The Astral Pulse

2012 and The Transition of the Ages => Welcome to 2012 and The Transition of the Ages => Topic started by: alexd on March 23, 2005, 11:41:02



Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: alexd on March 23, 2005, 11:41:02
2012 is probably one of the most noted dates (it may be even more anticipated than the year 2000). There are thousands of web pages about what will happen in 2012 and at the end of the Mayan calendar. Many information sources agree on the key information, with only minor differentiations. The common suggestion is that humanity will ascend to a higher level of consciousness leading up to that time. Now I'm not sure what to make of it because the information is quite relevant to today's times and is spread across a wide variety of sources, some of them quite good.

Recently I considered that the idea might be just another prophecy, and everybody is falling for it like Y2K proceeding the year 2000. But then I had an interesting thought. We reside in a thought-motivated reality. That is to say that our direction of thinking has shaped our reality over time. Many people are already aware of this. Many spiritualists also know that thoughts exist outside of self, in an independent block of energy. I had considered if everyone were to think a certain way reality would change in that way and it probably would. It is interesting to consider that even if there is no actual truth to any of the pertaining 2012 theories how much anticipation has been built around that time.

There is a mass of people who are anticipating a major shift in reality around 2012. If we can make reality happen by thought-power then it may be very well true that we can collectively make 2012 happen. This is quite ironical but it makes sense. There may be no prophecy for us as a human race, there may be no divine plan, but in unity we may be our own saviour and ascend into the new realms of reality by our own aspiration to do so.


Alex


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Gandalf on March 23, 2005, 14:04:00
2012 is probably one of the most noted dates (it may be even more anticipated than the year 2000). There are thousands of web pages about what will happen in 2012 and at the end of the Mayan calendar. Many information sources agree on the key information, with only minor differentiations.

That's not really suprising, as they all copy each other and regurgitate the same info.
btw its not really 'more anticipated than 2000'. 2000 was *far more known about* due to the majority of christian fundamentalists who thought it meant the end of the world. The same idea went around at the turn of the year 1000. Will these people never learn?
Other gullables followed them as well, although there were already stories going around about '2012' due to a fundamental misunderstanding of the Mayan Calender, which is peddled by irresponsible book authors and dodgy websites, but for the most part, people were fixated on 2000, and of course nothing happened. 2012 obsessives should take note.

As for the theory that people believing in 2012 might make it happen, well a lot of people believed in 2000 but it didnt make the world go bang in 2000 and substantially LESS people are aware of 2012; even if it is widely publisised, there is absolutely NO way that 2012 holds the same interest or psychological impact as the round date 2000; this date was ingrained on (christian) minds subconsiously and yet didnt result in diddly squat, certainly not the 'apocalypse' and the coming of jesus like the nutters were hoping for.


Recently I considered that the idea might be just another prophecy, and everybody is falling for it like Y2K proceeding the year 2000.

erm.... I kind of thought that was obvious!

The Mayan calender is an agricultural calender based on an astronomical system.. its FULL of cylces and renewal dates, they happen all the time and none of them mean 'awareness shifts' and end of the world scenarios. it simply the end of one computation cycle and the start of another. 2012 represents the end of a long dating cycle and the start of another. The whole 2012 myth is just that... nonsense!
I'm sorry apocalypse obsessives were disapointed that their mad visions were not fulfilled in 2000, but they better get used to it, because they're in for another disapointment in 2012. however, by then the 'big date' will already have moved off to some other time.

In fact i have already seen this process begin early, with some people moving towards yet other  dates.. and talking about 2016, 2025 etc etc.... ad infinitum ad nausium!
Doug


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Telos on March 23, 2005, 16:56:42
Every time I see the number "2012" I now get very sick. It is sad to see so many people looking towards the future for salvation or apogee or whatever. They should be looking at themselves now. Everyone could 2012 themselves now if they wanted to, by critically participating in their dreams. So, to answer your question Alex, I do not think there will be a 2012 in principle as long as people look to the stars, the Mayans, authors, or any other false God for their reward. (Indeed, the Judeo-Christian God, who pioneered the notion of a false God, may itself be worshipped as a false God).

But maybe another reason I get sick is because, before I ever knew of 2012, I asked a magic 8-ball a series of telescoping questions about when I would die. And it said 2012.

Oh, rapture! I'll be taken away with all the other freaks, further solidifying my status as a new age whacko. :(

[Edit: That was a joke, I don't actually believe that I will die in 2012. I doubt I will be that fortunate.]

[Another Edit: That was another joke.]


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Gandalf on March 23, 2005, 18:05:12
When I first heard of 'the rapture' I thought it was a joke.

When i heard you could by bumper stickers saying 'are you rapture-ready?', I began to despair for the sanity of the human species!  :wink:

Who would have believed you could have combined christian 'end time' beliefs with Star Trek? Only in America!

Doug


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: no_leaf_clover on March 23, 2005, 21:33:19
Quote
The Mayan calender is an agricultural calender based on an astronomical system


I'm curious as to what the positions of the sun in our galaxy have to do with agriculture. They had a yearly calendar, which is what farmers use today if I understand correctly. At least I've never heard of any farmers going by where the sun is in the galaxy, rather than where the Earth is around the Sun.

The date was not highly regarded by the Mayans for any practical material reason, but was important to their religious beliefs, thereby being of spiritual significance.

Why it is spiritually significant is not understood. I can understand being annoyed by certain claims that I'm not even going to mention for fear of being misunderstood in hasty responses, but that shouldn't be any reason to show an angry fist at the possibility of any meaning behind 2012, if even a symbolic one.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Gandalf on March 24, 2005, 02:09:16
No_leaf_clover:

I just checked and you are right about the calender not being connected with agriculture.

I stand corrected!

Doug


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: LordoftheBunnies on March 24, 2005, 10:38:26
It would be interesting if there was some sort gradual psychic shift in the world which begins around 2012.  Even if the collective psychic ability of everyone on the planet only rose by 2%, that could be enough to make sweeping changes in society.

If it does happen, I doubt that it will be anything like what some have described though.  Don't expect some sort of final salvation, or the aliens to save us for all time and the whole world to move into the astral plane.  And don't get your hopes up.  If society or the world did begin to change, it could in the beginning be puncuated by a very violent period of upheaval, which wouldn't be particularily fun.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Orchild on March 27, 2005, 11:22:30
People indeed should be more looking in themselves, rather then to 2012, but if you really wanna look at dates, 2009 will the date you need to set ur eye's on.. [edit]

I'll die 2011, i don't get sick.. do you think death is the end?? i don't


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: karnautrahl on March 27, 2005, 15:46:47
Why 2009?

Actually why not roll some numerological dice and be done with it-lets see how many weird explanations for patterns found in future dates we can find :-). A prophecy for each one found...

Is that a cynic note I see I'm writing here....I think it could be.  I've drawn a line underneath all the date hype and hysteria-the line being the things I believe are just dumb.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Orchild on March 27, 2005, 16:39:49
then stop talking in the section for it if your not interrested in this matter whatsoever. [edit]


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: karnautrahl on March 27, 2005, 17:10:57
Freedom of speech. It's about opinions on subjects is it not-so all points of view should be welcome-unless of course they are of personal inflamatory nature, of which mine are not or at least not intended to be. So I will not just do as I'm told and fold. I'm entitled as you are to express my opinion on the matter.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Gandalf on March 27, 2005, 17:17:45
Quite right. Members are reminded to adhere to a decent standard of courtesy when posting to the boards; its not that difficult to be polite, even when you disagree with someone.

Doug


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: redcatherine on March 27, 2005, 17:38:29
thanx alex'd good thread

2012 hmmm -Houghtons late picked verdelho musings :

i am sure that

Western Australia will not be under water submerged completely  
with a few of us escaping to take refuge in the hills

the east coast of North America will not break up in earth quakes either

the wheat will not be separated from the chaff globally and biblically

the wheat folks won't disappear into another dimension altogether
invisible to the chaff folks either

California won't sink into the Pacific Ocean at least not in 2012 lol

Atlantis won't miraculously rise

all of humanity will not suddenly be taken up -everyone out of the pool !!

AND

life on earth will not suddenly end at least not then in 2012.....

With all this press can anyone take the shift seriously ?

BUT

will there be a shift of consciousness ?

will there be a slight elevation of awareness in the newborn generations ?

will the earth itself raise its energy and vibration ?


Gee I hope so

it may be a fairy tale

a dream

a wine soaked hope

but we supposedly have had several shifts of consciousness already
moving from a non verbal scavenger hominid
to a verbal tool making humanoid cave creature
to a art designing fire using metal making human
to an unaware spiritual human being that wars a lot
to a well -most- of- us -have -some -clue  human being

can we possibly make it into a new level ?

yes if we all work together and stop looking for the apocalypse
if we all see light instead of dark
have faith instead of fear


"imagine ....i wonder if you can ...a brotherhood of man "

it could happen ....

may it begin today in your heart and mine
and spread to our families and into our world

enlightenment is a process not a destination
2012 won't be the panacea the deadline or the ultimate test either

it is only a prophecy
but as one of a hope and a dream
to lift up the vibration and become more aware

yeah I'll dream it
manifest it
will it
become it

let us light the way for the next ones that are born
that is all that the next shift is meant to incur
not an apocalypse at all
this is the opposite
it is the treasure
Pandora's box was opened centuries ago
when all the plagues pestilence and perils escaped
what was left behind ?
HOPE


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Wronski Feint on March 31, 2005, 04:53:16
I just thought of somthing. Why are we concentrating just on the mayan calender. Im sure there are other ancient calenders that has marked an ending of somthing(a cycle, the universe what ever) before 2012.  of course everything is a cycle so the ending would have happened before. Where does the mayan calendar begin? If we find that out then we know approx. how long one cycle of existance is.  Just a thought.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: beavis on March 31, 2005, 05:06:51
alexd
Quote
If we can make reality happen by thought-power then it may be very well true that we can collectively make 2012 happen.


as well as we can get a rebellious child to do calculus


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: no_leaf_clover on April 01, 2005, 02:38:24
Wronski,

I think they have the lengths of the cycles (or at least the basic ones and the one involving 2012) pinned down. The cycle involving 2012 is incredibly large but the exact number escapes me. It's on a link that's floating around here somewhere.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Frank on April 01, 2005, 06:10:58
Hi:

I think karnautrahl is right to use the word dumb. Because it is just that, IMO.

For donkeys years, certain sections of society have claimed the world will end on some date or other. 2012 will simply come and go just like all the other dates simply came and went. Yet the same tired old excuses will be brought out yet again. And so another date will be decided upon, and that one will come and go; and so another date will be decided, and that will come and go; and so another, and another, and they'll all just come and go.

No, it's not merely dumb, it's a form of social insanity. Where numbers of people keep performing the same action while expecting a different result. Oh, but wait, this time is different... why? Because there are just so many websites saying the same thing. Wow, that makes all the difference... ha ha ha ha.

You'd think they would get bored of playing the same record over and over and over. But perhaps that is all they have in their lives. It's a bit sad, I guess, that particular aspects of human society seek to translate their inner actions of social uncertainty, into the manifestation of  some kind of "doomsday" scenario.

Maybe doing that makes it easier for them to bear? Perhaps it's just another one of those natural therapies. Maybe the cure for social uncertainty is public humiliation?

Yours,
Frank


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: alexd on April 01, 2005, 07:09:22
We live in interesting and uncertain times. I think the world will end soon at the rate we are going prophecy or no prophecy. The point is that we are living in a much different reality than the one which existed 100 or even 1000 years ago. The information age and the globalism which spread across the world in the last few decades has revolutionized the nature of how we perceive our reality. The shift has encouraged people to broaden their awareness on issues that hardly came into question previously. The cultural and religious boundaries have faded rapidly and we can no longer really have certainty in many of the things that we previously believed so blindly. The empty space left behind by the revolution in modern thinking will hopefully allow us to introduce not only spiritual ways of thinking but a whole shift towards spirituality. The information age has revolutionized how things co-exist in many respects. Hopefully we won't stop the search for truth here or even continue building higher building, smarter weapons or better consumer goods. Perhaps we will begin the journey inward and this may be the next revolution in consciousness. Maybe 2012 is a wake up call. Maybe if enough people realize the destiny of humanity and pour so much thought into making the 2012 consciousness shift a reality, then just maybe it might just be.


Alex


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: no_leaf_clover on April 01, 2005, 10:47:04
What I think is dumb is living in times we are now and expecting absolutely nothing to happen in the next ten years. Global warming, political instabilities, mass extinction.. All of these things are going on, and unlike other periods of great change and revolution, our governments now have weapons that none of our known ancestors had. So if someone wants to step up, put the corrupt systems in their places, and start helping to ease the Earth's problems, they're going to have some serious issues with the systems holding those weapons. It hardly takes a prophet to realize something drastic is going to happen - and relatively soon.

Massive amounts of important coral are dying in the oceans. Three fourths of all animal species may be extinct in the coming decades because of global warming and man's destructive industries ( http://www.6thmassextinction.com/index.htm ). Unusual weather ( http://www.climatehotmap.org/ ) has been rampant over so much of the world that the UN has issued a strict warning ( http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0703-05.htm ) that we're heading in a bad direction, along with scientific study after scientific study that confirms this. Worst of all is that this can hardly be stopped now. Even if every nation cut back on its Co2 output beyond what Kyoto asks, the ozone will continue to deteriorate.

Let's all see how long we can ride all this out before it's painfully obvious that somebody's screwed up!

And just for the record this is the only date that I've ever actually believed to have some significance to it, even if nothing in particular happens on the exact date but just in the years around it. Bad things are going to go down in the next decade, Mayan Calendar or no Mayan Calendar.

Also just for the record, I don't have any social problems or 'uncertainties' as far as I know, either. I think that claim is a generalization greatly exaggerated to cover a large amount of people that it hardly applies to.

Maybe the people that constantly post on such topics to barrage such "prophecies" (if that's even the appropriate the term here) with their cynical views are simply trying to compensate for insecurities they have for their own future well-being with such obvious issues arising out of today's world. I say that knowing I have absolutely as much base as any other such claim made on either 'side' of the issue.

It's early in the morning and I may be a little groggy but all that still counts for something. When we look at what the world may be like in 2012 we hardly have to use our imaginations. It's right here in front of us, and it doesn't look pleasant.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: alexd on April 01, 2005, 12:51:40
Yes. And the only spark in the darkness of overshadowing degeneration of our global society is the revolution of the consciousness. We must stop with the sightless descent into superficial materialism and expand our awareness of a spiritual perception of reality; otherwise we may find ourselves as a race inevitably doomed. At the rate we are going now as a global society, we are going nowhere. A global transformation of thought is impending.


Alex


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Frank on April 01, 2005, 15:33:26
"At the rate we are going now as a global society, we are going nowhere."

Huh?

Our knowledge of the physical world now doubles, on average, every 8 years! How can you say "we are going nowhere"? Never in the history of our race have more people been so knowledgeable and informed, never has our technology been more advanced. Global Warming, pah, it's just a blip. No, not even that.

He he, how can we be all doomed? People talk about us being "wiped out". How can we be wiped out? That's just an extension of the very same limited thinking that causes people to think in terms of an eventual doomsday in the first place! Of course, it couldn't be that one of the first developments of the said consciousness shift, would be for a person to start thinking beyond such limited constructs as "doomsday" scenarios.

No, of course not, ha ha ha ha. That's just my cynicism. Yeah right, keep on taking the tablets guys!

People talk of a conciousness shift, which is all very well. There is such a shift taking place and has been for the past 100 years! It will begin to quicken within the next 20 years, and one discovery in particular will hasten the development of it rather quickly. The blueprints for the "shift" are held in Focus 4 of consciousness. Why not focus there and find out something real for a change? Rather than listening to all the regurgitated religious pap that passes for informed opinion. That kind of Dark Age crud may fool you guys, but it fools me not one iota... even less than that, in fact. What is less than an iota? Whatever it is, one of those, and less than it.

To the gloom and doom merchants, I'd like to say the world does not end in 2012. Year 2013 it's all business as usual. We'll all be living life and enjoying it, while you guys are grappling to think of another date to satisfy your morbid fantasies!

Yours,
Frank


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: alexd on April 01, 2005, 16:15:42
Of course today new technology is manifesting in the world faster then ever before. New military technologies, new information technologies, new communications technologies and more are being introduced. But where are we going? Sure maybe we can have a 500GB mp3 player the size of a toothpick in 5 years time or a 70GHz laptop perhaps. But will that makes us any happier than we are today? What spiritual progress will this provide? None.

Civilizations thriving thousands of years ago probably had a much more advanced spiritual awareness and even lacked desire for such superficial progress that we desire today. When it appears we are progressing we are digging our own grave in a sense. Global warming cannot be overstated. Apart from that, constant wars and still active nuclear facilities are not helping the world progress. Every nation that has risen to supreme power (Babylon, Egypt, Rome ect.) has fallen. However this time we can not only expect the US to fall (and it WILL fall) but the aftershock will not be as sparring as in previous historical events. The world is so globalized that everything is connected on many levels. Once a major power falls every other nation can be sure to be dragged down too.

Has anyone had a close look at the regimes the US is now undertaking? The US is regressing at an unprecedented rate. We are now beginning to see Big Brother become a reality right in front of us. As a society, are we now on the road to liberation or suppression? Liberation is where we should be heading and is what a shift in consciousness will bring, but is it where we are heading at the moment? The singularity or the disintegration of time is not a prophecy, nor a theory, but a reality. It WILL occur in the next 20 to 30 years if nothing major happens in 2012. This independently will probably bring us to the next layer of consciousness as the third dimension naturally transcends the fourth.

I guess what I am really trying to say is that we are not living in a golden age. We never have been. No matter how hard or how fast we push the progress bar. No matter how much information and facts we stuff our brains with. Until we reach spiritual awareness on a global level our humanity will be no more advanced then it was 1000 years ago.

On a side note, I am trying to progress in energy work and meditation and hope to be able to get into the different focus levels, and I will try to experience Focus 4 to gain a better understanding. At this stage however, my ideas come purely from a historical and personal context.


Alex


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Wronski Feint on April 01, 2005, 16:25:40
I see some people talking about politacal and social unstability, and how much humans know.   I was under the impression that the end of the world will be a natural event.  Dont argue with me about it being religious because itll happen naturally.

So if its a natural event, i dont think what the state of our being is.  Nature dont care weather were at war or at peace, itll end when it wants to end and its kind of arrogant for humans to think we control it.  Were nothing to this planet but another speicies, were not special. Im not saying anybody has said were special, im just making a statment.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Nostic on April 01, 2005, 19:28:09
You know, all you can do is change yourself, and do what you can do to improve the situation. Seems to me that the cynics want to stay cynical, and the "believers" want to stay "believers". How much is anyone convincing anyone else to change their minds?
But besides that, I think it would be difficult for anyone to deny that the world is a complete and utter mess. The only question really then is, are you going to help make it better? Yes or no? And if yes, how?


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: UniOne on April 16, 2005, 03:54:24
The time of  true judgment is at hand... You see... Humankind has always felt a vibe on thing yet to come...

I will say this much... the 144,000 are dying... you know one of them well...

Hollywood has overestimated the rapture a lot... It's not a spontaneous taking of believers, it is a death count of the 144,000 people who are purest of light...

When they die, the spiritual gates will flood open... and entities will be able to at last take presents in the physical plane once again... thus expanding the Light/Darkness war...

As a member of the Balance, and as the legendary Uni-One, I urge you to cling to your faith... For the time of great judgment is close at hand....

Our 2000 years are up...


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Frank on April 16, 2005, 04:34:32
Yawn...

Surely not the old battle of "light and dark" again? That same old record keeps getting played. You'd think after 2000 years they'd wanna listen to something different, ha ha ha.

It got to Number-1 in year 0000 and 2005 years later it's still in the charts, lol. It reminds me of Bridge Over Troubled Water in the '70s. It was in the album charts for like 3 years or something. I thought that was a long time, but the doom-and-gloom boys take the biscuit. :)

Yours,
Frank


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: UniOne on April 16, 2005, 04:42:30
Jeez, thanks for the seriousness Frank.... I'm being serious here...

I didn't spend 2 years researching on the powers of light and darkness just to make false assumptions...

Come on... don't you think that we're about to experience an astral war in the next few years?


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Frank on April 16, 2005, 05:23:21
Ha ha ha, an Astral war!

I've heard it all now. :)

Yours,
Frank

PS

Tell me, where did you happen to do this "research"?
It wasn't the Internet was it?


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: UniOne on April 16, 2005, 05:33:35
No! *groans* Not you too...

It began as I was walking in the hallway... in my high school... I was deeply thinking about my life... the things I had done, and the things I had to do, and how I had to do things at that time...

When suddenly, I felt a... well.... I felt... something....

I don't know what it was, but I was "hit" by something that forced me to ask myself, "Who am I?"

For two years I researched about our human believes, histories, and everything about us... I started to see that there was a bigger picture, one our religions haven't anticipated.... That our religions and sciences were connected... and that the fundamental forces of our world and of the divine were keys to understanding the nature of God himself...

I'm not BSing here... I'm dead serious, and if you can't respect that, then don't reply...


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Ben K on April 16, 2005, 06:26:34
Ah yes, your 2 years of studying human behavior gave you so much wisdom as oppsoed to Franks decades of research in the astral. Right.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: CaCoDeMoN on April 16, 2005, 08:26:06
Quote

Ha ha ha, an Astral war!

I've heard it all now. :)

 :D  Everytime someone mentions astral/demon wars it makes me laugh to tears. It remnids me of an extremely stupid anime called "Nightmare Campus" that I've seen in last year. There was even big amount of "demon war" believers at Astral Pulse...


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: no_leaf_clover on April 16, 2005, 08:48:43
Quote
I didn't spend 2 years researching on the powers of light and darkness just to make false assumptions...


How would one go about studying the powers of light and darkness exactly?


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Gandalf on April 16, 2005, 14:28:58
Yawn-a-rama!

Remember how we were all saying (those of us who have seen all this before!), how this latest 'prophesy' will be the new big thing until (of course) the date passes?
Those who were so into it will, as usual, struggle to find some suitable explanation as to why nothing happend, but by that time it doesnt really matter because the focus will have moved onto some other random date.. and so it goes on:

Well, looks like some people are already ahead of us:

The singularity or the disintegration of time is not a prophecy, nor a theory, but a reality. It WILL occur in the next 20 to 30 years if nothing major happens in 2012.

It begins!

Doug


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: alexd on April 16, 2005, 14:55:48
I don't recall a time in history that was anything like the time we are living in now. Maybe I'm a pessimist for thinking that doomsday is likely to be dawning. If I can put it more appropriately: change is likely.

The consciousness shift that has gained much popularity may occur because the world is changing at an unprecedented speed. People will obviously conclude that we are in a time where things are moving much faster and it means that something big is coming. It doesn't take prophesizing to do, only thinking.

Yes we can say that prophecies always appear out of society that attract people like a magnet only to be disproved completely. It is possible to make suppositions, from this viewpoint, looking back over how history has progressed. We can say the former but we cannot say that humanity has not changed drastically in the last millennium. Hasn't there been a growth in evolution? An improvement in spiritual consciousness? As a humanity we are heading somewhere, certainly, or hopefully we are not stuck in static.

If that place we are heading is a more spiritually conscious state of awareness then it is not a prophecy that one day we will get there. The thought hit me (that caused me to start this topic) that it is up to humanity to make the consciousness shift with a revolution in thinking processes, and 2012 may be the incentive to make the next step in spiritual evolution. 2012 isn't predominately a negative prophecy. If so many people are looking at it as a chance for change, then maybe that motivation for change will bring spiritual transformation to a global level.


Alex


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Frank on April 16, 2005, 18:34:56
Alexd:

I don’t want to sound like I’m jumping on your case, you are welcome to express your opinion here and all that, but aren’t you just stating the obvious?

There was never a time in history that was the same as any other time. So what’s the difference with now? I mean, it’s not as if all of history was all the same and now, suddenly, changes are taking place. Change has ALWAYS taken place! Change has always taken place to the extent where there would only be something worthy of note if change suddenly stopped changing place. Like, we looked back and realised, whoops, hey guys and gals, no change has taken place the past 10 years… oh my… what the heck is going on? Is the world ending or something?

You say that “maybe” you are a pessimist for thinking that doomsday is likely to be dawning. Why the maybe? Is not the very definition of a pessimist someone who harbours feelings that doomsday (of whatever description) is likely to be dawning?

The “world” is changing at an unprecedented speed, yes, because we are changing at an unprecedented speed. What took 50 years before now takes perhaps 10 years. I don’t mind that, personally, I love these kinds of changes. Problem is, though, some types of people get “left behind”. They get to thinking their world is ending and I suppose it is, in a sense. But then they go and try to impose their existentialist viewpoint and/or their faulty thinking upon all of us.

It’s a bit sad really, when I think about it. A group of people all “huddled together” praying and hoping their time will come. It must be very embarrassing making all those public outcries only to become a laughing stock. I suppose in the past they got away with it because communication between us all was not so readily available. Of course, it’s much easier these days to get your message across, so to speak. But, then again, it works both ways in that the amount of ridicule that’s going to be aimed at these people when 2012 simply comes and goes will be magnified also.

We are already anticipating the “fudge” concepts these people will typically be coming out with. Let’s not have the, “Sorry we got our dates wrong” excuse this time, perlease, not that again! That kind of tosh has been churned out for nigh on TWO THOUSAND YEARS! It’s time to change the record, surely.

There is going to be no “spiritual transformation”. There will, however, be a gradual shift in the basis of our thinking that will begin to escalate over the coming 2 or 3 decades. But that’s nothing new. That has been taking place for the past 200 years! We are, in fact, moving away from the traditional notions of spirituality and spiritual transformations. It is our sciences that dominate now, and that continues to the point where all the superstitious tosh just falls away like a 1st-stage booster rocket burning up on re-entry.

You are, however, quite correct to say the up and coming consciousness shift will be caused by a revolution in our thinking process. This is, as I say, quite correct. But then for you to start talking about spiritual prophesies and end-of-the-world doom and gloom. Well, that hardly constitutes a revolution in thinking now does it. That’s just the same old pap my ancestors and me have been laughing at for the past 2000 years, lol.

Yours,
Frank


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: MJ-12 on April 16, 2005, 23:50:10
hmmmm


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: UniOne on April 17, 2005, 03:42:59
May God have mercy on all of your souls.... for if the path of Unification is complete and humans complete their "spiritual evolution" without any of you...

Well... I'll just feel sorry for the person who has to be in the fallout nuclear blast...


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Ben K on April 17, 2005, 03:55:43
unione, enough already, il just shoot you a pm when i feel my soul needs to be saved.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: UniOne on April 17, 2005, 03:57:06
Fine by me... but don't say I didn't warn you...


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Ben K on April 17, 2005, 04:01:54
Hah, you think your gonna get off easy? When blown away by that atomic blast and land in heaven, you bet your butt God is gonna hear about it.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: CaCoDeMoN on April 17, 2005, 09:03:59
Quote

I don't recall a time in history that was anything like the time we are living in now. Maybe I'm a pessimist for thinking that doomsday is likely to be dawning. If I can put it more appropriately: change is likely.

Similar changes were prophesied many times in the history. I've read that one of the dates was 1550-1560(not sure about date). Many intelligent people believed that some kind of shift in humanity's consciousness will happen(even a famous Polish writer Kochanowski was one of the believers). Of course nothing happened. This time will be no different.
Quote

May God have mercy on all of your souls.... for if the path of Unification is complete and humans complete their "spiritual evolution" without any of you...

Well... I'll just feel sorry for the person who has to be in the fallout nuclear blast...

Why do every belief system has to control believers with fear? When people are afraid they will believe in strangest things(like war on terror - it's BUSHIT :wink: ).
Path of unification?  I'd rather go to hell than participate in such thing.
Quote

Fine by me... but don't say I didn't warn you...

Who cares?


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: data on April 17, 2005, 11:40:32
As much as I am philosophically aware. I am also politically aware. I for one, based on my understanding of global events today, think Alex's apprehensions are very valid. There is indeed a crisis around the corner that could flare up into something disastrous.

Now, Frank and others attitude of "nothing is wrong" while well intentioned and to keep us from pan icing or thinking negatively, is as good as apathy.

However, the truth is the state of the world today, in all areas, has never been as bad. People are losing their rights everyday on false pretenses of terrorism. Oil prices are in danger of peaking.z I have already felt the effects of this at home. And the war rhetoric is stepping up between all of the major powers. It's a pretty dire state. I am not the type for panicking, but if this keeps up, it could culminate into something catastrophic and this will not be averted by ignoring it or pretending everything is okay.

Also there is an upsurge in natural disasters, volcanic activity and tectonic activity. Global warming is actually a very real phenomena and it's effects are being felt, causing many governments to caution. There are what many are now calling climate changes occurring.

If that is enough the bird flu pandemic threat, cautioned by many scientists and professional bodies, now claiming more than 80 human lives, is now showing signs that it can be transferred from human to human.

So, while panic would be needless worry, but caution of what could happen(probably before 2012) would be advisable.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: karnautrahl on April 17, 2005, 15:29:35
If I can change something, then I would. If I can't then I can't. Worrying about it is a complete and total waste of time. Same goes for guilt etc...pointless unless the emotion can guide you to a genuine solid worthwhile course of action, and not just a sop to some ideal.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: no_leaf_clover on April 17, 2005, 20:16:18
Quote
If I can change something, then I would. If I can't then I can't. Worrying about it is a complete and total waste of time.


The way you're looking at it seems to like someone in a tunnel with a train coming at them at full speed. They can't stop the train, you're right, but they can move to the side and get off the tracks, and hope theres enough room for safety. Same if there was an impending world crisis. You would have time now, if you really wanted, to secure yourself and your loved ones. Whether or not there's an actual risk involved if you do not is another issue. It doesn't seem to hard to look around and pick out potentially major problems, though.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: karnautrahl on April 17, 2005, 20:51:02
If I can change something I would, also implies avoidance I would think. It implies that if I can't change the thing, but it would effect me, then if I can change something to make sure it doesn't effect me (and my loved ones) then I would.  If I can see that there's nothing I can do in either way then I'm not going to kill myself with worry about it either.

I'd love to know how many people in the world can genuinely harness real magical/healing power of one kind or another. If there are truly many that do, can that ever be used to begin to alter the future course of history? Now that's something I'd be intrigued to work on-if there was ANY reality to that suggestion there I just made.

Anyway I digress

Quote
You would have time now, if you really wanted, to secure yourself and your loved ones


Secure them from what exactly? Which crisis should I pick? There are so many to choose from. Ok, I apologise-that was nearly sarcastic :-), and yes there is stuff like the tsunami that happened and other crap will happen too.  However simply living entails some risk, and whilst you can negate the large proportion of various risks, natural disasters are hard to totally avoid if the warnings are too vague time and location wise.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: no_leaf_clover on April 17, 2005, 21:29:19
Quote
Secure them from what exactly? Which crisis should I pick? There are so many to choose from.


Maybe not much to choose from in the UK besides some random freak weather, yeah. And you're right; that'll happen nonetheless.

Here in the US there's a rising probability of great civil problems that are potentially disastrous to go along with that, though. And at the same time, I basically live on top of the Appalachians, which would be a nice (relatively) safe haven from both weather/climate changes and violent political situations/war. Only real issue would be if Washington was ever nuked, but I'm hoping that would never happen anyway. :)


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: data on April 18, 2005, 08:17:11
No_Leaf_Clover,

It is interesting you speak of US civil problems. I have read quite a bit about a possibility of a civil war in US. Share your insight with me :)

karnautrahl,

That is what is apathy is. It is when nobody does anything about problems. It is very natural for us to do. However, simply ignoring a problem, does not make a problem go away.

A lot of the problems today have been brewing for quite a long time due to the apathy of people. However, it does not mean they are inevitable, if as a society we made a collective effort, we can still avert the dangers of tomorrow.

However, if nothing is done about the world problems today, they will just continue unfettered, like before, and amount into a storm. I guess the biggest problem in the social psyche, is that there is no problem. You deal with that by campaiging for awareness.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: karnautrahl on April 18, 2005, 10:05:12
Judging by how many problems, crisis and issues there are, it's entirely possible for ones entire consciousness to be consumed by such awareness. Imagine you have the power to help one hungry starving child, and you are taken to meet a thousand of them so that you can choose who to help.  It's a bit like that.  Now I know there are several various answers to that analogy, including trying to get another 1000 people to help which is true. The point

I'm making is however that there are that many issues in the world that one HAS to tune out the vast majority of them virtually. Especially when the information sources are often so difficult to completely trust.  It doesn't mean one likes that fact, however you could make yourself quite paranoid and ill by being immersed in it all-I know, some of the people I have met have actually become the most awful, righteous types of people that repel other nearly because of this.  In a world of 6 billion people-something I've always felt was too many for Earth really (just a feeling and I know no solution)-it's not surprising that the majority have this apathy. What can each of them do? making a roomful of people act in the same direction can be difficult enough, try it with thousands, then millions and finally everyone? Only been known to have partly succeeded in times of severe dogmatic control-Nazis, religion etc.

I'm not advocating a giving up attitude here. I am explaining why I'm not going all out on issues etc. I work on people when asked with healing, I try to perform any magic work I do with a part of it directed towards altering the future in a better way.

If I cast a spell asking for a change, I endeavour to perform a balance, though in this I am a beginner.  However whilst some issues might be helped by individual input there are others that only the whole planet working to gether would alleviate-even then the outcomes are doubtful.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: no_leaf_clover on April 18, 2005, 21:38:31
Data,

The US is currently going through the same kind of changes Germany was in the early 1930s. Our Reichstag was 9/11, and the science supporting that claim is constantly being refined more and more. Even now, the case for 9/11 being an inside job is much stronger than the official government reports, and I'm fairly certain similar events with be manufactured down the road to ensure the federal government more power. I just think there are going to be problems at home before anyone has to invade us, just because of our democratic tradition. It won't be like our last civil war, either; there are no borders between the people and the system.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Frank on April 18, 2005, 22:34:46
Yeah, they do say that empires rot and fall from the core. So maybe it's the beginning of the end.

I suppose that's where all the end of the world talk stems from. If gasoline prices rose tomorrow in the USA to what we in Europe pay anyway, they'd certainly think their world was ending, lol. Roll on 100 USD a barrel I say, better still, make it a hundred and fifty.

I'm not sure where all this talk about a US invasion comes from. Quite what you guys have got that we can't live without I cannot fathom. It's certainly not your cars, ha ha, or your beer...

Yours,
Frank


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Ben K on April 18, 2005, 23:22:46
Excuse me for asking, and i dont mean to sound cynical or anything, but why not just do what that one lady did and find out the lottery numbers in the astral? then, you can move to panama or something and you wont have to worry about any war or any of that crap.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Frank on April 18, 2005, 23:50:46
Lottery numbers, lol, it doesn't work.

I suppose the person in question just got lucky and they happened to be into that kind of thing. Like, someone does their family's birthdates and they win. So the winning solution is to do your family's birthdates the same way, nope, it doesn't work, unfortunately. Energy stocks are definitely a safer bet, I reckon. :)  As I say, roll on 150 USD a barrel!

You can experience the notion of winning as a concept in F4oC, ha ha ha, but I haven't found a way yet of "seeing" the future. Not as a concrete entity. As a series of likely probabilities, yes, but not as a definite, written in stone kind of thing. I'm not saying it is definitely impossible, but in my experience I'd judge it to be highly unlikely, put it that way.

Yours,
Frank


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Wronski Feint on April 19, 2005, 09:25:46
Quote from: UniOne
The time of  true judgment is at hand... You see... Humankind has always felt a vibe on thing yet to come...

I will say this much... the 144,000 are dying... you know one of them well...

Hollywood has overestimated the rapture a lot... It's not a spontaneous taking of believers, it is a death count of the 144,000 people who are purest of light...

When they die, the spiritual gates will flood open... and entities will be able to at last take presents in the physical plane once again... thus expanding the Light/Darkness war...

As a member of the Balance, and as the legendary Uni-One, I urge you to cling to your faith... For the time of great judgment is close at hand....

Our 2000 years are up...


HeHe, omg I just read this, its helarious.  My thoughts about this:

Listen up here pal, do you know how many people die in a year? do you think all of them are evil or somthing. People 'of the purest light' have been dying scince humans existed.  Just think about children and babies alone in a year, who die of deseise and other problems.  There has probaly been lots more then a 144,000 innocents to die for a while know, and guess what-im not wearing my highwaters or heading for the hills.  

Im all for reading signs of the end but you gotta just get over it, yes the world will end eventually woopy doo. But it wont be long (by universal standards) before it starts back up again.  

And what is 'The Balance'? Lemme guess? A seceret orginazation to protect mankind against the forces of evil.  Blah Blah ok ill play along, you a great warrior of light sent from the Hevans to save humanity.  Thanks.  Get off it, youre just human.

Sorry if this seems like bashing, but its kinda naive to think we humans are more important to the universe, than a hill of ants are to us. But i guess its good to beleive in somthing, so whatever.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: data on April 19, 2005, 10:57:25
Quote
Im all for reading signs of the end but you gotta just get over it, yes the world will end eventually woopy doo. But it wont be long (by universal standards) before it starts back up again.


I see this philosophy endorsed by many spiritual people. Yes, even though the soul is eternal and cannot be destroyed. It does not mean we completely forget our physical responsibilities and our social responsibilities. As long as we are here we have certain duties to fulfill.  What can be more noble than saving the souls of others and yourself.

Suppose hell freezes over the next day. Suppose there are apocalyptic wars. Suppose society collapses. Suppose we have to constantly hear the howling and crying of others every moment, because of the immense misery the "end" has brought. How do you think that will affect your soul? Won't it be so easier to just lose your mind.

Everything that happens in our lives has an effect on us. If we are suddenly overcome by vast negativity. How do you think that will affect us. We carry this burden with us to the other worlds as well. So never neglect your physical. It is important as any other aspect of being.

Quote
Sorry if this seems like bashing, but its kinda naive to think we humans are more important to the universe, than a hill of ants are to us. But i guess its good to beleive in somthing, so whatever.


We are very important to the universe. Even the ant is. We are here remember.


If there is a problem in life, deal with it. If you don't, the problem won't just go away by it's own. The attitude "prevention is better than cure" is even better. A lot of the problems in society today only take a collective effort to cure them, and to prevent them from growing further. Apathy is not a solution; it's an escape.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: karnautrahl on April 19, 2005, 15:52:39
Sometimes there are problems, that you just don't have a way to solve. Then what?


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: data on April 19, 2005, 20:09:27
Karun, I am of the belief that no problem is insurmountable. Yes, difficult perhaps, but definitely not unsolvable.

Let's put it this way, even if you were to fall into hell by losing your mind,  you will still overcome it. Most of the problems today can be solved by simply stopping them from growing. If you want to stop weeds growing - what do you do? You uproot them. If you simply cut them at the top, they will grow back again.

We need to uproot the source of problems in the world today by mounting a collective effort to do it. All problems may seem different on the surface and and unrelated. However, what these problems really are, are manifestations of the social consciousness. Rising oil prices, terrorism, dysfunctional families, corrupt governments to teenage pregnancy. These may all seem like very different problems - however, originate from the same source. The social seed.

So it is our society we need to transform, by concentrating on the root problems of our social psyche, and all other minor problems will cease as well. The root is ignorance. No it is not Iran. It is not oil. It is not climate changes. It is not religion. It is not even corrupt governments(who elected them in the first place?) it is ignorance. Plain ignorance.

As soon as people wake-up to who they are, what reality they live in, what consequences their actions have, and how they relate to the universe and take control of their lives, and the well being of society, the problems will cease. This requires as I said earlier; an awareness campaign.

In some ways there is already an awareness campaign of the ushering in of the new-age belief systems. However, they are not enough, and have not actually helped make us wiser. I think they have made many dumber and credulous.

These are unregulated systems. There are so many modalities, and internal competition between sects, groups.  There are so many charlatans who claim they are in contact with interdimensional or extraterrestrial beings. There are so many commercial companies tainting the reputation of the new-age by selling useless merchandize like "Activate your Kundalini in 30 days" or  "How to teleport"  or "winning lotteries with magic"  Unfortunately, a lot of it is blind faith. Ask someone when they say "We are going to ascend into the 5th dimension" why they think this; they won't know.

Then there are those(more relevant to this discussion) who think love is the answer to all their problems. I recall when I had a conversation quite similar to this,  with a friend of mine(a single mother) of the violations of civilian rights by the state, and what does she think we should do about it. Her answer was "Send the state love and the problem will heal itself" after I tried to interject some reality, she said "Don't talk negative"

So many people seem to be sleep walking these days. Living in bubbles-universes. Hiding from reality.  This leaves the people who are awake. Those who know there is something wrong. Yet, are not lifting a finger to do anything, either because they think it is futile or they are waiting for someone else to do it, or because they have lost faith in physical reality, need to do something. Then there are those who know people are sleep walking and are taking advantage of them(governments, corporations etc ) molding them into place, playing on their naivety, getting them to sign away from their freedom and their mind. I don't think these governments are accountable. I have respect for these governments. I respect them because they are awake.

However, it could be much worse than it is today. We could be living in dark-techno realities. We could be micromanaged or linked to computers(a matrix of sorts) we could lose our individuality completely. Where do you think the latest trend of human microchipping is heading. I agree with no_leaf_cover, the changes in US domestic policy is a lot like the third Reich. The changes in international geopolitics are a lot like the changes before WWII.

However, if nobody does anything about the human condition today, then what I outlined as the worst, could actually become a reality. As they say those who don't learn from the past, are condemned to repeat it.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Aileron on April 19, 2005, 20:20:19
the frightening thing is, almost one-third of the population of the U.S. believe enough in the coming signs, of the end of days, that they will do nothing to stop them. Meaning, if our world gets bonked up, its the way it is supposed to be I guess.
So, many of us who want some beautiful epiphany to occur, to create some better solutions to the waning circumstances of our world.

Its hard to help each other, when many of us dont mind the bad things, because faith tells us that God will take care of his flock.

We are living in a perpetually intentional degenerating world....

There are many ways for us to wake, to cut the sleep from our eyes and "reveal" what is really going on....but then again, who can tell when they have awaken and when they are still asleep?
A lot of people out there feel they understand, that they are "awake" but in reality to others of us who feel differently, they are not, and vice versa....


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Wronski Feint on April 21, 2005, 00:04:04
Quote from: data

I see this philosophy endorsed by many spiritual people. Yes, even though the soul is eternal and cannot be destroyed. It does not mean we completely forget our physical responsibilities and our social responsibilities. As long as we are here we have certain duties to fulfill.  What can be more noble than saving the souls of others and yourself.


I dont have 'duties' I choose what to do, God didnt make me a grocery list and send me to the store.  I agree with saving other souls, but not for the sake of being noble.  You should do it because that soul needs help and youre not just walking up to someone and unloading a bunch of stuff about the world ending and they need to make peace, because maybe thats not what they need to hear. Now if god did intend for me to help people then I will see the people who really need help and I will help.  But still, its a cycle its going to end, you shouldnt be surprised when it does.

Quote from: data

Suppose hell freezes over the next day. Suppose there are apocalyptic wars. Suppose society collapses. Suppose we have to constantly hear the howling and crying of others every moment, because of the immense misery the "end" has brought. How do you think that will affect your soul? Won't it be so easier to just lose your mind.


If there will be apocalypitc wars then ill deal with that when it gets here.  I dont think the end will be that terrible, ist not like the world will burst into flames and we all die a slow and painful agonizing death so we can go to heaven.  Yet i beleive it will be natural and not as literal as the bible says, there will be symbolic events that occur. And itll probaly be quick and painless, to the ones who dont deserve punishment.  Yes itll be nice to just quit and scream with everyone else but thats not me.  How will it affect my soul? If i get backed up into a corner, i fight. So if all this pain and suffering is around me and it starts to push against me then I will just fight it away.

Quote from: data

Everything that happens in our lives has an effect on us. If we are suddenly overcome by vast negativity. How do you think that will affect us. We carry this burden with us to the other worlds as well. So never neglect your physical. It is important as any other aspect of being.


Negitivity is a mindset brought on by things that happen to us.  Its not a cloud of poisiones gas, so we must realize that negitivity only exist in our minds and push it out, or in other words 'get over it'.  No, I dont thik we carry it on, our state of being will change with every world that we go to, fear, anger, happines, sadness are all earthly states of the soul and when we travel to other worlds we will get new feeling  and leave the other ones. So it depends on where you go to depend on how you feel.  I cant neglect my physical for i am in the physical so, thats like saying dont neglect air when i got to breathe.

Quote from: data

We are very important to the universe. Even the ant is. We are here remember.

Im gonna have to disagree on this.  Being here has nothing to do with our importance.  Of course this made me think of somthing else.  How do we know when the worlds ends, it ends for everything.  Im sure the dinosaurs thought the world ended, when it was most of their entire poplulation.  So if every human dies, then we think the world has ended,b ut really the universe and earth just reneiws itself.  

Quote from: data

If there is a problem in life, deal with it. If you don't, the problem won't just go away by it's own. The attitude "prevention is better than cure" is even better. A lot of the problems in society today only take a collective effort to cure them, and to prevent them from growing further. Apathy is not a solution; it's an escape.


Im not sure this is directed toward me, or everything single thing that you wrote is exactly directed toward me (if not im sorry for wasiting text).  But i dont have a problem with life. I like it, its going pretty good so far.  I know a problem wont go away on its own.  But their will be problems and always be problems in life and I accept that.  No matter what state of mind I have.  

Well, thats it for this post. Have a nice day.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Frank on April 21, 2005, 00:52:39
Quote from: data
If you want to stop weeds growing - what do you do?


You stop calling them weeds.

Yours,
Frank


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: data on April 21, 2005, 07:07:11
Quote
dont have 'duties' I choose what to do, God didnt make me a grocery list and send me to the store. I agree with saving other souls, but not for the sake of being noble. You should do it because that soul needs help and youre not just walking up to someone and unloading a bunch of stuff about the world ending and they need to make peace, because maybe thats not what they need to hear. Now if god did intend for me to help people then I will see the people who really need help and I will help. But still, its a cycle its going to end, you shouldnt be surprised when it does.


Actually, you do have duties. You play a role in society. Everyone has their duties and responsibilities. I don't say god chose them for you. I think you chose them yourself even before you incarnated.

Quote
How will it affect my soul? If i get backed up into a corner, i fight. So if all this pain and suffering is around me and it starts to push against me then I will just fight it away.


It is much difficult to walk the walk than it is to talk the walk. Not everyone of us have this resolve. You may be very unique or you just maybe just like everyone who claim they would do such and such if x,y or z happened, and when it does happen, they cower in the corner. Very recently I witnessed a very dramatic demonstration of this. In front of my house formed a mob of youths, one of them was beating up this guy, and this carried on for some 5 min, the guy was covered in blood. He did not lift a finger to fight back. After it was over, the guy actually went with the mob. Bizarre. (In-fighting?)

Around two or three days later. The guy(the victim) came back with his own friends to show his blood stains. Suddenly he was a hero. He was laughing about them, ridiculing them and telling exaggerated stories, and promising revenge. Yet, I know, that when it all happened, he just let himself get beat up and was so scared, he went along with them after it was over.

I personally could not make such a claim. As I don't know whether I would cower in the corner or fight.  Remember, all of our claims, thoughts, beliefs and ideas are tested throughout life. There is a lot of power in words. Be careful what you say.

You may feel very differently when it becomes real. It won't just be a hypothetical anymore. Even the most spiritual of people may find themselves treading on others to ensure their survival. In times like these, our survival instincts are kicked into gear. As I said, it becomes so much easier to lose your mind. Why allow it to happen in the first place?

Quote
Negitivity is a mindset brought on by things that happen to us. Its not a cloud of poisiones gas, so we must realize that negitivity only exist in our minds and push it out, or in other words 'get over it'. No, I dont thik we carry it on, our state of being will change with every world that we go to, fear, anger, happines, sadness are all earthly states of the soul and when we travel to other worlds we will get new feeling and leave the other ones. So it depends on where you go to depend on how you feel. I cant neglect my physical for i am in the physical so, thats like saying dont neglect air when i got to breathe.



I respectfully disagree. Fear, anger, happiness, sadness are not just earthly states. They are feelings of your soul. It is an archetypal language of the soul. The soul does not speak in words. It speaks in feelings and in thoughts. That is why it is alive - because it feels. It is sentient. You will feel no matter which plane of existence you are in. Personally, if what you said would true, it would negate our sentience. I know what it is to like not to feel(or think you are not feeling) it's quite miserable.

Do you believe in astral projection. Have you astrally projected? If you have, then you may agree with me, that you retained memories from the astral. You may also agree with me that you retained your physical memories in the astral. What does this tell you? It tells you that you retain your memories even in the other worlds. This is what decides where you stand in the astral hierarchy. If you have low vibrations you may find yourself in the lower astrals in what have been popularly called the hellish dimensions. If you have high vibrations. You may find yourself in the higher astrals in what has popularly been called the heaven dimensions.

Krishna said in the Bhagavad Gita that the physical plane is the karma field. It is here many souls incarnate to earn karma and to transform themselves. The actions we perform here determine our karma. It could be said that our soul memories is our karma. When we pass away, perhaps god's judgment, is really you judging your own life as it flashes by you, and your judgment then, where you can never have been more honest with yourself, then decides where you will go.

Therefore, wouldn't it be so much better that your social environment facilitates a a positive mind. A negative environment will have a negative effect. Unless you have the inner will power and resolve of Jesus, who retained his purity even when society crucified him. There are not many of us who can do this. So, it is important you help others, to help yourself and help yourself to help others. This means caring about your world and looking after her.

Quote
Im gonna have to disagree on this. Being here has nothing to do with our importance. Of course this made me think of somthing else. How do we know when the worlds ends, it ends for everything. Im sure the dinosaurs thought the world ended, when it was most of their entire poplulation. So if every human dies, then we think the world has ended,b ut really the universe and earth just reneiws itself.


This recalls to me an Indian philosopher, Kanada, who propounded the theory of atomism. There is a childhood story about Kanada, that really touched me. It goes that one day while at the Ganges, where pilgrims were making offerings of flowers and rice in temples, Kanada saw how grains of rice were littered all around the streets. He started gathering these grains one by one, and soon a crowed of curious onlookers gathered around him, wondering what he was doing. A learned sage passing by noticed the crowd and say Kanada incessantly picking up these grains. He then questioned Kanada as to why he was picking up these worthless grains of rice, that even a beggar would not care to pick up. Kanada then said "However minuscule an object maybe, it is nonetheless a part of this universe. Individuals grains of race may seem worthless, but a collection of just 100 grains makes a person's meals. The collection of many meals feeds an entire family. Ultimately, humanity is made up of many families, thus even a single grain of race was as important as all the valuable riches in the word"

So, however vast this universe may seem, it is nonetheless made up of so many minuscule parts. Thus the ant is important. And so are we. We are all expressions of the same universal life energy. We are all important. That is why we are here.

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Im not sure this is directed toward me, or everything single thing that you wrote is exactly directed toward me (if not im sorry for wasiting text). But i dont have a problem with life. I like it, its going pretty good so far. I know a problem wont go away on its own. But their will be problems and always be problems in life and I accept that. No matter what state of mind I have.


Problems ARE a part of life - so ARE solutions. So accept that too :)






Frank, and by not calling it a weed, will that make it any less of a weed ;)
Obviously, the weed existed before somebody called it a 'weed'


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Wronski Feint on April 21, 2005, 21:29:44
If you just stop calling them weeds then youre gonna have a strange unammed plant growing in your yard. :wink:

Well, data, were just gonna have to agree on dissagreeing.  Im not gonna think the same way you do and you dont think the same way I do.  No hard feelings, i respect the fact that you have beleifs and you are willing to argue them.  We just have different perspectives of this world. :)


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Frank on April 21, 2005, 22:01:39
Data:

My comment was meant to reinforce the fact that you are placing a value judgement upon a plant. In the same way you are attempting to place a value judgement on other people's experiences.

It's all very well reiterating these cute little stories about indian gurus or whatever. But there is a big wide world out there full of real people in real situations. If someone should choose to employ themselves in the act of picking up grains of rice from the floor and gain satisfaction from that, then good luck to them. It's not my thing but, then again, it takes all kinds to make a world. And, after all, it beats firing missiles at each other, lol.

You say you will feel emotions regardless of what plane of existence you are in. Erm, that's not strictly correct. The discussion of which would be off-topic for the thread, but maybe you should think again on that. You say that emotions are not earthly states, but they are objective communications, so that would strongly suggest a physical state. Anyhow, that's by the by.

I was wondering where you got all this info from? You appear to subscribe to all these "vibrational" theories so I'm guessing you are into a religious belief system of some kind.

Yours,
Frank


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: jilola on April 21, 2005, 22:18:20
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It's all very well reiterating these cute little stories about indian gurus or whatever. But there is a big wide world out there full of real people in real situations. If someone should choose to employ themselves in the act of picking up grains of rice from the floor and gain satisfaction from that, then good luck to them. It's not my thing but, then again, it takes all kinds to make a world. And, after all, it beats firing missiles at each other, lol.


But Frank! But Frank! IS it not clear that the rice grain story is a metaphor of a seriously important fact, namely that the change begins with the individual doing what's right despite how silly and futile it may seem at the moment.

It's not necessarily picking up actual grains but definitely living and treating others the way that is conductive to the delelopment of humanity and society.


But I think you were being sarcastic  8)  so no worries.

2cents & L&L
Jouni


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: data on April 22, 2005, 09:33:56
Wronski Feint, that is fair enough. However, not all of what I said was belief. Some of what I said what logic, where 2+2 = 4. If you tell me 2+2 = 5, then is it just a matter of that it is just our beliefs, or am I right and you are wrong or viz-versa. Personally, I think there are rights and wrongs in this universe. We can't all be right and we can't all be wrong.

Quote from: Frank
Data:

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My comment was meant to reinforce the fact that you are placing a value judgement upon a plant. In the same way you are attempting to place a value judgement on other people's experiences.


No, I am simply calling a weed a weed. I never said it was good or bad.

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It's all very well reiterating these cute little stories about indian gurus or whatever.[ But there is a big wide world out there full of real people in real situations./quote]

These Indian gurus are real people from real situations living very real lives.  We can learn from their wisdom. As we can learn from anyone.

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If someone should choose to employ themselves in the act of picking up grains of rice from the floor and gain satisfaction from that, then good luck to them. It's not my thing but, then again, it takes all kinds to make a world. And, after all, it beats firing missiles at each other, lol.


Jiljola has hit the nail on the head. This is not about the actual act of picking up grains of rice from the floor, it is a metaphor for even the smallest of things are as important as the biggest of things and how small things lead to big things.

The universe may seem vast and it easy to think of ourselves as insignificant relative to it. Yet, without those minuscule atoms, there would be no universe. A garbage man may think of himself as insignificant relative to a lawyer, but without that garbage man, who is going to clean the garbage.

We all play a role in this society and in this universe. We are all important to this universe. This is more about accepting ourselves for who we are. It is not about belief.

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You say you will feel emotions regardless of what plane of existence you are in. Erm, that's not strictly correct. The discussion of which would be off-topic for the thread, but maybe you should think again on that. You say that emotions are not earthly states, but they are objective communications, so that would strongly suggest a physical state. Anyhow, that's by the by.


The operative word here is 'objective' The others planes of existence, are just that, other planes of existence.  As long as you can observe, you exist separate from the observed. In the same way a wave in an ocean has a separate existence from the ocean.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, as I am not sure if you support Bruce interpretations and experiences, but Bruce has talked about 'astral wild life', 'astral civilizations' and 'astral meetings with other souls' If this was a subjective plane, how could you have objective experiences?

I am inclined to believe everyone else, especially the yogis, when they say the astral is just a subtle world, and it is not the only subtle world. That makes the most sense to me.

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I was wondering where you got all this info from? You appear to subscribe to all these "vibrational" theories so I'm guessing you are into a religious belief system of some kind.


I get my data from research, reading, analyzing, intuition, experiences. Personally, my philosophy is that I do not create any of the knowledge, I only create the interpretations, which are uniquely mine. No, I do not have any "religious belief systems" I simply read a lot and share what is relevant from my knowledge.

As for "vibrational theories" this is more of a fact, then it is belief. Everything in the universe is a vibration. What may seem to be different phenomena, has all arisen from a super phenomena. In contemporary physics this is believed to be a super-force or super-strings.


Title: Are you part of the problem or solution?
Post by: data on April 22, 2005, 10:58:27
How does the discussion above apply to the discussion of solving the worlds problems, and is assigning values of "good" or bad" or "right" just arbitrary and relative.

It is a very sensitive affair to assign value judgments to actions and behavior, as many people consider morals and ethics to be relative, and further morals and ethics often echo the dogma of religion.

However, it would be wrong to say that we do not have personal and social morals or ethics or definitions of right or wrong. We do. This is what makes us intelligent. We can differentiate between two sets of  actions or behaviors. Some of our differentiations are socialized and some are innate to our species.

For Example, when someone slaps you for no reason. Many of us would react in anger or resentment, we would have no internal dialog, we would react by instinct. We will either fight or flee.  We would call this wrong, Yet, maybe in some hypothetical culture, being slapped is a greeting, so what was wrong, becomes right, because of a psycho-social construct.

Now, suppose instead of being slapped, you were stabbed with a sharp implement.  Again, it will trigger the fight or flee response. Now, again suppose this was a positive action in a hypothetical culture. No matter, how much your mind was conditioned,  your body will fight against it, it will tell you it doesn't like it and you will suffer pain. I don't like pain. I don't think you do either.

So therefore we have found something that is universally wrong. Something we all relate to: pain. This is a language that transcends being. It was shown that even animals and plants suffer pain. We know this.

We know deep down in our being, that if we wrong another, they will feel pain, as we would feel the same if they wronged us.

Stealing
Raping
Murdering

These are all the major wrongs of all religions. These are also social crimes. They're wrongs and crimes for a reason.  Yet, why is killing animals not a good reason "to be wrong" it's exactly the same thing. We are causing pain to animals. They are feeling pain. We are doing it, not for survival, but for sense gratification.

Perhaps deep down we know this too. Pure intellect is where we correctly differentiate between right and wrong. Maybe this is what karma is - our memories of all our actions and thoughts, and when we review these through pure intellect, we arrive at the same rights and wrongs.

Now, consider what is at hand in this topic. Apathy vs proaction. Is apathy right or wrong? Better put, is being indifferent, inactive, passive, right or wrong?

To answer this, I recall a real life illustrated example of human apathy in action, in my psychology textbook. It was shown a woman was stabbed by a man in broad day light amongst people. The woman screamed, yelled for help, nobody did anything. They just watched. In, fact nobody even called the police. This went on for 5-10 min and everyone just watched. The woman ran, the man ran after her, and continued stabbing her and then left. She died on the spot.

This woman's life could have been saved. Someone in this crowd could have easily have intervened or called for help. None of them did. Were any of these people accountable for what happened to the woman?

Yes, very accountable. They did nothing to help the woman. They did everything for the man by not helping the woman. They were part of the problem - not solution. When we hear about cases like these, we sometimes feel a disgust for people like this. It's only because we know it is wrong. Apathy is wrong.

So, when someone says that apathy is their perspective, and we should just agree to disagree, because it's all relative anyway. What they really are declaring is they are going to be a part of the problem and that is wrong as far as my being is concerned. So, the worlds problems are ours to solve. We should contribute in solving them. By doing even a small bit. Even if it as small as simply saying there is a problem.

However, being apathetic is only contributing towards our problems. Unless, you want to be accountable for our future, you should do something to help others and this world. It is not only noble. It is right. And if it is right for the world and for others. It is right for you.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Frank on April 22, 2005, 16:26:57
Data:

You were speaking of weeds relative to them being uprooted. If that's not you placing a value judgement then I don't know what is. With respect, I cannot have a discussion with a person who seemingly forgets what he says from one post to the next.

I hear all you say about "the astral" and such. You obviously subscribe to a number of traditional belief-systems in that regard, which, if I may respectfully point out, don't quite add-up when you look at the facts of the wider reality. "Astral Realms" is a belief construct that is acted out typically within Focus 2 of consciousness. There are no astral realms that exist as an independent place. As I say, the notion of astral-realms is a belief construct that people engage within a particular area of consciousness.

Your ideas about the observer existing separate from the observed are, erm, interesting, lol. I can see you are making the same basic mistake virtually everyone makes (including myself at one time, I freely admit) namely, that objective reality is something that exists apart from ourselves. Unfortunately, that is another one of those ideas that’s pretty much universally believed, but rather incorrect.

You mention about Bob Bruce’s experience regarding the “astral” but his forte, if you like, is primarily real-time zone, i.e. physical reality or Focus 1 of consciousness (as I term it in my Phasing Model of Consciousness). Bob Bruce openly admits to having leant on the traditional Eastern beliefs when it came to his interpretation of states of reality other than the real-time zone.

Just an idea:

Perhaps it might be better for you to pay more regard to actually experiencing rather than reading stuff on the Internet. Because usually everyone just parrots everyone else, and everyone puts their own little spin on it. And because very few people, by comparison, have actually experienced the wider reality in its fullness, not in the narrow interpretations that people commonly subscribe to, most people are left arguing over one belief construct or another. This is what I see happening here. In that situation, who is to say that any one set of beliefs is any more valid over another?

Many times, I see two or more people debating their different beliefs about the wider reality and each party to the debate believes they are correct. But, in fact, when I compare what they are saying to what actually exists, they are both wrong and often if there are several people, they are all wrong!

You see, this is what happens when you do not place hands-on experience as your absolute number 1 priority. Talking about people picking up grains of rice, for example, is very cute, it’s very quaint and it makes people go awww, just like they do when they see a little kitten or a new-born baby. But in the wider scheme of things, it doesn’t even figure... and it doesn’t make you right about the wider reality either! LOL.

Yours,
Frank

PS
How can “vibrational theories” be fact? That’s a contradiction in terms, surely. At first, I thought you’d made a typo, or something. But what you say just doesn’t add up.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Frank on April 22, 2005, 16:47:01
As this has now gone way off-topic I'm moving it to Chat.

Yours,
Frank


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Frank on April 22, 2005, 17:07:18
Jouni:

I appreciate your observations, but I'm not sure if I want to debate the point. I would argue that every individual actually does what's "right" and that "right and wrong" are mere value judgements that others try to impose on other individual's experiences.

I've had "right and wrong" types of debates on the forum in the past, as I find them quite enjoyable if they are on a topic that interests me. This thread has possibilities and I've been watching it build, but I'm not all that taken by it. I tend to adopt the position of "standing up for the underdog" as it's a pretty powerful debating standpoint. But Data has dug himself into that position and it appears to be holding (for now).

I've moved it to Chat to allow a bit more of a free-for-all and, who knows, I might carve a little niche for myself a some point. The 2012 issue has been done to death several times, so I'm not all that fussed about the thread being highjacked as the original topic ran its course. But no disrespect intended to the originator of the thread, Alexd.

Yours,
Frank


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Nostic on April 22, 2005, 19:09:25
It's very interesting to me how much attention this date gets. I mean, it has been done to death, and still the controversy persists- from the people who believe, the people who don't believe, and it seems everyone else in between. I'm extremely curious as to weather anything of any great significance actually happens. LOL, at this point though, wouldn't it be kind of disappointing for January 1, 2013 to come, and realize, wait a minute... nothing exciting happened. I mean, with all of this build-up?  :D


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Frank on April 22, 2005, 20:15:48
Hi:

Your response touches on a point I was making earlier, where people point out "changes" and, in a sense, "accuse" change of taking place. Next they use this "change" as evidence that the end of the world is nigh. But there has never been a time in history when change did not take place!

Global warming is the latest fad that is steadily gathering steam. But when we had global cooling, i.e. an ice-age, there was no Internet and no-one is around now to say, look, guys, ten-thousand years ago when I was born, half the planet was covered in ice a hundred foot thick. So what's the big deal over a bit of ice they call Greenland, or whatever.

Problem being, every generation thinks they invented everything. But people such as myself have heard all this before. Oh, but wait, they say... at which point I say, "No, stop there, don't tell me: you were about to say that this time is different, right?" And they think, how the heck did he know we were going to say that?

In a sense I hope the world does end in 2012. At least we won't have to hear any more of this ridiculous, end-of-the-world drivel.

But we all know the world will not end, and the doom and gloom protagonists are going to roll out the same tired, sad old excuses they've been rolling out for god knows how long. Yet another "date" will emerge, and I'll be saying the very same, and they'll say no, but wait... at which point I'll be gagging, resisting the urge to puke, saying stop there... you were about to say that this time is different, right?

Yours,
Frank


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Psan on April 23, 2005, 08:29:28
Even if nothing happens, we'd come to know why the hell timeline stops there...... (McKenna's)

Or somebody will find out a silly mistake in his calculations ?  And perhaps extend the timeline to 3013 or 4014 :lol:


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: data on April 23, 2005, 09:11:01
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were speaking of weeds relative to them being uprooted. If that's not you placing a value judgment then I don't know what is. With respect, I cannot have a discussion with a person who seemingly forgets what he says from one post to the next.


If I have weeds growing in my garden. I will uproot them. Most will. That does not mean they are categorically bad. It means that they are bad for my garden ;)

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Your ideas about the observer existing separate from the observed are, erm, interesting, lol. I can see you are making the same basic mistake virtually everyone makes (including myself at one time, I freely admit) namely, that objective reality is something that exists apart from ourselves. Unfortunately, that is another one of those ideas that’s pretty much universally believed, but rather incorrect.


It is not that I don't agree with you. I do. Reality is a paradox. It is quasi-objective and quasi-subjective. It exists outside in and inside out. This is not a new idea. Again, those Eastern systems you shun, simply because they are ancient, declare the same truism, that we the self is simply the microcosm of the objective universe. However, as much as this maybe true at a profound level of reality, it is not true for our objective physical. As I was saying to Ben K Bscosfriend's topic  reality is consists of multifarious realities, each separate and relative from the other. The physical is an objective reality. The astral is an objective reality. There is only one subjective reality. That is the non dual absolute.

I do exist separate from the observed. Otherwise how do I observe in the first place? If this is all a subjective reality. Then why do you share my subjective reality? Or are you just a figment of my imagination?

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I hear all you say about "the astral" and such. You obviously subscribe to a number of traditional belief-systems in that regard, which, if I may respectfully point out, don't quite add-up when you look at the facts of the wider reality. "Astral Realms" is a belief construct that is acted out typically within Focus 2 of consciousness. There are no astral realms that exist as an independent place. As I say, the notion of astral-realms is a belief construct that people engage within a particular area of consciousness.


I am not qualified to comment on whether you are right or wrong about what the astrals are like. I believe you are wrong. I don't know that you are wrong.  Heck, I don't even know for a fact yet whether there is an astral. When I am able to astrally project, and have experience and knowledge that incontrovertibly proves that the astral is indeed an objective reality, I will refute you. I can say however, the vast of evidence for the astrals, both ancient and modern, from a range of witnesses show that the astrals are indeed objective realities and places, where astral beings can interact with other astral beings and entire civilizations and cities exist.

If you think it is a subjective plane of existence. How can people have objective experiences? Now, I have insight into your beliefs I gleaned from reading some topics and reading your conversations,  it turns out when someone suggested the astrals were completely subjective, you laughed at them. I am quite confused as to what you believe in. Perhaps you would like to elaborate for me.

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You mention about Bob Bruce’s experience regarding the “astral” but his forte, if you like, is primarily real-time zone, i.e. physical reality or Focus 1 of consciousness (as I term it in my Phasing Model of Consciousness). Bob Bruce openly admits to having leant on the traditional Eastern beliefs when it came to his interpretation of states of reality other than the real-time zone.


Perhaps, there is something to the traditional Eastern beliefs. As so many seem to be learning from it and verfying it. Everything from Chakras, Kundalini, Meditation and of course the astrals etc. Including our very own Bruce. Have you ever considered this possibility, or is all about how you interpret it? Are you suggesting, by the way, that Bruce's experience were all his imagination showing him what he wanted to see?

Suppose I learn from your system. And then corroborate your system. Doesn't that just mean that I was influenced by your beliefs, and saw just that. Henceforth, you will never be able to prove your system. As it is completely subjective. However, it is easier to prove Bruce's system, by having an objective experience, and to test this, by making two astral projectors meet at the same location in the astral. I believe this has already been done and I have personally read many accounts of this. Unless, you are claiming they imagined each others imaginings ;)

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Perhaps it might be better for you to pay more regard to actually experiencing rather than reading stuff on the Internet. Because usually everyone just parrots everyone else, and everyone puts their own little spin on it. And because very few people, by comparison, have actually experienced the wider reality in its fullness, not in the narrow interpretations that people commonly subscribe to, most people are left arguing over one belief construct or another. This is what I see happening here. In that situation, who is to say that any one set of beliefs is any more valid over another?


No offense, but you're from the  internet as well, telling me everything I have read from everyone else, on the internet, in books, in ancient texts, is incorrect? Why should I believe you, or give your statements more value than the yogis, Bruce and others. Why are you right and everyone from ancient to modern is wrong? Surely, you should have considered the possibility, that it is more likely you are wrong, given the fact of how many are saying otherwise. Do you even test your beliefs. Or do you simply have to just say it/think it?

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Many times, I see two or more people debating their different beliefs about the wider reality and each party to the debate believes they are correct. But, in fact, when I compare what they are saying to what actually exists, they are both wrong and often if there are several people, they are all wrong!


Umm, you say "you see two or more people debating their beliefs about the wider reality and each party to the debate believes they are correct" and then you say "But in fact, when I compare what they are saying to what actually exists, they are both wrong and often if there are several people, they are all wrong"

Why is it that their statements are beliefs. And your's are facts?

Frank, it almost sounds like you are saying "Im right, everyone else is wrong" and if you are, I hope you can substantiate that for your own sake.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: data on April 23, 2005, 09:29:58
Quote
Global warming is the latest fad that is steadily gathering steam. But when we had global cooling, i.e. an ice-age


Global warming is global cooling. It is definitely not a fad and there is evidence to show that the green house effect and CO2 emissions have accelerated the rate at which the ice caps melt. In fact, I believe, it was reported recently how sea levels are rising and how there has been an increase in melting of ice caps. Having said that, most scientists agree that it could be still hundreds of years before they do melt. While, there are some, who caution against a sooner ice age or a temporary ice age.

The movie "Day After Tomorrow" in which all kind of weather anomalies occurred before the disasters, is actually based on a book by Art Bell(and another)  and not to alarm, but all those precursor weather anomalies have taken place and are still taking place today.

Now as to my own beliefs on 2012. I personally don't believe the world is going to the end. However, I do think before 2012, there will definitely be some unfortunate global events. I think it is reasonable to expect the unfortunate, considering the state of the world today. It may culminate in 2012. I am not holding my breath on this date though.

Please read this for further information:

Quote
Published on Friday, January 30, 2004 by CommonDreams.org  
How Global Warming May Cause the Next Ice Age...  
by Thom Hartmann
 
While global warming is being officially ignored by the political arm of the Bush administration, and Al Gore's recent conference on the topic during one of the coldest days of recent years provided joke fodder for conservative talk show hosts, the citizens of Europe and the Pentagon are taking a new look at the greatest danger such climate change could produce for the northern hemisphere - a sudden shift into a new ice age. What they're finding is not at all comforting.

In quick summary, if enough cold, fresh water coming from the melting polar ice caps and the melting glaciers of Greenland flows into the northern Atlantic, it will shut down the Gulf Stream, which keeps Europe and northeastern North America warm. The worst-case scenario would be a full-blown return of the last ice age - in a period as short as 2 to 3 years from its onset - and the mid-case scenario would be a period like the "little ice age" of a few centuries ago that disrupted worldwide weather patterns leading to extremely harsh winters, droughts, worldwide desertification, crop failures, and wars around the world.

Here's how it works.

If you look at a globe, you'll see that the latitude of much of Europe and Scandinavia is the same as that of Alaska and permafrost-locked parts of northern Canada and central Siberia. Yet Europe has a climate more similar to that of the United States than northern Canada or Siberia. Why?

It turns out that our warmth is the result of ocean currents that bring warm surface water up from the equator into northern regions that would otherwise be so cold that even in summer they'd be covered with ice. The current of greatest concern is often referred to as "The Great Conveyor Belt," which includes what we call the Gulf Stream.

The Great Conveyor Belt, while shaped by the Coriolis effect of the Earth's rotation, is mostly driven by the greater force created by differences in water temperatures and salinity. The North Atlantic Ocean is saltier and colder than the Pacific, the result of it being so much smaller and locked into place by the Northern and Southern American Hemispheres on the west and Europe and Africa on the east.

As a result, the warm water of the Great Conveyor Belt evaporates out of the North Atlantic leaving behind saltier waters, and the cold continental winds off the northern parts of North America cool the waters. Salty, cool waters settle to the bottom of the sea, most at a point a few hundred kilometers south of the southern tip of Greenland, producing a whirlpool of falling water that's 5 to 10 miles across. While the whirlpool rarely breaks the surface, during certain times of year it does produce an indentation and current in the ocean that can tilt ships and be seen from space (and may be what we see on the maps of ancient mariners).

This falling column of cold, salt-laden water pours itself to the bottom of the Atlantic, where it forms an undersea river forty times larger than all the rivers on land combined, flowing south down to and around the southern tip of Africa, where it finally reaches the Pacific. Amazingly, the water is so deep and so dense (because of its cold and salinity) that it often doesn't surface in the Pacific for as much as a thousand years after it first sank in the North Atlantic off the coast of Greenland.

The out-flowing undersea river of cold, salty water makes the level of the Atlantic slightly lower than that of the Pacific, drawing in a strong surface current of warm, fresher water from the Pacific to replace the outflow of the undersea river. This warmer, fresher water slides up through the South Atlantic, loops around North America where it's known as the Gulf Stream, and ends up off the coast of Europe. By the time it arrives near Greenland, it's cooled off and evaporated enough water to become cold and salty and sink to the ocean floor, providing a continuous feed for that deep-sea river flowing to the Pacific.

These two flows - warm, fresher water in from the Pacific, which then grows salty and cools and sinks to form an exiting deep sea river - are known as the Great Conveyor Belt.

Amazingly, the Great Conveyor Belt is only thing between comfortable summers and a permanent ice age for Europe and the eastern coast of North America.

Much of this science was unknown as recently as twenty years ago. Then an international group of scientists went to Greenland and used newly developed drilling and sensing equipment to drill into some of the world's most ancient accessible glaciers. Their instruments were so sensitive that when they analyzed the ice core samples they brought up, they were able to look at individual years of snow. The results were shocking.

Prior to the last decades, it was thought that the periods between glaciations and warmer times in North America, Europe, and North Asia were gradual. We knew from the fossil record that the Great Ice Age period began a few million years ago, and during those years there were times where for hundreds or thousands of years North America, Europe, and Siberia were covered with thick sheets of ice year-round. In between these icy times, there were periods when the glaciers thawed, bare land was exposed, forests grew, and land animals (including early humans) moved into these northern regions.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Frank on April 24, 2005, 03:04:21
Ha ha ha, "The Movie" everyone tends to quote the movie.

Err, sorry to burst your dream bubble but the movie is a work of fiction!

Oh know, don't tell me, "If it weren't that real then we wouldn't have a movie about it."

This is amazing.

When someone uses a work of total fiction as evidence for the existance of what they say is a factual phenomenon... and people wonder why scientists take the tinkle out of us.

If we are to gain any credibility at all in the scientific world (which I hope) we are going to have to do better.

Yours,
Frank


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Frank on April 24, 2005, 03:12:13
Oh, and you say that before 2012 there will be some "unfortunate" global events.

Ha ha, give me a 5 year time period in the history of our world when there has not been some "unfortunate" global events. That's just the fudge concept of all time. It's ridiculous.

So we are then to denounce the advent of the "end of the word" in 2012 on the basis that "unfortunate" events have happened in the meantime?

That's the biggest piece of fudge yet!

Yours,
Frank


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: data on April 24, 2005, 08:22:10
Frank, you would be wise to actually research on the movie, before you dismiss. In fact you be wise to research on everything you dismiss. As you are often wrong. It's not very good for credibility.

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The movie "Day After Tomorrow" in which all kind of weather anomalies occurred before the disasters, is actually based on a book by Art Bell(and another) and not to alarm, but all those precursor weather anomalies have taken place and are still taking place today.


I told you it was based on a book and precursor events are based on real events discussed in the book:

Read: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743470656/qid=1114326194/sr=2-3/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_3/103-9905725-2148625

Now, the movie is sensationalistic, as you would expect from any Hollywood commercial movie, and it actually quite ridiculous. However, the realities it portrays of global climate changes is a very possible phenomena.

There are many scientists, geologists and seismologists that are warning of an impending climate disaster. Again, as you pointed out earlier, there have been ice ages in the past. There are some scientists who now believe sudden ice ages can occur.

Again, I said earlier, don't be alarmed, but at least be cautious. Ignorance is only bliss till reality catches up. From my research into climate and general earth changes, I have seen some evidence to suggest there are changes taking place.

I have no bubble, Frank. I am very open minded to every possibility.  In my humble opinion, that is what keeps you aware.

Now, as to "global unfortunate events" that is a vague for sure. However, I am not making any predictions or prophecies, so I have liberty to be vague. What I am insinuating by this is that it is going to get a lot worse than it is today and it will be unprecedented(at least in our modern times) This could be everything from global wars, pandemic outbreaks, climate changes, earthquakes, terrorism, civil wars. This has nothing to do with the 2012 date by the way. I told you earlier. As far as I am concerned that is just a date.

There is a problem in the world today, a very deep seated one, that threatens global stability, and could quite literally end the world as we know it for the worse. There are many who are aware of this. And I was saying, apathy, and in your case, ignorance, is not going to make the problems go away.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: no_leaf_clover on April 24, 2005, 09:41:44
Frank,

Just out of curiousity, have you ever come across anything regarding future US political situations or major upcoming wars or civil problems while phasing?


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: patapouf on April 24, 2005, 15:08:01
In relation with this ''end of the world'' approach, Frank is right on the subject concerning that we can observe on earth, throughout an extended period of time,  many global events and there will probably be more in the future of course. Mountains do not grow like trees! Imagine how it must shake the earth when the Himalayas were formed, probably terrible. But this do not mean in any sense that it will cause the end of the world because life in general (and us humans) have already been through all of this before in the past and the world did not end as we can see. You can name it: supervolcanoes, meteorites causing gigantic tidal waves, huge earthquakes, etc. we are still here now. As for now, the only observable threat might be the Yellowstone park supervolcano (but hey, it may erupt today but in a thousand year also); but also it won't cause the ''end of the world'' if it explodes now. This ''end of the world'' thing is more like a metaphor, maybe,  meaning the end of this ''modern world'' for the restructuration toward a better one.... Presently, the biggest threat to our own planet is probably ''us humans''!

Take care,


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: karnautrahl on April 24, 2005, 17:44:11
Why do people have to keep generating these special dates all the time? Yes it's possible to find a dozen justifications for each date picked-and any other date if one really wanted to. So why does humanity bother? I don't understand the mentality. Is it just the hope of an end/being saved or something? Then the concept gets defended tooth and nail when challenged..sounds like religion almost to me..

Problems, issues, things to deal with are all real. Prophetic dates, planetory shifts, magnetic shifts having special meaning and all that junk doesn't seem to be real to me-just manmade fantasy and hyperbole-often tacked onto some thread of reality, like the earth does have polarity shifts every so often and things.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: data on April 24, 2005, 17:52:36
Magnetic pole shifts are actually real Karnautrahl. As for physical pole shifts, the jury is still out on that one. However, the resent Sumatra Earthquake did cause a very slight distortion in the Earth's axis, causing it to wobble. So, I would imagine, if there was a sudden upsurge in tectonic activity, a physical pole shift could become a reality.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: karnautrahl on April 24, 2005, 21:38:27
Data, I'm quite aware magnetic shifts have happened in the past, and the likelyhood is that they will continue to happen. After Earth has a molten core that contains a lot of iron, so it's a spinning liquid magnet. That factual data has never been in much doubt in my mind.

It's the man made belief nonsense I have no sympathy with. 2012+magnetic shift (has science really tied down the date of the next definite pole shift like that?)=some kinda mystical ooba jooba super shift in mankinds state of consciousness. I've never been a fan of the over the top new age style mystic hopeful rescue stuff to be honest.  

Every so often various individuals churn out another book containing the keys to the future of mankind. Some seem to be regurgitations of older stuff, others reiturate stuff from each other, still others occasionally write something almost new. So yes, I get super cynical with this side of things.

Also whilst I'm on this subject, how come when various folks are challenged on the reality of this their arguement alters? I've heard versions that require mankind to dimensionally shift for a few weeks, end up in other planes/planets/rescued etc, to really subtle stuff saying well actually most folks won't really sense it but some special sensitive people will. In between are variations on shifts of consciousness and other stuff that can be held onto quite tightly indeed by the determined believer and dismissed by everyone else as they won't notice it.  

In other words, it feels unreal, it feels silly, and well if something smells, looks, tastes, and sounds like a donkey...you get the picture.

We are all free to believe what we like-as long as our belief doesn't lead us into harming other people in pursuit of that belief. However I prefer experience and knowing wherever possible. So on subjects I haven't experienced I generally sit on fences really. In this prophecy business however, I sit firmly on the skeptical cynical side. I'd rather get egg on my face from that than hopelessly believe some of the prophecy stuff and have those hopes squashed or diluted into nothing in some kinda rationalisation.

;-) Didn't intend to write this much, but all this wanted to out.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: data on April 24, 2005, 21:52:52
I do understand what you mean. There are many doomsday sayers, and I know it can frustrate, even more frustrating can be those planet x or ascension to the 5th dimension folk, or the return of Atlantis. These are quite simply sheeps jumping on the bandwagon.

However, unfortunately for people like myself who do share forbearing warnings of the future, we also get thrown in the same bandwagon, when ours is based on rational analysis of current events. I do keep myself aware of the prophecies, but I take them all with a grain of salt.

What I do think that is very pertinent right now, is dealing with the worlds current problems, not because prophecy foretells gloom and doom, but because if nothing is done about the worlds problem, they will get worse and gloom and doom could be some of the consequences. Hence, I advise against apathy. I advise caution and proaction.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: karnautrahl on April 25, 2005, 06:07:50
Data, I seperate the commensense warnings of environmental crises that appear quite likely with current patterns of resource usage etc from prophecy. :-). Whilst mostly I feel there is very little actively I personally can do now to avert those, I am aware their possibility is very real. I just have no truck with the "mystical" stuff that is about on this subject.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Willis on April 27, 2005, 06:35:52
The environmental crisis occuring now is an event that is so big it has the ability to change the way humanity looks at the natural world.  Does this mean that the end of the world is coming?  Of course not.  But it could mean the end of the way we percieve the world and our role in the stewardship of it.

Anybody who thinks that global warming and other environmental problems are "the latest fads" are unforturnately showing their lack of knowledge in the subject.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: data on April 27, 2005, 09:09:03
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Anybody who thinks that global warming and other environmental problems are "the latest fads" are unfortunately showing their lack of knowledge in the subject.


Yes,  I concur. However, let us not overlook the political crisis, which is a more immediate concern today. I believe before an ice age gets us, we are likely to suffer a world war, civil unrest /wars and peak oil.

Just look at what is happening right now between North Korea and US US and Iran, China and Taiwan. Sooner or later, one of these is going to go off, and when it does, it will be disastrous.


Title: Afterthought: 2012
Post by: Willis on April 27, 2005, 14:15:12
Hi data.  The political crisis is only more immediate than the environmental crisis in that it is not dealing with the environmental crisis.

Unfortunately, we have had civil unrest since the dawn of civilization, and to assume that there will be a day when we are not likely to "suffer a world war, civil unrest/wars and peak energy conflicts" is having a little too much blind faith in divine intervention, in my opinion.

Global warming is a future environmental issue that needs to dealt with today.  However, there is another environmental issue that is actually occurring today that, if not dealt with, will promote these violent conflicts in struggling nations, and that is the rapid depletion of our living resources.

Water shortages, energy demands/shortages, pollution and health, pandemic disease, depletion of natural resources, over-population and famine, etc.  These are all issues with strong ties to an unhealthy, unmanaged environmental agenda.  These are problems that are beginning to spiral out of control, especially with the rapid developments taking place in China and Asia.  On a small scale, they are locally devastating.  But exponential population growth and over consumption is bringing the entire world to a point of crisis.

I respectfully disagree with your statement that the political crisis is the more immediate concern today.  There is nothing, nothing more pressing than the permanent damage we are doing to the world.  We are quickly snuffing out the broad diversity of life on this planet.