2 parts to add to it. Personally I don't find the existence of a God, creator or evolutionary concepts offensive, I'm just putting down some thoughts. I have a lot of work to do at present & will continue my last post tonight when I get home. Just throwing around ideas & I hope people don't take personal offence as my intention is not to bring down any pre-established beliefs or institutions, just to talk about them.

Good journeys all

Mobius

Mobius, I was not really addressing you directly. I was just expanding on your post with some ideas. I look forward to reading the rest of your ideas.

I think a good question to ask is, how many are still in the religion they were born into?

I was born into Christainity. My parents were not hardcore Christains but they were and still seem to be strong believers. So of coarse as I was growing up I went to a Christain church and pretty much learned to accept that it is the "Truth". Paying attention to the lessons I was taught not to question the validity of the religion. How do you know it is right and true? You just have to have faith was the answer to the question. At the time it was an ok answer. But as I grew up and my mind wished to grow that answer no longer satisfied me. For the longest time I had to deal with the programming that was done to me making me believe I was bad for questioning. But one major question kept coming to me, what about other religions? Are they wrong since this one is suppose to be the only right one? Are they not told they are to have faith that their religions are right when questioned as well? Who is right? Who is wrong? Is everyone wrong? I felt there was more than just religion so I broke off from it to seek. I still value the lessons that religions have, but I have grown to believe that there is no "salvation" in them. If there was, why would a god create so many people and then allow so many different beliefs but only one is the way to stay out of eternal fire? Would he really create only to torture so much of the creation? I could not accept that.

That may not exactly answer the questions asked, but I feel it is valid to answer why I do not believe some things as much as it is to answer why I do believe some things.

Now I search for something that is real, something that I can believe in because I have proof, experience, and have rationally thought it through. It would seem that if you wish to discover what is beyond the physical you must go there. So astral projection and out of body experiences are a way to find fruth. But traveling out of body can be tricky and requires a lot of skill to see truth beyond the illusions that are there. But if you wish to find answers that is where they will be. Or that is my opinion on where they can be found.

G,day mate

Sounds like we have had some similar experiences growing up with religion & maybe I too should give some background into my involvement as I'm not against any prophets or Gods, they feel like family to me, it's just the establishments who sprung up in the name of these people or concepts, as they never asked for it & the very idea is what most of them stood against.

I lived in a very catholic/christian family, my mums side anyway. Church every Sunday or face the scorn of mum & God, my uncle was & still is a priest, my cousin went into the brotherhood & I became an alter boy, I was hooked, but somehow I knew inside that it was just my desire to fit in, to be like everyone else I spent the majority of my time with & for some selfish reasons as well, like wanting someone to be there to forgive wrongdoings & ensure a spot in Heaven or where ever land as long as I conformed to that belief system.

Most kids have that constant "why?" attitude but stop as soon as they realise that they could be made to look foolish for not knowing about something in front of their peers. For some reason I didn't care what my peers thought about me & I continued to ask "Why?", this started off the cracks in the walls of my belief system & I have been on a journey ever since. There was & still is only one thing I truly know about spirituality, the fact that I have a non physical body living inside & co-existing with a physical body.

Creationism : I think it is strange that the majority of the great prophets of the present & the past stood against the establishment of religous institutions & ammassing wealth in the name of those institutions to manipulate or even force compliance with their beliefs alienating those who don't.
Buddha ( 6th century BC), also known as Siddhartha Gautama, was born into a rich family of a northern indian ruler. After becoming aware of the suffering that occured outside the walls of his fathers palace, he became a wandering monk & for a while became a rigorous ascetic. He renounced extremes of both luxury & asceticism, he also ceased to believe in Gods. He founded a new order of monks but did not intend it to be a religion. His teachings were maintained by oral tradition for about 400 years before they were written down for the first time.
Jesus ( 4 BC - 27 AD ?) was to an extent a jewish teacher & prophet, revered by present christians as the son of God. Like confucius, he left no written works, what we know about him comes from accounts written at least a generation after his death. Was hated by the established jewish authorities & considered a trouble maker by both church & the occupying romans. He never tried to establish his own religion, church or tow the line with any belief system & try to enforce it.
" My uniform experience has convinced me that there is no other God than Truth. The only means for the realization of that truth is 'Ahisma' " ( the Hindu principle of harmlessness or non violence). Gandhi (1869- 1948).

The interpretations that followed these peoples lives evolved into something vastly different & contrary to the original concept. The main reason I feel, is yep here I go again, "MONEY". Parasites that attach to the host & drain them for all they have, for entirely selfish reasons. Today you hear about top paid actors & musicians saying that they agree they get paid too much, but if they don't the people promoting them will take much more than is necessary for themselves e.g Harrison Ford getting $ 40 million per film as opposed to a new actor who might get $50,000. Due to advancements in legal systems, copyrighting etc. Ford knows that the people wanting to use him would take $200 million & give him $50,000 if they could, using his image & personality for their own gain.
The thing with Jesus & Buddha is they had no idea how many would see their arrival on the scene as an opportunity to milk people of money, by pretending they had beliefs in alignment with their idol.

The point here is, most of the great prophets religous leaders of the past were not interested in pushing creationism, their main interests were just getting along with each other & encouraging people to do good things not because there was the likelihood of retribution from a God, but because that is what is the right thing to do.

I'd better cut my theorising short here, as I wanted to expand on the evolution & intervention concepts & I'm gettin sore, until later today.

Good journeys all

Mobius

Hi all again

Evolution : There is no doubt that some sort of evolution or adaption is taking place & it appears to be happening in every generation. At an atomic level the whole earth as far as we know recycles the same atoms over & over, which means that somehow atoms that exist on the planet in one form such as a tree or a fish or something cease to be & their atoms under the influence of some force, realign using some or all of their ingredients/atoms to produce a new something e.g. a human being.

At the molecular level is DNA (Deoxyribonucleic acid) , an amazing thing on it's own & was somehow known to ancient & present shamans to resemble what scientist know today as the double helix shape of DNA or two little serpents or snakes entwined with each other, basically looking like the medical symbol you see at chemists/pharmacies/hospitals & the kundalini symbol.

A study was performed by a guy called Jeremy Narby an anthropologist, to find out how isolated tribes in the amazon came to know about certain things, his book was called "The cosmic serpent". He wanted to know how they came up with their own brand of medicine, psychology & beliefs, similar to western medicines,  the knowledge however was gained through their own sources, their Shamans. They came up with compounds consisting of 2 or 3 varieties of plants to treat different ailments or to create a specific effect. In one case they made an OBE inducing compound which consisted of one plant that had incredible effects on the body & mind, but was neutralised in the stomachs acids, the second plant was to counteract this neutralizing effect & allow the first plants chemicals to be absorbed by the body. How did they know which plants to combine out of the 80,000 possible species in the amazon. Narby was told by the Shamans that the serpents inside them told them which plants to use! In fact the Shamans believed that the serpents were in every living thing & were basically the physical rulers of the earth. The same ones that ancient Olmecs, Mayans, Aztecs worshipped & the same ones revered by present day asians (the dragon) & Australian aboriginals (the serpent), coincidence?

At the cellular level there is single celled organisms & multicellular organisms & 3 main varieties of cells represent the majority of cells in the living world. Archaea, Bacteria & the Eukarya, a eukaryotic cell holds 1000 times the volume of the other two. Every gamete or sex cell of a multicellular organism forms into either a sperm or an egg, which in turn, develops into a fish, dog, horse, coral, humans, depending on their blueprint.

Scientists acknowledge that us humans share some similar DNA with other organisms on the planet, but so far Darwins missing link has not been found, i.e the fossilized remains of the link between man & apes, so far a satisfactory transition has not been proved. Primates have 48 chromosomes & us humans are considered vastly superior to them but have only 46 chromosomes, strange.

Arghh!!!! too much thinking, I'll have to get to the alien intervention tomorrow, until then goodnight, good day & good journeys all.

Mobius

Mobius,

   As always you have some interesting thoughts on this subject and I thank you for sharing.  Do you tend to lean towards any one particular thought on this or do you rather believe parts from each?  Or are perhaps like me who would like it much better to have some facts either through science or experience before "selling myself" on one particular view?
   Because of my experiences and way of thinking I tend to lean towards evolution.  This being largly since I have never seen/felt a god nor have I seen aliens, also I find it hard to believe almost all abduction stories.  Most things being a product of the times.  Heck look back 50 years and how they thought space suits would look.  They are nothing like what they actually use today.  They also thought that we would have gotten a lot farther than we have by now.  I am ofcourse not say that aliens don't exist, infact I have seen more evidence for aliens than I have god.  But I don't think they are doing all the wild experiements on us that some people may think.  

 I often wonder though what drives a person to feel the need to have a god or be part of some greater good.  I see this alot.  As people get old and near death they suddenly become highly religious.  Most have not seen or felt anything different but they feel death creeping up on them and feel the need to be "forgiven".  This ofcourse being so that they can die with a clear mind.   I personally don't feel I need an explination of what happens when I die.  I know my thoughts, I know my actions, I know what choices I have made and what the results are from them.  Currently I am still happy about the over all outcome.  Granted there are a few things that I would have like to do differently but I know that it is not possible, I have said my "sorries" to those people I have hurt already, and I know that asking for forgivness from a higher source will not change the lives of the people I have effected at all.  It changes only my view point on it.  But I feel that it does not make it any more or less okay.

I rambling again.....toodles.


David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

G,day Cainam

I don't lean towards anything I said in particular as science & religion is progressive, they both have huge innacuracies in their bibles & textbooks, that don't corroborate with any real facts, however they both stamp their feet on the ground & demand that this is how things are, when in reality any criticism of the paradigms from it's members or outsiders is stifled through their "peer review processes", so as not to step on anyones beliefs, pride or ego's. The reality of life is, things change & we have to be careful to realise that or be trapped in the past, prefering to believe in one particular thing because that's what feels comfortable, the unknown for many is what we tend to fear or predjudice, even hate, because those unknowns are not familiar to us.

I do like to experience things for myself or see at least some corroborating evidence or facts, I guess that's why I drifted out of religion, but I have never dismissed the idea of Gods or should I say highly advanced beings. Not because I hope to curry their favour, but because it's entirely plausable that there IS far more advanced beings than us humans out there. Two thousand years ago seeing a UFO would be an indescribable event, let alone getting to talk to the occupants of the craft. With technology like nothing ever seen before & their arrival from the sky or space would seem to them to be nothing other than Gods, especially if they came in human form. Today we have space travel ourselves & are not as likely to believe that something or someone arriving from outer space would be a God. The Nazca lines always puzzles me & no definate answer has been found to that riddle yet, but one fact remains, you can only see the drawings from an aircraft & the date of the drawings were determined to have been made long before humans were supposed to have any flying type transports.

I have family who believe they are Atheists (which I'm not), but will sometimes say " I am in control of everything in my life, but some things are beyond my control" or "certain things are Gods will" or " that storm was an act of God". So they still believe some higher force is responsible for things they don't understand as yet.

I like this passage from Marion Weinstein's "Positive magic" :
" Because religions are no longer relevant to some in modern life, they throw out the entire package, the religion & any idea of a God. I do not believe that rejecting all is a thoughtful act, nor even an effective one, in terms of personal development & psychic health. Too often people transfer their feelings of awe, fear & devotion to science or another authoritative system which still denies people's own sense of power, inventive thoughts & personal responsibility".

I don't know if I've seen a God as I wouldn't know what one looked like, unless I felt it somehow. I havn't seen an alien in the physical before either, well not the ones depicted in ET, close encounters, cocoon etc. anyway. I did encounter some sort of being in an OBE once, my moon experience I posted a while back, it was incredibly vivid & wasn't good, a serious encounter with a negative, that I sensed was far more advanced than I.

I believe if there is a God, there is more than one, at the minimum a male & a female type aspect, a yin & yang, furthermore, if there is a God/s & they are entirely good, there has to be a balance to ensure their purpose & growth continues but not unchecked. In nature when one species becomes too dominant it risks wiping itself out by the intense competitivness,increasing population & fast dwindling resources needed to live & a saturation point is reached, wiping out the majority until a balance is restored.

It doesn't matter to me either way anymore as I just try to do what is right, get on with everyone & keep an open & curious mind to everything. There is not much I can do about the fact that some day I will definately die, but I might as well find out about as many ideas, beliefs & concepts as I can & try to make as many well educated decisions as possible.

Until next time
Good journeys cainam

Mobius

That's why I started this topic.  Since my beliefs do not include an all superior being in control of my life.  I don't believe in predestination, however I do believe in fate.  And before you ask they are not the same thing.  Untilmately I decide whats going on.  I on the other hand do not make references to god.  As in "he is punishing me" or "It's god will"  or anything like that.   I sum up most of the things that I don't know about with the phrase "Life is funny like that!", or "That's what makes things interesting."  I do not blame god nor give him credit.  It just is.  

Although I have always thought it would be really funny if some alien race showed up and said we were all crazy and they put us he and had the "photos" to prove it.  "See there's Pual and Helga, we started with them."  "Here is us given the Microwave to science." and so on.  I would find that really amusing.


David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

Yes, good topic Cainam, thanks for starting it & for the reading I've done because of it.

I like to think that if there is any higher being/s looking over us, they are giving us good advice, but who knows, I guess we'll find out soon. The alien intervention thing has sprung up more & more lately & there's quite a few institutions established all around the globe now that either directly reference aliens or redescribe them so as not to cause panic. The Raeliens openly say aliens, from where I don't know. Others like the freemasons are supposed to have beliefs about the Pleidians, the Rosicurian order if I remember right, had something similar. Many other little cults & sects believe in some sort of connection with Pleides, Sirius & Orion, the Wingmakers site says that we were visited by ourselves or other humans from the future, a huge site with a fairly complex story & very interesting. Things are moving quickly these days & our information & technology advancements will hopefully allow us to check further into the claims of these institutions.

The hubble telescope recently viewed a galaxy that looked similar to ours & had planets & all, some even in positions relative to their sun to theoretically support life, maybe it's the dudes from battlestar gallactica looking over at earth from their planet thinking 'mmmm, cool, if we stuff this planet we can always go there, they wont mind, will they? we look just like them', hehe.

Thanks again mate & look forward to some more semi-postulation, quite enjoyable, good journeys & good day sir.

Mobius

Hi guys

I just thought I would add these links I thought were thought provoking & I like to see information from everyones viewpoint, these links do not represent any particular beliefs I have, I just like to see what various people are thinking about. These sites are pretty big & contain heaps of info on points raised on this topic, so have fun & let me know what you think or if you have any similar links you know of.

Revolution against Evolution
http://www.rae.org/

Anthropology Human origins
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5579/TA2.html

Ancient Astronauts
http://ufos.about.com/cs/ancientastronauts/index_1.htm

Raeliens
http://www.rael.org/int/english/index.html

Wingmakers
http://www.wingmakers.com

Gnosis
http://www.astrologyforthepeople.com/

2012
http://www.2012.com.au/Site.A.html

Talk origins
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/other-links.html

Good journeys all

Mobius

That was some interesting reading.  

I found it odd that some of the changes mentioned by some, that are going on in the human body are things that I am experiencing.  So the question comes.  Are they right?  Or is based not so much on the past but what is happening to a lot of people now?  Sort of a transition, an awakening of the mind, for every one.  Interesting.  

We shall see.


David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

Hey Cainam

I guess, that's the question everyone asks of any religion, belief or faith they get invoved with, to get to the bottom of any of these beliefs & faiths & to prove or disprove them, would cost thousands, even millions, have you chasing things all over the world & you would need one hell of a security clearance to get to the heart & genesis of the info.

 Each & every one of those sites have some element of truth to them & for all we know fact, I still pick up the bible & 1/2 of it has words that make you think, " that fits with me pretty good". Even if one of those sites were true, how exiciting, but to be fair, the bible & science have had the weight of multimillion dollar academic scrutiny, ripping apart every statement made by the other, whereas, these guys aren't attracting the big bucks that would attract the time & attention of other religions & science.

So as readers, the best we can do is to see if we can cross check any of this info with existing sources.

Good journeys mate

Mobius

heres what I lean to now,I believe that god is love,love is god.I dont think he is either male or female unless thats what you see god as.God can take any shape or form.It all depends on what you want god to be.So many people believe in a him and put so much effort into prayer.

That has to make some kind of an impression on the astral.Somewhere up high there is a great source of energy.This explains to me why some peoples prayers do get answered.And I also believe that god is everything.God is far to small a word for what this being really is.God is infinity.

I dont think there is just one universe.Or all the dimensions that we know excist.I think they are infinite also.I think everthing is just a part of something bigger,and it keeps on going both ways forever.This is god to me.We were designed by love,for only the purpose to love.Thats why when we start to hate.We feel like crap.Its not what we were made to do.Just you cant have good without evil.I read somewhere that everything would collapse on to itself without this balance.

And I feel there more than enough proof that satan exists.But not a red devil with a fork.haha,Everytime I think of satan.I see "him"as the gay  red dude from south park and it cracks me up.But all you have to do is look around and you will see "him" in people.You will see "him" on the news.You know how crazy the world is right now thats satan.But all you have to do is change your point of view and you will see only god/love..I didnt come here for an arguement.I only wanted to share what I believe.

Money is what is worshipped most in the world.And that is like bowing down to satan himself..lol.....I hope you understand what im trying to say here,and dont mind the humor.Im just in one of those moods.

These are all the answers I feel I need to know.If we knew all the answers.Life would be very dull.And if we had even better technology.Someone would end up miss using it for there own gains.And we would be all disintigrated by some crazy plasma ray of death..lol

I read some of your posts,its too hot in here.I couldnt read them all.But I liked some of your ideas.

You know this is a good topic to discuss.Because we all could be wrong.So there really is no use to argue about it. :)especially when its 100 degrees in your room........:)





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"WAKE UP!WAKEUP!WAKE UP AND LOOK AROUND YOU!WERE LOST IN SPACE AND THE TIME IS OUR HOME"
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G,day mate

Not sure who you were addressing there, but I agree with a lot of what you say. Arguements? I didn't think we were arguing about this & I hope others havn't declined to post because they feel it could become too hot.

Please, everyone & anyone put forth your ideas & beliefs, there is so much we could all learn.

Personally, I don't have any of the answers, all I can work with is what I know, from either physical information sources, probably no where near being a primary source. Or information gleaned off the astral in one way or another, which is not easily verified.

I would love to hear from any asian members of this forum, especially if they are in an asian country, as to what guides they see, the stuctures on the astral, higher & lower entities, encounters with any asian deities & is there many authors or institutions they know of that deals with OBE,s & the astral planes?

Good journeys all

Mobius

I remember watching this really funny episode of "The Kids in the Hall", is that right?  Any how.  They did a little bit about heaven and hell.  

There was this large group of people all standing around and this tour guide guy comes up and starts introducing them to hell and thier eternal fate.  I remember this one guy piped up, "But I've been a devote Christian all my life, there must be some kind of mistake."

"No theres no mistake."

"But then why am I here."

"It was the Mormons.  Yeah, they were right all along.  Well, sorry, that's just how these things work."

I thought it was funny when I saw it.  I couldn't stop laughing.

David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

hey mobius,how are ya!
I didnt mean anyone in particular.Just kind of a reminder to everyone and myself as well.After all I havnt even read the whole thread.But I know how this can sometimes turn out.Kind of like whats going on in the middle east for ages.

Heres some more ideas Ive got.I dont really think it matters if you believe in a god or not.If you are a good person you will end up in a good place.The belief systems that have been implanted in our minds.They are much to complicated.They make it so hard for people to live with themselves.According to the bible most the things we do and like are all sins.

Sorry I dont mean to offend anyone.Im just saying what I feel.Im just using the bible because thats what I was forced to grow up with.And Im guessing alot of you are the same.Most people that go to church  every sunday.Are only going because they are afraid if they dont,they will wind up burning in hell for eternity.To me this is wrong why bother going.You should go only if you really want too.This is only the tip of a very big iceburg.

I may be making a blanket statement with that.But I feel it is somewhat true.And ive got other very good reasons why I stopped going.(no I didnt get molested by a priest,dont even go there..lol)But im just going to bite my tongue on that...:)But I was wrong to stop believing in god,for 'he' didnt have anything to do with whats going on..I believe that jesus lived and he was a great man.But he was not the son of god,he was the son of man.He was just one of us.One who could only love.

He was given special powers by a higher being.Because back than they didnt have the things we do now.That was the only way people would listen.Im sure you would listen too if you saw him walking on water.I know I would.I dont really think the ten commandments came from god.And all the other rules.They dont even go along with jesus's words.

Why couldnt they make it simple.Love yourself and everyone and everything.Forgive and forget,always do your best,dont assume things about people,something like this everybody would be so happy and the world would be great.Hah Im dreaming again...:)see if you do this things there is no way you can hurt someone  intentionaly..you dont need all those rules.They are just a recipe for disaster.

Ive spent a long time trying to get away from my beliefs.But its finally paying off.I have a hard time killing bugs these days...heheh,if I see one around my house and my girlfriend freaks out.Ill take the time and let it outside.But this is me.Hey I like to be this way.I believe in karma.I know nothing bad will happen if I kill a bug.But I think how would I feel if someone just stepped on me on purpose.Life is life not matter how big or how small this is how I feel.Mosquitos those are a dif. story..lol

Ah a few more things.I dont think it matters if there is a god or not.The only thing that matters is that you believe.When you believe something.Whatever it is,it becomes very real to you.I think our minds are more powerful than we can imagine.If you feel you are already strong enough and dont need god.I think you should listen closely right now.We have all these useless fears implanted in our minds.Even the strongest people are afraid.They just do a better job at hiding it..:)We cant get away from this.

If one day you find yourself paralyzed with fear.Why not believe there is a god there pushing you on and guiding you.The stronger you believe the less you will fear and you will find yourself walking.And I think you can take this even further.If you can believe there is an army of god walking with you.I think you could take off and fly.(not literally)This is what I think faith really is.If you were on the astral I think you would actually see someone right there behind you.Maybe I get a little carried away.But I feel that there arent any limits.

This is why I believe now.I know that its only going to help me get further.So I ask you why not??Life can be easy sometimes.But sometimes it will kick your butt.And worst!Im sick of putting  it all on myself.Eventually all the people you love will die.I have trouble dealing with pets dying never mind people.So I am a believer..I dont think I am weak at all.Ive gotten this far all alone(my girlfriend only came to me a few years ago)and ive came close to killing myself,more than a few times in my past..But I never could,no matter how much it hurt.,I could just take it all on myself.Ive done it before..But I dont think I would be as happy as I could be..


cainam_nazier
haha I think I saw that,coincedence or what?? that may be the only episode watched from kids in the hall....:)

















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"WAKE UP!WAKEUP!WAKE UP AND LOOK AROUND YOU!WERE LOST IN SPACE AND THE TIME IS OUR HOME"
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G,day Alpha

Good to hear about your experiences with religion & once again I'm going to have to vehemently agree with you.

"If you are a good person, you will go to a good place"

That I believe is the true meaning of words spoken by people like, Jesus, Buddha & Mohhamed.Truly great, great men of love, understanding & compassion.

The ten commandments supposedly passed to Noah are strikingly similar to concepts the egyptians wrote in the book of the dead, before Noah's time. Instead of "I will not kill" " I will not steal" etc it became "Thou shalt not kill" & " Thou shalt not steal" etc. Even the lords prayer was similar.

The word "Christ" was borrowed from the greek word "Kristos", meaning "King" & once again revolved around ancient egyptian beliefs of Gods, but was somehow down the centuries turned into "Christ, the son of God".

Last night my girlfriend & I went to dinner with some friends of ours, one of whom is a priest. When he found out I was doing science at uni, he started talking about evolution & how they have it all wrong, he didn't expect me to agree with a lot of what he said & assumed I had taken a stance against religous interpretations, but was even more stunned when I said scientists/ physicists believe the big bang started everything, but admit they come unstuck by the same arguement pointed at religions, "What came before that? How did the energy for the big bang come into existence?".

Anyway, good to hear from ya alpha, good journeys mate.

Mobius

Alpha, I think that most religions' origins start off with "Love everyone and be happy". But a few men twist them to gain power over others and religions then "evolve" into something more political. If you pay attention Jesus was teaching this, but his teachings have been twisted. I do not believe that Jesus was any god any more than you or me. He was just gifted as you put it and enlightened. He tried to teach these things to people but again the message was twisted to benifit a few. From my studies Jesus was trying to liberate people from religion, not create a new one. I guess most people just are not ready for this freedom and to seek for themselves.

God is Jesus. I have seen Him manytimes. He loves all. The mean ugly pretty sad happy rude ALL. He wants us to see things through His eyes. He loves all of his churches all the faiths of this earth.


Robin

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2c2fq/index2.htm

Hi All,
Two comments I picked up in earlier posts on this topic really struck a chord with me:
Fallnangel77:
"Jesus was trying to liberate people from religion, not create a new one."

Alpha:
"God is Love, Love is God"

For two people who don't really prescribe to God in the sense Christians do, you've certainly nailed the essence of the belief

This really appeals to me. I call myself a Christian, but I am NOT religious.

When I was 16 I started regularly attending Christian churches. I was led to "give my heart to the Lord" about a year later. For the next 15 or so years I attended various Christian churches, from the Salvation Army, to Assemblies of God Penticostal churches. My ex-wife was also a staunch Christian (no prizes for guessing where we met). I experienced miraculous things in the churches, learned to pray from my heart, and learned what it was like to be in the presence of the "Spirit of God", and what the power of prayer can be. These were very powerful experiences that I can never deny, and I learned a great deal about things of a spiritual nature.

Many people, such as a lot of my friends, are perfectly happy remaining in these churches and worshipping God and Jesus as the learn from the Bible. There are many people who truly have been "saved" by their faith in God. They have been led to a path of spiritual growth, instead of a path of materialistic destruction.

I couldn't stay in the churches. I saw way too much intolerance towards other beliefs and practices, and too much hypocrisy. Organised religions and their fanatical followers have been responsible for so much death and destruction in this world. The funny thing here is, when you look at how much fighting goes on between Muslims, Jews, Christians and many other sects and beliefs, didn't all their key prophets say the same thing – "Love one another. Be kind and good to others". They fight and kill over stupid points of law in their religions and forget about the core of it all – Love.

So now I'll get down from my pulpit and get to the point.

I do believe there is a god. I don't believe any one name or description is accurate on its own, since at the centre of the beliefs they're all about the same.  I believe "God" to be a sentient spiritual essence that infuses the whole universe, just as I believe this earth has a sentient spiritual essence, which many choose to call Gaia. I have become used to referring to this entity as God or Jesus. I don't see any reason why a name cannot be applied to this entity to help us understand or cope with something infinitely larger than us, as a matter of personal choice. Just as long as we don't force our choice, our beliefs on others.

I believe that creation and evolution can work together if you look at it from the point that first things were put into place by some sentient force, then let to grow and evolve as needed. I don't think you can rule out either creation or evolution. Is it not possible that all life that we see around us was designed by some intelligence far greater than we can understand, but designed in such a way that it can look after itself, and adapt. Essentially – EVOLVE. As science has grown and we've been able to learn more about our universe, we discover more and more of how symmetrical and organised things are, as if they were designed.


James S
(Fate amenable to change)

P.S.

This is a GREAT topic David!

What's even better is that we a reading what others believe as the core of their lives without getting into a verbal punch-up over who's right or wrong.

It's great to see a group of people have different beliefs, yet are like minded and genuinely open to and interested in what others think.

James S
(Fate amenable to change)

Hi everyone

I think it's just amazing that all these religous faiths oppose each others translations & beliefs, but are all trying to promote love & understanding.

Take Judaism, Christianity & Islam, ok they have different words, but their central deities are all the same, they all believe in the same God & many of the characters in each of their bibles are exactly the same person.

So why did the Crusades take place? Why the extermination of the Jews? I'm going to say that word again, pure evil manifested into paper form, MONEY ! hehe.

So why fight, if it's the very thing that most religions advocate, I don't know of a religion that doesn't in some way say this quote:
" Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself " .

Robin & James, welcome to the discussion, good to have some new input. Robin can you expand a little on your beliefs or ideas, I'm keen to learn about everyones beliefs/ ideas. I'm especially interested in what you mean when you say "God is Jesus, I have seen him many times".

James, good thinking mate.

Good journeys all

Mobius

You know one of the things that I always seem to get stuck on with religion dates back to to Greek and Roman mythology.  I have done a lot of reading in this area, the times, and the people.  Reading things like the Illiad, The Odessy, and a hand full shorts in books from the local library.  When I think of the differences in times and religions I often wonder who was right.  The many gods, or the one god?

Think of this for a moment.  With the comming of Monotheism came a lot of fightnig over which religion was the right one.  But back when there were many gods war was not fought over religion.  They did not hide behinde that mask.  They very simply fought because of land, money, slaves, and so on.  There were no religious wars.   And even though the Greeks and the Romans had different names for the gods that the worshiped they knew they wetre the same ones.  Even the Egyptians shared many of the same gods with the Greeks and Romans and accepted this, and knew that they were the same but only named different by the people.

So why is it that they knew this so long ago with the many gods being the same but yet in todays world that kind of thinking seems impossible from the vast majority.  What if Montheism itself is wrong?  What if there are many gods?  Maybe that is why they knew that the gods were the same, that, that was the way of the world, and we are the ones who have lost our way, that there is not just one god.

David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

Many gods, one god, no god? These questions are hard to find an answer to until we answer one question, What is a god? Until we define what a god is, then how can we really say if there is one, many, or any at all. Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary defines god as:

Main Entry: 1god
Pronunciation: 'gäd also 'god
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got god
Date: before 12th century
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3 : a person or thing of supreme value
4 : a powerful ruler

According to the first definition it seems that there would be only one god, infinite Mind. Can there be more than one infinite mind? To me infinite mind means an overall consciousness, a oneness of all.

According to the other definitions there are many gods. Infact by definition 4, there are many gods among us today. Maybe this is why there are so many gods and religions. These gods were just powerful rulers, who became more powerful as their stories were pasted down through generations until they were no longer seen as rulers of just people and nations but of the universe.

There seems to be no clear defintion of god. When one says god another may be thinking something totally different, not just about names, but of totally different "powers" and place in the universe. So how can anyone make a generalized judgement without a clear definition. Will there ever be a clear definition?

What is a god?

Hi,

Well, I don't know what  God is. I remember Monroe meeting a more advanced I/there and thinking it was God and the 'being' corrected him. So presumably we 'recognize' divinity when we see it, but also presumably we may be wrong.

This topic has merit whether we define God or not, as we are all thinking the issue through a little bit and trying to learn a little bit.

It's a tough question. I both believe and don't believe. The degree to which I believe is based on the pervasive quiet feeling that something beyond myself sustains me. The degree to which I don't believe is based on the inconsistencies that I see between groups, and the idea of trying to define in the first place something that may well transcend definition. I think the "I am" is about as good as any definition gets when it comes to God. I would guess that since "by definition" nothing is 'bigger' than god, then the 'biggest' that man is capable of envisioning is the closest we can come to defining God and yet there is no reason to think that man is capable of envisioning infinite-ness anyway. We do seem limited in many areas, after all.

I think a lot of the discussion about love, and fighting, and so on --- can be more easily addressed by not asking whether or not there is a god but rather whether or not goodness is a worthwhile pursuit.

It's hard to find answers to the big questions - but one answer I have found is that I have the choice to behave in a loving way, or not.

That is very empowering.  

It becomes circular, then, to ask whether I am defining God as Goodness. (If God is all that is, but God is also goodneess, what is badness? If God is good and bad, then am I serving only part of god when I choose to try to serve goodness? (Am I defining God or serving God?)


Patty

Hi patty,
Deep answer. I had to read through your post a few times to get a grasp on what your saying. It really got me thinking!

Good point about defining god as "I Am" (just as God says to Moses). How can we define something infinite when we ourselves and our thought processes are finite - being always bound by definitions and limitations.

"...not asking whether or not there is a god but rather whether or not goodness is a worthwhile pursuit. " - this seems to me a rather crucial point, and a good reason for our spiritual journeys, that is, if we are genuine in our motives. Not knowing who or what god is will not stop somebody from being a genuinely loving, caring person.

Your last comment -  I can't work it out either, and I've been sitting here trying while I type this. I think it just comes back to the point that were are too limited to try to understand the nature of God. that's the safest way. Anything else and I start to get a headache!

Loving life, and all that is around us, will put us closer to God than those who do not. And yes, it is our choice to do so.


James S
(Fate amenable to change)

As someone said in in a previous post, mankind has been grappling with the question from time immerorial.

Yet only 800 years ago, St. Thomas Aquinas was the best and most qualified expounder of all the issues that truly matter to us all.  Considering all the philosophical and religious turmoil that was happening around him in the 13th century, that he could set down his Summa Theologica could only have come from Divine inspiration.

Thankfully this gigantic tome has not been altered to fit the needs of selfish princes and kings for the aquisition of power and control over the people as time has marched on.  And thankfully still, someone was crazy enough to put all five volumes online.  :-)

Some good reads...
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/100200.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/107500.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608b.htm

Peace.

"To see the product of the Creator... look upon creation.  To hear the sound of His love... help your fellow man.  To know the essence of His being... gaze into the mirror."

BD

I believe in God because I talk to him everyday and He tells me what to do.  I know He loves me because I see his love in nature and in the eyes of everyone I meet.

fides quaerens intellectum

My belief is that God is nothingness.  Therefore it(he,she) is in everything and is everywhere but also not.  Does that make sense?  I also believe that humans have the capacity to be godlike.  But only after gaining a full understanding to the Tetragrammaton (thus becoming a true magician).  See books by Franz Bardon.

Great debate,is there a God -Goddess, I don't know.Just because its the excepted norm doesn't mean its so.
I've  read that man and womankind are approaching the adolescent stage of our joint emotional evolution ,here we question who we are and rebel at what went before .Prior to that we were in our childhood and as all children needed a father God and a mother church to look after us.It would seem that adulthood is someway of.
From experience I know we are spiritual beings in a state of fluxes growing  despite ourselves, it would be great if there was a omnipotent being who had our best interests at heart .But I suspect that its down to us.

yoki

Hi Yoki

Welcome to Astral Pulse & welcome to the debate, although I'd prefer to think of it as a discussion.

I agree with what you have said there "the norm, doesn't mean it is so". It's strange that you have come here & onto this thread as well, after I read one of your posts on the PL site a few days ago, which was quite well done.

Anyways, good journey.

Mobius

I would just like to take a moment and thank all of you who shared your thoughts on this subject.

  I must say you all handled yourselves very well given the sensativity of the subject.

  My main goal was to see why people in general subscribe to ordered religion, and the god/creator aspect most teach.  I guess that it all boils down to the very same reasons that I am a non-believer.

  Feeling and experiance.  Oddly enough those to things are the common ground for believers and non-believers alike.  Some thing inside tells us what is what.

  And in the end......we are all the same.



David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.
http://www.prepaidliving.com/vip/David127385

I would  like to challenge the perception that feelings and experiences indicate the existence of  a God_Goddess .If this offends anyone I offer my apologies in advance ,"sorry mate but this is how I see it.".
Firstly feelings  can be influenced by different factors ,the physical body  produces  endorphins and hormones ,while childhood events drive our moods  If we look at  the feelings that do not  eventuate from us, they are open to personal interpretation
In fact all feeling  and experances pass threw the filter of our perception.
Experiences can also be driven and interpreted by how we  think,apparently  at death we are met by whom we expect ,Jesus , Buddha  or maybe a angel,this could also apply to visions etc..Voices (sorry I have to say this folks ) could be schizophrenia  ,then  maybe its  your small inner voice , guides  or the wind .
My most  important  experience happened in the eighties,when as a  mother of three young children  I read in the local paper that a Indian Guru-Master was coming to town  .My mother-in-law was roped in and on the appointed day  I was a member of his audience.When it was announced that anyone could go forward for initiation there was no stopping me.We sat at the front a mantra was given and we meditated.While this happened the Guru moved along the line touching each person between the eye.I cant remember if he said or did anything else but what happened next I will never forget. As soon as he touched me I stood in light.it was solid very real and totally unexpected.
God its said is light so I could say that I have experienced God or in my case the Goddess, maybe I left my body and in a instance found this light.The explanation I like  best is that I had a illumination sounds very grand or perhaps I went inwards threw the layers of ego and experienced my true being .Crossing the desert (life) I was offered a cup of water now I search  for  the spring ,the source of which could be a higher being or my own soul .
This event leads me to question a chapter in Robert Bruce's book, headed chakra and other wonder workers .He states that influences from other people can not effect our chakras ,I would say that in rare instances this is possible ,  the Guru seems to have done just that

yoki

Hi Yoki :

"This event leads me to question a chapter in Robert Bruce's book, headed chakra and other wonder workers .He states that influences from other people can not effect our chakras ,I would say that in rare instances this is possible , the Guru seems to have done just that."

I think you are right - perhaps other people can have an influence as you state. However, Robert Bruce's style of writing, while sounding quite authoritative, is based on only what he himself has experienced....This relates to his "catch - basket" concept, where he has decided only to believe in what he has experienced to be true. I personally don't think that this is a valid approach to this subject.

Why i belive this is a God is from personal experiances and what seems to be logical to my understanding.
My background is that i grew up in a comunity of mosty members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, comonly called Mormons. As a kid i remember feeling uncomfortable with the talk of God and angles appearing to people.
I wonder if this could have been from things like Santa Claus and the big story and all the things that parents do to make it appear to a child that Santa is real.
Then later you find out it was all a fable for the children which parents have fun doing.
So maybe from this i grew up wondering if God and angles and such were fairy tales also.
When i went into the Air Force I had the thought that i would now see how other people lived. While in the air force on day i was sitting on the box that had all the safety gear for the F4 i had ready for the pilots. I was sitting on this box leaning up against a big fire extinguisher and it was like my body became paralized. i could not move and it was a creapy bad feeling that came over me. I strugled and finally i was able to move a finger and it was all gone.
I forget what Robert calls this paralized state. Any way it occasionally would happen to me again for about 5 times. I left the air force after 4 years and went back to Utah. I got to the point that i decided to not fight this frozen body feeling and let it last longer to see what would happen. So instead of fighting it i waited and then i started to hear voices, male and female. they were chanting somthing. i waited and then i could hear what the chanting was. "I and feel again, I can feel again". At this point i thought "not with my body" and started to fight to move again and finally broke out of it.

After this i really started to get serious about finding out what was religion was true. I decided to start with what i had been tought was true. The Bible, Book of Morman, Doctrin and coventants and Pearl of Great price. These are called the 4 standard works in the church. In the Book of Mormon the last chapter Moroni 10 verses 3 through 5 it says (my words). to ask God in the name of Christ and he will manifest to truth of it to you by the power of the Holy Ghost, and by the power of the holy Ghost you can know the truth of all things.
This was somting that i could test out for my self. No i never then or up to now have had a angel appear and tell me it was true but i have had some very powerful feeling come over me and have felt that it was true.

So the first prouf is the feeling that the Book of Mormon was true.

Second was when i had been praying about someting. i had went up in the canyon and had been praying for quite a while. At about 3AM i was cold and decided to go home feeling dejected that i had not got a answer to my prayer. I drove back to my grandparents home where i was staying and just before going to bed i again started to pray.
I got a answer in my mind. kind of like hearing a male voice but it was not with my ears that i heard it. It was in my mind. Just one word. "peace"

So there are some of the experiance that i have had that i think at least for me says Yes there is a God.

Truth, love and peace be unto you.
Kbear

I am writing this without reading the other eplies, so if I repeat something, please forgive.

quote:

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So why all the abduction stories of rectile probbing and wierd experimentation? Would they not think that we are all Gods creatures and in would be bad to treate any thing in that manner? This leads me to think that well if they do this because they found out that there is no God. Or he did not create them, and if he did not create them then he did not create the entire universe.  

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I am not for or against the theory of spiritual ET's, but look at it this way. Maybe, just maybe, they're doing us a favor in the long run by thge way of abduction and , *cough*, rectile probing. lol.

Look at it this way. Humans are spiritual creatures, correct?

Yet we do the same thing to "lesser" species. Why? To learn, and in many cases, to save.

For example, semen extraction. Weird and perverse at first glance, but look deeper. I think an instance where a team of biologists and conservationists capture a cougar from it's home (abduction), insert an electrical stimulator into it's rectum (anal probe) and stimulate it's genitals via gentle electrical current, extracting semen. We did this and still do this for the sake of the Florida Panther, to save the species. We then collar it and let it loose back into the wild. (Implant).

See a similarity?

getting back to the topic at hand, I believe in God, or the Creator, but prefer not to label Him with such meager mortal names.

I'm getting around to accepting Christ, though I have yet to open my spirit to Him and really believe.



"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

Yoki_h
"I would like to challenge the perception that feelings and experiences indicate the existence of a God_Goddess .If this offends anyone I offer my apologies in advance ,"sorry mate but this is how I see it.".
Firstly feelings can be influenced by different factors ,the physical body produces endorphins and hormones ,while childhood events drive our moods If we look at the feelings that do not eventuate from us, they are open to personal interpretation
In fact all feeling and experances pass threw the filter of our perception.
Experiences can also be driven and interpreted by how we think,apparently at death we are met by whom we expect ,Jesus , Buddha or maybe a angel,this could also apply to visions etc..Voices (sorry I have to say this folks ) could be schizophrenia ,then maybe its your small inner voice , guides or the wind ."

  It is all very true and very possible.  But experiences like these and many others help us to decide what is real and what is not.  There is no other way to live.  You know that the chair you are in is real because you can feel it, see it, touch it, and probably in some bad experiences smell it.  But on the same note you believe that emotions are real, anger, saddness, love.  You can not touch them, see them, smell them, you can only feel them.  
  It is not that one person experiences some thing and it is true for everyone.  But the experience makes it true for them.  

And in the end that is all that matters.
---------
Michael Ghostwolf,

   And interesting idea.  Could it be that "they" are doing it for our own benifit?  If you look at it that way it could be that they see the destruction of the species nearing and wish to save a few.........Every one onto the ark.  An interesting spin.


David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.
http://www.prepaidliving.com/vip/David127385

I'm a skeptical kind of person, and I love discussions like this.
I've read things like, "I know God exists because he and I have talked." or "I have felt his presence." Far be it for me to dispute this with you guys, who obviously believe this very deeply, but no one, no matter how much they think they do, understands the workings of the world or the universe around us to know wether they have been in contact with god, if such a being even exists. You dont know that what you felt was the presence of a God, that just seems to be the general feeling of beings on this planet. The reason why, I beleive, is because we hear of this idea of a God from the moment we hear the words of the language we speak for the first time. It is almost programmed into us. Naturally, this is what you would think something like a presence of this type is. Maybe someone of another religion or race may feel that that feeling would be something else?
My feelings on this matter are simple. Believe whatever you want, but as much as we like to think so, we dont know for sure, and no one has the right  to tell another group of people that this is the way it is or it isn't, like so many religions have done througout the centuries. I wont tell another person I know that God doesn't exist, because I really dont know for sure. I may beleive he doesn't, but I dont have the right to preach that to people, just the same as someone cant tell me he does exist.  They dont know, they have only been told he does.

Hi everyone!  I've been thinking about what everyone has said.  Lets first look at the Christian definition of God.  God is all-knowing, everywhere present, and all-powerful.  This seems like a good definition in time and space.  But I ask you....what is the definition of God.....if we lived outside of time and space.  :-)  Another good question is if we can ever fully know God.  To me that seems correct.  But what if there was a God in time and space.  To me that would seem that we would be able to know and love him.  Am I correct?  But....then that contradicts the other sentence that God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and everywhere present.  To me it seems that there are different levels of God.  Am I correct?  This to me would make sense.  Alot of people believe that Jesus was God in time and space.  Any Christians out there?  If anyone can prove to me that Jesus is God in time and space.....I would be very much grateful.  Lets keep this friendly too!  I have a question for all the atheists out there too.  How can we come from nothing?  To me the only solution to that problem is that there is a Creator.  

Another interesting concept is what if we are all God.  You are God.  I AM God.  We are all God.  Maybe we are not infinite at the moment....but we can't leave out the possibility that we are God.  In the urantia book....which I used to be into believes that we are all sons of God.  That means that we are God because we are his sons. :-P   Maybe there was never a nothing that preceded the Creation.  Maybe we have always been.  But that doesn't make sense to me either!  I say this because I can't remember anything from my past lives.  If I can't remember anything from my past lives what the heck is the point of past lives?  It seems if we don't remember anything then past lives are meaningless.  To me....common sense rules out that there are no such thing as past lives.   Comments anyone?  

Maybe God will always remain a mystery at some point.  Maybe we are not God.  But God lives within us because he is everywhere present.  I mean think about it.  That must be the Mystery of Mysteries.  Did you guys know that children are atheists.  This literally makes any bad definition of atheists thrown out the window.  The definition of an atheist is the absence of belief in God.  And thats exactly what little children are...they are atheists.  I mean do you guys think anyone will ever be correct in everything about God the universe etc.  I don't think anyone will ever get it all right.   I mean think about right now to us finite creatures God is so inconceivable it makes your head hurt.  Thats why I am interested in the Christian concept of Jesus.  Because to them he his a God in time and space.  I have alot of questions regarding this matter.   For example....if Jesus was God then how did he get angry at the money changers in that place.....where he flipped over all of those tables....you guys know what I'm talking about.   To me....it doesn't make sense that God can have a negative emotion like anger.  Does anyone disagree.  I would love to here your points.  To me...God is positive.....with all positive emotions like love, peace, joy, etc etc.   Well this is getting really long.

Adios

I have a little saying that I go by. I'm all for Christ, but I'm anti Christian. Sorry if I'v offended anyone so far.
What I mean is, that Jesus was a smart dude. He saw that the workings of society needed to be changed, and he did it by carrying out acts that he knew would tick off the Jewish High preists. As far as I'm concered, he's no saviour, he was just a smat guy who saw the need for change.
Now heres is my problem. Jesus didn't sit up one day and say, "I'll start my own religion and call it Christianity!", it came hundreds of years later, with the writing of the bible. It began when people started to thinnk for themselves, and standing by the believes that Jesus held, this new though that the churches cant controll everything. That brings me to my problem. The churches have been doing the same thing that Jesus was trying to stop. The slaughtering of people on the assumption that they were witches, the wars that are going on in Northern Ireland and in the Middle East, and even those Child Abuse cases the Cathoilic Chirch is fighting today. All Because organized religion just doesn't work. It started off with the bast of intentions, but the churches had power, and power corrupts.
Now, another problem. I dont pretend to know that there is or isn't a god, but the Church presents a rather mean, stupid, angry god. A lot of you mentioned this before, but I think this is a rather unenlightend view to take.
I dont think any of us are intelligent or enlightened enough to comprehend the universe we live in, and I think we ought to stop guessing about a god and sort out the human race first. One of the biggest problems on this planet is organized religion.

Well said or should I say well writen Josh

yoki

Cainam Nazier
It is all very true and very possible. But experiences like these and many others help us to decide what is real and what is not. There is no other way to live. You know that the chair you are in is real because you can feel it, see it, touch it, and probably in some bad experiences smell it. But on the same note you believe that emotions are real, anger, sadness, love. You can not touch them, see them, smell them, you can only feel them.
It is not that one person experiences some thing and it is true for everyone. But the experience makes it true for them

It is all very true and possible  but you statements are  out of context and misrepresents what I wrote .Chairs feelings and experiences are real its the interpretation  of these things that are at question .
A chair to some one living  in the heart of  the  jungle could represent fire wood .
A Atheist a witch and a Scientist  are walking down the road when they are stopped by a figure bathed in light .The Atheist was raised a Catholic so sees Jesus ,he's intently born again. The Witch feels blessed by the great goddess her faith is reconfirmed The Scientist choses not to see the figure and wonders what quirk of nature  coursed the light ,such are experiences.
As for feelings they come and go like the wind and are just  as elusive

yoki

I dont belive in God because I see it! everywhwre! Belive in God is a phrase/word wich contains in itself a God wich can´t be experienced. I dont belive in "him" because he is just right now here (and there). There is no need to believe, there is just need to open our eyes to what we are already seeing. Life is about remembering what our real nature hasnt forgot. Faith is not beliving in something, is acepting facts already have appened and are happening. I think we give to much power to words that separate things from us. Do yo believe in god was the cuestion, a cuestion that in itself separtes "us" and "him".

¿I am saying we are god and GOD is we? YES, and we have to be carefull not to missunderstood this, because we are talking not about an egomaniac attitud.  

                                             Thank's a lot fot the cuestion and the sapce!

i believe we are god as well.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mobius

Yes, good topic Cainam, thanks for starting it & for the reading I've done because of it.

Others like the freemasons are supposed to have beliefs about the Pleidians, the Rosicurian order if I remember right, had something similar. Many other little cults & sects believe in some sort of connection with Pleides, Sirius & Orion,

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I'd love to know the references on that one!  [:)]  As you might guess I'm a Mason and while I'm only blue lodge I do a lot of reading about the Craft in general.  I've seen nothing about beliefs in Sirius, Orion, or the Pleides.  The only connection is one Masonic author (Pike) who mentions Sirius, however his work was also rather genius and spotty at the same time. He covered a LOT of material in his "Morals and Dogma" of the Scottish Rite but much of it has very little to do with that branch of Freemasonry itself.

Someone wanted an intelligent point of view to why I believe/don't believe in god. This idea is from online book, but I modified it a little.

So here goes:

Do you believe that a house can built itself without any help? Even if we provide boards and windows and all that is needed and put it in a pile and waited, would the house built itself? What if we waited for a very long time? Would the house built itself?

If your answer is no, it wouldn't, then why is it so?

Doesn't the house need planning, intelligence to imagine and create the house, before it can be built?

And if so, then which is more difficult to create from scratch, a house or a living being? (and I said from scratch, so there is no DNA to begin with, all that must be created).

So, if you think that life is more difficult to create, then do you think that life came to be by itself, if even as simple thing as a house can't just be there one day?

So, what do you think, which is more likely. That there was/is something that designed life and then created it, or do you think that universe and life itself just popped out of nowhere. Which do you think is more logical?

Ok, that was basically the reasoning in the book. I haven't myself seen or heard God or any other higher spiritual beings, but I have seen my mom's astral body, so I know there is more to this reality than material world. And yes I believe that there is God in some form. And I don't mean that some alien who can levitate is god, no way. God is the ONE who created this universe and our souls. Our bodies may be genetically engineered by aliens, but that doesn't make them gods, because we are not our bodies, we are souls.

I think that we are parts of God, like drops of a ocean, on our way to realise what we really are.

[:)]
-Pete

What a great topic!
My opinion for what its worth......
I hate the word 'God' to me it implies some old bloke sitting in the clouds ruling down on us with thunder and lightening bolts....
We (the universe) obviously came from somewhere but it I don't believe that there was a 'creator' with a grand plan, if there was, who created the 'creator', etc....
I believe that there are many, many levels of conciousness and many dimesnions that most of us cannot even imagine, but if I cant, see, it , feel it, touch it, smell it, experience it on some level then I don't belive it!
Bindi

I am going to let my greatest attribute shine by not reading all the replies to this topic. Laziness rocks! [:D]
Anyway, as far as believing any entity as a god or a devil exists, i don't know. I don't believe, but i don't not believe. God could very well exist, as could Satan, but the only idea i have of that is other people's thoughts or words.
I am not about to put so much faith in something as big as the creation of man on the words of other people. Those words are just that, other people's words, and often words that stem not from their own thoughts, but from thoughts that have infected people for thousands of years. Sure, many people may have their own genuine thoughts that God exists, but i don't believe those thoughts can exist unless the person who thinks them is 100 percent certain that they have reached those thoughts through their own means and not just because the belief of a god is almost forced upon them. In the world i (and i'm sure a lot of people here) live in, it is so widely accepted that the Christian god does exist that there is no room for individual thought about things like that.
The only way i will ever believe in anything like that is if i know it for myself. And i don't believe seeing is believing, either.
Having said that, i don't completely block any chance of something being true. If that were so it would be impossible for me to learn anything, and that's what i'm here to do.
For the moment, i simply remain skeptical.

Hey there Davidg

Thanks for clearing that up for me about the Sirius or the Pleidians. I'm not sure where I read about that connection, but it was something to do with Masons beliefs of origins etc. If I remember where I read it, I'll post you, or if I come across it again. But then again, it might be like you say, a book written about Freemasons, but not BY a freemason.

Does Freemasonry have a common concept/belief around the globe? Or do they all have their own interpretations?

Good journeys

Mobius

Greetings

I believe the true wisdom lies in the question, and not the answer.

For those who would deny god on the basis of the chicken and egg. I will say two things. Firstly, the egg came first. What layed it? A lizard. Evolution! Tho, I know u used that example only to illustrate that side of a debate :)

And secondly why must god be born? And if so, then must god die? And why would god even exist in "time". There is scientific evidence to state that perhaps there is no time. We know that there is gravity in the physical plane. But you experiment yourself and see if theres gravity on the astral and "above". I think u'll find its all relative. Based on what you believe.

And the same goes for time. Einsteins theory of relativity. Time can be distorted. Much like gravity. Hence my question is, if its very similar to gravity, and gravity dont exist in the astral why would time exist?

That being said i ask, why then do we experience time in the astral. Is that simply becuase we expect it? And we are so "used" to having time. Then does it really not exist there? And does it really exist here?

And if there is no time, then would "GOD" really have been born? Or just exist?

For dont all things that have a beginning have an end? And all things that are born... die?

Is it not perhaps possible that we can not define "GOD". Atleast based on our understandings?

Socrates

good point... (btw thanks again for you know what)

anyway...


i think evolution is real, but i also think that god made those first chemicals react in such a way as to make life. ut from there, we were on our own.

I dont think god is some huge almighty creature. i believe that things are much simpler than we think. you'll probably hear more about that soon...

i just think god made us cuz he was alone. he's not a GOD he's not superhuman, un imaginable, etc. he's a soul like us, except he happened to creat us.

i dont mean to sound rude, but big deal. just because he made us doesnt mean he wants us to bow down to him with animal sacrifices, and blah blah blah. he's just there, being our friends...

at least, that's what i think.

ill share with you a little of my expirience with souls. they are kinda small. but they... prove to me that some thing is out there.

my cat thoth died about 2 years ago. he was a cowardly cat. he was picked on by our other 6 cats, especially the bully, isis. isis happened to be beautiful, and she knew she was the favorite.
thoth also had a stinky year round alergies. think huge sneezes, lots of mucus, and a lot of people who hate snot.
isis dies. thouth is alone with us, unloved and miserable. mom wants to put him to sleep. i feel guilty, because i liked tormenting him. throwing him down the stairs, etc... i tell mom that maybe if we make him loved he'll be happier. he was such a trusting creature.
the first day. he is apprehensive. i try to brush his fur and he runs away. later i slowly crawl to him, holding my fingers out to him enticingly like food. he stays put. next day he walks over and lets me pet him. next day lets me brush him. he still wont get on my lap though. next day im in the chair. thoth comes over an looks at me. i move over, patting the space next to me. to my complete amazement, he jumps up beside me. then, to my more amazement, he slowly paws my lap. he sits on it.
the next night he actually fell asleep. on my lap. he slept on my freaking lap after only one week of kindness. he fell asleep on the lap of someone who had tormented him before.

what does that tell you?
6 months later he died downstairs. i rush downstairs, probably only a minute after. i cry, my parents and brother watching. my brother petted him during his last few moments...
i cry and cry. all of a suddent, im calm. absolutly calm. no more crying... just peace. I firmly believe that his soul, upon leaving his body, passed through mine or something, to comfort me.
about 8 months later, i was about to sit on the chair. i all of a sudden remembered thoth, how i should sit down slowley so i would not crush him, so he could have time to wake up and crawl over my lap.
thats what i did. i believe his soul had come back as a visit. thats why i remembered him just then. i even petted the thin air, in case souls can still feel touch. when i had to stand up, i pretended to pick him up and let him gently to the ground.

that was my major soul expirience. I know it's off topic, but what do you think? was it his soul that came back?

uh, hellooooo, anybody home?

Not off topic at all.  The idea of a soul is very much in line with wether we were created or happened.  It is argued very much about animals and souls, and what happens to them.  I personally don't believe in a heaven or hell and all the things associated with them.  I believe a persons or animals soul/spirit remains in a world just past our own, and that they can and do visit us.

To be truthful, I DO believe in God and I am not ashamed. I really just CAN'T believe that we came from tiny one celled organisms, or that this whole world and us was made from an explosion in space! I mean, whoever made up that crap must've been REALLY foolish! LOL! Well, anyways I just also can't see how people could say that we ARE God in some way or another! I just don't get it! Well anyways, I said my piece! I hope you guys have a great time on this topic! [:D][8)][:P]

ss_majin_gohan,
   
   Actually many evolutionist do not agree with the big bang theory at all.  And mostly because of the more and more evidence that is found they are believing the world to be older than originally thought.


Timeless,

  True, I may not know you, but you have also not yet given me a reason not to trust you.  I liked your post for the simple reason that your believe in god because...and then filled in the blank.  That is the reason I started this thread, not to so much find out wether or not people believe but why.  The why is the important part.  If you can't answer why you believe some thing then what would be the point?  
  Yes I am sceintific but I am not a purist in that respect.  If I must coin a phrase, I would call myself a "Spiritual Sceintist".  I accept the fact that certain things just can not be explained except on a personal level.  But I also feel that one day we will be able to collect hard data on spiritual happenings.  But even now, although personal to each person, there are certain themes that are fairly well maintained from person to person.  And as any researcher will tell you even just one re-occuring item is a place to start.  
   The main reason I don't believe is a simple one.  I have never experienced anything remotely like what some of the people here have explained.  For most it seems like a frying pan hitting them up side the head, and then they know.  I guess I just keep ducking.

I want to make one thing clear up front.  This has been started for intillectual debate and only partially.  Given the nature of the question asked in could very possibly go bad.  If it does I will ask that it be removed so please try to use the inteligence factor when posting.  Now that said......

  I would very much be interested in knowing why some of you believe in a God or Creator as some prefer.  I have been asked many times what it is that I believe and why?  I have also noticed that there are a greate many believers on these forums and I seem to be one of only a few evolutionists around here.  But I do alot for every one to have thier own opinion and no matter what I think of it I do not view a persons beliefs to be a strike against character or intelligence.  This being because there must be some reason to thier thinking.  Usually the more intelligent a person is the better thier reason and supporting evidence and that is why I feel every one here will be able to handle the question appropriatly.
   I am a person who has never been able to accept the answer "It's just because that is the way it is."  This is how it is for every thing in my life, there is a reason for everything.  Part of my belief system is not to just jump up and buy into every thing that one or even one million people say if they can not give me a reason or evidence.  I need to be convinced.   I believe only what I can prove through logical deduction or have experienced.
   It is because of this reason that I have difficulty believing in a God.  I can not accept it because many people say it is so.  And more so because of the magnitude of I can not accept anything other than cold, hard, facts.  My current frame of mind would probably require God himself to stand in front of me and "Here I am!"  And even then I may question the mental stability of said individual.

   But please I would like to know why you believe.  Was it an experience?  Have you seen him/her?  Was it something you could not explain otherwise?  Were you just born knowing?  Was it taught into you?  Why?  Maybe one of you has some thing that I have over looked and need to add into the equation.  Maybe I have had a similar happening but explained it to myself differently.  I would honestly like to know.

David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.