The Astral Pulse

Too bad Narrow Path is gone. You two would have fun together. [:)]

Darkness Of Christ

Mankind in his insatiable search for divine
Knowledge has discarded all biblical teachings

Realizing that the strength of religion is the repression of
knowledge
All structures of religion have collapsed

Life prays for death
in the wake of the horror of these revelations

It was never imagined how graphic the reality that would
be known as the end
of creation
Would manifest itself

We believe all this chaos and atrocity can be traced
Back to one single event

We hold these truths to be painfully self-evident
All men are not created equal
Only the strong will prosper
Only the strong will conquer
Only in the darkness of Christ have I realized
God Hates Us All

Lay off the coffee...

he could possibly be allanon, spited by being kicked and back to try and cause some havoc.

or not. either way, he's just another fanatic so meh.

~kakkarot

"Darkness of Christ"?  I'm a follower of Christ and that term to me is an extreme contradiction.  I've always found it funny how those who do not follow Christ always claim to know the most about Him, or at least christianity.  In any case, False Prophet has failed to convince me of the error of my ways.  Good luck with that in the future, I have a feeling you're gonna need it!

Certainly isn't a positive outlook, no matter what your beliefs. Those lyrics are from the Slayer album 'God Hates Us All', the first track. A friend of mine at school has made me familiar of the album. It seems he enjoys the image associated with it more than the ideas behind what is actually said. In fact, he's sort of admitted to just that. But, if someone was to feel those ideas are actually in their best interest, it's all good.

This is the same kind of mindset those terrorists in Al Queada(sp?) and those overly nuclear-bomb-obsessed wankers in America have.

Do yourself a favour and leave. Nobody cares about your foolhardy and fanatical beliefs, in fact they are rather annoying.

~FT

Umm, whatever happened to freedom of speach?

I dont necisarilly agree or disagree, but it sounds like preaching to me.

Allanon was a radical fundamentalist internet christian missionary, FP is the exact opposite.

quote:

---

This is the same kind of mindset those terrorists in Al Queada(sp?) and those overly nuclear-bomb-obsessed wankers in America have.

---

I doubt you know the mindset of terrorists, if you can even identify true terrorism at that. Most of the suicide bombings in the middle east, maybe even 9/11, are based on religous beliefs, where Allah, Christ, whoever, "promised" passage into heaven while dying in battle against his enemies (even if its suicide).

So, its quite the opposite mindset of what your thinking of.

quote:

---

Allanon was a radical fundamentalist internet christian missionary,

---

It really is too bad that that is all you think of him as. Remember, he was one of you before. It seems that no one ever mentioned how he had changed and how drastic the change was. Figures.

quote:

---

where Allah, Christ, whoever, "promised" passage into heaven while dying in battle against his enemies (even if its suicide).

---

Just to be certain, this is not even close to a teaching in Christianity, but it is most certainly one in Islam.

Fat Turkey,

You're sounding somewhat fanatical yourself.

Agreed!  I don't recall any teachings by Christ in which He states that we are promised heaven if we kill ourselves in His name.

Its not a matter of which god, deity, prophet said it, some one said it and some one made it into a dogma, and people are killing eachother over religious beliefs. Hence, the audacity of organized religion.

As for christianity, christians / catholics condemed "witches" to die, while a few hundred years later, specifically the christians raped and brainwashed all of the first nations people.

quote:

---

Originally posted by exothen

QuoteAllanon was a radical fundamentalist internet christian
Just to be certain, this is not even close to a teaching in Christianity, but it is most certainly one in Islam.

---

I'm not absolutely sure, but I don't think even true Islam teaches this. I believe there are radical islamics that have bent the teachings of islam to suit their purposes just as there are radical christians that give christianity a bad name.

The whole "God told me to do it" bit has been used by many religions and cults. Seems to me a convenient excuse to allow them to deny responsibility for thier own deplorable actions.
- James.

i understand what false prophet is tryin to grab at. he's saying that organized religion in itself has become corrupt and will bend and stretch the truth to make their religion seem the only one, or 'the best' when in fact when you look at it, all religions (in my opinion) seem to originate from a single source and therefore, the basic core beliefs are the same, yet over so many years those who have led the churches change the writing and phrase them as how they see it should be, for instance in America, many people justified slavery with bible scriptures. Also, that many people are trying to find answers from others instead of searching inside their own soul for an answer.
I don't think he's saying that Jesus Christ himself is evil, nor God. .but the church that has slaughtered his name, the churches that claim to follow God and christ when all they do is turn away from it.
this has been going on for centuries, and not many have spoken against it 1. for fear of blastphoemy (sp?) 2. because it's what they've been taught and have never questioned it.
   I think Jesus died so we CAN question religion, so we CAN look inside ourselves to find the answer.
people shouldn't be so quick to judge unless you understand what the person is trying to say.
i think there was a saying that went something like :
   "Earth is filled with Christs and Buddhas, but does anyone really listen?"
the christian churches supposedly teach the love of christ, but they're the ones who are so judgemental of others. .try having a discussion with a catholic , and you'll see what i mean.

quote:

---

Originally posted by harlequin_star

i understand what false prophet is tryin to grab at. he's saying that organized religion in itself has become corrupt and will bend and stretch the truth to make their religion seem the only one, or 'the best' when in fact when you look at it, all religions (in my opinion) seem to originate from a single source and therefore, the basic core beliefs are the same, yet over so many years those who have led the churches change the writing and phrase them as how they see it should be, for instance in America, many people justified slavery with bible scriptures. Also, that many people are trying to find answers from others instead of searching inside their own soul for an answer.
I don't think he's saying that Jesus Christ himself is evil, nor God. .but the church that has slaughtered his name, the churches that claim to follow God and christ when all they do is turn away from it.
this has been going on for centuries, and not many have spoken against it 1. for fear of blastphoemy (sp?) 2. because it's what they've been taught and have never questioned it.
   I think Jesus died so we CAN question religion, so we CAN look inside ourselves to find the answer.
people shouldn't be so quick to judge unless you understand what the person is trying to say.
i think there was a saying that went something like :
   "Earth is filled with Christs and Buddhas, but does anyone really listen?"
the christian churches supposedly teach the love of christ, but they're the ones who are so judgemental of others. .try having a discussion with a catholic , and you'll see what i mean.

---

what you've said makes alot of sense, and it sad in my eyes. Because people always say thier version is the proper one, and the refuse too look at or see any other way.

I'm glad though there are many different beliefs and countries, etc.

this way at least not one religion or government can write history as they see fit.

it's a shame how someones words are written down many many years later in another language, and it is taken as the absolute truth.

then this absolute truth gets changed, and translated again..... how many times ?

then you have someone teach that thier version is the most accurate and correct version, and deem others as false, and ignoring history that does not fit with thier own beliefs.

after a while you got man living with dinosaurs, and faith over reason.

IMHO

quote:

---

Originally posted by False Prophet

Darkness Of Christ

Mankind in his insatiable search for divine
Knowledge has discarded all biblical teachings

Realizing that the strength of religion is the repression of
knowledge

---

does this mean faith / over reason ?

not accepting to learn or be open too new ideas or beliefs ?

quote:

---

All structures of religion have collapsed

Life prays for death

---

i have a book on prayers and such, and statistaclly (SP?) something like %10 of Americans admit too praying for harm to another roughly.

how about those who do not admit ?

quote:

---

in the wake of the horror of these revelations

---

this for me is a matter of perspective. i choose my own beliefs now, and it's not a horrible thing for me. but it is sad too look through-out history at how organized religion has harm soceity IMHO

quote:

---

It was never imagined how graphic the reality that would
be known as the end
of creation
Would manifest itself

---

again, is this about creationisim or is it about faith over reason ?

quote:

---

We believe all this chaos and atrocity can be traced
Back to one single event

---

does time even exist as we percieve it ?

quote:

---

We hold these truths to be painfully self-evident
All men are not created equal
Only the strong will prosper
Only the strong will conquer
Only in the darkness of Christ have I realized
God Hates Us All

---

i have never went through Slayer lyrics like that before.

what is equal ? i personally think everyone should be treated equal.

equal in what ?

and does "God" hate us all ?

I'm not even sure if I believe in a "God"

and if I do, I'm not even sure if i believe it too be a self-aware being that can have feelings of hate.

how do we know "God" is aware of us ?

"God" has not personally communicated with me that I can know of.

but "God" is different for each person, IMHO

I would like to specifically address LOGIC.  Your views are noted, but they are not profound.  You use the word Christian and then tack on certain dogmas to that term, such as rape and brainwashing as a Christian characteristic.  Well I am Christian, and because I have neither brainwashed, nor killed "witches", nor ever raped anyone, you are proved wrong.  If you say Christians, then your statements apply to all Christians.  Being that I am one, and none of your statements apply to me, why should anyone assume that your opinion has any foundation at all?  You could say that certain individuals have brainwashed, and killed, and raped, and claim to be Christian.  That would not be a lie.  However, you clearly refuse to study Christianity and how it applies to these issues.  If you had half an understanding of Christ's teachings then you would know that He did specifically teach AGAINST ALL of these things.  Christ taught ONLY peace, love for humanity, and charity for life.  If you in any way truly believe that to be a follower of Christ is to be a killer or a rapist, then you are ignorant of His message and have absolutely no grounds to be taken seriously.  Your arguments are based on your perception of Christians, which is not accurate, and such arguments are to be considered nothing but fallicies.  Evidence is needed.  I can show you countless sayings by Christ that promote His love and peace for humanity, and if you desire I will.  But if you want anyone to take you remotely seriously, then give us examples of Christ teaching that rape and murder is the Christian way.  I will admit that freedom of speech applies here, and you are free to say whatever you wish.  But there is a difference between saying something, and having something you say mean anything.  Do not confuse saying you are Christian with following Christian teachings, for they are seperate.  Those who kill in Christ's name are not doing Christ's will, despite their opinion.  The same applies for yours.  Believing that Christians are evil does not make it so.  Saying that you have a clue what you are talking about with regards to the same subject does not make you wise.  Untill you can show teachings by Christ that promote evil, do not compare the two, for you WILL be wrong.

Logic,

quote:

---

Its not a matter of which god, deity, prophet said it, some one said it and some one made it into a dogma, and people are killing eachother over religious beliefs. Hence, the audacity of organized religion.

---

Just don't forget about the hundreds of millions killed in the name of atheism. And it does matter which God as it changes ones views of any religion whose God says such things.

James,

I am not fully sure of what the Qur'an states regarding going to heaven for killing an infidel (I have seen people post verses from the Qur'an to support this, but I haven't studied it myself), so I'll let this one be. But I do agree with "God told me to do it" causing many to do things that aren't right. That covers both Islam and Christianity as well as a multitude of others.

harlequin star,

quote:

---

when in fact when you look at it, all religions (in my opinion) seem to originate from a single source and therefore, the basic core beliefs are the same

---

Nothing could be further from the truth. The reason there are so many religions is because they are very different, irreconcilably different, at the core.

quote:

---

Also, that many people are trying to find answers from others instead of searching inside their own soul for an answer.

---

Next time you watch the news or read a newspaper or magazine, ask yourself if you would trust yourself to give a good answer for anything. My point is this: humans are inherently evil, or at least are naturally inclined to do evil, so looking inside oneself for an answer isn't going to get anyone anywhere. Not that there is anything wrong with personal reflection, just don't look for answers to spiritual matters to come from within (hence my username - "from without").

To me, this is where Christianity is above all other religions. Every other religion states that man has to do some sort of meritorious work to try and gain God's favor, or to try and change themselves in some way. Christianity correctly recognizes that man fails time and time again and is incapable of ever being "good enough." Humans are in need of something outside of themselves to overcome the inclination to do wrong; man is in need of a saviour - God himself, doing what man could not do.

So, yeah, there has been a lot of evil done in the name of Christ, and most, if not all, of it goes completely against Christ's teachings. But this only serves to strengthen my argument - that even with the help of God to overcome evil, man can still fail. This shows just how much man is utterly in need of God, someone outside of himself to help him do what is good.

quote:

---

My point is this: humans are inherently evil, or at least are naturally inclined to do evil,

---

I don't see children doing evil things, I see them learning them from others.

So I personally don't think that humans are evil by nature, it's just that they are taught too be so. And it's our choice too not too be, and too raise are children so that hate and evil are not taught anymore.

quote:

---

so looking inside oneself for an answer isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

---

it has helped me. I have had times where looking at myself, my thoughts and my actions have helped me. looking inside helps me too connect too my spirit, which is a peaceful loving thing.

quote:

---

Not that there is anything wrong with personal reflection, just don't look for answers to spiritual matters to come from within (hence my username - "from without").

---

I personally disagree. I find that %90 of the answers I need and found came from within myself. I did not need too have been taught, I just had too "follow my heart"

quote:

---

To me, this is where Christianity is above all other religions. Every other religion states that man has to do some sort of meritorious work to try and gain God's favor, or to try and change themselves in some way.

---

is there something wrong with trying too be a better person ? to grow ? too evolve spiritually ?

I personally try too be a better person, not because a religion tells me too, but because it feels like the right thing too do inside.

quote:

---

Christianity correctly recognizes that man fails time and time again and is incapable of ever being "good enough."

---

that is your interpretation, who says it is correct ?

quote:

---

Humans are in need of something outside of themselves to overcome the inclination to do wrong;

---

I do not want too cause anyone harm or do anything I think is wrong.

quote:

---

man is in need of a saviour -

---

why can't I save myself ? Why cannot humans work together and save themselves? and who says we need a savior any ways ?

quote:

---

God himself, doing what man could not do.

---

what is "God"

How do you know that we are not all "God" when combined together ?

quote:

---

So, yeah, there has been a lot of evil done in the name of Christ, and most, if not all, of it goes completely against Christ's teachings.

---

and from what i have read it is people like that who changed the Bible too what they believed was right.

quote:

---

But this only serves to strengthen my argument - that even with the help of God to overcome evil, man can still fail.

---

humans teaches humans hate and violence, but that does not remove the choices that we can make too not be like that. we do not need God too make a choice

quote:

---

This shows just how much man is utterly in need of God, someone outside of himself to help him do what is good.

---

I disagree, I htink it shows how we need each other, too learn and too share and grow together.

darhhh. .i was gonna post last night, but me computer went all kerphabbled.
   anywayzzzz, in response to some of what exothen said. . .I respect what you think, i think you're wrong . .but believe what you wish
[:)]
also, about religions being similar. .i suggest you do some research and see what you come up with. .(if you're interested of course) such as going to google and typing in something along the lines of similarities/connections of world religions. .you'd be surprised what you find out.
   
"To me, this is where Christianity is above all other religions"
   ~Im curious. . .how is one religion better than the other?
also, i think you shouldn't come along saying 'this is right, you all are wrong" if i were you id research religions before saying anything against them. also. . do you realize how much christianity has chaged over the centuries? there was a time when reincarnation and karma were teachings, but the church surpressed them in 664 AD ( i believe) don't forget the time when kings ruled the church (which is why settlers came to America) and could pretty much do what they wanted with the doctrine/bible.

quote:

---

You use the word Christian and then tack on certain dogmas to that term, such as rape and brainwashing as a Christian characteristic. Well I am Christian, and because I have neither brainwashed, nor killed "witches", nor ever raped anyone, you are proved wrong.

---

The AlphaOmega:
I'm sorry, I was stating that it was the christian / catholic church that condemed witches, not every christian / catholic. As the same for the residential schools, not every christian has raped some kid after brainwashing him or her, I was merley implying that it was only the christian church, as opposed to the catholic church having anything involvment with it.

I also never said that every christian has gone out or raped and brainwashed anyone, nor did I say Jesus reccomended, encoraged any of it. Infact, I already know that he was a peace keeper.

What im trying to say is, that its the churches that are leading people into these things, claiming its gods will or some divine intervention. I agree with much of what you say, but my intention was not to make god or Jesus seem evil, just to point out that its the middle man getting the best of everyone.

quote:

---

Just don't forget about the hundreds of millions killed in the name of atheism. And it does matter which God as it changes ones views of any religion whose God says such things.

---

Exothen:
I'm sure that the atheists just didn't wake up one day and decide to start killing religious folk, someone had to make a stand.

Hi All,
Seems to me all things that bring power, wealth, and control over other people is bound to be extreme.  Humans do have Free Will and we have chosen to use it freely to distort all teachings in some way shape or form.  

This is not to say that good things do not come from extremism and control.  Many christians, while they may be misled about many truths, are actually good people who live by the Christ's message of Love.   So even within an extreme there is also a sector of balance.  Are we to deny these people their right to their beliefs ?  Of course not.

The Journey each of us is on, is tailor made for us, so we will come to clarity and see truth when the time is right for us.  Our right time and the next persons may be very different, so we must make room for all beliefs, whether we agree with them or not.  

We simply do not KNOW which, if any of the belief systems, is the more correct.   Although we recognize the similar Pearls in each of them.  The best way for you is the one that WORKS, whether or not anyone else agrees with it.  And maybe the best belief system is the one that does not cling to any view, but is subtle enough to be modified when experience shows the need.

Exothen,
quote.. " My point is this: humans are inherently evil, or at least are naturally inclined to do evil, so looking inside oneself for an answer isn't going to get anyone anywhere. Not that there is anything wrong with personal reflection, just don't look for answers to spiritual matters to come from within (hence my username - "from without")."

Surely doing 'evil' things is a choice ?  And if we are physical bodies animated by the Spirit we are, then all our answers must already be Inside us.  All that you will find outside of you that resonates as truth, does so because the Truth within recognizes the outer truth.

Love Always.[:)]

Dittos to Alpha/O's message.  Let's see....if "false prophet" is indeed false, then what he proclaims by deduction is that Christanity is the true and faithful way.  Darn, I knew that had to be it, because even Satan believes in God.

Seriously, if falsie takes this much time on a Modern Christanity site, I imagine he is under conviction and trying to seek to walk in the Light.  We pray for him.

Its not a matter of believing in god or not, its being told how to think and how to live your life based on someone elses standards.

you know ok o dont know what the first few messages are on but my view of modern christianity is this:

i feel its a lie but only in what people think. and to back up my arguement im gonna use how people say god hates this or god hates that. it is true he disapproves in stuff, but thats our nature and he forgives us. i hate it how people say god hates things that i believe is not true in the bible he says he loves all even his enemies.

I think the problem some of you have is that you base your views of Christians on the wierdos often seen on the tube.  Get into a real church and you might be surprised.

quote:

---

Originally posted by FreeFaller


i feel its a lie but only in what people think. and to back up my arguement im gonna use how people say god hates this or god hates that. it is true he disapproves in stuff, but thats our nature and he forgives us. i hate it how people say god hates things that i believe is not true in the bible he says he loves all even his enemies.

---

You're right FreeFaller. I've stutied theology at university and it's so flabbergasting how some christians doesn't really know what they are believing in and saying that kind of things. You're right as God is PURE Love. The sin is not an act but the rejection of His total Love. He even loves Hitler and Staline. It's why in christianity we are already saved ! There is a huge misconception on this point in many minds. Jesus has already saved humanity and God wants everyone to come back to Him, even Satan etc as He loves all his childs. It's only ego and shame that can prevent his Love to go through our heart and forgive everything. (I'm talking in the point of view of a christian here).

Yahweh is more than just pure love; He is also pure justice.   God doesn't love sin, and this includes those not His people, such as Hitler.  Sorry to bring you back to reality.
Children don't have to learn sin; they inherit it.  I see children sin all the time, including babies.  When they don't get their way, they cry.  That's sin, aka:  selfishness manifest in the flesh.   Get real.

onefromsomewhereelse writes

quote:

---

Children don't have to learn sin; they inherit it. I see children sin all the time, including babies. When they don't get their way, they cry. That's sin, aka: selfishness manifest in the flesh. Get real.

---

Children sin by crying for attention? Inadvertently reveals just how Christianity is so intellectually bankrupt, never mind morally bankrupt too. Seems that onefromsomewhereelse has maybe spent too much time in the oxygen deprivation chambers that go by the name of churches. The resulting lack of oxygenated blood to the brain can result in the kind of madness that sees a baby's instinct for survival being dubbed sin, the only way a helpless baby can get attention from its caregiver is by crying, a way of letting its mother know it is hungry, wet, cold or just craving some affection, but I guess that's a sin.

Since the baby's instinct for crying is God-given as is the dog's instinct to bark, the bird's instinct to fly and the fish's instinct to swim etc etc, it follows that God is the sinner according to the logic of onefrometc. But then if you believe Christ was born of a virgin and suffered and died nailed on a cross to redeem mankind of his collective stupidity and sin and then was resurrected in the flesh, well then the kind of illogic and insanity postulated by onefrom... becomes inevitable. One brand of illogic breeds further illogic in its train. It is all consistent with the absurdity and irrationality at the very core of Christianity.

mustang,

Babies do cry by instinct when they are hungry,wet, etc., but they also do begin to cry at a certain age when things don't go their way. Ever been around kids? Have you seen toddlers? You can tell them not to do something, and they'll look you right in the eye while they do the very thing you told them not to do.

Rebellion, selfishness, and an inclination to sin are inherent in all of us. How many people do you know who never had to teach their kids to share, to not hit, to not throw tantrums when they don't get there way? I already know that you don't know any, and you never will.

Christianity intellectually bankrupt? Hardly. It is most consistent with the observations of human nature.

quote:

---

But then if you believe Christ was born of a virgin and suffered and died nailed on a cross to redeem mankind of his collective stupidity and sin and then was resurrected in the flesh, well then the kind of illogic and insanity postulated by onefrom... becomes inevitable. One brand of illogic breeds further illogic in its train. It is all consistent with the absurdity and irrationality at the very core of Christianity.

---

What is illogical about any of the above beliefs of Christianity? If you are going to make such statements, please show how these beliefs are illogical before making such strong statements about them.

The Gnostic Christians had it going on, and the 4 Gospels in the current Bible came from Gnostic Gospels. You know why only 4 were chosen? Because the first Pope was a scum-sucking liar that wanted to control people, and those 4 gospels fit together in such a way that he could have a grip over people.

As for The Old Testament, most of it was lost in translation. See Zecheriah Sitchin for more on this.

So if the original Catholics and such were all corrupt punks, then what's to say about today's Christianity? The morals are good, but then again, we can get morals from every other religion.

I have no problem with believing in a God, but I don't think he'd be a fascist dictator like Christianity makes him out to be.

~FT

Oh, just thought of this.

People who use the fact that they follow a religion as an excuse to know all about it more than people who don't follow it are silly. I don't follow Christianity, but I've done some homework to realise that saying that Christianity is the One Faith that has dominion over all other religions just goes to show that you've been blinded and are no longer open-minded.

As far as I see it, Christians ask you to be open-minded about Christ, then you accept that yes, he could've been our saviour. Then you say yes, he was our saviour. CLICK! Open-mindedness disappears.

Lost my train of thought...
~FT

quote:

---

The Gnostic Christians had it going on, and the 4 Gospels in the current Bible came from Gnostic Gospels.

---

Although I have dealt with this in another thread:

First, the term "Gnostic Christian" is an oxymoron; Gnosticism is a Christian heresy. Second, the Gnostic gospels are shown to be dated much later than the four gospels and are dependent on them.

What exactly do you mean by "the Gnostic Christians had it going on?"

quote:

---

Because the first Pope was a scum-sucking liar that wanted to control people, and those 4 gospels fit together in such a way that he could have a grip over people.

---

You really need to read some Christian history, both about the development of the Church and the development of canon. I would also be wary of wherever you're getting this misinformation.

quote:

---

So if the original Catholics and such were all corrupt punks, then what's to say about today's Christianity?

---

First provide evidence that they "were all corrupt punks," before making such statements.

quote:

---

I have no problem with believing in a God, but I don't think he'd be a fascist dictator like Christianity makes him out to be.

---

If that is how you think Christianity makes him out to be, then you don't know much about Christianity.

I find it interesting that since I left the church and left the christian "religion", I've learned more about the nature and love of Christ than I ever did while I was in church.

So, despite my beliefs being basically celtic pagan, I very much believe in Jesus and the message that he had for us. So, would that make me a Christian as well as a pagan? [;)]

While I was involved with christian churches, what I learned about far more than the love of christ, was the hypocracy of man.

This is where I see a definite destinction between the teachings of Jesus, and the dogmas of man.

James.

To believe in the message that Christ had for us necessarily means a renuciation of all previous beliefs. It means a total self-sacrifice to Christ no matter what the cost.

As for hypocrisy, this can be seen anywhere, particularly one's own life. I don't know of anyone who lives exactly according to what they believe.

quote:

---

This is where I see a definite destinction between the teachings of Jesus, and the dogmas of man.

---

Assuming, of course, that you understand the teachings of Christ and are able to differentiate between them and what you claim to be dogma.

"To believe in the message that Christ had for us necessarily means a renuciation of all previous beliefs. It means a total self-sacrifice to Christ no matter what the cost"

Ah, now that's what the church said! I don't recall reading anywhere in the bible where Jesus actually said this himself. I'm sure a good theologin could tell me exactly why his words should be interpreted this way though.

I find the teachings of christ rather easy to understand if you don't read too much theological legalism into them.

As to how to tell the difference between following christs teachings and following church dogma - look at the lives of the people who believe in each. The fruits of their belief will be evident, and will speak louder than any words.

Regards,
James.

This is the message of Christ:

"Repent, for the Kingdom of God is immanent." Turn away from sin - selfishness, anger, greed, etc ... Turn toward God. Crucify yourself, with Christ, that you may find true and eternal life, free from the shell of existence, living in the Inner Sanctum, filled with the Spirit of God. In this way, in denying the demands of the "false" self, the "worldly" or "outer" man, the "flesh", and aligning your will and being with God, true freedom is found. Freedom from the shifting elemental forces, not being ruled by them, but rather becoming the master of them, not for selfish, magical gain, but to bring heaven to earth and earth to heaven. To become, with and in Christ, a "pontiff" or bridge - a priest, in the order of Melchizedek - in order to unite heaven and earth. "What you bind on earth is bound in heaven, what you loose in earth is loosed in heaven."

Be born of Spirit - "flesh begets flesh, Spirit begets Spirit." Open withing yourself the womb of your soul, in union with Mary, the mother of Jesus, in order to give birth to Christ within yourself, and find great joy (and great sorrow, because you will percieve the pain of the world).

I agree that the "Jesus Story" is a myth, but not in the same way as some. The mythos became manifest in flesh and blood in the Person of Christ, to reveal the mystery of our existence, our insoluable bond with God, our sin of turning away, and our way back to God. "The Logos of God made flesh." A visible sign manifesting the invisable realities - THE Sacrament, revealing the sacramentality of all that is manifested as Creation.

Enter into this reality ... but pride, vanity, ego, selfishness, greed, lust - all the swirling mess of the LIE upon which we build our identities - will not enter into that Holy Realm. That is the veil that was rent in the Temple when Jesus was crucified. That is the veil that keeps our conciousness outside of the Holy of Holies within our own being, and through which Christ guides us, by virtue of his taking that heap of garbage upon Himself and making a Way through. "I am the Way..."

I have found this to be true.  

Oh ... and I'm a Roman Catholic. Man ... I am SO controlled and manipulated, it's amazing! [:P]

"Every knee shall bow...."

exothen your response to my post is inadvertently hilarious.

You really see children as sinners for having tantrums and being demanding on one's attention? Well you are a Christian, so such non-thinking is par for the course. You think I have no experience with children, I have quite a lot actually. I worked with little children, I studied child development as a psychology undergrad and completed several projects on the psychodynamics of children aged 3 to 6 years of age. Oh yeah, exothen thinks children have to be taught to be good and selfless and considerate.... really. Actually they learn to be selfish, inconsiderate, and destructive from adults. They also learn Christian mumbo-jumbo from adults like you and thus learn guilt, shame, lies and fear and bigotry, what Christians call salvation. And thus the destructiveness and brutality is passed from one generation to the next, does not only include Christians of course but they are up there with the worst.

Christ actually supposedly said "until you become like little children, you shall not know the kingdome of heaven". I prefer spending time with children, like animals, unlike most adults, and especially those who consider themselves "saved".


exothen writes in response to my first post, without any sense of irony: what is illogical about the belief in a virgin birth and the belief in Christ's subsequent physical ressurection?
Apparently exothen wants me to show how these beliefs are illogical, that I must do so before claiming they are illogical.
exothen, because of his BLIND faith, fails to see that a belief in virgin birth and resurrection are prima facie illogical. But it's no good explaining that to the true believer.

He believes what he believes, and that is that, he is completely lost and beyond help, since he has abandoned all reason and logic and free-thinking. To think for yourself is the temptation of the devil, to the true believer.
On the subject of what Christ supposedly said, here's another; "by their fruits you shall know them". Guesss that gives the churches away then, that institution built on oceans of blood, torture, genocide, plunder, theft, annihilation of any other cultures and religions that got in its way, and obscene wealth.

Just in South Africa, the churches propped up apartheid, they laid down the "theological" basis for apartheid laws. In Europe it's been even worse, in Latin America too. You cannot understand the true history of Europe, its endless wars, slavery, tyrannies, imperialism and the 20th century horrors of fascism without taking into account the churches and the mindset of Christians.  

Most (not all) Christians would consider this website to be either deulsional or the Devil's trickery - which counts in its favour.

Christianity is junk food for the mind and soul.

Christianity is also sadistic and masochistic, if you don't know what I'm talking about see Mad Mel's Passion which its zealot filmmaker would fail to realise, really does reveal Christianity for what it is, but not in the way Gibson and the unthinkiing zombie public think. Mel's movie is a distorted lie riddled with fabrications built on a bigger lie. Christianity and deceit go hand in hand so Mel's fabrications are par for the course. Much of the criticism of the movie predictably misses the point entirely, they all assume the Passion is some grand truth, arguing over who really killed Christ, rather than seeing The Passion for the mythical tale that it is. Imagine arguing over the relationships between hobbits and men and elves in Middle Earth as if it were a historical truth, rather than a fantasy invented by Tolkien. People would think you had lost your mind, and yet people argue over the Passion and its related mythical hocus-pocus as if the religious delusion equates with historical truth. I am not necessarily disputing the crucifixion itself, though there are big problems there, but the religious mumbo-jumbo associated with it.

Christianity denies personal responsibility (somebody else "saves" me, I'm not responsible for my own life and finding my own way, it denies self-knowledge and opposes the enquiry into self-awareness and thus opposes truth in all its forms - it thus opens the way for tyranny and the censorship and brutality and injustice that goes with it. Helps to explain the history of the church.)

I could go on and on, whole books have been written on the subject. Literally hundreds and hundreds. I haven't even touched on the obvious contradictions in the Gospels, most of the Gospels and Acts is pure myth, fantasy fiction of the most puerile kind. Read them with an open mind (Christians don't bother, your minds are closed) and you'll see what I mean, the contradictions on the ressurection alone are staggering, and everything else relating to the life and death of Christ, never mind the character of Judas Iscariot and his supposed fate - BTW the "betrayal" of Judas not even mentioned by Paul.

Christianity is a FAT BIG LIE.

"If we believe in absurdities we commit atrocities" - Voltaire

Mustang,

quote:

---

You really see children as sinners for having tantrums and being demanding on one's attention?

---

That is not at all what I said. My point is the propensity in man to do evil, to be selfish and self-serving. Children aren't sinners since they don't know right from wrong, but that doesn't mean that what they do isn't wrong. Do you believe in the role of nature at all, or just nurture?

quote:

---

Apparently exothen wants me to show how these beliefs are illogical, that I must do so before claiming they are illogical.
exothen, because of his BLIND faith, fails to see that a belief in virgin birth and resurrection are prima facie illogical. But it's no good explaining that to the true believer.

---

Illogical - something that is not logical. Which means, since you made the claim, the burden of proof is on you to show, using logic, that the virgin birth and physical resurrection of Christ are illogical. Surely if it is illogical you should be able to prove so. All I am asking is for you to back up your claim.

quote:

---

He believes what he believes, and that is that, he is completely lost and beyond help, since he has abandoned all reason and logic and free-thinking. To think for yourself is the temptation of the devil, to the true believer.

---

I see you are ignorant of Christianity and like to appeal to ridicule.

quote:

---

Guesss that gives the churches away then, that institution built on oceans of blood, torture, genocide, plunder, theft, annihilation of any other cultures and religions that got in its way, and obscene wealth.

---

First, there has been much done in the name of Christ that boes against what Christ taught, I will not deny that. Second, you are judging Christianity by its abuse. Third, you are completely ignoring the good done by Christianity. Fourth, you are ignoring the evil done in the name of atheism (over one hundred million killed), as well as Islam and perhaps other religions.

quote:

---

Christianity is junk food for the mind and soul.

---

Again, you are very ignorant of Christianity. Not that I necesarily fault you, the Church does deserve some criticism. However, you are basing this on the Church as you see it, in the West, and not how it is in the East, where it started.

quote:

---

Christianity is also sadistic and masochistic

---

Straw man. Christianity takes no such pleasure in giving or receiving punishment.

quote:

---

Much of the criticism of the movie predictably misses the point entirely, they all assume the Passion is some grand truth, arguing over who really killed Christ, rather than seeing The Passion for the mythical tale that it is.

---

Again, the burden of proof is on you to prove that the crucifixion is just a "mythical tale," whether you mean the crucifixion itself, or all the "mumbo-jumbo associated with it."

quote:

---

Imagine arguing over the relationships between hobbits and men and elves in Middle Earth as if it were a historical truth, rather than a fantasy invented by Tolkien.

---

Another appeal to ridicule.

quote:

---

Christianity denies personal responsibility (somebody else "saves" me, I'm not responsible for my own life and finding my own way, it denies self-knowledge and opposes the enquiry into self-awareness and thus opposes truth in all its forms - it thus opens the way for tyranny and the censorship and brutality and injustice that goes with it. Helps to explain the history of the church.)

---

Straw man. Christianity in no way whatsoever denies personal responsibility, but rather shows us how resposible we are for our own actions - "a man reaps what he sows" - and that we need to change. Christianity does, however, show one just how utterly in need they are of a savior outside of themselves precisely because we like to do things our own way and consistently do things wrong.

quote:

---

I haven't even touched on the obvious contradictions in the Gospels, most of the Gospels and Acts is pure myth, fantasy fiction of the most puerile kind.

---

Again, for the third time, the BoP is on you. Please, touch away.

quote:

---

Read them with an open mind (Christians don't bother, your minds are closed)

---

Another appeal to ridicule.

quote:

---

Christianity is a FAT BIG LIE.

---

Why don't you put up or...

arguing against certain ideas which are the basis of christianity (ie, that jesus died and ressurected, that he performed miracles, that he lived) by merely saying it's illogical or impossible is really illogical in itself.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" if that one statement is true, then the rest of the bible is a breeze. and there's no way to really prove that statement wrong, so by a logical fallacy of supposed circular logic, it's illogical to say "this didn't happen because it doesn't make sense" with regards to christianity.

there's a reason why christianity is mostly based upon *belief*, because by definition beliefs are things which are neither proven correct nor incorrect. and since you can prove neither that God did or did not create everything, it remains belief.

~kakkarot

exothen, in your response you evade everything I say, predictably so. You have no answers to my objections, just Christian rhetoric and dogma that you repeat like some mantra. Well it's your life.

exothen writes re Christ's supposed virgin birth and resurrection

quote:

---

Illogical - something that is not logical. Which means, since you made the claim, the burden of proof is on you to show, using logic, that the virgin birth and physical resurrection of Christ are illogical. Surely if it is illogical you should be able to prove so. All I am asking is for you to back up your claim.

---

Actually the burden of proof is on your shoulders, not mine. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Muslims claim Mohammed split the moon, the burden of proof is with them, non-Muslims have the right to be sceptical of such claims. What evidence do they have, none. They also say they don't need any evidence, it is in the Koran or Hadith, that is all they need as proof ie mere blind faith is good enough, even in something that is prima facie
illogical.

exothen and others like minded will see the patent absurdity of this and the circular logic involved here:
namely it must be true because it is in the so-called holy book the Koran and/or Hadith,
how do you know the Koran/Hadith is holy and true?
because the holy book is the holy book, the Koran says so, Mohammed who gave us the Koran is the holy prophet,
how do you know Mohammed is the holy prophet?
because the Koran is the holy book given us by the holy prophet and the Koran says Mohammed is the holy prophet,
we have Mohammed's word for it and round and round we go.

The circular logic is obvious and we can all see it. But exothen and his ilk have one set of rules for other religions and abandon these logical rules when it comes to their own religion of Christianity.

Numerous pagan religions believe in the concept of the virgin birth of the favoured divine son, all this predates Chrisitanity and is a concept found in numerous religious traditions in the Meditteranean and North Africa and Asia. The ancient Greeks believed Zeus visited several young women in various forms, such as a Bull, a swan, a shower even, in order to possess them sexually and bear them children, brave and noble favoured by Zeus in their life on earth, even though unusual suffering and tribulations were placed in their way -sound familiar? Now obviously none of this is literally true and yet when it comes to the similar tale of the virgin birth of Christ, the Immaculate Conception, the visit of Gabriel etc you have no problem believing it. So why one set of rules for other religions and another set of rules for Christianity? Becuase it happens to be the religion you were indoctrinated in, rather than another? What if you were born in a Hindu or Muslim country? You would believe in Hindu or Muslim dogma, because you believe in whatever you are told.

Blind faith is all you have by your own admission in a dogma that is derived from pagan sources, including the dogma of the sacrifice of the divine son for the sake of the tribe and the resurrection, all of which occur throughout pagan religions that predate Christianity (there are elements of it in ancient Judaism - the sacrifice of the chosen son that is, the story of Abrahams's near sacrifice of Isaac is probably a remnant of this motif in Judaism which is in turn derived from very ancient Egyptian, Sumerian, Ionian and other sources), that are in fact the basis of Christian dogma and yet you reject pagan beliefs as superstition but staunchly hold faith in the Christian dogma derived from these selfsame pagan beliefs! Talk about irony.

On the subject of virgin birth, you do know Christ had brothers, most famously James? So was Mary still a virgin when she had Christ's brothers? If so then were they also divine sons created by ImConception? But they can't be because Christ is the only son created by Divine Conception. So obviously 'ol Joseph must have had his way with his virgin bride after Christ's birth, so she is no longer a virgin then, get it. Of course you may argue that it doesn't matter because she was a virgin when Christ was born (even though to those of us who value something called science we know she wasn't, she had a kid see?), but note how no mention of this is made of in church and Sunday school, esp Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, but also Protestant Church.

Here's something else central to Christianity that is completely illogical, irrational and blatantly hypocritical - the Passion itself. Every critic of mad Mel's movie misses the point here as they only can, because hardly anybody can think for himself. What does it matter who killed Christ, the Romans or some of the rabbis or both (we'll ignore the mythical fairy-tale elements of the Passion, a recurring religious motif throughout the Meditteranean).

The Passion and the associated vilification and demonisation of those including Judas and Caiphus for killing Christ is obviously nonsensical, illogical and hypocritical; and so the whole story collapses on its house-of-cards absurdity and irrationality at its foundations and with it the whole of Christian dogma comes falling down. What am I talking about?

Simple. According  to Christian dogma, Christ's sacrifice on the cross is necessary for the salvation and redemption of humanity or at least the salvation of the believers. So his killing is completely necessary, without it no Passion, no Christianity at all since that is what his life and fate are, this is what his life is about, why he came to earth - the crucifixion. Without it there can be no salvation for humanity, no churches, no Christianity, gettit?

So then his betrayal by Judas leading to his subsequent arrest and his sacrifice on the cross is absolutely necessary as is the mob's call for his death, which means that without Judas etc The Passion cannot be set in motion, it cannot take place. If it doesn't take place there is no Christianity. So Judas, Caiphus, even Pilate and the mob are necessary vital figures, for without them there can be no sacrifice of the divine son. And so they are the true martyrs, for without their betrayal and lust for Christ's blood - no Passion, gettit? They get the whole Passion drama started, they set everything in motion, and only by their betrayal and bloodlust can the Passion come to be and so Christianity in its train.

And so how can Christians condemn and vilify the supposed Christ-killers when they should be praising them, they are the true heroes and even martyrs, for without them the Christian Passion drama cannot be and neither can the Christian dogma on which it is based, no churches neither. Without the Christ-killers there is no redemption and salvation for humanity because no sacrifice on the cross by Christ without them playing their vital roles.

And so the obvious hypocrisy, illogic and incredible stupidity of the Passion drama and its interpretation is revealed, yet note that in the broohaha surrounding Mel's fantasy epic, all the even harshest critics have missed this central point. To be fair at least some of them will no doubt know about the point I have made, but they cannot come out and say it on TV or print because it is too subversive and offensive to the true believers.

And exothen I do not dispute the damage done by atheism/communism or the carnage under Islam, but that is an evasion, how does this undo the blood and carnage under Christianity? If I were to say that under fascism, millions died during WW2, how does this negate the fact that millions also died under the cruel tyranny of Stalin? This thread is about Christianity after all, not communism or Islam. But evasion is the only tactic you have, along with denial, empty inane rhetoric and the circular logic of blind faith. Hey it's your life, believe what you want. I'm not gonna change your mind, unfortunately - hopefully others here who are open-minded can appreciate my post, that's who it is for.

To quote Christ; "don't cast pearls before swine". Wise advice which I don't always heed.

Btw exothen and other believers, I love riling you people, it is no less than you deserve. I take your insults as compliments because of who they are coming from.

kakkarot,

quote:

---

there's a reason why christianity is mostly based upon *belief*, because by definition beliefs are things which are neither proven correct nor incorrect. and since you can prove neither that God did or did not create everything, it remains belief.

---

Agreed (it is also interesting that science can't prove anything either but yet much of it remains "fact"). The point I want to make with this is that although Christianity can't prove anything in terms of empirical evidence, there is enough that one can reasonably conclude that what is stated to have happened, did in fact happen.

mustang,

quote:

---

in your response you evade everything I say, predictably so.

---

It was not my intention to evade anything. Maybe you just didn't say anything. [:P]

quote:

---

Actually the burden of proof is on your shoulders, not mine.

---

You claimed that I have "BLIND faith," that my beliefs based on Scripture are "illogical." Certainly you must have some proof as to why you can claim such. At most, if you wanted to be rational about it, you would remain agnostic about such issues, but since you deny belief in biblical miracles, the BoP is just as much on you.

quote:

---

The circular logic is obvious and we can all see it. But exothen and his ilk have one set of rules for other religions and abandon these logical rules when it comes to their own religion of Christianity.

---

Now you have gone and put words in my mouth that I didn't say. If you want to discuss the issues, then at least address what I said, not what I didn't say. On what basis do you call me ilk? Reverting to ad hominem now?

quote:

---

Numerous pagan religions believe in the concept of the....

---

So just because there are parallels between Christianity and early pagan and mystery religions, Christianity is derived from them? You are getting more irrational as we proceed. If you want to go this route, please use primary source material to show definite links between Christianity and these pagan religions.

What do you know of general revelation?

quote:

---

Now obviously none of this is literally true and yet when it comes to the similar tale of the virgin birth of Christ, the Immaculate Conception, the visit of Gabriel etc you have no problem believing it. So why one set of rules for other religions and another set of rules for Christianity?

---

Who says there are a different set of rules? This is the faulty conclusion you have come to by rejecting Christian belief on apparently no basis at all. Historically speaking, there is much evidence in the way of Christianity that makes it reasonable to conclude that what Christians believe is true, whereas that evidence is in serious lack for mythology and other religions.

quote:

---

the story of Abrahams's near sacrifice of Isaac is probably a remnant of this motif in Judaism which is in turn derived from very ancient Egyptian, Sumerian, Ionian and other sources), that are in fact the basis of Christian dogma

---

Again, use primary source material and prove these links to me. Prove to me that Judaism derives this belief from other ancient sources and that Christianity derives this belief from any other source. BoP is again on you for making the claim.

quote:

---

On the subject of virgin birth, you do know Christ had brothers, most famously James? So was Mary still a virgin when she had Christ's brothers? If so then were they also divine sons created by ImConception?

---

Again, you are debating something that I didn't state and are making "hasty generalizations" about what I and other Christians believe. Of course Mary had other sons after Christ and so was no longer a virgin. Why not just debate the points I make?

quote:

---

Of course you may argue that it doesn't matter because she was a virgin when Christ was born (even though to those of us who value something called science we know she wasn't, she had a kid see?),

---

This statement is actually a little surprising coming from someone who is posting in a forum on spirituality. Can science prove any of your OBEs or other phenomena? Can you clear up this apparent contradiction? Maybe you don't believe in anything else in these forums and you just antagonize everybody.

I'll end here just put a break in it all.

mustang,

There wasn't as much left to reply to as I thought.

quote:

---

And so the obvious hypocrisy, illogic and incredible stupidity of the Passion drama and its interpretation is revealed,

---

Only in your head. What Bible have you been reading? Have you ever read a Bible, particularly the gospel accounts? The Bible is clear that Jesus died according to God's plan - nothing happened in the Passion that wasn't supposed to happen, and it only happened when it was supposed to happen. God simply used people who were sinful to accomplish his will.

Perhaps you missed some of the quote's of Mel where he stated that all are responsible for putting Christ on the Cross, including himself. God needed someone to want Christ to be crucified and needed someone to crucify him. Would you expect Christ to crucify himself?

BTW, as a side note, did you (or anyone else) read of a guy a couple of months ago who tried to commit suicide by crucifying himself? Apparently he nailed in gus feet (I think) and then nailed in one hand before he realized the flaw in his plan. LOL! He had to have the wood cut around the nails and then taken to hospital to get the nails removed.

quote:

---

And exothen I do not dispute the damage done by atheism/communism or the carnage under Islam, but that is an evasion, how does this undo the blood and carnage under Christianity?

---

I am in no way trying to justify what was done in the name of Christianity. I stated that it is an abuse of Christianity; so much so that it goes against everything Christian. However, this argument is used so much, but it is never put into perspective, nor is it brought into balance with the evil done by atheism and other religions.

quote:

---

But evasion is the only tactic you have, along with denial, empty inane rhetoric and the circular logic of blind faith.

---

*shrug* I never intentionally evaded anything and if I did, it wasn't worth replying to. As for who has been the most rational, I'll let the others decide.

All who are here realize the folly of the world as they attempt to find consel in outword shows of worship at churches and temples. The true light of the darkness is to be found inside. This is the Gnosis. The dark seed of our true masters who are to return in power and glory to reward those that have fought against the atrocities of religious thought such as the followers of christ.  They have lied to you in order to imprison your minds in what they call the truth. Reject the notions of the organized system and adhere to the inner spark of our true natures which are without fault and beyond sin.

Use the magick of yourselves to find the keys of the dark.

Never bend knee to any god.