The Astral Pulse

World Cultures, Traditions and Religions => Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! => Topic started by: Alan McDougall on September 20, 2008, 12:14:57



Title: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: Alan McDougall on September 20, 2008, 12:14:57
Hello Forum

Did God create evil?"

 At first it might seem that if God created all things then evil must have been created by God. However, there is an assumption here that needs to be cleared up.

Evil is not a "thing" - like a rock or electricity. You can't have a jar of evil! Rather, evil is something that occurs.

Evil has no existence of its own - it is really a lack in a good thing.

For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole - but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all that existed was good.

One of the good things that God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose.

So God allowed humans to choose good or non-good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a "thing" that required God to create it.

Take care

Alan


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: Tayesin on September 25, 2008, 05:49:30
Hi Alan,
Everything is/was created without the stamp of Good or Evil on it. So god didn't create either, it just created by the act of disseminating it's energy/awareness. So, as you said, Evil is not a thing..... good choice of words too Alan.

What a being chooses to do with the energy it holds is a choice between effective positivity of Intent or, effective negativity of Intent. So it is only a choice thing, and that choice is what we humans perceive with our limited ability as Evil or Good.

Even within those beings choosing the more negative aspects of co-creation there is Light, and you can see it no matter how much effort they put into trying to hide it, lol.. I love that bit.

As such, what we call 'God' must have the the ability to choose Intent also, otherwise it could not exist in any fashion. It must also have what we call 'Ego' .... and we usually misperceive this as a negative thing too, lol again. If Ego is the aspect of ourselves that recognises the self, then it must exist within God for God to be able to recognise itself as anything.

So, you are on the 'right' track there with your thinking. Keep it up, you are doing well.


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: Starvingpercussionist on September 25, 2008, 08:26:30
I think of identifying with the ego as the only true evil with all other evils being manifestations of that. The ego is a construct of concepts centered around the idea of a separate identity from all that is - all concepts are the result of a separated body awareness attempting to reconnect with itself. I think, Tayesin, you have ego mixed up with self awareness  8-). The ego, by my definition, is everything that you think you are. Of course you're right though, if self awareness is good, then all beings also have good within them, it's only a matter of what you choose to see (being that when you hold total self awareness you hold an awareness of what is real for all things). Thus it reasons, in truth, reality is wholly good. This is God's perspective, and it would be yours too if your ego did not get in the way of you realizing it (I still struggle with this ego problem myself, just so you know). How to get rid of the ego, you may ask? Simple. You must become self-aware, body-aware, and environment aware all at once. I've said it before, and I'll say it again (since few people here read my works anyhow) that there are infinity of ways to get to this point. When you reach this point, this is called the "holy instant". It is from this perspective that your focus becomes unlimited and unconditional love flows through you because all your barriers to it have been removed. This is "Christ consciousness", the only true good which can never be lost, because the potential of it remains in every sentient being with awareness - Christ consciousness is a state of total awareness in which there is simply no need to think. It's a state unimaginable, yet not impossible to attain.

Just my opinion though.  :-P


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: Alan McDougall on September 25, 2008, 08:46:06
Hey

Nice response from both you guys.

Ego is the main reason for evil. But God or no God we don't need to be told by him or anyone else what is right and what is good. Existence is a duality of good, bad, light, dark positive, negative, love, hate etc etc

I think that we are hardwired intrinsically to know the difference between the two. These are the moral absolutes residing in the hearts of all decent people.

Of course these absolutes do not exist in the hearts of psychopaths and self centered despots like Hitler

Take care

Alan


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: Starvingpercussionist on September 25, 2008, 09:08:51
Hardwired, yes, but how are we programmed and conditioned in this brave new world? That's the deeper question, because in separating what is known intrinsically from what is falsely assumed we gain a greater clarity of reality, and of the good.


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: interception on September 25, 2008, 10:39:24
A child is born in a certain African country. From the age of 5 all he knows is war, hunger, death and survival of the fittest. At the age of 10, a AK47 is shoved into his hands.
He now kills anybody on command.

Is this child evil? It was not like he was really ever given a choice.

Does this child have a hardwired moral sense of right and wrong? (All he has ever known is war and death, as far as he is concerned killing people is the way the world works.)

Can you say for sure you would have acted differently (thrown down the gun and walked off into the bush) if you had been born into the same circumstances?


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: Alan McDougall on September 25, 2008, 11:06:08



Hey interception

I live in Africa and know exactly what you mean


Quote
A child is born in a certain African country. From the age of 5 all he knows is war, hunger, death and survival of the fittest. At the age of 10, a AK47 is shoved into his hands.
He now kills anybody on command.

Is this child evil? It was not like he was really ever given a choice.

Does this child have a hardwired moral sense of right and wrong? (All he has ever known is war and death, as far as he is concerned killing people is the way the world works.)

Can you say for sure you would have acted differently (thrown down the gun and walked off into the bush) if you had been born into the same circumstances?


The adults who forced this innocent to kill child is guilty. Some of these children manage to escape and grow beyond this appalling life. "They are not evil just frightened"

The adults try to re-hardwire these kids and are successful at times. But once the child excapes this awful reality they state that they know what they were doing is intrinsically
wrong.

Of course your point is valid and evil is subjective, Hitler really thought it was good to murder the Jewish people

Take care

Alan

 


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: interception on September 25, 2008, 11:44:36
Hi Alan

I also live in Africa. I do not know what you believe, but I think that humans are part of God (or the source of everything if you will), we are part of the same consiousness.
So what humans create IS what God creates - its the same thing. Evil is part of this reality, we create it, and it is here for a reason: to help the spirit grow by providing challenging circumstances. (Does this sound too simplistic? Probably. :))

I know this does not fit into the Christian view of reality at all.  :-)

Also, the only way I can justify the life of these African child soldiers in my own mind, is to allow for reincarnation (or some similar system) to provide a balance of some sort.


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: Alan McDougall on September 25, 2008, 13:19:55
Where in Africa do you reside?. I live in South Africa

And yes "the buck stops at Gods desk", and he is accountable for everything that happens.

I believe that all existence equates to God, we are all made from God stuff to be a little crude

Take care

Alan



Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 25, 2008, 19:56:55
I posit that there is no such thing as evil,  only confusion over why something exists or has happened.


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: interception on September 25, 2008, 21:13:47
I posit that there is no such thing as evil,  only confusion over why something exists or has happened.

Tell that to a man who has seen his property destroyed because of something as banal as the color of his skin, his 2 year old child shot in the head and his wife raped and killed right in front of his eyes by a ruthless warlord... I bet he will not agree with you. I bet he will not be confused as to the existence of evil.

If you will allow me to  play some devil's advocate.


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: Tayesin on September 26, 2008, 04:18:49
Firstly just want to say Hi to No Leaf Clover... not seen you around for a long while my friend. Now onto the discussion....

While in our human awareness level it is a difficult thing to perceive reason for why things happen, especially the things that appear so horrific to us, re: the child soldiers and the man who watched his family be killed, etc.

This thing we call God does not create, nor see any action as Evil or Good, no matter what our human created belief-systems have to say about it. Remember that we are prone to Judgment thoughts about absolutely everything and we will continue to do so until we wake up and see the bigger pictures.

God/Universe provides according to the choices we make, individually, co-operatively, as nations and as world inhabitants. It cannot do otherwise, it responds to our thoughts, our choices, our Intents, and also abides by the Agreement choices we made prior to incarnation.

Let's use the example of the Twin Towers event. Each person involved in that event had an agreement to be there, to be a part of the event. All sides in that equation had intent, had agreement and the Universe/god could only provide the means for it to be realised in the physical. Without this important part of the equation, nothing could have happened!

So, we can say God provides the means to fulfil our choices. It cannot decide to not provide the means, because then it would go against the whole reality of itself and purpose of coming to know itself and its abilities through its creations.

Also, all the cultures of our world have been working on a mindset of "Might is Right" for the past 10,000 years or more! This mindset must see itself all the way to its conclusion and demise, before anything new can replace it. And because of it's basis belief, it must come to its conclusion with a bang and not a whimper before the seeds of the new can take hold.

I like to say that nothing new is born to this world without birth-pains. So the new ways, the future we will create, is now an embryo awaiting the time for its birthing into reality.

We humans have the ability to choose something else, but cannot expect it to become reality until its time is right. So too with our soul agreements for co-creating experiences here in the physical, we can adjust them to some degree, but the things already set in motion are near impossible to divert without the majority of people making clear choices for something else.. and even then those new choices will take their own time to come to fruition as a reality.

For now in the world, we are meant to be finding Equanimity. The ability to see what is happening and not be effected by it, to change the things we can change, and allow the rest to pan itself out to its completion. This does not mean that we should just sit back and let everything unfold if we have the power to make a change at the time, unfortunately, most of us are not aware of the power we hold and so the current choices will take prevalence.

To make an effective change NOW, would take the vast majority of the world's population to make a different choice together, as a whole. And it is this precise aspect of co-creation that prevents us making really effective choices for the betterment of all humanity, AT THIS TIME.

It is well and 'good' that we are brought to tears by the things we see in the world today, and we must remember that humans have been doing these things for the longest time already, so we also need to understand that this is how it has to be for now, until this mindset is completed, the cultures have reached their own demise and are ready to be replaced by the embryonic new ways of equality and understanding and genuine love for all.

Be well.


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: Alan McDougall on September 26, 2008, 07:41:26
Tayesin

Quote
This thing we call God does not create, nor see any action as Evil or Good, no matter what our human created belief-systems have to say about it. Remember that we are prone to Judgment thoughts about absolutely everything and we will continue to do so until we wake up and see the bigger pictures.

I don’t really like the term "This thing we call God" I think a better way would be "The Universal Mind"

I also think that there are consequences for what we do right and what we do wrong with our earthly lives that go beyond the vial of death. We are accountable for our choices and to be able to choose is what or should separates us from the beast of the field.


interception

Quote
Tell that to a man who has seen his property destroyed because of something as banal as the color of his skin, his 2 year old child shot in the head and his wife raped and killed right in front of his eyes by a ruthless warlord... I bet he will not agree with you. I bet he will not be confused as to the existence of evil.

If you will allow me to  play some devil's advocate

I know exactly what interception is talking about as we live in the same area and this type of horror is nearly a dailly reality

Tahe Care

Alan


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 26, 2008, 08:21:06
You, too, Tayesin.  I was just thinking of all the uplifting people that post here.  I don't get to see nearly enough of it anywhere else in my life!

Tell that to a man...

The warlords misunderstand their actions, and does the victim if he is grief-stricken.  Pretty much the same stance a Buddhist would take I think, for the same reasons.


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: Everlasting on October 05, 2008, 03:33:58
It's quite simple really, Evil is the opposite of good. What's to misunderstand, No_leaf.?


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 25, 2009, 21:22:36
Nothing, because there is nothing to either "good" or "bad" in the first place.


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: kurtykurt42 on September 25, 2009, 23:21:13
I posit that there is no such thing as evil,  only confusion over why something exists or has happened...

Nothing, because there is nothing to either "good" or "bad" in the first place.

Our actions determine whether we are good or evil. If someone is confused about why something exists and keeps torturing and killing it, it still makes him evil.

So, I agree that there is nothing to 'good' or 'evil' but there is something to the effect of our actions and the impact is has on others.


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 26, 2009, 20:52:10
Our actions determine whether we are good or evil. If someone is confused about why something exists and keeps torturing and killing it, it still makes him evil.

How do you know?

Quote
So, I agree that there is nothing to 'good' or 'evil' but there is something to the effect of our actions and the impact is has on others.

...which you would like to dichotomize into a simple duality of one thing vs. another?  I want a technical definition of what is "good" vs what is "bad."


Don't think I'm just baiting, either, because I know a scientific duality here that goes right out of here, towards the top, but though it's in plain sight not many people ever find it.  Instead they worship "good" and "bad" which are mockeries, arbitrary morals and based on nothing but the shadow of the real thing.  Whether or not someone is harmed is irrelevant.  You can harm yourself or another and still do "good."  The real duality is much more subtle and varies infinitely.


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: kurtykurt42 on September 26, 2009, 21:46:39
There's a difference between doing good and being good.


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 27, 2009, 08:42:57
But what in the hell determines whether or not something is "good"?


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: kurtykurt42 on September 27, 2009, 15:33:01
Those with knowledge, experience and power to judge decide.


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: zareste on September 27, 2009, 15:41:10
Dualists don't know or think much, but they do certainly have power. All that good and evil of theirs gives them a lot of experience in killing


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 27, 2009, 21:22:00
Those with knowledge, experience and power to judge decide.

I don't suppose you're one of those people, are you?  Because if you are, then maybe you could explain what reasoning you use in a little more detail.


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: kurtykurt42 on September 28, 2009, 02:14:55
Every single person on every planet in the universe are these people. Those with knowledge have the ability to decide what is right and wrong. Those with experience can have an easier time deciding and those with power can take action, using their wisdom, knowledge and experience.

On this planet and perhaps in this universe we have free will. We have the power to judge people and the power act on those beliefs.

So, you can question good and evil all you want but one day you will judge someone and take action according to what you believe.



Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: zareste on September 28, 2009, 03:14:24
I've had a look at what dualists have done to this galaxy alone, planet after planet, country after country. They feel no guilt because they are an absolute good


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: kurtykurt42 on September 28, 2009, 03:30:59
What exactly do you mean by dualists?


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: zareste on September 28, 2009, 06:06:17
this is another one of those moments when a dictionary is useful


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: kurtykurt42 on September 28, 2009, 07:03:07
The term ‘dualism’ has a variety of uses in the history of thought. In general, the idea is that, for some particular domain, there are two fundamental kinds or categories of things or principles. In theology, for example a ‘dualist’ is someone who believes that Good and Evil are independent and more or less equal forces in the world.
examples: male and female, light and dark, active and passive, motion and stillness, good and evil.

Dualism contrasts with monism, which is the theory that there is only one fundamental kind, category of thing or principle.

According to monism, there can be no dualism existing in any corner of our universe. There is only one power that is overriding, and that power is God. According to the scriptural evidence, there is only one power that is omnipotent, not two. Thus, any doctrine of dualism which contends that there are two equal powers opposing each other (good and evil) is a false doctrine.

So, I'm guessing you are a monist?



Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 28, 2009, 09:52:22
It isn't a matter of whether you "are" one philosophy or another.  They are all perfectly correct in their own right.  They simply offer different perspectives.

"Good" and "evil,"  I still say no such thing.  "Entropy" is a physics concept and the closest thing to real "evil" that exists.  The opposite of entropy in physics would therefore be "good," but no such thing technically exists.  It would be the equivalent of intelligent life forces at work (in fact the only thing which defies entropy), which science has yet to consider in any of its calculations.

But everything IS one.  This is a realization, not a philosophy.  It is true whether you realize it or not.  Yes, you can see things as two different things, or three, or four, or infinitely many different separate parts.  But ultimately everything came from one thing, or everything "came from" nothing but IS one thing all together.  When science says it's looking for "grand unification," they're talking about this "one" that spawns all else simply by its existence.  In their case, a formula, but what they are really looking for will never be simplified into a formula.


What I would like to see though is discussion on how you all determine what you consider to be "good" or "bad," which is really just defining your purpose here.


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: Yamabushi on September 28, 2009, 10:20:25
It isn't a matter of whether you "are" one philosophy or another.  They are all perfectly correct in their own right.  They simply offer different perspectives.

"Good" and "evil,"  I still say no such thing.  "Entropy" is a physics concept and the closest thing to real "evil" that exists.  The opposite of entropy in physics would therefore be "good," but no such thing technically exists.  It would be the equivalent of intelligent life forces at work (in fact the only thing which defies entropy), which science has yet to consider in any of its calculations.

Schroedinger once said he thought human beings fed off "negative entropy" (the good entropy). He got a lot of flak for that though.


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: Stookie on September 28, 2009, 15:58:36
What no_leaf_clover is getting at is that we all have different standards as to what good and evil is. Most people base their morals in what they perceive to be good and evil, whether that perception is right or wrong. I think that war is a good example of this difference in perception and morals.


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: no_leaf_clover on September 28, 2009, 21:59:41
Let me try to explain what entropy is in physics,  so that we may consider its opposite and what about it resembles common notions of "good."


Entropy is...

A loss of energy to the environment,
A loss of information (another kind of energy), or in other words dis-organizing something, scrambling it up.
The cause of inefficiencies in all machines for any purpose.
(Also, not scientifically, a lack of awareness!)


Before these things are considered "bad," though, it is the cause of separation, splitting things apart from divine inherent potential (union), into individual existences and experiences.  Thus "carving" space from the infinite energy source to make creation appear within it.  You would not exist if not for entropy creating voids.


So the opposite of entropy would be,

Gaining energy from the environment,
Gathering or re-creating information,
The reason and mechanism by which all machines are created in the first place.  (Entropy does not create machines that minimize work, rather it inflates the amount of work to be done)
The increase of awareness.


Gathering, organizing and using energy from the environment is basically what all of our technology does, and basically what humans do in order to continue to live.  To lose energy, organization and awareness is to increase suffering and eventually die.


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: Alan McDougall on October 02, 2009, 13:11:07
Nothing, because there is nothing to either "good" or "bad" in the first place.

Quote that to the victims of the Holocaust evil like good is a aweful reality of every day life


Title: Re: Why there is evil and what is evil
Post by: no_leaf_clover on October 02, 2009, 22:13:32
a Holocaust survivor
a toddler who's had a toy taken from him
a man reading an internet page who is offended by seeing such a comparison
I can't control what any of these people think or feel, but I can control my own feelings.

Everyone knows many people talk the talk with philosophy, but rarely implement their beliefs to the full extent to their own lives.  Ie they partake in behaviors, ways of thinking and feeling, that seem to be at odds with the philosophy or belief system they profess to embody.  I cannot say that I am not such a person myself, and I would readily admit I have much work to do with various parts of my spiritual process.  But I still stand by my words 100% that there is no such thing as evil.  Or good.  In the ultimate sense.  There is pain,  but there are no hard rules how you much experience or interpret your feeling of pain.  There are evolutionary, biological, inherited implications of how you should interpret pain, but still no rules that you can't rewire your brain to handle.  There is no good in suffering, that I'm sure we can agree upon.  All I am saying is that there are many different ways to interpret and interact with the reality all around you, and many different levels which we can operate on.