The Astral Pulse

Spiritual Evolution => Welcome to Spiritual Evolution! => Topic started by: Hypernicus on June 30, 2006, 10:12:37

Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Hypernicus on June 30, 2006, 10:12:37
Adrian Cooper writes that killing animals even for eating them are destroying a bit of ourself and everything else, and it will hit us back by the law of karma. This goes for every living creature. But why then are there animals who exists only to eat meat?
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Nay on June 30, 2006, 10:46:13
I don't believe this.. and seeings how I don't......will it work this way for me?

Maybe I'm just not ready for this yet... perhaps next time around I'll feel this way.
Title: Re: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Rea
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on June 30, 2006, 13:12:41
Quote from: HypernicusAdrian Cooper writes that killing animals even for eating them are destroying a bit of ourself and everything else, and it will hit us back by the law of karma. This goes for every living creature. But why then are there animals who exists only to eat meat?

We live in a predator universe. Everything must consume from other things. There is also a balance. The predator exists to ensure that the prey does not over populate, destroying their food supply, then the entire prey population would starve.

Humans are not really designed to consume meat. Do we have claws for catching other animals? Do we have teeth for ripping and biting raw flesh? Would you even think about eating a raw dead animal? Could your stomach handle that? On the other hand we do quite well with eating fruits and vegetables. We can get everything we need from them. Being the conscious creatures we are, given the choice which should we choose? Which causes less suffer? Which is more economical both $$ and environmentally?

Do you know where most meat consumed comes from? Most animals raised for meat do not live a natural life, but rather a life of suffering brought on by man. Is that what you wish for animals? A life of suffering just so you can enjoy the taste of its flesh?

Do I think that eating animals has a karma effect? I would say yes. Do I think it will destroy you and damn you? No. If it is so bad then why are we placed here, in a world where everything must take from others in order to survive?
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Hypernicus on June 30, 2006, 13:58:00
So it is only beings with consciousness that has to equilibrate karma?
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: greatoutdoors on June 30, 2006, 14:09:55
Fallnangel77,

QuoteWe live in a predator universe.
I totally agree. Our world requires that almost every organism kill to survive. This starts at the one-celled level and goes to the top of the food chain.


QuoteDo we have claws for catching other animals? Do we have teeth for ripping and biting raw flesh? Would you even think about eating a raw dead animal? Could your stomach handle that?
The short answer is, yes, yes, yes and yes.

The human physical form is designed to be omnivorous. Likewise with the Champanzee. We are designed as opportunists -- we will eat what comes along. Chimps, and others in the ape and monkey family, will eat meat and have been filmed actually hunting and killing other species.

We are not designed as herbivores and could not live on grass and such. We are also not designed as "pure carnivores" which is why we don't have as large and sharp a tooth or claw as those species.

As to eating raw meat, there are many people all over the globe who do just that. The Maisai (I think) in Africa routinely drink fresh blood, either "a la cart" or mixed with milk. And no, my stomach wouldn't handle it for a second, but that's just because of our culture. Eating raw, live grubs doesn't trip my trigger either, but the Australian natives like them. If we had to do it, our tummies would adjust.

From a pure biological standpoint, humans are meant to eat fruits, nuts, grains, veggies -- and meat.

Quotewhy are we placed here, in a world where everything must take from others in order to survive?
I wish I knew!!!  :sad:

The point of all this is that I don't think killing in order to survive, if done as gently as possible, will gather any negative karma. However, some cultures, I believe Korea among them, routinely beat dogs to death in order to enjoy what they call "sweet meat." That is bruised and bloody flesh. If that doesn't earn them some major bad karma, then it should!
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: greatoutdoors on June 30, 2006, 14:18:05
One more thought just came to mind. Did you know that owls, if fed only cuts of meat instead of the whole carcass, would die of malnutrition? The same thing goes for wolves and some other species. Each of these require nutrients found in the digestive tract of their prey in order to survive.

And did you know that cats are just about the only species that must eat meat or they will die? Again, malnutrition. Their systems need nutrients found only in meat. (Modern cat food can work around this artifically to some extent, but we are talking natural diets here.)

Just interesting tidbits.  :smile:
Title: Re: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Rea
Post by: Adrian on June 30, 2006, 18:18:48
Quote from: HypernicusAdrian Cooper writes that killing animals even for eating them are destroying a bit of ourself and everything else, and it will hit us back by the law of karma. This goes for every living creature. But why then are there animals who exists only to eat meat?

Hello Hypernikus,

Thanks for your comments.

It is true that everything is one, and that we harm anything else we harm ourselves. This is a Universal truth.

However, natural laws are taken into account as well as motive and freewill.

The Universe provides for all organic life by means of the food chain. With the sole exception of humans, all animals live within these laws.

Humans however are motivated by many other factors that go far beyond these Universal principles. Humans kill to gratify their sense of taste. Not only that; humans kill for profit, sport and many other material, ego driven and selfless reasons.

Cows are bred for milk and slaughtered for big macs at 3 years.

When birds are bred for free range eggs, all the males are slaughtered because they do not lay eggs.

I could go on.

Cause and effect is a Universal law; and this is cause and effect. At the same time people learn by these laws, and humans will, sooner or later learn that killing for meat for the wrong motives is wrong and will stop.

Now the fact is; humans were never designed to eat meat. Our teeth and digestive systems are designed for vegetation, fruits etc.. The reason humans eat meat is because their parents taught them to, and their parents before them and so on. People are raised eating meat.

I am vegan and receive all the nutrition and protein I require and more, and I never kill anything.

Best regards,

Adrian.
Title: Re: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Rea
Post by: Lighthouse on June 30, 2006, 20:53:16
Quote from: Adrian

It is true that everything is one, and that we harm anything else we harm ourselves. This is a Universal truth.

.

Adrian,

If you believe that everything is One, how can you believe that the One can be harmed?  

Kerri
Title: Re: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Rea
Post by: Adrian on July 01, 2006, 12:37:09
Quote from: Lighthouse
Quote from: Adrian

It is true that everything is one, and that we harm anything else we harm ourselves. This is a Universal truth.

.

Adrian,

If you believe that everything is One, how can you believe that the One can be harmed?  

Kerri

Hello Keri,

"Harm" is relative.

Although we are all one at a Universal level, we are also individuated for the purposes of learning, experience and evolution.

My comment related to the Law of Cause and Effect. For every cause there is an effect, so if you harm another aspect of the Universe as a cause, there will be a corresponding effect.

Also; the natural flow of the Universe is expansion and well-being; whereas harm is contractive and not well-being.

Best regards,

Adrian.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Lighthouse on July 01, 2006, 14:29:37
Your body kills millions of bacteria every day.  Does that mean that you will suffer "negative consequences" from this natural occurrence?
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Adrian on July 01, 2006, 17:23:30
Hello Lighthouse,

Quote from: LighthouseYour body kills millions of bacteria every day.  Does that mean that you will suffer "negative consequences" from this natural occurrence?

With respect; I think you are taking this a bit too far  :smile:

Bacteria are a natural process; as are the anti-bodies that kill them, as are every other process in nature execept for human actions which are pre-meditated, ego driven for the most part, and selfish for the most part.

People slaughter animals for one purpose only; to gratify the sense of taste.

It isn't for nutrition, because vegans, who eat a natural human diet, live on average 7 years longer than meat eaters; and that is a fact.

Not to mention the fact vegans do not generally suffer from obesity, diabetes, heart disease or any other issues arising from food abuse.

Best regards,

Adrian.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Lighthouse on July 01, 2006, 17:51:41
QuoteWith respect; I think you are taking this a bit too far  

Maybe... maybe not.  I guess it all depends on your perspective.  From my perspective, we ARE ONE and no harm can be done to anyone, anywhere... we are ALL eternal and this "reality" is an illusion.  You can judge things as "good" or "bad" and are free to explore that duality... because it is a perfect process of knowing the Self.  

Personally, I don't think it really matters what people do or what or how they eat.   Exploration of our beliefs (the belief that eating certain things and being certain ways) is all part of the evolutionary process and personal exploration.  As One, if you feel judgment of "another" for something they do, that is something you might wish to explore within because the one you are judging is yourself.  

Kerri
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Hypernicus on July 01, 2006, 17:52:55
QuoteNot to mention the fact vegans do not generally suffer from obesity, diabetes, heart disease or any other issues arising from food abuse.
Then why are the world not alerted by the media, politicians, doctors etc??
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Adrian on July 01, 2006, 19:40:40
Quote from: Hypernicus
QuoteNot to mention the fact vegans do not generally suffer from obesity, diabetes, heart disease or any other issues arising from food abuse.
Then why are the world not alerted by the media, politicians, doctors etc??

Hello Hypernicus,

Good question; and the answer is usually "money"; i.e the "meat industry" and all its associated industries such as fast food and supermarkets.

Spiritual Healing is true healing; we know that beyond doubt. Why then is the "drugs industry" so wealthy and powerful, and frequently inventing new ailments to "cure" with their drugs?

The answer is nearly always human greed.

That aside; to their credit, doctors do often make sensible dietary recommendations which are generally ignored.

This is why there are millions more obese children today than there was 10 years ago, and obese children, having created the fat cells, will either become obese adults, or adults that always struggle to control weight gain. Same for diabetes, coronory heart disease, colon cancer...........

Best regards,

Adrian.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Hypernicus on July 02, 2006, 03:09:06
What is there in meat that humans need and what food can substitute it? Protein was mentioned, and is that all?
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: malganis on July 02, 2006, 04:38:10
QuoteWhat is there in meat that humans need and what food can substitute it? Protein was mentioned, and is that all?

vitamin B12. Supplements would be needed.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Alaskans on July 03, 2006, 00:03:44
I don't know what your teeth are like but mine are obviously omnivore. If you think eating meat is wrong, go live in the wilderness for a few years then tell me what you think, because that's how we naturally lived, without prepackaged tofu.

Lighthouse wrote:
"Your body kills millions of bacteria every day. Does that mean that you will suffer "negative consequences" from this natural occurrence?"

Logically there aren't any breaks in the laws of things, what happens on a small scale happens on a large one as well.

I'm still not sure of animals role in the scheme of things. As far as a soul goes they don't seem to be any different from us (..do they have free will?..), but you never see any actual animal ghost (although some spirits take the form of them.) Perhaps they are simply recycled into the universe, perhaps it doesn't really matter because within their short time in eternity they are here. This business in Korea really pisses me off, if you kill you kill respectfully.

How do you judge life? How is the life of a carrot any less valuable than the life of a mouse? They are both alive. They both have functioning bodies. They both can sense. Is the mouse greater because it can communicate better to us? Then what about a paralyzed mouse? Wouldn't that suddenly make its life equal to the carrot? How then would it be greater than the carrot who was unable to communicate to us from birth? Life knows no classifications, it permeates all matter mundane and magnificent.

If you aren't going to kill (be it on a molecular level or not) you will die. Energy transference, birth/death/consumption IS the base action of the entire physical universe.  


p.s. sorry if I overdid a casual conversation, which threads I hammer is almost totally random :chainsaw:
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Hypernicus on July 03, 2006, 10:33:18
So fish, egg and milk, and I will be lighter/better.

As I understand the meat makes the body heavier and the mind dull.. True?

Can one just stop eating meat? Will the body do something when it hasn't had meat for a while?
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Alaskans on July 03, 2006, 17:40:52
If I lived off grass and bark in the wild I would be too weak to move about properly or defend myself and die. Could you imagine eating 15 pounds of grass and bark a day? Most areas of the world dont have year round fruits or vegitables. (We only have 3 months of summer here).
Sorry, I didnt mean to attack your beliefs, only show you the other side of things and that eating meat cant bad karma unless you make it so.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: SS_Patrick on July 03, 2006, 20:23:59
Quote from: Lighthouse
Quote

As One, if you feel judgment of "another" for something they do, that is something you might wish to explore within because the one you are judging is yourself.  

Kerri


I don't believe that at all. Perhaps it could be said in some sense, that everything is one, but we are still not the same thing. Even though everything is interconnected, we are different individuals, different souls.

About killing animals, I agree with Alaskans>. I like animals and I'm concerned about environmental issues, but hugging trees and behaving like a hippie doesn't do anything good.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Lighthouse on July 04, 2006, 22:31:07
There is one Soul.  Separation is the grand illusion.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: learning on July 05, 2006, 02:16:15
I think that being vegan is healthiest for the planet and the people.  I noticed that vegans are usually much kinder than meat eaters.  There must be some reason.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Lighthouse on July 05, 2006, 03:52:48
Quote from: learningI think that being vegan is healthiest for the planet and the people.  I noticed that vegans are usually much kinder than meat eaters.  There must be some reason.

:locolaugh: LOL!!!  
Title: Re: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Rea
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on July 05, 2006, 07:47:58
Quote from: runlola
Quote from: HypernicusAdrian Cooper writes that killing animals even for eating them are destroying a bit of ourself and everything else, and it will hit us back by the law of karma.



I think eating meat is unhealthy & what eating meat is doing to
the planet is pretty bad, so in a way that statement is true.

Is that not karma? That is how I see karma, cause and effect. I don't see it as some deity with a clipboard.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on July 05, 2006, 08:03:52
QuoteDo we have claws for catching other animals? Do we have teeth for ripping and biting raw flesh? Would you even think about eating a raw dead animal? Could your stomach handle that?
The short answer is, yes, yes, yes and yes.[/quote]

Well it would be interesting to see a human hunting down an animal with only what they have been endowed with and then dig in and start eating.



QuoteWe are not designed as herbivores and could not live on grass and such.

There are many more things in the plant kingdom than grass to eat.  :smile:

QuoteAs to eating raw meat, there are many people all over the globe who do just that.

QuoteFrom a pure biological standpoint, humans are meant to eat fruits, nuts, grains, veggies -- and meat.


There are people all over the globe that never eat meat and they are perfectly healthy.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on July 05, 2006, 08:10:43
Quote from: HypernicusWhat is there in meat that humans need and what food can substitute it? Protein was mentioned, and is that all?

Humans can get all the protein we need from plant sources.

As far as I know the only thing that cannot be found in fruits and vegetables is vitamin B12, though there are vegan sources of this. But I need to do more research on this, and maybe others too. It use to thought that meat was the best source of protein, after all.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: MisterJingo on July 05, 2006, 08:24:07
Quote from: SS_Patrick
Quote from: Lighthouse
Quote

As One, if you feel judgment of "another" for something they do, that is something you might wish to explore within because the one you are judging is yourself.  

Kerri


I don't believe that at all. Perhaps it could be said in some sense, that everything is one, but we are still not the same thing. Even though everything is interconnected, we are different individuals, different souls.


This has nothing to do with all 'being one', but more to do with human behaviour. In short, we judge ourselves by our own prejudices. If we innately judge others for whatever reason, those mechanisms are used to shape our world view, so even if it's not on a conscious level, those views shape our view of ourselves.
If we hold hate for a person, that hate is generated and held internally – and so for every emotion.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on July 05, 2006, 08:29:50
Quote from: Hypernicus
Can one just stop eating meat? Will the body do something when it hasn't had meat for a while?

One can just stop eating meat, though depending on your current diet it might be better to gradually come off of it by stop eating beef, then pork, chicken, and finally fish.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Nay on July 05, 2006, 10:41:49
Quote from: learningI think that being vegan is healthiest for the planet and the people.  I noticed that vegans are usually much kinder than meat eaters.  There must be some reason.

LOL.   You must be one of those mean meat eaters... because we all know that a vegan wouldn't say such a hateful, blanketed statement.  :lol:
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: greatoutdoors on July 05, 2006, 11:07:47
Alaskans>
You make an excellent point. Those who claim they don't kill because they don't eat meat are fooling only themselves. You must kill to survive – end of story.

Plants are no less alive because they cannot communicate with us. Who knows, to them, we may not seem "alive" because we miss so much of what they perceive!  :wink:

Adrian,
It is well that you choose to be vegan, but you could not sustain it without nutritional supplements or, as Alaskans said, in a truly natural environment. Alaskans is also correct about omnivore vs. vegetarian. Humans were most certainly designed to be omnivorous – that includes meat.

I agree whole-heartedly on disliking the "food factory" environment we presently live in. But that is not limited to meat factories. I "guestimate" probably 95% of our vegetables, fruits, nuts, grains, etc. are produced in the same manner. That is what is going to bite us in the butt in the long run – as it is already doing health-wise.

You say vegans eat a natural human diet. That is only partially true. Vegans eat a highly artificial diet that would be unsustainable in nature. As to vegans living longer than meat-eaters, even if true, there are many explanations for it that have nothing to do with meat or the lack of it. There have been studies done on both animals and humans that show a diet deficient in calories will extend your life span. That is one possible explanation. There are many others.  :confused:

Most people could eat a lot less meat than they do with no harm done. This is shown by cultures in which meat makes up a small part of their diet. But even those cultures certainly do eat meat, mostly in the form of fish, squid, etc.

The closest thing to a non-meat culture I can think of would be the Japanese, Chinese and folks on the Pacific Rim. But they are not meatless. They rely on fish (and other sea food) and supplement with chicken, pigs, etc.

Hypernicus,
Vegans do not eat fish, egg or milk. They eat nothing with any animal connection. A vegetarian eats diary products and fish as part of their diet. If you are going to go vegan, you should read up on nutritional needs carefully. You can be a vegetarian without supplements, but on a vegan diet you will need supplements. No diet is a magic formula to good health -- exercise plays a huge role in how we feel.

Fallnangel77,
Early humans had brains as part of their arsenal. (How we are using them lately is another subject entirely!  :shock:  :lol: ) I can give many examples of humans killing and eating, as I did in my earlier post. Early humans would drive animals off cliff edges when they could. Cave art shows them killing animals with spears and such. That goes on today with other species, and other cultures.

Native Americans hunted Buffalo on horseback, but they also tracked and killed deer and other animals on foot, sometimes with nothing more than a knife. It was traditional to eat certain parts of the animal on the spot. Snares, nets, deadfalls were (and are) also weapons in early man's arsenal. Pygmies in Africa use poisoned darts (blowguns) to kill prey.

I know there is more than grass to eat, but think about it. What would you eat in the middle of winter if there were no grocery stores or restaurants? Or better yet, in early spring when any stored food was almost certainly in short supply? And for that matter, how would you store a winter's worth of food?

Here is a link that discusses early agriculture: http://www.aces.uiuc.edu/~sare/backinfo.html.

If you can give me examples of cultures that don't eat meat in their normal diet I would appreciate it. I have done some research in nutrition and am always interested in adding to that knowledge.

I am playing devil's advocate somewhat in this post, but if true, beneficial change is to be made, then people first have to deal with the way things are – not just how we wish they were.

PS: There seems to be an issue about eating raw meat. That was the least of early human problems and is not a huge issue for many people today. How many of you eat sashimi? How many cringe at sushi? The Tom Hanks movie, Cast Away, sheds some light on what folks will eat when they have to.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Hypernicus on July 05, 2006, 11:09:15
Why cut out fish? Nothing can substitute it? Fish is some of the healthiest and most needed food for human body in the world.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: greatoutdoors on July 05, 2006, 11:12:06
Hypernicus,

Bingo!  :smile:
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Hypernicus on July 05, 2006, 11:12:37
Maybe this reading
http://www.derrickjensen.org/backster.html
will change your view on plants :)
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Nay on July 05, 2006, 11:23:42
Nice post greatoutdoors.  This is one of those subjects that always seems to turn into a "I'm better than you" war....either physically, mentally or spiritually.  Gets very old for me to see it.  Now I'm just indifferent to the whole subject.  

:seesaw:
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on July 05, 2006, 12:26:42
Quote from: NayNice post greatoutdoors.  This is one of those subjects that always seems to turn into a "I'm better than you" war....either physically, mentally or spiritually.  Gets very old for me to see it.  Now I'm just indifferent to the whole subject.  

:seesaw:

On my part I don't think anyone is better than anyone else so I certainly hope that I do not come off as such. I could honestly careless what anyone eats. I respect everyone who has posted even if we disagree.

To be honest, a few years ago when this was discussed before I disagreed with Adrian. But just recently I had a moment of "enlightenment" that made me change my mind.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on July 05, 2006, 13:28:18
Quote from: greatoutdoors


Adrian,
It is well that you choose to be vegan, but you could not sustain it without nutritional supplements or, as Alaskans said, in a truly natural environment. Alaskans is also correct about omnivore vs. vegetarian. Humans were most certainly designed to be omnivorous – that includes meat.

The only supplement that is needed in a diet without meat is vitamin B12, and that could be debated. B12 is produced by bacteria so it really has nothing to do with meat. It can be all around us. The only reason that meat is considered the only source of B12 is because it is the only consist source in general. It can be all over fruits and vegetables, or it may not. It can be in the air, water, and soil. If we did not wash our fruit and veggies so rigorously then we would most likely get plenty. But due to the chemicals we use on our plants it is needed. So a supplement is best taken to play it safe.


Quote
I agree whole-heartedly on disliking the "food factory" environment we presently live in. But that is not limited to meat factories. I "guestimate" probably 95% of our vegetables, fruits, nuts, grains, etc. are produced in the same manner. That is what is going to bite us in the butt in the long run – as it is already doing health-wise.

It takes a lot less resources to produce fruits and vegetables than it does for meat, even organics. Organic fruit and vegetables are becoming a lot more available and the prices are dropping (atleast in some areas which has been debated else where  :smile:  ) What are the similarities?

Quote
You say vegans eat a natural human diet. That is only partially true. Vegans eat a highly artificial diet that would be unsustainable in nature.

How is a vegan diet artificial? As for it being unsustainable in nature, I have not thought it through but for the most part it is very sustainable.

Quote
Most people could eat a lot less meat than they do with no harm done.

Even the US government will admit to that, so that is saying a lot.  :lol: But I think we can all agree on that.


Quote
I know there is more than grass to eat, but think about it. What would you eat in the middle of winter if there were no grocery stores or restaurants? Or better yet, in early spring when any stored food was almost certainly in short supply? And for that matter, how would you store a winter's worth of food?

First, vegetables don't all just grow during the warm to hot summer months. Some like cooler weather. There are those that are ready to eat in the Spring, Summer, and Fall. The only time growing or finding vegetables to eat would be a problem would be in the dead of winter, though that would depend on your location. Some places can grow crops all year round.

Here one would only need to store a food supply for a few months, and they use to do it but it has been largely forgotten now in this day and age. Today we have refrigeration to keep anything we grow for some time. Though without it most people had root cellars which were similar and would keep vegetables for awhile as well. Then you can can your vegetables. I remember my grandparents doing it all the time. That would keep things over the winter.



Quote
If you can give me examples of cultures that don't eat meat in their normal diet I would appreciate it. I have done some research in nutrition and am always interested in adding to that knowledge.

Indians (those from india) have had a vegetarian diet for some time, for religious reasons.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on July 05, 2006, 13:32:33
Quote from: HypernicusWhy cut out fish? Nothing can substitute it? Fish is some of the healthiest and most needed food for human body in the world.

Fish is the healthiest meat one can eat. Flax seeds contain omega 3 fatty acid like that in fish so if you cut out fish be sure to add this to your diet.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Alaskans on July 05, 2006, 21:58:52
First, vegetables don't all just grow during the warm to hot summer months. Some like cooler weather. There are those that are ready to eat in the Spring, Summer, and Fall. The only time growing or finding vegetables to eat would be a problem would be in the dead of winter, though that would depend on your location. [/quote]
You can't harvest anything in the spring here, no way. But early fall is good.
Quote from: fallnangel77Some places can grow crops all year round.
I'm always laughing at the survival movies where they get stranded on a tropical island paradise (like cast away.) Looks more like a vacation to me. However, most parts of the world aren't tropical.

Quote from: fallnangel77Here one would only need to store a food supply for a few months, and they use to do it but it has been largely forgotten now in this day and age. Today we have refrigeration to keep anything we grow for some time. Though without it most people had root cellars which were similar and would keep vegetables for awhile as well. Then you can can your vegetables. I remember my grandparents doing it all the time. That would keep things over the winter. .
Its not forgotten here, Eskimos would put their fruit in fish/animal oil in their  permafrost cellars (now the permafrost is melting and they have to switch to refrigerators :confused: ). The fruit was only used for Eskimo ice cream (whale blubber), not as a real source of food. Tell an Eskimo he has to become a vegan and he would laugh. The thought is ridiculous, there is no way you can live in the arctic on celery sticks, or even as many berries as you can possibly pick in a season. 50 years ago most Eskimo's couldn't exactly go to the store, pick up some potatoes or seeds for cabbage and lettuce and start a farm. And they couldn't exactly burn their fur parkas and snow pants to wear lichen in -80f weather cause they didn't want to harm any animal. Sure, not many people lived in the arctic, but other parts of the world its the same, we relied on animals for the existence of the human race. That is why so many cultures hold animals in the utmost respect and reverence, they give their life for ours, they pulled us through drought, famine and the ice age.

This is one of those never ending subjects, probably worse than pro-life/pro-choice, where views get narrower and narrower. This is my last post on this thread.

P.S. Thats a very interesting link Hypernicus  :yikes2:  Maybe im not crazy afterall :crazy:
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: malganis on July 06, 2006, 06:52:00
I think everyone should eat according to their metabolic type. Some dont need much proteins while others do.

I was vegeterian for one year. Stopped few months ago. I never thought i would get back to eating meat but i did. I wasnt really careful about my diet. I ate a lot of fruit. At first i ate avocadoes but after 10 of them i now get sick just by thinking on them.  Before i was 63 kg (174cm height) and went down to 55 kg very fast, while eating only apples during the day. After a week i was spending three hours in toilet so is started eating cooked food again.
I went to 52 kg for a while due to sickness. I became a bit scared at that time but i was still determined to continue. I started eating more various food. When my gums receeded a bit i started to doubt in this my diet. Now i eat more eggs and meat as weel and i gained weight back. Almost.

And something more on topic.

http://mercola.com/2000/apr/2/vegetarian_myths.htm
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on July 06, 2006, 07:02:51
Alaskans>, you don't have to stop posting. We are just discussing and that is my goal, not "winning". You are probably right that things are getting circular on that subject so a change.

To be completely honest if my only option was to kill an animal to survive I probably would. But for me right now, as well as I am sure most (though maybe not all) people on here we don't have to worry about surviving off the land. We have grocery stores, farmers markets, restaurants, and many sources to get food. When I go to the store to buy food I know that unless the meat says otherwise (though this is rare here) that the animal was most likely kept in a cage or stall its entire life where it was most likely fed food it would not normally eat and given drugs and chemicals to "enhance" it so it will provide more meat and to keep it alive long enough to do so. Since it is in an unnatural environment infection and disease is common, so more drugs are needed to keep it alive. These drugs and chemicals are then passed on to the customer at the grocery store in the meat they buy. The animals well being is ignored in these meat factories. I work with a guy who use to work in a slaughter house. He did not do any killing, but he saw enough of what went on and it was not a pleasant experience as the animals throats were slit and then carved up before they were even dead. I cannot in good conscious support an industry that makes animals suffer their entire life. Buy buying the meat I am saying that this is ok, and I do not think it is. I can get everything I need from non-animal sources so I why should I contribute to the suffering of animals when I don't have to. That is the reality I live in. Yours may or may not be different, but as one who strives to be spiritually aware I cannot ignore where my food comes from.

Hypernicus, that looks like an interesting article. I have only scanned over it but I intent to read it all soon. From what I gather it implies that plants are conscious, which I whole heartedly agree. Plants are very important to me spiritually. I love and respect all plants. The thing about a vegetarian diet is that I am not killing plants to eat. I am eating the fruit which the plant has produced to be dropped in order to spread its seeds. If I did not eat the fruit from the plant then the fruit would either drop and rot or be eaten by bugs or animals. The fruits' sole purpose is to be removed.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on July 06, 2006, 07:19:35
Quote from: malganisI think everyone should eat according to their metabolic type. Some dont need much proteins while others do.

I was vegeterian for one year. Stopped few months ago. I never thought i would get back to eating meat but i did. I wasnt really careful about my diet. I ate a lot of fruit. At first i ate avocadoes but after 10 of them i now get sick just by thinking on them.  Before i was 63 kg (174cm height) and went down to 55 kg very fast, while eating only apples during the day. After a week i was spending three hours in toilet so is started eating cooked food again.
I went to 52 kg for a while due to sickness. I became a bit scared at that time but i was still determined to continue. I started eating more various food. When my gums receeded a bit i started to doubt in this my diet. Now i eat more eggs and meat as weel and i gained weight back. Almost.

And something more on topic.

http://mercola.com/2000/apr/2/vegetarian_myths.htm


Any diet must have variety and everyone should do research to make sure they are getting what they need, especially when you change your diet.

Just looking at the beginning of the article that is just silly. I know plenty of vegetarians who have had good pregnancies and healthy babies and plenty of meat eaters who have miscarried. I think it is terrible for the doctor to blame her miscarriage on her not eating animal products. I know two doctors that would disagree and say that a vegetarian diet is much better for you.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Nay on July 06, 2006, 09:43:03
Geeeeeez... lets call it a tie, shall we?  

Talk about having the last word... :roll:  Oh wait.. I, for right now, have it.   :grin:
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Vilkate on July 06, 2006, 13:22:43
No, I have it now!
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: greatoutdoors on July 06, 2006, 14:54:27
I love having the last word!  :lol:  :lol: (Nay, the ball is in your court!)

Fallnangel77,
I totally agree with your rationale, but have just about admitted defeat. I believe that we "privileged, spoiled Americans" are caught in an economic trap. I know that pretty much every bite of anything I eat (vegetable or meat) is laced with toxins, pesticides, or mutated genes. But not being independently wealthy, I can't pay five prices for "real" food. So I close my eyes and eat it anyway. I also know that current food production practices cannot continue forever.

If I were king, my goal would not be "meatless vs. vegan," but rather, sustainability. It takes a harmonious circle of plants and animals to ensure that all survive. Within that circle is room for all diet preferences. PBS has had a couple of excellent programs on this subject -- one which was "The History of Chickens."  :lol:

Getting back to the point of the thread, IMO there is no negative karma attached to killing to survive. Karma issues come into play when you are cruel, whatever the reason – whenever you inflict needless suffering.

Actually, that raises a question for me -- what happens if you are cruel lthrough ignorance and not by intent?
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Nay on July 06, 2006, 15:11:41
QuoteActually, that raises a question for me -- what happens if you are cruel lthrough ignorance and not by intent?
I really need to find a emoticon that is a can of worms.  (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/crazy.gif)

Ball in my court huh?  (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/zha.gif)

:grin: :lol:
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Selski on July 06, 2006, 15:41:10
Quote from: Nay(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/zha.gif)

That's a great smiley Nay - care to share where you got it from?  :smile:

Sarah

PS  I'm sure I've got something to say about this thread, but not tonight.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on July 10, 2006, 08:00:53
Greatoutdoors,

I do agree with you that what we need most is sustainability. We need to strive for healthy food and healthy food production. That in itself would lead to better karma. I see more and more organic and natural foods on the shelves, so obviously the demand is there and more people must becoming more aware. So hopefully we are starting on the path. As the supply increases and the production practices become more efficient, then prices will come down as well.

I think one very important step in this direction is for people to start growing some of their own food again. This would exclude meat for a lot of people, but even those that live in apartments can grow a few vegetable plants.

QuoteActually, that raises a question for me -- what happens if you are cruel lthrough ignorance and not by intent?

That is a complicated question, especially for being so vague. I do think you reap what you sow. If you sow cruelty you will become more cruel. But how can you be cruel and not really know it? Maybe that is the purpose of this "law". As you reap more and more of whatever it is you sow, you become more aware of it. Karma is based on intent, but life is rarely black and white.
Title: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Alaskans on July 10, 2006, 17:23:01
You have very good insight fallnangel  :thumbsup: I like people with good insight. I agree with the fruit idea, fruit is grown by the plant in order to be eaten. Basicly the plant is giving you permission to eat that part of it, in exchange for scattering the seeds.

I also agree that we should as a simi-advanced species lean tward non-meat foods (I know I didnt sound like it, but I wasnt trying to prove we should just eat meat, only that its not 'evil', it is sometimes neccicary.)
Title: Re: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on July 12, 2006, 07:56:36
Thank you Alaskans. I am not the only one.  :-)

To be completely honest with myself though, I do realize that in the process to get the fruits and vegetables from the farm to my home that the plants are most likely hurt. So some pain comes into play reguardless of what we eat. But this year I have started growing a few vegetables so that I can control how I get atleast some of my food and ensure that they are treated "humanely".

As for karma and what you eat, it really does not matter what you are told. It does not mean much if you are not sure or just believe or think something. It only matters if you know. Don't take what I or Adrian or Nay or anyone else may say. Instead meditate on the subject and explore the answer for yourself. Then you will know what is right for you.
Title: Re: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Nay on July 12, 2006, 11:02:20
Actually, my father had to feed his family and one of his jobs was a slaughter house.  Of course this was years ago but I still remember being on top a horse and witnessing a cow being shot right between the eyes with a very large, loud gun. 

Then I got older and we had chickens and ducks.  I had made one of them my pet, against my father's advice.  It was fine getting the eggs in the morning, but when I was made to watch my pet rooster get its head snapped off, that was a different story.  I was even made to pluck him.. I was being taught a lesson.  I can tell you, that we were quit poor and I was hungry.. I ate my pet for dinner that night.  I don't think he would have minded.  I'd like to think that he would have given up his life, so I could eat.

Title: Re: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on July 12, 2006, 13:07:13
When I first got into vegetarianism I ordered the free vegetarian starter kit that PETA gives away. I just wanted to see what they had to say but mostly I wanted the recipes. They also send a DVD. After reading what the meat factories do to the animals I decided I did not want to watch the DVD. It is still unopened. But reading awhole book on it? That must be uplifting.

I could not raise animals without getting attached to them, and then turn around and kill them.

The co-worker that worked in the slaughter house, he said that the guy that did the killing of the hogs would never have to worry about serving on jury duty. They would not allow him to do so! That has to say something.
Title: Re: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Nay on July 12, 2006, 13:12:14
Quote from: Selski on July 06, 2006, 15:41:10


That's a great smiley Nay - care to share where you got it from?  :smile:

Sarah

PS  I'm sure I've got something to say about this thread, but not tonight.

Totally didn't see this post, sorry Sarah!  :-)  Here ya go.

http://www.clicksmilies.com/
Title: Re: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: Hypernicus on July 12, 2006, 13:41:20
Quote from: fallnangel77 on July 12, 2006, 13:07:13
When I first got into vegetarianism I ordered the free vegetarian starter kit that PETA gives away.

Thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on July 12, 2006, 14:22:25
Quote from: Hypernicus on July 12, 2006, 13:41:20
Thanks for the tip.

You are welcome. I think http://www.theveggietable.com/ (http://www.theveggietable.com/) is probably better if you just want recipes and info on becoming a vegetarian. Though both are free so checking them both out could not hurt.
Title: Re: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on July 12, 2006, 14:23:47
Quote from: Hypernicus on July 05, 2006, 11:12:37
Maybe this reading
http://www.derrickjensen.org/backster.html
will change your view on plants :)

Thank you for sharing this. I got to read all of it and it is really interesting.
Title: Re: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: greatoutdoors on July 13, 2006, 14:21:43
WITW,
You said
QuoteBut how can you be cruel and not really know it?
How about when you give a pet away, for whatever reason, or run one of those "free to good home" ads? I did it a time or two when I was younger and didn't know better. How do I know what kind of home that pet wound up in, or how they were treated? It still bothers me and I am not sure but that I may have to pay for it one day. I guess that kind of thing is "the big one" for me. I had power over the life of an innocent and basically blew it.

Another one on my conscience happened when I was around 12 or so. A friend and I found two bird dogs locked in a kennel in the woods by a creek bed. They were very skinny and one could not get up. Being young and totally stupid, we assumed they were sick. Of course, over the years I have figured out that some kind #%#-hole had just gone away and left them to starve. The kennel was locked and we couldn't figure out how to get the padlock off. We finally just left. I don't remember ever telling anyone about it, so the dogs undoubtedly died -- unpleasantly. Yes, it was ignorance, but it was also cruel. That one haunts me! (Stupid me -- sitting here crying while I write this.)

Nay,
What a shame your family chose to teach you such a hard lesson. Life will slap you around all on its own without the need to "teach reality". Reality bites everyone sooner or later. I also learned my first lesson in the food chain from chickens. An uncle had caught a chicken while I was nearby (about age five or six I think) and I ran over, thinking he caught it so I could pet it. Well, he rung its neck just as I got close. Not fun!
Title: Re: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on July 13, 2006, 15:27:42
Your intentions were to be helpful. Why worry over something you have no control? It is just as likely that the pet got a good home and was well cared for.

As for the dogs in the woods, you were young and did what you could with your understanding to try to help. You had good intentions. As for the outcome you never know what did happen. Someone may have come along and helped.
Title: Re: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: greatoutdoors on July 17, 2006, 14:29:27
WalkerInTheWoods,

Thanks for your words, they help. You are right in a lot of respects. And thanks for the karma mark, too!  :-)

At least with my pets I hope I have learned what they were perhaps sent to teach. As for those poor bird-dogs, I still think I have an accounting to make. Again, you may well be right. It would be nice to think that they were rescued.

By the way, I like the change in your pen-name.  :-)
Title: Re: Animals - killing - karma from the book Our Ultimate Reality
Post by: WalkerInTheWoods on July 21, 2006, 12:08:25
Thank you, greatoutdoors. I think it fits me much better.  :-D

I have not studied the concept of karma very much, but to me it is not about defined marks that get placed on a clipboard for every move you make. It is more about how you are shaped and developed. The experiences clearly shaped you, making you more compassionate and wise. It seems to me that you have already accounted for it.