The Astral Pulse

Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences => Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! => Topic started by: Token on April 15, 2006, 20:49:46

Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: Token on April 15, 2006, 20:49:46
Hello everyone.  I've been lurking for a few months and thought I'd make myself visible.  I used to post in the alt.out-of-body NG many years ago for a long time (around the time of Gunnar-of-the-Glacier for any of you that might have been there at that time).  I'm an experienced astral traveler, and I'll go into more of that later when I have more time, but right now, I was reading some posts and an idea struck me that I wanted to present.  

Before I preset the idea, I have to first preset what I believe or it won't make sense.  I believe in guided evolution, i.e.  Darwinian evolution that is guided by the Universal Consciousness.  Normally this would be called God, but my belief differs in that I think evolution and the awareness of the UC were simultaneous events, sort of a tit for tat kind of thing where the more conscious the universe became the more reality would manifest itself in order to develop this consciousness.  I guess this is a roundabout way of saying, "I can't see if I don't have an eye, and I can't have an eye if I haven't a clue what sight is."

Like many here, I sometimes think that the astral is a wide open place without bounds, and well, I still believe that, but something struck me today and that is the reason for this post.  

It occurred to me that reality might very well be the ideal and perfect tool for a universal consciousness to manifest itself fully, not partially, but fully and may be an end in itself.  One characteristic of reality that is not present in any other state (such as the astral plane) is that it is bound (mostly by the laws of physics) and is universal in nature.  That is to say it is experienced pretty much the same way for everyone.  Before reality these things did not exist, and again on the astral plane these things become boundless.

I was just reading another thread where someone described 3 men in red uniforms and something like a carnival going on just outside her window.  I've been to many carnivals like this so it caught my attention.  One thing about these carnivals or in fact about anything that goes on in the astral is that things change around you all the time, people come and go, places come and go, scenes change constantly and so on and this is what gives the astral traveler the sense that the astral plane is so boundless in such a magnificiently spiritual way.  And that's when it hit me.

If the astral is defined by whims and fancies of the astral traveler, then that holds true for every astral traveler that might be tooling around in the same realm as you.  This would make the astral environment morph as quickly as the whims of every traveler that happens to be there.  On the surface it looks like it's the astral realm that is dynamic and not the astral travelers, but I think it may be quite the opposite.  It might just be that the very fact that the astral traveler, which you could say is pure consciousness and not connected to reality as we know it in any way is the very reason that the astral realm is as dynamic and boundless as it is.

I'm not sure if I'm making my point, so let me put this another way.  One of the things that makes reality so real is that reality is something that binds the utter boundlessness of the consciousness and it is this binding that allows a reality to become the great thing that it is.  If the consciousness can't be bound, then reality cannot take place, instead it manifests more like the astral that we are familiar with.  Since evolution is the tool that the universal consciousness used to manifest itself into something it could understand, something that could allow self reflection, I think it's important to keep that in mind when comparing the value of reality to the value of the astral and in trying to determine which one is greater.  Sometimes this is hard to do because "the grass is always greener on the other side" and we all strive so hard to get to the astral and savor it when we do.  We love to fly and we love to smell the beautiful scent of the exotic flowers and to meet so many interesting fellow astral travelers, but maybe reality is the REAL holy grail.

Just one more thing.  Since I'm putting so much value on reality here it becomes a little scary because of the "what happens when I die" thing.  I don't have a problem with that because I think that reality will always be with us, even after we die, and the astral may very well not be the place we go too permanently, but rather always remains the playground of the mind for all eternity.  There, feel better?   :grin:

Ken ("The Original Ken" on alt.out-of-body)
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: jub jub on April 15, 2006, 21:03:35
Hi Ken,

That's a lot to digest, and it's going to take me a minute. lol

I'll tell you how I look at it. The reason we are here in the physical is so our consciousness can construct our reality in the astral, or spiritual realm. We take with us when we die (and project) a recording of everything that we have ever experienced here. Otherwise, we would have to imagine everything and the spiritual realm would be nothing but gobbledygook!

I consider the spiritual realm a type of holograph that is made up of all the experiences of every living creature since the dawn of time. We have unlimited access to this information in the astral, the only problem is we don't yet have the full ability to control what we want to see. Only the souls that pass are privy to this ability.

Of course, this is all conjecture and theory on my part but I believe I have taped into the spiritual realm, well enough to get a glimpse of the picture.

IMHO.
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: Token on April 15, 2006, 21:19:00
Quote from: jub jubI'll tell you how I look at it. The reason we are here in the physical is so our consciousness can construct our reality in the astral, or spiritual realm. We take with us when we die (and project) a recording of everything that we have ever experienced here. Otherwise, we would have to imagine everything and the spiritual realm would be nothing but gobbledygook!

That's interesting you say that, because I agree with you.  If this were not the case then pre-reality consciousness and post-reality consciousness would be the same, like you said, gobbledygook.  Almost as if reality is the training we need to use our "boundless" mind to do useful things such as the things we create in the astral.

Quote from: jub jub
I consider the spiritual realm a type of holograph that is made up of all the experiences of every living creature since the dawn of time. We have unlimited access to this information in the astral, the only problem is we don't yet have the full ability to control what we want to see. Only the souls that pass are privy to this ability.

Of course, this is all conjecture and theory on my part but I believe I have taped into the spiritual realm, well enough to get a glimpse of the picture.

IMHO.

It's a good theory.  It's like an astral dog couldn't exist unless a real dog existed as the "template" for an astral dog.  That's probably why the astral plane reflects reality so closely.  

First there was the UC without a clue and nothing to do
Then reality came about because of it, and the UC learned from it
Then became free to roam the "zone", ah but this time not alone.

Ken
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: jub jub on April 15, 2006, 23:20:38
QuoteIf the astral is defined by whims and fancies of the astral traveler, then that holds true for every astral traveler that might be tooling around in the same realm as you. This would make the astral environment morph as quickly as the whims of every traveler that happens to be there. On the surface it looks like it's the astral realm that is dynamic and not the astral travelers, but I think it may be quite the opposite. It might just be that the very fact that the astral traveler, which you could say is pure consciousness and not connected to reality as we know it in any way is the very reason that the astral realm is as dynamic and boundless as it is.

So basically, who ever has the greater concentration or focus at the moment is the "Lord of the realm".  We see his/her consciousness.

I buy that. Since we are nothing more than brief travelers through the astral, we get a glimpse of everyone's thought patterns at any given moment. This probably explains why we switch from scene to scene while in the zone.
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: Token on April 16, 2006, 00:05:29
Quote from: jub jub
QuoteIf the astral is defined by whims and fancies of the astral traveler, then that holds true for every astral traveler that might be tooling around in the same realm as you. This would make the astral environment morph as quickly as the whims of every traveler that happens to be there. On the surface it looks like it's the astral realm that is dynamic and not the astral travelers, but I think it may be quite the opposite. It might just be that the very fact that the astral traveler, which you could say is pure consciousness and not connected to reality as we know it in any way is the very reason that the astral realm is as dynamic and boundless as it is.

So basically, who ever has the greater concentration or focus at the moment is the "Lord of the realm".  We see his/her consciousness.

I buy that. Since we are nothing more than brief travelers through the astral, we get a glimpse of everyone's thought patterns at any given moment. This probably explains why we switch from scene to scene while in the zone.

Yes, but also keep in mind that it might be possible our (the UC) existence in waking reality not only molds waking reality, but simultaneously molds the astral plane as well.  So if there's an earthquake on the astral, in might just be someone sneezing in waking reality.  :lol:

Ken
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: Token on April 16, 2006, 02:35:46
Quote from: Major TomHi Ken,

Good to see you out here. Don't you remember you, but I never was highly active there.

Do remember Janice, and yes, Gunner too I think, if he was the one who died in a glacier.

Hope to hear more from you, and your experiences.

Post a couple of good OBE stories in the experiences section.

Yes, Gunnar was the one that died in a glacier.  It was a little over 4 years ago and I was thinking it might be nice to have a celebration of friends for the 5 year anniversary.  It just broke my heart to pieces when he died.  I considered him a really close friend even though I never met him in person.  He was a very experienced astral traveler and I learned a lot from him.  

I still keep in touch with Janice every now and then.  You can buy her book on conscious dreaming on Amazon BTW.

I'll definitely pull out some of my old adventures and post them.
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: catmeow on April 16, 2006, 11:10:29
Welcome Token and nice post.

Putting the Astral aside for a moment and concentrating on the physical universe alone, quantum physics teaches us that there is no such thing as physical reality.  Let me try to explain, using the old "watch metaphor".

Let's say you've never seen a watch before and are given one as a present.  Now there are things you can observe aout the watch, how it ticks, how the second hand moves and how the other hands move in precise relation to the second hand.  Maybe you have to wind it up to keep it moving.  Now unless you can open up the watch and look inside you can only make guesses about the internal mechanism.  If the watch is permanently sealed, you can never know the true "reality" of what is inside the watch.  However, you can certainly still use the watch because it behaves in a reliable and predictable way.

Quantum mechanics teaches us that the universe of subatomic particles is exactly like a permanently sealed watch mechanism.  We can never know exactly what the universe is made up of but we can make predictions about how it will generally behave. I say generally, because we really can't make any assumptions about individual details regarding the movement inside the watch.  All we can say is that as a whole, the watch behaves in a certain way.  (This was called the Copenhagen Interpretaion of Shrodingers Wave Function).

To make things even more mysterious, the watch won't actually behave at all unless it is observed.  Observing a subatomic event causes it to behave in one way or another, out of an infinite number of possibilities (known as the "collapse" of the Wave Function).

Now the watch mechanism is the equivalent of "external reality".  The Copenhagen Interpretation says that we can never know anything about "external reality".  All that matters is that our experience of this "external reality" is predictable in some way.  But the "external reality" itself is unknowable, needn't be real and quite frankly, completely irrelevant.  A number of physicists are a bit unhappy with this idea (Einstein was one of them).  But that's how it seems to be.

The old scientific ideas of a world consisting of atoms with electrons, orbiting in well defined orbits has been proven to be completely inadequate.  All we know is that this model is useful, in some ways, although it isn't actually the "real picture".  The real picture is that electrons don't occupy specific orbits, they occupy all possible orbits at once, and only when we observe them does one particualr orbit materialise.  Even this isn't the real picture, things are much more complex than this.  The deeper we dig, the more we find that there is no "real picture" which we can be sure about.  But it doesn't matter because overall, we can predict how things will happen.

So, today many physicists generally agree that there is no actual independent "external reality".  All that there is, is an interaction between consciousness (us) and a set of rules which govern the overall results of this interaction.  Any actual "external reality" can't be known and is irrelevant.  In many ways we actually create our own reality, because it is only by observing things that they are actually brought into existence (the "collapse" of the Wave Function).

Before I get flamed, the Copenhagen Interpretation is only one of seven (I think) interpretations of quantum mechanics.  Other interpretations involve for instance infinite numbers of universes ("Many Worlds") etc which overcome the problem of not being able to unpick the watch mechanism.

But personally, I kind of think that there is no external reality, there is only a collective consciousness, and we basically create our own universe. This is true of the Physical universe as it is of the Astral, but it's just that in the Astral it's rather more obvious...!
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: Token on April 16, 2006, 14:56:25
Quote from: Major TomPerhaps it's an idea you invite some others here of that time you still know. We can always use experienced projectors on these boards to help many others striving for similar experiences, including charming sceptics like Janice.

Looking forward to reading your posts.

I'll drop Janice a note and she can do the invitations if she wants as I can't seem to directly access the newsgroup anymore since I changed servers.  Yes, Janice is charming isn't she  :grin:
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: Token on April 16, 2006, 15:30:27
Hi catmeow.  Are you a physicist by trade?  I study physics as a hobby so I'm familiar with everything you are saying.  The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and so on.  

With all of this in mind what is your take on the difference between waking reality and the astral plane?  It seems that in waking reality statistics, which as you said rule the events that occur on an everyday basis seem to form a stable bell curve the same for everyone.  In other words, the chances that the moon will be where we expect it to be is statistically high, not just for me, but for everyone around me who is also in this waking reality and these statistics remain unchanging.  This however may not be the case on the astral realm.  It might be, as is the case when 2 astral travelers are just chatting and are experiencing the same situation like a carnival or something, but even so a single individual astral traveler, like myself,  could be in one environment one moment (statistically high event) and in the next moment it all disappears and becomes something else, meaning the probability suddenly dropped from very very high (existing) to very very low (not existing).  Waking reality does not suffer from this.  Why?
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: catmeow on April 16, 2006, 19:53:48
Hi Token

I have an engineering background, but physics, is just a hobby for me as it is for you.  It just so happens that modern particle physics is now virtually indistinguishable from philosophy, and that makes it very interesting to me.  It seems that the ancient teachings of Hinduism and Buddhism are actually quite close to modern physics, which is kind of interesting....!

But going back to your question, in the physical world, the use of probabilities to describe behaviours really applies only at the microscopic (sub-atomic) level, meaning that we can't be sure exactly what just a single electron will do, although when observing a whole bunch of electrons we can be pretty much sure what the combined behaviour will be, based on the probability distribution, the bell curve as you say.  At macroscopic levels however (eg moon size) we can be pretty certain where the moon is going to be.  Having said that, I do think there is still a finite possibility that the moon could just wink out of existence and reappear somewhere else, although the probability of this is extremely tiny.

So in the physical world quantum behaviours only really occur at the microscopic level.  At the macroscopic (moon size) level they don't really happen.  It's conceivable however that in the Astral world, quantum behaviours occur at both the microscopic and macroscopic levels.  So strange behaviours can suddenly happen at any time.  But this is obviously pure conjecture!

I actually believe, as I said, that we create our own reality, and this is true of both the Physical and Astral worlds.  In the physical world however, we have an amazingly ingenious set of rules (quantum mechanics) which allows us to both create our own reality and also to benefit from a world with a high degree of stability at the macroscopic level.  Perhaps this is part of some grand design?  In the Astral world however, the rules allow us once again to create our own reality, but in this case, at the macroscopic level, things are not at all stable!  Once again there may be a grand design behind this.  :wink:
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: jub jub on April 16, 2006, 21:04:45
catmeow,

Have you read "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot? If you haven't, may I suggest it. It basically follows the same premise as what you've stated. A very excellent read and it really makes you think!
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: catmeow on April 16, 2006, 22:23:08
jub jub

Yes I have a copy.  I do think it's an excellent book, although I "stalled" about a third of the way through.  I read all of the theory chapters and then skipped through the rest of the book which kind of gives examples of how lucid dreams, teleptahy etc are consistent with teh holographic metaphor.  It is a very good book, and as you say very thought provoking.

In particular I've always personally felt very strongly that memory doesn't reside in the physical brain.  I just don't see it myself - I mean every single tiny detail we've ever seen is stored away somewhere and can be retrieved (by hypnosis), yet no one has ever identified any single location in the brain where this (staggeringly massive amount of) info is or could possibly be stored.  Talbot believes this info could be stored non-locally in holographic form and this makes a lot of sense to me.

Thanks for reminding me about the book, I must finish it!
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: Token on April 17, 2006, 02:12:04
Funny, my profession is engineering, I study physics as a hobby and I own a copy of "the holographic universe".  Hmmmm.....

meow, I agree that physics and philosophy have truly become integrated.  This is good and bad.  I would have liked to have been Newton where my discoveries were solid, irrefutable, logical, and definitely provable, but I don't think physics will ever be like that again.  The Pandora's box has been opened and all realistic physicists realize that today's working theory is good only for today.  Tomorrow brings another different but equally valid theory.  Honestly, no one knows whats going on anymore.  The good side of this is that we are at an age where we recognize that things are just not as they seem and that is the reason for all the confusion.  Eventually the confusion will subside and a logical framework will appear and then the real truth of reality will appear.  

Until then I think it would be good to continue to take data from astral travels and to try and compare notes the best we can.  For example, I was just reading a post where someone mentioned passing through a brick wall and seeing all the tiny grains of the cement while she was passing through.  I had a very similar experience where I passed through a sheet rock wall and I could also see the spider like web of plaster and air gaps.  This is more than a coincidence.  This is also more than imagination.  There is no way I would pay attention to such a thing as the details of the inside of a wall if I were just flitting around in a dream.  This was a very real and noticeable observation while it was happening and the fact that someone else also observed the same thing is definitely noteworthy.   Clues like these will eventually tell us more about the astral realm and the OBE experience in general and I for one am paying attention! :peace:
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: catmeow on April 17, 2006, 08:31:17
Token

I also work in IT.  I think there is something in the psyche of modern engineers, IT and scientific type people which makes us open to ideas such as astral travel.  I know that the people I work with are generally sympathetic to these ideas.  I have talked about these things at work and some of the most straight-laced people have come "out of the closet" with their own beliefs and experiences.  It's very encouraging, because I think we're actually beginning to see a new, forward-thinking, out-of-the-box scientific culture which is ready to embrace and investigate these ideas.  A few years ago these individuals would have kept well stumm!
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: catmeow on April 17, 2006, 08:40:42
Token

A bit more on your comments about archetypal atral experiences.  Add also the experience of 360 degree vision and point-consciousness.  These are mentioned over and over by OBE'ers, many of whom never read a book on the subject, and yet there is no parallel in the physical world.  Psychologists would have us believe that we create a self body-image and then use this to wander round a dream-scape, yet I have not seen any psychologist explain why we should also create point-consciousness or 360 deg vision, when there is no physical parallel?  Where do these archetypes come from?
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: Token on April 17, 2006, 10:07:06
Yes indeed!  There are others as well, such as a door being on the wrong wall in your bedroom during an OBE or a building outside your bedroom window that is not there in real life.  Why is it that we can get almost all the details of a bedroom correct and yet have something like a door on the wrong wall.  I know where my doors are!!!  Yet this is a very common experience during OBE for everyone.  Another is the magnetic wind.  It's the same for everyone.  If I even mention that phrase anyone with any OB experience will know immediately what I'm talking about and yet there is no equivalent in the real world.
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: mactombs on April 17, 2006, 14:33:13
Hi, Token. I'm excited to see topics like this coming up and I hope you contribute a lot.

I think the astral shares a lot in common with the dream state. I don't know nearly as much about OBEs as I do dreams, but my feeling is that the fluid nature of the astral depends on how internally focused your awareness is. Total withdrawal into your psyche is a dream. The astral that the OBEr experiences is probably like a more shared dream state, or shared consciousness. I believe the astral is very psychological.

For instance, a recent OBE I had where I woke in my room and got out of bed. In previous OBEs, I had been unable to go through the door, and so this time I was determined to do so. As soon as I opened the door, my parents rushed in, trying to prevent me from leaving. I ran out of the room, but the rest of the house no longer had doors or windows. This has a strong psychological meaning to me - it parallels the mental boundaries put on me by my parents and carried over into my adult life. It's abstract, not literal.
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: greatoutdoors on April 17, 2006, 14:56:32
What a neat thread! I am only too glad to add my two-cents!  :wink:

It is undeniable that many of our astral experiences are similar. This could mean a couple of things. Perhaps we are experiencing a valid alternative reality (the astral). Or, maybe the human brain is wired in such a way that when particular synapses are "tweaked," then a particular response is invoked. Or it could be both of these.

Token, you seem to be saying there are things in the astral with no correlation in physical (RTZ) reality. I don't know, but it is interesting.  My belief is that we cannot imagine what we have not experienced. If that is true, then everything in the astral must be a reflection of some physical reality. When I consider your statement I wonder about the chicken and the egg.  Could it be that our physical reality is a reflection of our astral world? Or is it the other way around?  :confused:

In my lucid dreams I have been in the form of a bird several times. I can tell you exactly what it feels like to be that bird. In my "real" memory, I have never been a bird. I have assumed that this astral experience was a reflection of another life, if reincarnation is true. Could that memory have been born in the astral and just carried back to the physical with me?

It pleases me to see how much the hard-core physicists have been turned on their ears! And with each new discovery of ever smaller particles, the confusion grows -- lovely!  :smile:

As to quantum physics, I won't begin to pretend I have any answers. But one theory is pretty interesting. It is thought now that all physical matter is about 90% empty space, filled only with electrically charged particles whirling in orbits around larger bodies. Thus, it is possible, given sufficient control of the rates of particular orbits (vibrational levels?), for humans to pass through. say, a brick wall, with no harm to either. That premise could also explain the multi-dimensional universe theories we hear about. That's a pretty cool thought!  :grin:

Major-Tom, as to life-after-death, even if the astral is real, it doesn't mean there is an afterlife. Everything we experience, physical or astral, could be nothing more than electrical impulses zipping through our brains -- ceasing to zip when we die. As I said earlier, it could well be that all our similarities arise simply because our brains are similar. On any given day I come down on both sides of that question.  Shoot, I can't even say for sure which premise I prefer!  :roll:
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: catmeow on April 17, 2006, 15:28:56
Quote from: greatoutdoorsis thought now that all physical matter is about 90% empty space, filled only with electrically charged particles whirling in orbits around larger bodies.
Actually it's more like 99.999999999999%.

If an atom were the size of a 6-story block of flats, the nucleus would be about the size of a pea, and the electrons would be the size of dust particles....!
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: greatoutdoors on April 20, 2006, 14:52:57
Major Tom wrote:
QuoteLike let's say you have afterlife communication and learn from what appears a deceased person certain things you could not know. Does that mean the person survived death?
That would certainly be proof that something survives physical death. I have had dreams involving friends or family that had died at the time of the dream. In one the deceased was tellilng me things that he said were very important and that I should remember them. Of course, when I woke up, I could remember none of it!  :roll: I have never had any of them give me verifiable information -- yet!  :wink:

Here are the things I know are "real":

Mental telepathy (though about 99% of practitioners are fakes)
OBE (been there, done that)
Magic (manipulation of the Energy Sea)

This is a short list, but there are worlds of possibility in them.

Here are my "what if's" about life after death:

If the Christian premise is true, then this physical world we are in could very well be Hell. In that case, it is quite likely we will come back in another physical form each time we die because the bible promises eternal damnation. (If this one's right I must have been a real stinker at some point!)  :razz:

If the Buddhist, New Age, etc. premises are true, then we are here to either learn lessons, reach enlightenment, or both. That being the case, the physical is just one stop on the road to wherever we are actually traveling. (If this one is right, where do I go to graduate?!!)

If the Atheists are right and the physical is all we have, then we should learn and do all we can in the astral while we have the chance, because when we die, it stops! (If this is true, then obviously I won't care once I die.

Last, my own semi-philosophy: our consciousness, abilities, etc., could be the result of random combinations of atoms and energy. There is no reason for being and no certainty of an afterlife. When we die our energy is dumped back into the communal pool. Sort of like that now-famous box of chocolates -- you never know what you will get.  :wink:

QuoteRegardless, and for what it's worth, intuitively, this idea as the brain as responsible for everything does have ridiculous ring to it at times, not?
I sort of hope you are right about this. My curiosity makes me want there to be an afterlife (other than the Christian Hell thing!).  :shock: But a part of me would also be rather relieved just to have things over and done! (Never mind, just a down day apparently.)

By the way, if this link comes through, here's a neat cartoon about Karma: http://billyblob.com/cartoons/karma-ghost/. If you can't click it, maybe try cut and paste.
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: mactombs on April 20, 2006, 15:25:36
QuoteIf the Christian premise is true, then this physical world we are in could very well be Hell.

I have thought this exact same thing - in fact, believed it was the case. Not good times.
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: Token on April 21, 2006, 06:09:26
One of my favorite discoveries of all time was Einsteins Theory of Special Relativity because it was one of the most fantastic slaps in the face for us pompous human beings ever.  (For those of you that don't know, Einsteins Theory of Special Relativity was the theory that showed that time does not move the same for everyone, but instead moves at different rates depending on relative speeds.  The faster you go the more time slows down for you, including the rate at which you age and so on.  The rate of time change increases rapidly the closer you get to the speed of light and in fact if you get infinitesimally close to the speed of light, time will slow down for you so much that the entire universe will age billions and billions of years in the time it takes for your heart to beat just once.)

The reason I love the theory so much is because it is the perfect example of how you can be 100 percent sure of something and be completely wrong.  Until Einstein proved otherwise, everyone "knew" that time was unchanging and so all kinds of things were derived from this "fact" including the wrong theory that there was an "ether" pervading the universe and so on.  It is a beautiful reminder that we must keep an open mind about everything.

The other reason I love the theory so much is because it also demonstrates beautifully that "when all possibilities have been exhausted, whatever remains must be the truth" (or however that saying goes).  OBEs and other metaphysical phenomenon (including our own self awareness which is quite metaphysical) are clues.  And I understand completely the frustration of not knowing what to think anymore because there are just so many clues and many times they seem to contradict each other.  A good example of this is the RTZ or that area in an OBE where you are in your bedroom and surrounded by familiar objects.  If this is the bedroom then why is there a candle on the dresser (There isn't a candle on the dresser).  Is this or is this not my bedroom?  This type of contradiction can make a person go nuts trying to figure out whats going on.  But here's the thing:  The bedroom looks like this in the RTZ because that's exactly how it looks if all the rules (that we don't know about) are being followed.  In other words, there is no contradiction, we just haven't yet figured out the rules.  So instead of being frustrated I like to just try and fit the pieces together as best I can and try and adjust my beliefs slowly and decisively as more information comes in.

As far as different religions, yea, really, what to believe!  Is there life after death?  Well if your asking me I say yes, but that's a big qualified yes because it's not quite that simple.  I'm at a point where I accept certain contradictions that will resolve themselves in due time.  One of these is that I believe in a single consciousness, but yet there are obviously individuals each with a supposed "soul" or consciousness and so bingo, contradiction!   :roll:  This will have to resolve itself and eventually will.  What I'm doing in the meantime is trying to imagine if there is only one consciousness and individuality is just an illusion (which I really believe it is) then this is a clue as to what happens after death.  (drum roll) :lol:   What I think is that it is impossible for me to not exist after death or everything would cease to exist including you.  If the tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?  What if a tree falls in the forest and there are people there to hear it but I'm not there to hear it, then does it make a sound?  I say it doesn't! :shock: This almost sounds like solipsism (the belief that I'm the only real soul and everyone else is just a good android), but it's not.  It' just taking what I consider a fact (singular consciousness) and applying it to everyday existence.  Somehow, someway, one consciousness is (seemingly) being split up into many individuals, but if one consciousness expires, and there is only one consciousness then obviously everything and everybody expires as well all at the same time.  So as far as I'm concerned I will always exist and I have always existed and I may not remember how things were for me a million years ago or remember today a million years from now, (which is probably a good thing) but to think that this very small moment in time was the only time available to me just doesn't make sense.  

Think of it another way.  If time is infinite, that is to say if there was never a beginning to time and there will never be an end to time, and if the universe were created by an immortal consciousness with no beginning and no end, then the span of my life is an infinitely small slice of time compared to the length of time of eternity.  Now an amount of time that is infinitely small cannot exist which means that unless my consciousness is immortal in both directions of time, I could never exist at all. :cool:
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: catmeow on April 22, 2006, 13:56:59
Quote from: TokenSomehow, someway, one consciousness is (seemingly) being split up into many individuals
I think I agree with you.  This would explain how just about everyone who attempts hypnotic regression remembers a "past life".  There simply aren't enough "past lives" to go round, bearing in mind the fact that there are about 6 billion people alive today and only about 600 milllion people have ever died (ie 90% of all people who ever lived are alive today - or some such figure).  So people actually recall "past lives" from the collective consciousness.

And I'll add another idea into the melting point.  The collective consciousness is "above time", and is aware of everything which ever happened and everything which ever will happen.  It just so happens that when we crystallise out of the collective consciousness into an "individual physical consciousness" our time awareness changes.  We are aware of the "now", can remember the "past" and have no awareness of the future.  But the "past", the "now" and the "future" all exist.  It's just that we are not permitted to see all of them.  All we can see is the "past".  It's a bit like watching a shadow sweep across the countryside as (say) the moon comes out of eclipse - the illuminated part is the past, the dark part is the future and the edge of the shadow is the "now".  So the "sweeping shadow" effect gives us the illusion of time and the passage of time.  There is no "now" so to speak, just a gradual revelation of the past as the shadow's edge sweeps along.  There is no such thing as "now"!
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: Token on April 22, 2006, 15:47:54
Yes and here is the thing about collective consciousness:  Let's say there are a thousand of us that remember a past life of being Robin Hood.  There isn't a contradiction here.  There was one Robin Hood, but his mind is the mind of a thousand people of today as his consciousness simply was split up into the minds of the thousand people that remember being him.  This is just an example as I think really it has to be expanded to be all inclusive.  I think in each and every one of us is the mind of every mind that ever existed or will ever exist so we have the potential to have past live regressions of anyone we fancy.  

I do like the idea that the collective consciousness is above "time" and it's a very good working theory too.  It just occurred to me that time has to be considered something that flows only relative to something else.  If all time moved the same then there would be no relative motion and time could just as well be considered to not move at all.  It would have to be taken in the same context as moving bodies.  A ship in space moves only relative to the stars.  If there were no stars, there would be no way of knowing if the ship was moving or not.  Adding the Theory of Special Relativity to the equation and we can now say that one persons time moves relative to another persons time if the two persons in question are moving relative to each other, but that still does not say how fast time moves relative to anything outside of this simple subset.  Does time move at the speed of light?  Does time move backward?  It doesn't make sense to say how fast time is moving, so it makes just as much sense to say time doesn't move at all or that there is no such thing as time.

I guess the only reason time exists is because the concept of now exists, like the line between the moon shadow and light.  If we had no awareness of the concept of now, then there would be no concept of time.

Time I think is how we see things when we are not able to see the bigger picture.  A good example of this is portrayed in the story "flatland".  Before I tell the story, what if I asked the question: Is there any relationship between a dot that appears in the middle of space, grows into a foot long line, then shrinks again into a dot and disappears, and a ball?  The answer lies in Flatland.  Flatland is a place that has only 2 dimensions, like a piece of paper and is inhabited by little 2 dimensional creatures that have no depth.  They can't see above or below the sheet of paper only along its length and width.  They move around each other by crawling over their heads or under their feet.  One day a creature on Flatland declared "I just say a dot appear in space that grew into a line then shrunk again into a dot and disappeared" Everyone laughed and said that no such thing could happen.  But it did happen and the explanation was simple enough to us creatures living in a 3 dimensional world.  A ball was flying through the air and passed through the sheet of paper.  When the ball first touched the paper a person in Flatland saw it as a dot in space.  As the ball passed through the paper the dot grew into a line, then as the ball exited the other side of the paper the line shrunk into a dot again and finally disappeared altogether.

I think time is like that.  It is something that appears to be dynamic when really it might just be the intersection of physical reality and conscious mind.
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: catmeow on April 22, 2006, 16:54:10
Token, I agree with everything you said in your last two posts. I think we both basically have the same or very similar notions of the collective consciousness. It makes sense to me anyway, and does explain past-life recollections.  It's interesting though that I've never heard a past-life regression practitioner mention the idea!

The passage of time is of course relative, there is no absolute measure for the passage of time.  The only way you can quantify the "speed" with which time flows is by comparison, ie one heartbeat for you (if you are moving close to the speed of light around the Earth) is equivalent to aeons on the Earth.  But it's still just one heartbeat as far as you are concerned!

Quote from: TokenI guess the only reason time exists is because the concept of now exists, like the line between the moon shadow and light. If we had no awareness of the concept of now, then there would be no concept of time.
That's my take on the matter too.  I kind of think that the passage of time is an illusion.  Time is supposed to be a fourth dimension, in addition to the 3 spacial dimensions, but it also has this peculiar property that we are all "moving through time".  I'm troubled that time should be distinguished from the 3 spatial dimensions in this way, after all what does it mean to be "moving through time"?  Nobody actually knows!  No physicist can tell you what "moving through time" means!

The moonshadow idea is actually my own, and it follows simply because I want to make time behave just like the 3 spatial dimensions.  According to this moonshadow idea, we are not moving through time at all.  All that is happening is our awareness of history (ie our awareness of past events) is moving along the time dimension. The edge of this awareness (ie the "edge of the shadow") is what we call "now".  This ever-moving boundary of awareness is what we interpret as the passage of time.  According to this model of course, all of history, past and future, has already happened.  The collective consciousness is unblinkered and knows everything that has and will happen.  But individually we are blinkered by "now" awareness, and this gives us the illusion of the passage of  time.

Of course this all implies that everything is predetermined.  I'll have to work on that!  possibly there are an infinite number of universes and therefore an infinite number of possible "times".  We perhaps live evey possible life.  It all gets a bit boggling, but then that's the nature of infinity!  But I like the moonshadow idea.  :smile:
Title: Introduction and a Theory
Post by: EnderZ on April 29, 2006, 15:24:38
catmeow and token, I am really enjoying this thread!

I do not think there really is a difference between "reality" and the "astral." I think religions did their best in describing it with medaphors, but people took it to literal.

Like the concept of heaven and hell only existing after you die. I think it is possible for a person to experience "hell" while living along side another person who may be experiencing "heaven." The astral is all right here, along side us everyday.

Multi-demensional theories like string theory, for example, have the requirement of different demensions to exist in order to understand and predict the behavior of subatomic particles. Membranes of different universes or demensions that  exist paralell to each other and interact with each other on a level that we cannot see. Just like you explained how we are not permited to see infront of the sweeping shadow.

When I first started having obe's and the like, I used to fantasize all the time about time travel, and telepathy and got really caught up in the new age aspect of it, while all of my friends just thought i was either crazy, or too influencial.

But, now I think I have come to realize this. Every person here, living on earth, creates their own reality wether they are aware of it or not. Just has how some of my friends may think I am crazy because I claim to have Obes, which for me is real. But for them, they cannot fathom the possibility of this, and so it is not real in their reality. Who is to say that I am right, and they are wrong? We are both right, for our worlds that we create for ourselves.

An example, some people, believe the earth is hollow at its core. And for them, it is. It is their reality that they create for themselves. Skeptics that think "wow this person is just nuts" For them, the earth is not hollow at its core. People that can be convinced that it is hollow, change their realities. They assume it was hollow all along, they just didn't know it, but infact they created it to be hollow for themselves. If you can understand what I am trying to say.

I do not think people are as limited as they think they are in the physical. Not in the sense of what is possible in the astral, but in the sense of what is possible in the physical, that partains to the rules and boundaries of living in todays world.

People are exactly where they are in life because they chose to. They create their own realities. But because people do not realize they have a choice, they can fall into hell and not know that all this time they could be experiencing heaven.