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Hi,
I've read and heard you say on Art Bell I believe, that everything has its counterpart. There are arch-angels and arch-demons, demons and angels, negs and lower level good spirits, but is there a counterpart to God? Do you think there's a main evil being the rest come from?

Hi.
Ok just yesterday or two days ago timewalker made a post about how he never thought he would have an OBE, and then the next night, he had one.
I then responded in his "my first obe" post, that the key must be to post a message saying you never think you'll be able to have an OBE, So i said the same thing, pretty much as a joke.
Well guess what.
Right after doing that, I think i had my first OBE this morning. I'm not kidding.
Although i say i THINK because it was not wake induced, so its possible that it oculd have been a dream.
I woke up at about 10:30am because of my dog, and went back to sleep. Suddenly i woke back up again, but this time with a WOOSH WOOSH WOOSH WOOSH in my ears. It literally felt like something was filling my ears. My body was also buzzing, but what really stood out was the wooshing. Anyway, so I thought "Holy S^&t I know what this is" and started to do an exit technique (rope). The tough thing was that I was on my stomach. So i tried, and thought I had failed. So i tried to get up which was VERY difficult (I dont know why), and looked around and I was in a completely different room, actually it was my parents' room. But for some reason I felt EXTREMELY tired, so much so that this didnt even strike me as odd, and i laid back down and immediately woke up in my real body.
Pretty good for a guy who's been trying 5-6 years for an OBE with no success.

This worries me in 2 ways though:
A) I dont think I've been anywhere CLOSE to this in my wake induced attempts. I've had a moderate body buzz before, but not the wooshing in the ears.
B)I have no idea what I'm doing wrong in the wake induced attempts thats holding me back.

Either way though, now that I have SOME idea what I"m working with, maybe I'll have more success. Thanks for the tip time walker, it seems to ahve worked haha. Cya

>>My answer to this thread is that evil is not ignorance, but instead that evil is preceded by ignorance. So is most good. When ignorance is removed, however, compassion and wisdom remain. It is then that we can really start to help other people.<<

I still am not clear on how you guys are using the term "ignorance." Ignorance of what? Ignorance of WHAT precedes good and evil, and even if some form of ignorance does precede good and evil actions, can it be shown that this ignorance actually has anything at all to do with the action?

Atlas

Hi Gandalf

>> know from previous discusions, opinion is divided.. some say that good and evil are simply human constructs only.. <<

Yeah I'm pretty sure I see it this way.

>>For me evil is ignorance.<<

You think so? I don't think that's accurate. Some people know full well that what they are doing is "wrong" and LIKE that it's "wrong." Ignorance of what? We are all very ignorant really, of many things,  and I don't think this equates that we are all very evil.

I see evil as any coercive or aggressive act. Any act that interferes with the freedom and sovereignty of an individual. Murder/theft/fraud/force etc..
But I really have no proof that even this is true, I haven't really studied eithics and morality enough to explain it. For me, I work out my morality backwards from the goal. To me, the goal is a society of peace, freedom, abundance etc, and I think these moral "rules" are most helpful in bringing about theses goals. That's how I see it at least.

Atlas

>>it seems as though the ability to bend metal objects is more popular than the ability to move objects. at least by the professionals. any ideas why?<<

Because one is easier to fake than the other?

Cynical me again...

Atlas

>>One thing I notice is that there is 0 evidence That OBE'S and similiar phenomena do not exist. <<

Once again I will say that science is under no obligation to DISprove anything. There also is 0 evidence that there isn't a planet made of chapstick, but that doesn't mean it's not 99.99999999999% unlikely.

Atlas

Hi Mobius

Of course I think Robert, or anyone else, has every right to sell their goods and services. I own Astral Dynamics and I had no problem with paying for it. Nor do I think charging for it somehow "damages" a new-age/"spiritual" person's reputation, since I see absolutely nothing wrong with profit.

I'm not trying to bait anyone. I was just curious if Adrian applied that position uniformly. DOES he think Robert is wrong for charging for his book? No one in the new age realm has a 'monopoly' on anything so I doubt he was referring to it in that manner.

Atlas

Adrian

>>I would say though that I am fundamentally opposed to charging for any service that is for the benefit of mankind, its Spiritual evolution, the planet and all life thereon. OBE's Astral projection, altered states of consciousness, meditation to name but just a few, are all part of the Spiritual progression of humanity,and is the property of us all - or should be.<<

So Robert shouldn't charge for his books? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Atlas

Jeff

>>quote:
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"Sometimes patients describe looking down on their own bodies, and that experience is actually an aura or a warning that a seizure is about to occur," said Dr. Cindy Kubu, a neuropsychologist at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation. She has worked with patients with epilepsy for more than a decade.

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That sentence alone made me roll my eyes and laugh. It neevr ceases to amaze me what the scientific community will grasp at in order to explain the inexplainable.<<

Why is it unexplainable? Surely there IS an explanation for OBE. Trying to explain it in terms of brain reactions seems just as valid as explaining it through different dimensions and worlds and body doubles, as they're both on about the same footing proof-wise.

Atlas

Hi Mobius

>>When the information comes from these sources, I start to question, what are they trying to make us think?.........................something more in line with their investments?<<

And when this information comes from authors and institutes, what are they trying to make me think? Something in line with their books and $500 courses?

Atlas

Leyla

>>I personally, have done remote viewing with accuracy, and can line up friends, strangers and acquaintances around the block to attest to this.
How am I doing it? I dunno. But I know it's possible.<<

Ok. I am a stranger. Can you do a remote viewing experiment with me? What can we work out? What kind of experiment can we do? I would be more than happy to know OBEs were true, because I want to have one. But the evidence I see shows me that there is no way to prove they are not just lucid dreams.

Atlas

James

>>Look for the above article on the Astral Pulse main site under "Articles" It is quite fascinating!<<

I will check it out, thanks.

>>I agree with you on this point, but would Einstein have gained such acceptance if he set out to prove more radical metaphysical ideas? Nowadays unless you're Stephen Hawking or someone with his reputation your success as a professional researcher is based on grants, peer popularity, and ego.
Thing is, as conventional science researchers gain more credential within their field, their ego's can tend to expand<<

I think so. The problem is that there is a lack of proof for these metaphysical thing, besides anecdotes here and there. I am not denying that there is resistance in the scientific community regarding these issues, but as I've said in posts before, it seems there would be many ways to bring this UP FRONT in the public eye, if it worked.

Good/true theories tend to find their way in. I am reminded of that russian scientist, Dr. Podkletnov, and his anti-gravity device. He said a few years back he had accidently stumbled across a way to decrease gravity. At first he was laughed at because this is a "taboo" subject, but guess what? Boeing is looking into it now, and so is nasa, and he claims he now has a device that CREATES gravity waves. Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong. The point is, if there is something solid behind it, people will look into it, and not just men-in-black types trying to shut it down.

Again, I don't care at all about ego size, as long as their theories are right, and they are figuring things out.

Atlas

>>Atlas you bad man , somehow you joined the triangle of evil & became "Axis", hehe.<<

Haha...I know, I saw this too. Come on guys, I'm not THAT bad  

Atlas

>>Physicist Hugh Everet back in 1957 provided proof of his multiverse theory. Scientists still scoff at him for that one, but as yet nobody can disprove it.<<

Again, it's the job of scientists not to disprove assertions, but to PROVE things. I cannot disprove that God is a monkey or that the sun actually has a baseball at its center. Things are considered not true until proven, not true until not proven.

>>Did you know how this principal relates to the Zero Point Field theory? The subatomic "noise" that seems to be the very foundation that everything in the universe "rests" on. Can't see it! Can't directly prove its there, but there seems to be a lot of proof of its existence. How much like this are OBEs?<<

I don't see how the uncertainty principle relates to the zero point field. Although I think there does seem to be some mysterious force or underlying energy in "space" itself, I don't think that it's some metaphysical energy that is strong and we just can't detect it, but that it is so weak it cannot be detected, and only over the vast distances of the universe does it become powerful enough to cause observable effects. I don't see how this relates to OBEs though.

>>Tisha made a good point early on when she talked about the Big Ego's at work. Whenever you look at major theories or findings of the scientific community remember that there are big egos at work here, not to mention big grabs for big research grants. This will always distort the facts, because no scientist wants to be laughed out of his profession by his peers.<<

True, but theories don't get by on ego alone. Ego doesn't affect the right or wrong of a theory, only testing it out does. Relativity didn't get by on Einstein's ego, but because PREDICTIONS he made using his theory were true, and experiments have been done which prove its assertions.

Atlas

>>Axis: I'll explain to you, but _only_ because you so adamantly claim you are interested in knowing. I doubt the sincerity of this however, and suspect you are only interested in defending a wounded ego. <<

I am interested. I want to see what you mean.

>>If everything is so shifty on the atomic level, and we are all made up of atoms, then why do things appear less shifty way up here? Good question.
This is where enters the "shared" part of our shared dream. <<

I still say the evidence shows that it's actually because the forces are too weak to hold up.

What qualities make this a dream? If we all share it, what is the point of calling it a dream, because for all purposes, it is reality then.

>>Take this a step further. Everything in the entire universe could once fit on the head of a pin (pre-big bang). We, and our particles, were once all touching- and therefore we still are. <<

But I don't see how this MEANS anything. You seem to equate entanglement and such with some kind of hidden path to creating realities and spiritual interconnectedness that seem like big stretches. I don't see any evidence for this. I don't see how this allows our WILL to enter the equation anywhere. How is visualization affecting particles and changing realities? What is the mechanism?

>>You have to cooperate with the universe to get what you want. It's not all about you.<<

Well, in the sense that if I want to be a doctor, I "create" my reality by going to school, then med school, then interning etc. Action is different from visualization.

Atlas

Leyla

My point was that your quote "Electrons are just waves of energy, it's not until we look at them that they collapse into particles. This is the Hiesenburg uncertainty principal."" is not the uncertainty principle. Quantum decoherence is not the same as the uncertainty principle.

>>Because you can create your own reality.<<

Ok then, can you please tell me how to do this. Do you mean within the frame of physical laws? No matter how much I will myself to fly up to the moon, it isn't going to happen. The quantum effects you are talking about don't hold up on the macroscopic level. Otherwise couches would be disappearing here and there, and I wouldn't be able to measure the position and momentum of my car at the same time.

>>These scientists start with a false assumption when they think reality and dream are different.<<

Well, scientists do things like "experiments" and "replication" to "prove" their assertions. What you state would be pretty groundbreaking. Do you have anything to back it up besides a hunch? Quantum effects do not magically equate dreams with reality, and even the effects observation has on the quantum level are, according to present knowledge, unaffected by my will.

Has the unconscious photon detector created its reality?

The implications you draw from quantum effects are not applicable macroscopically.

>>Please explain to my why you are on this metaphysical board- if you are only here to sneer? I promise you, "logic" means nothing on the subatomic level.<<

I'm here because I am interested. There is more to metaphysics than wishy-washy new age speak and bad science. That's why I like RB. But when I see statements that are very arrogant(eg the entire scientific community has made a fundamental error that *I* have figured out without experiments,proof, or logic), and obviously have no backing, I say something.

Atlas

Hi guys. Two things here

Leyla - that is not the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. The uncertainty principle has to do with the fact that at quantum levels, you can't determine speed and location at the same time. The more you know the speed, the less you know the location of the particle, and vice versa.

>>These scientists start with a false assumption when they think reality and dream are different.<<

Can you tell me why this is a false assumption, and how you know this?

>>Because you can create your own reality. All of us can.<<

I just tried to take the reality where my monitor is a monitor, and create a reality where my monitor was an apple. It didn't work.

>>Electrons are just waves of energy, it's not until we look at them that they collapse into particles.<<

I don't think this really qualifies as "proof" that we make our reality. An unconcious photon detecting machine will also cause quantum decoherence I think.

>>Our reality is all just a shared dream. All of it. Everything you can see and touch and feel. Illusion. Dream.<<

Can you offer any evidence or logic for this view?

Now, to the original purpose for this post:

Patty - I heard Robert on Art Bell. I don't recall him mentioning any kind of demonstration? Can you elaborate on this a little for me? thanks

Atlas

Comus

I know you said no one should try to talk you out of it, but it's really hard to see someone in a sad situation and not offer anything.

There's nothing you can do really? What is it that makes you sad? I mean, if you are uncomfortable talking about it that's fine, but there are very caring people here and if there is ANY chance something can happen to turn things around, it might be worth taking it.

I had a friend who was suicidal once and I suggested he join any kind of group he could, not just therapy groups. Karate class, dance classes, bartending school, sports team, any kind of club. Sometimes just being around people who are having fun and are passionate about what they do can be contagious. It worked for him. Just an idea. In the end it's your decision of course. Good luck.

Atlas

>>Atlas, I'll try. I wasn't going to try, because (this is a quote from somewhere) "most leave through the door they came in." Meaning, why should I try to change you - - - you are where you are, psychically, for a good reason, and I could write ANYTHING here and it wouldn't change your opinion.<<

This is not true at all. It kind of bothers me how often I get this kind of "you will never change" response. That somehow a skeptic (which I am not really) is set in stone and cannot be changed. I'm just looking for a little reason and logic, to help me understand things like everyone else.

>>Yup, that's kind of what I'm saying. We have a "consensus reality," i.e., some norms we generally agree to so as to operate effectively together in time/space - - - but only generally, because there is obviously plenty to fight over, just read the news. For instance, when I say black, you THINK you know what I mean. You might be wrong. But it's good enough to get us through the day.<<

Right, but I wouldnt say this makes reality itself subjective, but the interpretation is. For instance, if I get punched in the nose, it doesnt bleed because we "agree" it does..  If I go blind when I lose an eye, I don't think it's because I agree to it This is an objective event that occurs regardless of how I feel about it. How we FEEL about it is different though, and subjective.

>>Reality is unbelievably, mindblowingly subjective.<<

See, what I think is that there is an OBJECTIVE reality that exists independent of observation. The INTERPRETATION of this reality is subjective, but the actual reality is not. Take 9/11 for instance. There are many different ideas about who is responsible, who is bad, who is good, why it happened etc, ...these are all subjective responses, but they are all responding to the OBJECTIVE reality of 2 planes crashing into the WTC on 9/11.

>>Anything you can conceive of is real, is happening, is now.<<

See this is the kind of statement I don't understand. What do you mean? If I think in my head that I can jump from the eiffel tower and fly to london that it is real? Is that what you mean? I can reasonably be sure that no matter what, if I jump unaided from the eiffel tower, I will crash into the ground with a 99% chance of being killed.

>>Once the human community fully understands and internalizes its inherent spaciness it will start interacting with the world a little differently . . .<<

Why? I don't see how understanding that there is space between my atoms changes things. It's not as if because I realize this, I will start being able to walk through walls, right? In what way is this supposed to change one's world view?

>>A. Pure faith. It's good enough for me . . . the proof is my life.<<

I see.

THanks for the response.

Atlas

Hi Tisha

>>I've ignored this thread for awhile due to the "scientific proof" tangent . . . I've read it all before. . . a lot of good points about things like "belief" and "perception" and such . . . but also a stubborn persistence on the part of some that there actually is "reality" and "unreality,"<<

What do you mean that it is "stubborn persistance" that there is a reality and an unreality? Or you saying there is no such thing?

>>and that if something cannot be scientifically proven it is not real. SIGH. I'm so over that . . . and I feel so much better now.<<

Why are you over it? Because it wasn't giving you the kind of verification you wanted? I'm not sure anyone here was arguing that the experience of OB is not real, just about what the nature of the experience actually is.

>>Reality is a funny thing. Perception is a funny thing. The more cosmic you get, the LESS clear it gets and the MORE clear it gets . . . both at the same time<<

Can you elaborate a little bit?

>>You won't get to that place by working at tomorrow's lottery numbers or dragging yourself into the dust with Osama<<

I don't know...I think it would be very "spiritually rewarding" to win 60 million and give it all to charities. There is a "reality" where there are starving children in desperate need of food. 60 million could go a long way towards helping them out, I don't see what's so non-spiritual about that.

>>So phenomena like time-travel and future-seeing are only natural, once you get in touch with the NOW.<<

How does understanding that we live in the present make time travel possible?

>>Knowing the above <<

Do you have faith in the above, or do you KNOW it? If you do know it, how did you come to know it?

Just curious

Atlas

>>"man should focus on what has been made for him, not what he has made"<<

Who said this? What does it mean? I should focus on trees and not man-made cures for diseases?

Atlas

>>Why doesn't more of the 5 billion people in the world know about ESP or clairvoyance or obe/astral projection? Because 95% of this world is so caught up in materialism that they don't even experience these things. That is what is wrong with the world today.<<

I know. It's terrible that not everyone is as smart and as spiritually advanced as you, isn't it?


Atlas

>>Only happiness counts. Maybe something (like having spiritual experiences) is very important and good for someone, but it must be bored for someone else.

The most important thing is trying to accept the priorities of the ones we love and live with their reality, even if we disagree with that. Sometimes, it's difficult, but that's the way.<<

Hi Clarine.

I think this is a very good point you've made. A lot of times, when I see people talk about materialism(ists), or consumerism(ists), or whatever, I can feel the arrogance in their words, as they look down distastefully at these lower life forms

No one knows what will make anyone else happy. You only know what will make YOU happy. Some will gain happiness living like mother teresa, some will be happy with their doors and windows shut never speaking with anyone, and some will be happy living in some kind of hedonistic paradise of money and sex. I think it's wrong to pass judgment on anyone setting their own goals and achieving their own ideas of happiness, no matter how much you disagree, as long as they are not hurting anyone else in the process.

Cya!

Atlas

Hi Patty

>>I haven't seen anyone here say that AP is real 'due to it's extreme vividness.' Maybe you saw that on another site? <<

I didn't mean that AP was DUE to its extreme vividness, it's that when I have asked some people "How do you KNOW you have actually left your body and this isn't in your mind?" The answer I usually get is something like "it was just so vivid! It FELT so real!" and what I'm saying is that is not proof that you have actually "gone" anywhere. In my dreams I feel like I'm flying by golly, but I"m not actually.

>>I HAVE seen lots of people intuitively recognize the experience as distinct from other types of consciousness.<<

Maybe it is. But intuition isn't proof, or science. Intuition might lead someone down a particular path to proving or testing something, but intuition itself is not any kind of objective test. Having a hunch that the moon is made of cheese doesn't mean it is.

>>I think we all recognize that it would be hard to identify a five digit number. What is your point here?

Why is this hard? What kind of identification test wouldn't be hard, and yet not easy to guess? I don't care what it is. A series of 6 basic shapes? Guess a card out of a deck? I don't care. The point is that if one can project into the real-time zone, like RB suggests, which is a near-exact replica, then it should be possible for someone to come here to my house or neighborhood and do an identification test of some sort.

>>It is entirely possible that there is multiple input going on in the brain during this experience - some of it may be 'dream' input and some of it may be 'physical world' input and I'm trying to oversimplify things for the sake of the conversation.

In short, no one argues that OBE's are exact replicas of the physical world. Yet critics always hold this as a test that is meant to somehow disprove them altogether.<<

I thought in Astral Dynamics RB said that the realtime zone is close enough to the physical to be considered a mirror almost?

I'm not trying to say the seeminly out of body experience isn't REAL. I'm taking issue with what the experience actually IS. Just like I don't argue that american indians of the past saw and felt the sun, but I don't agree that it is a god. Do you see what I"m saying? I don't think there is any evidence, besides a few anecdotal reports here and there, to prove that anyone has actually left or departed or detached from their body in any way, even in any kind of "double" body.

Like I said, if there exists some real=time zone which mirrors the physical, and someone could project into it, where is Osama? Where are a number of people who are at large, if the government is using this and it is real? What is behind that door in the shaft of the great pyramid? These questions should be answerable.

And people usually pounce on the fact that I haven't had a true-blue OBE, but like i said, I'm not questioning the experience itself. The tests I'm seeking would be the exact same kind I would do to prove to myself that I have actually LEFT my body in some manner, and not just having an extremely vivid lucid dream.

Thanks for the post.

Atlas

Haha Mobius I have returned!!

No, I was not out poisoning their minds elsewhere before they came here

Aphexcoil....I agree with you

I haven't had an OBE but "extreme vividness" is not proof that one has actually left his/her body.

To me, the defining characteristic of an OBE where you actually are LEAVING your body, HAS to be the ability to receive previously unknown real-world information through the OBE. There isn't any other way to KNOW that everything else isn't just going on inside your mind. My dreams feel EXTREMELY real, when I'm having them, but then I wake up and realize they were just that...a dream.

I put up a challenge here for anyone to come and have something like 50 chances, I don't remember exactly,  to get a 5 digit number right, and I only had one semi-taker, and that was Frank.

To me, another very damning thing is that despite the talk of governments using it, it obviously is not very successful. If someone could do this, Osama would be dead right now, as we discussed in a previous thread.

As Mobius said, we kind of had a thread about this already, it was called Reward for Osama/1 million or something like that. You might want to check it out

Cya guys

Atlas