The Astral Pulse

Am I the only one here that finds religious fundamentalism to be incredibly stupid?

He didn't tell me directly,but he told my uncle,who then told me.I would like to use his computer to down load some bwgen stuff,but I guess I can't now  :lol:

Quote
I know someone believes that OBE is against the will of god
Am I the only one here that finds religious fundamentalism to be incredibly stupid?

He didn't tell me directly,but he told my uncle,who then told me.I would like to use his computer to down load some bwgen stuff,but I guess I can't now

I believe that it's against God's will too. But only conscious OOBEs, not spontaneous. Somewhere in Old Testament it's written that people should not engage in any kind of witchcraft, and should not tolerate it. OOBE is certainly a witchcraft practice...

Yes, but try to love them anyway-because you surely can't fix them :-).

Honestly, I do try, and try..but the intense irritation they cause me is hard to contain sometimes :-)

I don't believe this idea of "God's" will. If the "Creator" was that bothered he/she would have stepped in long ago to make sure we understood. Since we have total free will-to me that implies what I felt the other day (detailed elsewhere) that ALL judgement lies within us...not in the hands of another.

Quote
I don't believe this idea of "God's" will. If the "Creator" was that bothered he/she would have stepped in long ago to make sure we understood. Since we have total free will-to me that implies what I felt the other day (detailed elsewhere) that ALL judgement lies within us...not in the hands of another.

All judgement lies in the hands of a government  :)
Seriously, I have interesting theory:
(This is not intended to offend anyone)
Many gods claim that they created universe. What if Christian/Jewish God(YHWH) is only one of them and not a creator? This would explain many things found in Bible...

My good friend Satan said it is perfectly alright. :wink: If God exists I think he understands.

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My good friend Satan said it is perfectly alright.

Friend?  :shock:

What I don't understand at this point is how anything can be against the will of god (assuming such an entity exists).

If I were able to challenge the will of god ,I Would have to be a god myself,instead of an infinitely tiny portion of the universe.

I think of it this way, if  conscience OOBE was against the Christian God's will, then he wouldn't have allowed humans to have the ability.

This is only my opinion. Not trying to anger anyone...  :)

QuoteAm I the only one here that finds religious fundamentalism to be incredibly stupid?

no

I wonder why these things are hidden from us?

Maybe we are supposed to learn our lessons here-- in the physical world, maybe too much knowledge takes the sense out of our physical existence?

But then on the other hand how about NDE? Ppl die,  meet God and are sent back changed. I am a little confused, I admit...  At least meditation should not be against God`s will, because for many ppl it a way to know God better, just like the  prayer.

Love is the law love under will.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.




8)

I believe this is a higher way to experience God not against it, Just my thoughts.

-Stu

There is no judgement, only the one we create in our minds. Nothing wrong with attempting work that involveds apparent "rules" of reality that get further out there than convention normally acknowledges.

Any creator would be interested in the experience as the this creator is everything that exists anyway. That's the nearest I will come to pinning my beliefs to one place LOL. Because I won't say I'm dead sure, thats just the nearest feeling and intuition I have :-)

not that lessons junk again...

just cause its hard doesnt mean somebody designed it that way

I am not sure why I write this, but somehow I feel like .....somebodody gotta say something. All the one liners all the jokes and the down putting and cocky "smartness", just rubs me the wrong way. I may not agree with Fundamentalism, but to throw out every single one of their points and not take them serious at all, seems very foolhardy to me.

They believe that God exists, and since we can not know for sure, it is indeed a possibility. If so, then there also might be a Devil, and if there is a Devil then ..................

It just seems too stupid to dismiss the idea of God existing, just because one does not want to acknowledge a God in ones own life, and stands to reason that God most likely exists whether one believes in Him or not.

How he views OBE APs etc how one keeps up contact with "Him/Her/It" and learns and grows that is quite another thing and a different discussion.

Thats all.

Regards Mustardseed

I have little trouble with an "entity" that created all, God/Deity/Source whatever label fits I guess.

I find it very hard to really listen to someone when they are extremely fundementalist in nature because I know that they certainly are unlikely to listen to anything outside of their box.

I gave up on all systematic religions years ago, now I only delve into their cultures a little to pick up specific techniques-such as kundalini yoga, tantra, taoist energy practice etc. Yes that makes me sound non spiritual pretty much-which is true. I do energy work and healing for several reasons-health, I like the feeling and I enjoy the feedback if a healing goes well.  So really I'm a technician I guess and I'm not paying an awful lot of attention to the rest of the stuff :-).  

That said I've had a few experiences involving tears of joy and crown strobing etc that convince that yes there is something greater. I don't believe I need anyone's belief system to get in touch with that being..well it's the other way around really isn't it. Allow myself to be touched by that Being, whenever it sees fit maybe? I guess that sounds less arrogant and fits my experience far better...

If the fundementalists God does exist-I'm positive something Creator like does though it might be everything-it does NOT logically follow that the Devil exists too. Sorry but that's not even an arguement on their part. It's just a statement.  I get annoyed with various fundementalist viewpoints that insist I must have "their" faith in order to touch what they would call God. In the politest way possible that's ****. :-).

That comes from the heart, I don't need other groups constructs to allow this to touch me. I just need to feel from the heart and soul. The other nonsense has become meaningless...sorry if this is quite strong and opinionated also but this is a personal truth for me and I'm not trying to convince anyone else that it must be true for them.  That would be wrong.

Quotenot that lessons junk again...

They are real for me...  I'm not saying they are real for everyone.  I believe in God, so for me nothing is coincidence.

Quote from: karnautrahlI have little trouble with an "entity" that created all, God/Deity/Source whatever label fits I guess.

I find it very hard to really listen to someone when they are extremely fundementalist in nature because I know that they certainly are unlikely to listen to anything outside of their box.

I gave up on all systematic religions years ago, now I only delve into their cultures a little to pick up specific techniques-such as kundalini yoga, tantra, taoist energy practice etc. Yes that makes me sound non spiritual pretty much-which is true. I do energy work and healing for several reasons-health, I like the feeling and I enjoy the feedback if a healing goes well.  So really I'm a technician I guess and I'm not paying an awful lot of attention to the rest of the stuff :-).  

That said I've had a few experiences involving tears of joy and crown strobing etc that convince that yes there is something greater. I don't believe I need anyone's belief system to get in touch with that being..well it's the other way around really isn't it. Allow myself to be touched by that Being, whenever it sees fit maybe? I guess that sounds less arrogant and fits my experience far better...

If the fundementalists God does exist-I'm positive something Creator like does though it might be everything-it does NOT logically follow that the Devil exists too. Sorry but that's not even an arguement on their part. It's just a statement.  I get annoyed with various fundementalist viewpoints that insist I must have "their" faith in order to touch what they would call God. In the politest way possible that's ****. :-).

That comes from the heart, I don't need other groups constructs to allow this to touch me. I just need to feel from the heart and soul. The other nonsense has become meaningless...sorry if this is quite strong and opinionated also but this is a personal truth for me and I'm not trying to convince anyone else that it must be true for them.  That would be wrong.

good post. :)  I also find that I don't need any "group constructs" of religion in order to feel and develop a spiritual connection.What I find to be lacking in every religion is the narrow-minded viewpoint of what a higher power could be.The typical god image in religions everywhere is,to me, pathetically simplistic.

What you said earlier about the only judgement coming from within-that really rings a bell-Someone who feels that OBE is against gods will isn't (cannot) speak from experience,but simply from a projected fear of the unknown.A person who subscibes to a neatly packaged religion belief system might feel safe within that construct,and anything falling outside could immediately be labeled "evil" due to the narrow and fragile world view that religious dogma can create.

When the true unknown and the infinite come knocking on their door,their religious construct can collapse like a house of cards.

karnautrahl and jason, these are two very good posts. :D

I beleive god wants us to OBE. Because the side-effects make us more spiritually aware so we can be closer to him.

Also, why would god give us the gift to be able to OBE, if he never intended us to do so?

Quote from: beavis

QuoteAm I the only one here that finds religious fundamentalism to be incredibly stupid?

no

Thank you GuardianMasterAngel :-). Your appreciation is appreciated.
Now I just hope to get the oppurtunity to connect again to whatever it was :-).

QuoteI believe god wants us to OBE. Because the side-effects make us more spiritually aware so we can be closer to him.

Well said!

Well, after starting to practice meditation and OBE I feel so much more energized and peaceful..I do feel closer to God, indeed.

Also I do not understand people who claim that we try to escape reality by doing all these things. I find that I am able to cope with my work and everyday activities much better now instead of trying to run away.
:)

QuoteIvanda: Maybe we are supposed to learn our lessons here-- in the physical world.
Me: not that lessons junk again...  
Ivanda: They are real for me... I'm not saying they are real for everyone. I believe in God, so for me nothing is coincidence.

I've got a problem with the idea that we're puppets sent here to do one thing or an other. I'm not a puppet. I choose what I want to do. If you think somebody can make me learn a lesson, what would they do if I randomly decided to die and never come back to earth? Or what if I make it my business to make sure nobody else learns these "lessons", or even get them to learn the opposite? Just call me Satan!

QuoteRTCovenant: Also, why would god give us the gift to be able to OBE, if he never intended us to do so?

Why would god give us the intelligence to build nuclear bombs if he didnt want us to kill everybody? I dont see your logic.




I dont ignore everything religous fundamentalists say, just the things relating to or derived from fundamentalism, which for some, is everything they say. PRAIIIIISE the LOOOOOOOOOORD or DIE!!!! I dont want those things poisoning my mind. I've spent too much time ridding it of lies.

[/quote]

Also I do not understand people who claim that we try to escape reality by doing all these things. I find that I am able to cope with my work and everyday activities much better now instead of trying to run away.
:)[/quote]

Which people are that ? I really did not discuss much about OB with anyone yet.

Anyways everyone escapes "reality" one way or the other.
Some more common ways are going to bars, clubs, compulsive shopping and the like...

there are always such people..i have even seen similar phrases here on the message board.

QuoteSome more common ways are going to bars, clubs, compulsive shopping and the like..

I think there is a huge difference if u compare these things with spiritual development!!

Of course there is a difference.

The point was supposed to be that to a person to whom everything spiritual seems like a big blur, or something they regard as unusual at best, it will defiantly be the same.

Totally agree with that!

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I've got a problem with the idea that we're puppets sent here to do one thing or an other. I'm not a puppet. I choose what I want to do. If you think somebody can make me learn a lesson, what would they do if I randomly decided to die and never come back to earth?

Puppet? Hmmm, never felt like this. I believe we actually chose to come to earth, live in physical body and learn to cope with suffering. We still have free will to do what we please, don`t we?

Quote from: Ivanda

QuoteI believe god wants us to OBE. Because the side-effects make us more spiritually aware so we can be closer to him.

Well said!

Well, after starting to practice meditation and OBE I feel so much more energized and peaceful..I do feel closer to God, indeed.

Also I do not understand people who claim that we try to escape reality by doing all these things. I find that I am able to cope with my work and everyday activities much better now instead of trying to run away.
:)

I can relate to that-about how people claim that OBE is just an escape.People who say such things quite obviously have no direct experience in the matter.

I find OBE to be quite the opposite of an escape-We  are confronted with something close to the very core of who/what we are when the physical body is temporarily put aside.

Quite simply,there really is no "escape" during OBE.For me,OBE/AP is about the seach for knowledge, as personal power.For moving through and transcending any bs that makes up the larger part of human society-reaching for our higher self,and hopefully,helping others along the way.

And if this makes me "evil" to any religious fanatic,then so be it!

And thank you, karnautrahl for the kind words about my last post.

As I said, I also do not believe as most fundamentalists do. That said, I still believe that too much negativity and name calling is directed their way. You don't bust up a fire throwing wood at it!. All the neat little sound bytes all the clever words that some of you seem to delight is using to put others of a different faith down just seem rather unappealing and immature to me.

Instead maybe you should just face the fact that instead of subscribing to a specific faith you have just made your own, it is based on your combined life experience, more power to ya, but ........it is still just your opinion or faith, your own little private belief system, because the big picture is very very big. This little story might explain with humor what I am trying to say.

3 guys from a nut house was standing around, 2 of them with a hand in their shirt Napoleon style. One says I am napoleon, the other says no you cant be cause I am, the first one says no way I know I am cause God told me, to which the third says "I never said any such thing"

think about it

Regards Mustardseed

Mustardseed I totally agree with you that you shouldn't push anything aside. I personally do not not believe what they are saying, but I don't condemn anyone who does.

The only problem I have with any faith is that they tell people they must do so and so or they will go to hell.

And to take it further, if you want to believe them, it is your choice, just don't try to make me believe in the same concept if I already told you I don't, as I don't force you to believe what I believe.

I second this one.
For me I feel fundementalists are right-for themselves.

They are very wrong if they are of the mindset that believes all should follow what they do.  

For them their beliefs are correct and support them in their life perhaps. I would never ever change my beliefs to match a religion at any cost-apart from one thing ONLY.  Personal experience and consistent revelation that a precise religious belief was true.  I've had "religous" type experiences, none of them persuaded me to follow any fundemental style structure. I can't even put labels on most of what I felt.  So i won't. I won't try to instruct anyone else how to do it, or get anyone to believe as I do. I will tell my story in the right place. Here and to anyone who asks. But it's a story. My story. Not something for anyone else to ever follow.

Quote from: Mustardseed

but ........it is still just your opinion or faith, your own little private belief system, because the big picture is very very big.


Regards Mustardseed

this is very true-And it's the crux of the problem-Trying to get past belief systems-is this even possible?



 many people preach about god,w/out really realizing the vastness of what they pretend to know about.It's like they are trying to put absolute,incomprehensable infinity into a little box,and staple a human face on it!

I'm not trying to come up w/"sound bytes" hereIt's unfortunate that you may misjudge me that way-it's just that I try to state what I mean w/out having a "mega-post" :lol:

The out of body experience is the search within ourselves and within our soul.  We go to places unknown so that we may bring back more answers to life and our experience within that life.

To say that God is opposed to Out of Body travel is like saying God is opposed to us eating our cereal with a fork.  The tools and implements exist within us.  Within these bodies and minds that were made possible by God.

Judgment upon us is based upon decisions we make and whether or not they harm ourselves or those around us.

Enlightenment and exploration are harmless pursuits that allow us to understand the greater tapestry of the universe we live in.  They also allow us to converse with the powers that be, in ways that are otherwise impossible within the five physical senses.

And as an added statement allow me to say this...  especially to the individual who stated that conscious OBE was witchcraft and against the will of god....

...I had alot of doubts about the existence and love of God.  Until of course I started my OBE pursuits...

Now.  I know without a doubt that there is one.  I don't adhere to a pen and paper, died in the wool, religion.  But I'm far more spiritual now, than I ever used to be.

My Two Cents,

Stone

I'd like to make a couple of points. I believe, no, know God exists. He gave us free will which means he allows us to do ANYTHING. Whether perceived as good or evil makes no difference. Mainstream religions view anything outside of acceptable behavior according to their beliefs as evil. To me, by making that judgment would mean they are no longer acting in love. To act in love means to not judge others. That's the big problem I have with religions. Though I'm a professed Christian and attend church at least once a week, I keep my mind open and am learning not to pass judgement on anyone. That's a tough one to nail especially on my commute to work. Having said that, I don't think OBEs are evil and I doubt God thinks so either. This type of activity along with astral projection is no different than a bible study. Just a different method at learning the truth though I suspect more effective than a bible study.

Hey I also do believe in a god just not like the religions do.
The most important thing you can get from a religion in my opinion is that you do not condemn what is different than you. And that is difficult for anyone, but we do try :).

And I agree with traveler that God does not have anything against OB.

About good, evil and morals, it is all in our mind, how we are conditioned to think. A certain conditioning is ok, up to a point: "live and let live".

It's nice to see the idea of believing in God, and a more than open tolerance to multiple paths in one place :-).  I gotta work on being more tolerant of die hard fundementalists...maybe I should pray for that.  LOL Only I don't pray :-), but I think you two guys are right. There is something that can be possibly described as God, a higher power or something :-).

Quote from: karnautrahlIt's nice to see the idea of believing in God, and a more than open tolerance to multiple paths in one place :-).  I gotta work on being more tolerant of die hard fundementalists...maybe I should pray for that.  LOL Only I don't pray :-), but I think you two guys are right. There is something that can be possibly described as God, a higher power or something :-).

I like the phrase "higher power"-it sort of "de-humanizes" the god image as a human,in a good way.It helps take the meaning to a deeper level for me.

I know that I too,need to work on universal tolerance.It is very difficult though,especially when confronted w/reliogious groups that preach love,while many times, spreading judgement,and sometimes even death and destruction.

My own "inner judge" of sorts is silent 80% of the time,but it still crops up once in awhile,especially when judgement is already present in another person or group :roll: .

It almost sounds like judgement is a type of disease (dis-ease).  :?

QuoteIt almost sounds like judgement is a type of disease (dis-ease).

It does seem that way doesn't it. Judgement tends to be a barrier to love.

QuoteQuote:
RTCovenant: Also, why would god give us the gift to be able to OBE, if he never intended us to do so?


Why would god give us the intelligence to build nuclear bombs if he didnt want us to kill everybody? I dont see your logic.

Well, god made the part of OBE part of our spirit and body. He didn't make the nuclear weapons part of our body or mind, he just gave us the minds to undertant science.

But the real answer to this topic is what you, yourself beleive.
If you beleive it to be works of Satan or whatever, then don't do it. I think preachers can preach but they shouldn't boss people around. In the end, it is what you believe, not what others believe.

I believe truly that we are our own Gods, and that everything around us is God. We are God's imagination, his dream, his creation, we are all a part of the same thing, we are all a part of this "God" we all speak of, but in more mere terms we are all a part of this 'higher-power'.

Quote from: bcurry1027I believe truly that we are our own Gods, and that everything around us is God. We are God's imagination, his dream, his creation, we are all a part of the same thing, we are all a part of this "God" we all speak of, but in more mere terms we are all a part of this 'higher-power'.

This is a thought that has crossed my mind more than once-that we and the universe may be a part of the creator-the universe coming to terms w/itself,and evolving.

QuoteIt almost sounds like judgement is a type of disease (dis-ease).

then you're infected, judger of judgers

Quote from: beavis

QuoteIt almost sounds like judgement is a type of disease (dis-ease).

then you're infected, judger of judgers

I know what you mean :(

Bad habits...

Added March 3rd: see post below.

I thought I'd post some thoughts on what I've learned from this topic-

We all must respect all belief systems,whether they are philosophys of fundamentalism,or philosophys of dispair (the "oblivion after death",or "worm food" belief system).

It isn't peoples belief system themselves that can wreak havoc on others lives,it's the actions that people take,based on the particular belief system that can be destructive.

An athiest vainly trying to pick apart religious belief systems w/long-winded scientific terminology,in a futile effort to debunk their beliefs,is just as destructive as a fundamentalist that threatens others who don't follow their particular belief system.Likewise a spiritual,but not religious persons act of judging any belief system,whether they are fundamentalists,or athiests,is just as negative,and not the act that someone who is truly searching for ultimate freedom and knowledge should choose.

I'm glad to say that my inner judge has learned an even deeper level of silent respect!

QuoteWe all must respect all belief systems

Respect of somebody elses belief should be proportional to the chance you think its true. How can you really respect something you think is probably not true? That is fake respect, and you pretend to respect to try to gain some paranormal advantage, but lying to yourself wont accomplish that. We live in a very objective world. Regardless of how much I believe I'm wearing a green shirt, people will probably see the true color of my shirt. Color is not relative at non-relativistic speeds, and you know what you see when you look at my shirt. There are exceptions, usually with high amounts of psychic energy, but they are rare in this part of the universe. Judgements must be made. You judge that its not worth it to respond to this, or you judge it is worth it and respond. You've lost already with your first word.

Quote from: beavis

Respect of somebody elses belief should be proportional to the chance you think its true.

It seems that our definitions of respect are different from eachother.Respect,to me,means that I have a duty to appreciate other belief systems even though I hold another.Respect,to you means that you just want something,such as personal status,due to your casting of judgement.

A belief system exists in the first place quite simply because it brings harmony to the thoughts of those who follow it.

QuoteHow can you really respect something you think is probably not true?

My opinion is irrelevent,as it stems from the "objectivity" (there is no such thing,other than absolute physical objectivity,such as your shirt example) of my belief system,which uses a vastly different mind-set to determine truth.truth is relative-what is absolutely true for one,may be absolutely false to another,and they are both correct FOR THEM  IN THEMSELVES.

QuoteThat is fake respect, and you pretend to respect to try to gain some paranormal advantage, but lying to yourself wont accomplish that.

.

How can you know whether my respect is fake or genuine?

You put words in my mouth.The only "paranormal advantage" I'm trying to gain is absolute,ultimate freedom,and to help others attain it if I can .And this can help be gained by withdrawing negative emotional attachment.A minor element,but an element nontheless.myself,together with others could help the entire world to raise into a higher octave,if only we could stop such petty squabbling!

I can respect someone elses belief system even though I may hold a different one,because one is not[/] better than another.You think you are better than an insect? You are wrong if you do,and I honestly mean that in the most positive way.

QuoteJudgements must be made.

Your judgement comes from a biased source-YOUR belief system.If you really want to know whether you should judge someone else,I would challenge you to "walk a mile in their shoes".If you could suddenly,completely adopt the beleif system of those you judge,I'd bet anything that you would change your tune pretty damn fast!

.Opinions can be had,but judgement is automatically  assuming everything and everyone within the circle of judgement to be lesser,and this is not true at all.

QuoteYou judge that its not worth it to respond to this, or you judge it is worth it and respond.

You've lost already with your first word.

Judgement is largely based on personal fear.Fear is a binding emotion.
Which has no place in the heart of soemone who wishes to reclaim their freedom and personal power (placed in service of course).

And as to whether I've "lost or won", I don't care a bit.There is no such thing as success or failure.It's all in the mind of conflicting beleif systems, merely getting tossed back and forth.

You respond w/such a negative post in the first place because you project a negative onto another.

Of course you are certainly entitled to your belief system,an your opnion with it,because it brings you harmony,but please keep your judgements to yourself-They really are useless.

Beavis:

What we mean by 'respecting someone elses beliefs' is not so much the content of the beliefs themselves... but that you should respect the fundamental right of an individual to hold any beliefs he likes about himself and the world around him. That is what we mean by 'respecting others beliefs'..
Doesnt mean you have to agree with the content of them.. you are free to disagree with them.. so no you dont have to respect the factual content of them as truth.. but you do have to respect that persons right to hold them and you shouldnt violate that by openly insulting them or the individual..

There is a big difference between disagreeing and debating between different beliefs and having opinions as to which is better, but quite another to openly insult people because of them.. the first point is about respect, the second is about a  lack of it.

Doug

Quote from: GandalfBeavis:

What we mean by 'respecting someone elses beliefs' is not so much the content of the beliefs themselves... but that you should respect the fundamental right of an individual to hold any beliefs he likes about himself and the world around him. That is what we mean by 'respecting others beliefs'..
Doesnt mean you have to agree with the content of them.. you are free to disagree with them.. so no you dont have to respect the factual content of them as truth.. but you do have to respect that persons right to hold them and you shouldnt violate that by openly insulting them or the individual..

There is a big difference between disagreeing and debating between different beliefs and having opinions as to which is better, but quite another to openly insult people because of them.. the first point is about respect, the second is about a  lack of it.

Doug

thank you for such a lucid post,Gandalf.

I can't see how God could care about us obeying a rule he never told us about.

God never told us whether should or shouldn't project.

That makes it our choice. If we want to project, that's fine. If we don't, that's fine too.

If God doesn't want us doing something, either he'll make it impossible for us to do, or he'll make sure we know we are not supposed to do it.

Probably God is not against it, only thing he wants us is to love and if OBE can help one expand consciousness and come closer to love then why not?

My favorite saint Padre Pio was known for bilocations and AP. I think it was a natural gift from God--like a result of constant prayer and meditation, he did not try to induce anything... That is what I am trying to concentrate on now.