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I don't think you can hurt somebody from the astral. Because the astral operates at a completely different frequency than the physical, it won't work. If your favorite radio station is at 106.5 FM, you won't hear it if you're tuned in at 1100 AM. As for communication? A friend of mine contacts people across the US, and says at best, they remember about 85% of the conversations they have. That's with a person who regularly practices dream recall. It all depends on the person's ability to remember visions from altered states, and the skill of the projector.

There are already cases of this I was looking for more evidence or methods. 

Also I've had the same thing happen to me, I shared a dream with someone but it happened as a fluke. I was wondering what method your friend uses to control it?

Would you please explain how my argument is invalid using logic instead of blind insults?


Is that because you're the murderer I've been justifying and you don't care to hypothesise the justifications of other cases of murder because the topic hits a little too close to home and you don't want your life closely scrutinized ?

And I think a few people argued against me because they have poor comprehension skills or because they form opinions around baseless assumptions and are too stubborn to admit they were wrong even though they didn't even know what they were talking about in the first place.

ie
-"i want to find out if I can kill people by using astral projection"
- "YOURE A BAD MAN IF YOU KILL!!!"
- "what about self defense"
- "YEAH WELL MAYBE SELF DEFENSE BUT YOU'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO USE SELF-DEFENSE!"
- "yeah I can come up with a few scenarios"
- "OH YEAH WELL THE COURT WOULD DISAGREE WITH YOU!!! LOL"
- "the united states doesn't have a flawless moral code and many people disagree with much of their policies and laws, and if you want to argue philosophically then it would probably come down to opinion but if you support self-defense in anyway then it could definitely be argumentative whether or not AP could be used as a just form of self-protection."

Besides the courts might not even disagree with me due to the "necessity defense." (I had to kill to survive.)

Possible of course but Are you able to stop a heart while not APing?
if people can be healed then they can be harmed/killed using your abilities
but how are you planning to do that?
lets say you found your guide you say "take me to (insert a name here)"
maybe your guide will agree with you and take you there and watch you kill the person
i think it wont be easy without a guide
or maybe you can convince him to do the killing for you haha
i really believe earth will be a better place if some people depart from this world

and you can fulfill the contracts , steal information you will be rich in no time!!
but this wont be easy :d
everything is possible because there is nothing at all
quantum physics proved that nothing is real
see for yourself

http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=UzEWX9nnXSkC&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=quantum+physics+possibility+wave&source=bl&ots=VN7NKgVJVB&s

ig=BJt9rm7prHFRz3JjfMqU5zq5j4k&hl=tr&ei=S0RiSomPK6HimgOCyf2bDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

chapter 7 page 47

reading page 50 highly recommended

everything is wave

wave of possibility!!!

so

nothing is real

many of you think that luck , chance doesnt exist

that is true

everything is a creation of mind

and controlled by mind

every part of everything can be changed by mind from the smallest to biggest

that is why telekinesis and other abilities are possible

mind is unstoppable because mind is free of the bounds of this universe

thats what i think

There doesn't have to be an observer present to collapse the wave of probabilities, just a measurement. They could set it up an experiment so that a machine can do it all for them and they can come and check on it later.  I think you're confused by quantum mechanics.

It's not like "if I stop looking at this electron it turns into a wave that is everywhere" it's more like "before I apply this method of measurement the electron is a probability pattern of positions."

[have to]

SAVING people? You're talking about murdering people!

I sincerely doubt there will ever be a situation where you find out about a murder that's going to occur, and eventually have a chance to murder the killer. And even in the 1/1000000000 situation, why do you have to murder the killer? Nobody has the right to murder anyone.

Sure, it's different if someone is standing in front of you with a gun, and you happen to have a gun to defend yourself with. I could sympathize with that, I'd agree with that. But you're referring to a situation that's entirely different!

It's the exact same as murder. There's no difference. It doesn't matter if you're stopping a killer, because if you actually do, by killing them, then you're the murderer, and you're no different.

If someone ever had the ability to find out about murders before they were going to happen, I would say try to stop in it real-life, or at least call the police or something - but that's even a ridiculous stretch because it would never be possible.

Still, I feel retarded even explaining this to you. It's embarrassing.

But you're asking HOW and not WHY.

Is it possible? No, it's not possible.

Is Pulsexx retarded?


Why, yes - yes he is.

I get the feeling a lot of the members on this board are below the age of 13.

Alright, I'll explain this by putting my self in the shoes of the killer. Let's say I threatened to kill someone and then they surprised me and killed me. They just didn't murder me, I threatened them and then they retaliated. If they just killed me out of nowhere THEN it would be murder.

Alright. You know, I shouldn't even be typing this because you've got the mentality of a 14-year-old, but you are real ignorant. You do realize that, in our society, intelligence and intellect ARE the things that keep us alive? You do realize that we aren't f****** primates with giant clubs bashing in each other's brains anyore, right? Or is that how YOU would like it? Man, it's people like you that are so bloody headstrong that run away with their tail in between their legs when the crap hits the fan.

Now, let's say you do get the abilities to kill somebody in astral. Trust me, weak people like you will wilt under the guilt. It isn't like your precious video games or movies, or epic tales of Russians using Mind Power during the days of the Iron Curtain. A very good friend of mine is an ex-commando of a military branch I will not name. Let me tell you something: this man is a very tough soldier, and there are times in his life where he starts crying like a baby. You want to rip people's hearts out; all my friend did was simply gun down terrorists in the middle east. But he's aware of how many families he has single-handedly ripped apart, how many little boys and girls he left without a father, without a brother, without an uncle, without a husband. He's aware of how many wives he sent to bed that night sleeping alone in a bed made for two. You think killing, even if trying to prevent a "future murderer" (which is still a load of bullocks, all the people's comments about karma are absolutely right), is righteous? You think taking away precious human life . . 9 months in the womb, the very first footsteps, the first words muttered, all the grades in gradeschool, the countless number of life lessons learned, the feelings of love, joy, anger, lust . . is easily explainable? Sorry, you can't tell the future, nobody can, so your Future Manson clause is illogical.

weird I can edit other people's post?

oops sorry I was trying to reply and edited your post.

:-]

Did you even read what I wrote? Calling my mental stability into question is a little childish and beside the point. All that matters is that morality is entirely subjective (created by OUR MINDS) and that the America's Criminal Court system is meant to give a structure that produces quick results to massive amounts of trials.

IF A MAN SAYS HE IS GOING TO KILL YOU AND HE PLANS ON FINDING YOU AND TELLS YOU IF YOU TELL THE COPS THEN EVERYONE YOU KNOW WILL BE IN DANGER THEN WHAT DO YOU DO? LAY DOWN AND DIE LIKE A COWARD?

Stop preaching to me about personal opinions on morality and especially stop calling me stupid when you woudn't even defend yourself against a killer because "it's wrong to murder people."

lol. Yeah, that's right, I lol'd at you.

And also this has NOTHING to do with using powers while astral projecting, which is much more important than your beliefs in how wrong murder is.

if it was the night before, when he may be planning to kill you then you are not in imminent danger as of yet, so that would still be classed as murder.

sure there are those that can project at will, the rare few, but they still usually do it whilst relaxed, and unless you can keep your cool when someone is breaking down your door with a fire axe then i doubt you'll be able to pull it off. you'd probably be better off staying in the physical, where you at least know you can defend yourself. even if you did manage to OBE in such a situation, chances are you'll not be able to concentrate well enough to pull off something like that, if it's even possible. no, just stick with your own fire axe, you'll have a much better chance of surviving if you stick to the physical plane to defend yourself.

btw im assuming someone gave u neg karma for talking about killing someone. sure, you may be saving the life of your family, or countless thousands, but never the less, killing someone is still bad however well you coat it with icing and chocolate sprinkles, and planning to kill someone is, probably in some respects, even worse.

You're just using the American Judicial's view point of murder though which is far from infallible, it's just the most appropriate for most legal cases. Mostly because if they made it alright to say, kill someone who said he was going to kill you then there would be a lot more murders where people could just make up stories about their victim saying that "they threatend me" etc... But this isn't to say that in certain scenarios killing someone before they can kill you isn't the right thing to do if the other person is the aggressor and is putting your life in danger and you are left with no other option beside terminating their life discretely.

The American justice system also says that abortion isn't murder even though it is clearly the killing of a human organism with a unique genetic code that only human beings have.

It just depends on how you view right and wrong. A lot of these idiots that say murder is always wrong would kill someone that was trying to kill them though, or they would die, rather stupidly I might add. Have you ever heard of survival of the fittest? Because of your morale stances you failed at something creatures with much less intellect are able to succeed at.

[how would you know what someone is going to grow up to be?]

I didn't, just for the record- anyway, you still haven't answered my question- how would you know what someone is going to grow up to be?  Would you claim omniscience?
Here's the thing:
If you are an omniscient being, and can somehow know what someone is going to grow up to be, that would mean there is such a thing as predestination.  And if predestination is true, then the people this person is going to kill are supposed to die.  If you are not an omniscient being, and if there is no predestination, you can't know what this person is going to do when they grow up.
So, let's say there were a way to give you the power to let you kill someone (I hope to God there isn't), why do you think it would be ok for you to kill someone just because you think they are going to grow up to be a murderer?

They killed someoen before and said they would do it again. It's seems rather obvious that logically they would kill again.

I can't believe people actually gave me negative karma for simply talking about saving people's lives. It's not like I made offensive posts or insulted anyone. Like are you kidding me?

i suppose it again really depends when that time is. if he's not looking to harm you at that time then it'd still be classed as murder.

What if it was the night before he was planning to attack you?

Also I would think some people would be able to AP in a serious situation because there are cases of people being able to astral project at will (a few seconds or a strong wish to leave the body.)

All in all it seems like people experience strong telekinesis in trance or dream states which is similar to the astral projection state.

Being able to levitate your self, or objects, or throw people to the ground is all possible biologically(according to first hand accounts) and therefore the human mind seems to be able to produce enough power to say, stop a heart beat or cause a blood vessel in the brain to pop (voodoo anyone?)

The question is do people gain enough control over these abilities to use it at that level?  Could you also combine your mastery of astral projection with your mastery of telekinesis to become a living weapon? 


I would like to think that people like Buddha and Jesus would be able to but there aren't many stories.

No you dont but there is a difference:

Point A: When a mother defends her children from an axe murderer with a gun, she is actually there, she REALLY knows that the guy (or gal, i suppose) is a murderer, whereas (as far as i'm aware) you cannot KNOW for certain if someone is a TRUE murderer before they actually strike. sure they may have traits that fit a murderer, but that doesnt mean that they're actually going to kill someone.

Point B: When a mother defends her children from an axe murderer with a gun, she is acting in defence, not purposely seeking out to kill the murderer. Therefore when she kills the murderer it's classed as manslaughter, where if you killed a murderer via method you're suggesting you would yourself be classed as a murderer (although sure any authority would have a real hard time proving that you were)

Point C: When a mother defends her children from an axe murderer with a gun, she is, herself, in danger. There's always a chance she misses or that the murderer isn't hit that bad, or he is and in his final moments he buries the axe deep into little jimmy's skull, and/or has enough strength to go for both the mother and her remaining child/children. The method you suggest may be the best way to kill someone without being in danger of death yourself, but it is absolutely probably the most cowardly way to kill. If you're going to do it, do it like a man should (even if you're a woman), with some honour and bravery, on the physical plane.


If you were planning on being some superhero or something then you'll have failed the first test of being a hero by purposely killing someone.

Also I doubt any of us know what the consequences of killing in the astral could be, be it karmic or psychological. It'd probably be best if it stayed that way. Even if nothing at all happened, the last thing we need is people who may actually be real murderers to spot a consequence free method of murder. No, knowledge like that would have to be forgotten until someone (or something) could deal with such a possibility.

btw, thats not preaching, thats just stating the obvious.

Point A)  What if the person is a known killer and has made death threats to you or your family and also if you go to the police your life would be in danger from his cohorts.

Point B) What if you are attacking in defense by taking pre-emptive offensive measures.

Point C) What if you are in danger but not immediate danger and you decide to take action during the safest time.

Point D) What if by you choosing to do nothing then innocent people would die.

Is this thread about having superpowers or about the right for a vigilante to murder?
I'll just go with the actual title, "Using telekinesis while APing":

I've read about a number of experiments with people trying to influence the physical while astral, and have seen very little evidence to support it. In one of Buhlman's books, he talks about balancing a pencil in the physical and then trying to move it astrally with no luck.

If it is possible, it's not something that the "masters" like Monroe ever decided to share with anyone.

As far as Russian psi experiments with stopping goat hearts, etc., it was made up and "leaked" to the US during the cold war to scare us into thinking they had psychic powers. We did the same with them.

Actually Monroe and Muldoon had recorded accounts of that exact thing.

http://books.google.com/books?id=JXVRbQzsUyEC&pg=PA163&dq=mysticism+monroe+telekinesis

I just can't find many other examples from other masters.

Also I think much of the Russian telekinetic experiments were real... the famous psion Nelya Kulagina died of a heart attack said to be caused by the high stress states involved with her telekinesis.

I thought we were talking about preemptively killing potential murderers with the aim of balancing karma... which would not work btw.

BTW, if you kill something, anything, even a murderer, there are still karmic effects. Karma cares not for revenge, which is a human personal emotional reaction. If a person is prepared to deal with the effects of killing a living thing, then well, that's fine. Just be prepared to deal with the consequences.

Sorry if you assumed I was preaching to you, not my intention. Do what you will. Go and kill in the astral, just don't come here crying about the consequences. 

Also, most of the people here do not project to become a comic book like "force to be reckoned with". Most project in order to explore themselves and the reality we seem to inhabit.

Violence just begets more violence... oops that is preaching! Ha! No, wait that IS karma buddy!

Who taught you about this karma system?
How do you know what is truly right or wrong?

If you kill a killer maybe there would be less killing so therefore violence is a successful method of decreasing violence. Is that karma?

Pulsexx:

Guess what I'm doing? I'm preaching to you about right and wrong. Don't like it? The application programmers installed a button with an X on it for this very purpose. You can find it on the upper right corner of your browser. You know, it's people like you that turn something as sacred as this into yet another evil plaything. Self defense and offensive behavior are two different things; it's clear what path you've taken. And don't give us the Bodhisattva example; if being like them were your true intentions you would have initially stated that. When the negs start making your subconscious life a wreck, don't come to us for advice on what to do.

I didn't imply who I would be killing now did I? You made your own opinions up about that which is surprising considering you don't really know me.

Like I said, don't preach to me when you don't know what you're talking about...

When a mother defends her children from an axe murderer with a gun do you go telling her how rotten it was of her to have used a gun to kill a human being?



Details people... details...



Also how do you know about this karmic judicial system and how can you prove it to me?


Buddha says you shouldn't eat meat, but what if you're starving to death... what's the difference if you kill a pig or if not eating a pig kills you?



You can tell me how terrible it is that I use psionics to kill people, but the fact is if I'm protecting you from criminals you probably wouldn't have anything to say now would you? Or perhaps I should just let them kill you, because that would be karmically okay by you then?

Anyway, can anyone give me stories or tales of people using their astral body with telekinesis as a force to be reckoned with?

Don't preach to me about right and wrong, I just want to know if I can do it or not.

By the way there are stories of bodhisattvas (the karmic ideal) killing murderers to prevent the death of innocent people.

Let's say I want to astral project to a friends location (everyone agrees someone should be able to do this right?)

What if I want to lift them out of their bed and throw them on the ground?

How do I prepare for something like this? Does anyone know about any stories or experiences similar to this?

What if I want to rip someones heart out or give them a heart attack? That kind of reminds me of the Russians using astral travel to spy on and covertly assassinate their enemies but I'm not sure if they ever succeeded in their trials.