Hi all,
I'm not implying all angels / guides are made up, but sometimes it seems that people do make those up to feel more secure. I believe I myself did make myself believe that I was contacting my guide in dreams, but now I doubt it was true - it was a difficult period of my life when I felt lonely and I really needed to feel some sort of support.
Any thoughts?
Tom Campbell says our Guides/Angels/Helpers are our interface with ourselves. This makes a lot of sense, due to the fact that the Guide always knows what is best for us at any given time. This is why when I close my eyes to go to sleep, I say to myself "By my act of will, I RELEASE my physical control over my body. TAKE ME to your desired destination. SHOW ME what I need to see. TEACH ME what I need to learn. AWAKEN ME in my dreams so I may realize I am dreaming. So I may TAKE CONTROL of and REMEMBER them, so I may ENJOY and LEARN from them. I visualize all those capitalized letters as fading into the darkness before my eyes. This technique of Brain Entrainment works to perfection. Who else do you trust more than your Higher Self? :-)
Well, he says they're our interface with the Larger Consciousness System... which, yes, I guess is, in effect, ourselves... since it's what we all are.
embrace,
In any case... if you contact a "guide" and that "guide" gives you information which is beneficial to you... what does it matter where the information came from? :)
Monroe says that guides sometimes are part of our I-There and that
they don't help us the first or even the third time, but perhaps not
until the tenth time when we really end up in serious problems. The
important thing is that we have to learn how to help ourselves, if
we can. Secondary or guides' help aren't really helping us or
enabling us to develop.
One other task guides do, is to point us in various directions, so we
can see that there are other possibilities open for us, and that's a
kind of help too. Guides show us the possibilities open for us, but
we have to make the choices, otherwise the help is of no good.
Quote from: Pauli2 on June 03, 2012, 20:02:14
Monroe says that guides sometimes are part of our I-There and that
they don't help us the first or even the third time, but perhaps not
until the tenth time when we really end up in serious problems.
Possibly this is because we ignore them the first, second, third ...until the tenth time and yes by the time it's the tenth time the problem has become serious! :-)
Quote from: Pauli2 on June 03, 2012, 20:02:14
Monroe says that guides sometimes are part of our I-There and that
they don't help us the first or even the third time, but perhaps not
until the tenth time when we really end up in serious problems. The
important thing is that we have to learn how to help ourselves, if
we can. Secondary or guides' help aren't really helping us or
enabling us to develop.
One other task guides do, is to point us in various directions, so we
can see that there are other possibilities open for us, and that's a
kind of help too. Guides show us the possibilities open for us, but
we have to make the choices, otherwise the help is of no good.
Y'know... the more I hear and read about Monroe's experiences, the more I'm forced to come to the conclusion that while he had some great experiences(and that's great in itself), he never really understood even the basics behind what he was experiencing. And that sucks, because people reading his books as their first source for this information are going to become vastly confused. Such a shame.
Quote from: Xanth on June 03, 2012, 22:43:23
Y'know... the more I hear and read about Monroe's experiences, the more I'm forced to come to the conclusion that while he had some great experiences(and that's great in itself), he never really understood even the basics behind what he was experiencing. And that sucks, because people reading his books as their first source for this information are going to become vastly confused. Such a shame.
That's why experiencing it for yourself will always top what's written in a book! :-)
He was a pioneer. Go look at Lewis and Clark's map of America. Now go look at Google Maps.
His role was to lay the foundation, not flesh out the specifics. Debating the specifics from hundred of individual experiences is essentially our job :-P. That's what it took to make Google Maps.
Well, that or satellite technology. But please give me a call when you invite an astral satellite. I'll be the first to invest.
Cheers,
Contenteo
Quote from: Xanth on June 03, 2012, 22:43:23
Y'know... the more I hear and read about Monroe's experiences, the more I'm
forced to come to the conclusion that while he had some great experiences
(and that's great in itself), he never really understood even the basics behind
what he was experiencing. And that sucks, because people reading his books
as their first source for this information are going to become vastly confused.
Such a shame.
This time you're throwing out a claim in little more than your regular
unspecific fashion, so I actually have to ask you:
What exactly are you meaning?
Quote from: Pauli2 on June 04, 2012, 07:18:24
QuoteY'know... the more I hear and read about Monroe's experiences, the more I'm
forced to come to the conclusion that while he had some great experiences
(and that's great in itself), he never really understood even the basics behind
what he was experiencing. And that sucks, because people reading his books
as their first source for this information are going to become vastly confused.
Such a shame.
This time you're throwing out a claim in little more than your regular
unspecific fashion, so I actually have to ask you:
What exactly are you meaning?
Yeah, how can you say what he understood for himself? His books follow his own discoveries and how he tried to make sense of them, and that's something we all have to go through. I don't believe that you can just read a bunch of things you assume to be the "real" truth and have all the answers you need. You have to take a long inner journey and very few of the answers are going to be obvious. All the book knowledge in the world can't prepare you for the reality of things.
Quote from: Pauli2 on June 04, 2012, 07:18:24
This time you're throwing out a claim in little more than your regular
unspecific fashion, so I actually have to ask you:
What exactly are you meaning?
Thank you for asking Pauli, but I’d like to point something out.
I’m not “throwing out a claim”. I’m giving an opinion of Robert Monroe’s conclusions. I apologize if I came across as such.
I’ll further elaborate though.
What I mean is that the conclusions that Monroe presents in his book have singlehandedly handtied a generation of individuals looking to “walk in his footsteps”. His terminology alone has caused this to happen. “Out of Body Experience”? He coined that term, and in doing so locked a generation of followers into a certain belief system that one is “in” their bodies. There aren’t many people these days willing to even open up to the thought that perhaps that’s not the case.
Honestly... Monroe might have been a pioneer in this field, but his ideas and concepts live on as the dividing point of contention among the community today. It’s hard enough to try and open people up to other possible ideas and theories if they’ve read Monroe’s books, especially if it was their first read on this subject.
I respect his conclusions and his accomplishments. I just wish people wouldn't take them literally.
QuoteYeah, how can you say what he understood for himself? His books follow his own discoveries and how he tried to make sense of them, and that's something we all have to go through.
Except a lot of people don’t go about it in that fashion. They try to “do it exactly as Monroe did it”... they either forget or don’t realize that this is a unique and personal experience. You simply can’t have Monroe’s experience. You can think and believe you’re having Monroe’s experience, but that’s about it...
QuoteI don't believe that you can just read a bunch of things you assume to be the "real" truth and have all the answers you need. You have to take a long inner journey and very few of the answers are going to be obvious. All the book knowledge in the world can't prepare you for the reality of things.
Right, you can’t. And that’s entirely my point. A lot of people seem to forget this very simple concept.
Xanth, lots of text, but you seem evasive about answering.
Let's go back and see what you stated.
You wrote:
Quote from: Xanth on June 03, 2012, 22:43:23
Monroe's ... he never really understood even the basics behind what he was experiencing.
Not
even "the basics"??!
Never?!
Apparently you must know what "
the basics" are. Could you tell
us a little more about that?
For example who's "
basics" you are talking about? Are they your own?
Quote from: Xanth on June 04, 2012, 14:06:58
Right, you can't. And that's entirely my point. A lot of people seem to forget this very simple concept.
And it applies to all authors out there. If you're trying to say Monroe's work throws people off, you could say the same about Thomas Cambell or any other author. Until you experience it yourself, it's just a concept with no attached percept... in other words, not real.
And as far as people trying to do it exactly as Monroe, he developed an amazing system that anyone can follow and learn to experience more than their physical selves. What more could a person ask for? Do you really think Gateway will lead someone astray?
Stookie I agree with everything you said there. There are many authors that have written or did programs about Astral Travel, they have their own system/techniques and they all work. They may come at it from different angles, but we all end up in the same place. I wrote that earlier about experiencing always topping what's in a book, because words alone in a book can not even begin to explain how magnificent accessing the Wider Reality/Astral World Consciously Aware is. But, we would not know of this, at least the techniques to get there, if there wasn't pioneers like Robert Monroe to tell us.
Pauli stated before that he still hasn't had a successful OBE, everything that he sees right now is written in a book. But, post any questions anywhere on this site and Pauli will know an answer to it. He has done a considerable amount of research over the years and is constantly reading any new material that is released. But no matter how many books a person reads, nothing is going to match the actual experience and that goes with everything in life.
The Astral Pulse has always been pretty good at killing off its gurus. It's an ambitious bunch, for better or worse.
But...Monroe did not invent the term Out of Body Experience. Just the abbreviation of it with Charles Tart.
The idea of something leaving the body, as well as the term, was already around long before that.
Besides, was it not Monroe himself who had some hand in changing that idea, long before everyone else, with claiming you were "travelling in consciousness" utilizing different focuses of attention?
He was more than a pioneer. His experiences and ability is off-the-chart in comparison any published writer I know, and untouched by everyone.
I admit it takes some personal experience to be able to recognize that.
So who's the next one to kill off? TC? :-)
Quote from: Stookie_ on June 04, 2012, 16:07:10
And it applies to all authors out there. If you're trying to say Monroe's work throws people off, you could say the same about Thomas Cambell or any other author. Until you experience it yourself, it's just a concept with no attached percept... in other words, not real.
Yes, entirely. Even Tom's work.
QuoteAnd as far as people trying to do it exactly as Monroe, he developed an amazing system that anyone can follow and learn to experience more than their physical selves. What more could a person ask for? Do you really think Gateway will lead someone astray?
I have seen it happen before, when people take things too literal.
As I've said before, they're guides... not rules. It's a great guide, as you said. Tom's information is also great... as a guide.
However, once you start taking someone else's opinion/belief as a rule, you've lost track.
Quote from: Major Tom on June 04, 2012, 17:55:05
The Astral Pulse has always been pretty good at killing off its gurus. It's an ambitious bunch, for better or worse.
But...Monroe did not invent the term Out of Body Experience. Just the abbreviation of it with Charles Tart.
The idea of something leaving the body, as well as the term, was already around long before that.
Besides, was it not Monroe himself who had some hand in changing that idea, long before everyone else, with claiming you were "travelling in consciousness" utilizing different focuses of attention?
He was more than a pioneer. His experiences and ability is off-the-chart in comparison any published writer I know, and untouched by everyone.
I admit it takes some personal experience to be able to recognize that.
So who's the next one to kill off? TC? :-)
I wouldn't say anyone is killing off authors. LoL
What I'm attempting to do is point out the flaws in using an author(s)/book(s) as your sole means of information gathering regarding the non-physical. As Stookie so keenly points out... you can read every book on the subject, but if you haven't directly experienced it yourself, you'll never truly know and it will forever be nothing more than a "belief" to you.
I view them all with the same skeptical viewpoint that everything you read and learn about via another persons experience should only be used as only a guide.
And yes, I still hold Monroe in high regards, even if I feel he's made some eternal blunders which future astralnauts are paying for time and time again because they choose to read his books in order. LoL
I do have to thank him for the phasing concept. :)
Anyway, if we're gonna kill anyone off I imagine that David Warner fellow might be next on the hitlist!! ^_~ LoL
Quote from: Xanth on June 04, 2012, 18:54:51
And yes, I still hold Monroe in high regards, even if I feel he's made some eternal blunders which future astralnauts are paying for time and time again because they choose to read his books in order. LoL
I do have to thank him for the phasing concept. :)
Anyway, if we're gonna kill anyone off I imagine that David Warner fellow might be next on the hitlist!! ^_~ LoL
That's a buddy of mine, and a very good projector at that. Be careful... :-)
But
eternal blunders? Really?
Well okay, perhaps I was being a bit facetious with that statement. LoL
Quote from: Major Tom on June 04, 2012, 17:55:05
So who's the next one to kill off? TC? :-)
Thomas Campbell's information was not all that original. His information is similar to all of the Seth material channeled by Jane Roberts from the 60's and 70's. I much prefer reading the Seth material, since it has more practical things you can do.
Monroe in his first book seemed to act like he was an originator. He acted like this was all new information being presented to the public on out of body experiences. Oliver Fox and Sylvan Muldoon in each of their own books both had much more detailed information on out of body experiences. And they preceded Monroe by 30 or so years.
H.P. Blavatsky even listed all the different states of astral consciousness in her inner group teachings. These can be considered the focus levels Monroe supposedly discovered. She wrote this information in 1891.
http://esotericinstructions.net/
Quote from: todd421757 on June 04, 2012, 20:58:47
Thomas Campbell's information was not all that original. His information is similar to all of the Seth material channeled by Jane Roberts from the 60's and 70's. I much prefer reading the Seth material, since it has more practical things you can do.
Does it?
My mother in law has a bunch of Seth books she's been wanting me to read lately. Perhaps I'll give them a shot! :)
QuoteMonroe in his first book seemed to act like he was an originator. He acted like this was all new information being presented to the public on out of body experiences. Oliver Fox and Sylvan Muldoon in each of their books both had much more detailed information on out of body experiences. And they preceded Monroe by 30 or so years.
The subject certainly had it starts waaaaaay before Monroe. I think his real claim to fame is bringing it more into the public eye. Which, really, is much appreciated. LoL
Hey Todd,
The historical context is very interesting.
I can take your comments a bit further, which is that a lot of the Roberts material is remnisicent of Alice Bailey, by some considered the founder of the New Age Movement, who in in turn seemed inspired by Blavatsky, dating back even further.
It can be a little upsetting the further back you go, in terms of that there seem to be so many sociocultural influences with respect to these ideas.
That's okay to an extent, but not when it is not easily traced back to actual experience in the present.
I don't disgree that Monroe presented these ideas as almost new in his first book, while that was not really the case.
But it was new, in the sense that was new to him, which is why he was able to take a fairly fresh approach,or atleast escape some of the old concepts in his later work.
Also, he made it mainstream, and without him, it may not that much of a stretch that forums like these and others would not exist, at least not in the same format.
Xanth would not even exist :wink:
And of course, he does back up his conclusions with experiences, whether or not you agree with those conclusions. The same cannot be said for everyone.
But I really do believe that approach is the only way forward in area.
MT
Quote from: Xanth on June 04, 2012, 21:27:34
Does it?
My mother in law has a bunch of Seth books she's been wanting me to read lately. Perhaps I'll give them a shot! :)
Xanth,
Read Seth's two books called The Unknown Reality Volumes 1 and 2. They were the best of the Seth books.
I dont see this as Killing off Robert Monroe , even tho he did die in 1995 . Its more that we all create our own reality . We all see things as we want , as our personal experence interepets them . What I liked abut Monroe, and Buhlman is they had there first a.p. by accdent . D. Sutphen also stated one of his first girl friends would go out of body after taking an asprin . He also regressed him self back to a past life where he was in jail ( early 1900s ) and used a.p. for a temp escape . desert rat
Quote from: todd421757 on June 04, 2012, 20:58:47
Thomas Campbell's information was not all that original. His information is similar to all of the Seth material channeled by Jane Roberts from the 60's and 70's. I much prefer reading the Seth material, since it has more practical things you can do.
Which parts are copied from the Seth material?
Please, give us some more clues.
When I compare TC to other sources from TMI, it seems to me that Campbell in his
youtube videos almost solely is repeating TMI training stuff, specially content from
TMI's own articles, but also training concepts repeated by others, like DeMarco,
Buhlman and more, in their books.
And yes, I've read his MBT (and
been disappointed by it (http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_book_reviews/quotmy_big_toequot_thomas_campbell-t29753.0.html;msg304303#msg304303)), so if that book is a copycat
product could you tell me what parts, because the later halves of MBT are quite
fuzzy and poor on content. I can't really see that MBT would fit the Seth material.
If you would just state some comparison points, that would help.
Quote from: Pauli2 on June 05, 2012, 05:51:15
When I compare TC to other sources from TMI, it seems to me that Campbell in his
youtube videos almost solely is repeating TMI training stuff, specially content from
TMI's own articles, but also training concepts repeated by others, like DeMarco,
Buhlman and more, in their books.
"TMI training stuff" isn't original either. Tom's stuff (Theory aside), as Todd pointed out, isn't original. Frank, Bruce, Moen, Raduga... none of it can be called original.
NONE of what anyone teaches here or what you read in a book is original in any sense of the word. It's all information that is hundreds, if not thousands of years old. Variations on a theme really.
As long as we are bring up names , I dont see Jose Silva . I dont think he was in to a.p. or had a o.b.e. , but he was a pioneer in to self hypnosis . In one of his books he wrote that when he went in to the service (WW2) he was asked questions like " do you like girls ? " and "do you wet the bed ?" . He thought you could ask better questions than that . The thought porcess got him in to how the brain worked .
When I type the name Dic* Suthphen (*=k ) the forum changes it to Willy , this seams a bit silly to me , another forums changes it to penis . desert rat
Quote from: Pauli2 on June 05, 2012, 05:51:15
If you would just state some comparison points, that would help.
The seth material can be summed up as follows:
"Because physical reality is nothing more than a projection of our consciousness, we create it in its entirety, and can therefore manipulate it at will by using our thoughts and dreams."
Campbell's My big theory of everything is another name for Seth's My personal reality. Like Xanth said, it is all a variation of a particular theme that has existed in various literature for many years.
Regarding angels and spirit guides: if you have one, more power to ya. If you discover it was really a part of yourself, more power to ya. If you don't have a guide and do it all on your own, more power to ya. It's amazing to get that far at all. If there is a part of yourself that manifests as an external guide, it's probably for a reason. That's probably one of the hardest things in analyzing someone else's experiences, is taking into account it may mean something and have an effect on a personal level for them that you don't understand. Though for Monroe's guides, we got to see the unfolding process as he discovered what it was. It was beautiful and personal and surprising for him. We should all find those surprising moments. The best things are the things we don't expect and can't imagine. The life-changing surprises along the way.
Life-changing, not theoretical or philosophical.
Since my post was edited out and Monroe isn't here to defend himself, I'll reword things:
Quote from: Xanth on June 03, 2012, 22:43:23
...he never really understood even the basics behind what he was experiencing. And that sucks, because people reading his books as their first source for this information are going to become vastly confused. Such a shame.
It's implied that you know more than Monroe himself did, and that he throws people off. All I implied is you can say that about anyone, especially when they aren't here to defend themselves. If Monroe were here, would you have said that? If another person turned those same words around on you, how would you feel? Would you still feel the same about Monroe?
No, that's not implied.
What's fact is that I gave my opinion on Monroe's conclusions. Nothing more. You can make up some implications from it all you want, but you'd be WRONG. I'd have no problem discussing them with him to his face. I've had lots of discussions with people on my IRC channel about my opinions and their opinions. It's called "having a discussion"... nobody gets hurt feelings over it.
Lots of people here call me out on my opinions, I don't care, I either learn something from it which changes my opinion, or I don't. It's really that simple. I have my experiences and my own personal truths. If someone gets hurt feelings over my opinions, then they might want to question themselves... because that's where the problem lies.
I have been singlehandedly hand tied by Oliver Fox, and I am loving it. :-)
If someone wants to be a follower of Monroe, then that is their choice. I wish them success on their path.
Embrace,
I have never seen a guide or an angel in all my OBE's. I currently only believe in the macrocosm/microcosm (higher self/lower self) theory.
As for me I am a fan of my self , Monroe , Buhlman , Sutphen , and some others are just people that inspired me . I will see for my self . As to Monroe there instute says he is still running it even tho he left the phy. in 1995 . Some one might forward them this discussion and see if they want to comment . desert rat