Messages

You explain it better than me. Thanks, and you are right. I would like to simply ask what Islam teaches on various subjects. Is that too much to ask. .

You also say that Muhammed was the perfect man so you should try to emulate his way of life, this is why the Hadith is so important, they are samples of how he lived.

How about beheading those who leave your religion?

How about marrying a 6 year old and consummating the marriage at 9.?

How about killing the Kaffir to spread Islam.?

Do tell if I have misunderstood these things or defend these issues, so I can embrace your religion.

My question to you mustardseed, is

1) Why do you forbid the quoting of the Koran for a Muslim to support his beliefs with? Are you afraid of beliefs of the Muslim, and the Qur'an's self-evident nature?

2) Why are those issues pressing to you? Are you personally hurt by my feelings of Muslim superiority? Are you personally hurt that I deem Islam superior to your kufr(unbelief), and that the apostate is deserving of death? Are you personally hurt that Islam has given me the freedom to take more than one woman as a wife? Are you personally hurt that a Muslim man is respected and obeyed by his wife, as opposed to the utter disrespect of a woman to his husband that is present in kaafir societies?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_o7QnKAmUs&feature=related

According to the rules of argumentation I do not have to justify asking a question. My question is my right. Instead of turning the burden of proof on me please answer the question and support your beliefs. Whether I am jealous or not is a non issue.

Please watch this clip. I can assure you I am not jealous of someone having 4 wives, or having the freedom to marry children. To me this is not freedom.

I am trying to avoid the tedious cycle of circular arguments, so commonly used by fundamentalists.

Now on to the actual subject matter , please explain........

I find it amazing and quite significant, that while Moslem's always seem to be on the offense about Christianity and other religions, when they are asked to "defend" their own beliefs they run out of arguments.
They seem to prefer threads where they can attack others and get into comparisons with other religions. When they are confronted with their own beliefs, and asked to explain, all you hear is ......silence. Personally this to me is a sign of indoctrination. An indoctrinated fundamentalist always shies away from people who are confirmed, of a different belief, as well as people who have too curious questions and critique.
They simply have been told not to talk to people who are critical of Islam. They cannot  handle a normal conversation, because they are exposed for what they really are and what they believe and all the false fronts are riped away. Very sad.....but it makes sense and confirms my expectations.

Hi Jez

We are all here what would you like to talk about. Most of the old timers have had CEs Conscious exits for years some less frequent, all have something to contribute. Wroite a bit more in detail what the problem seem to be. Maybe include your reasons for wanting to learn this, just curious.

Regards Mustardseed

You have to do some serious reading, my friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

Yes you are right he should, but this is the very problem with Osama and his friends,  they will NOT read something written about Islam, unless it has been written by a Muslim. They simply dismiss it. It is part of their culture to mistrust any information that does not come from their Immam or whoever they consider authorities. They have a well developed persecution complex and believe in all sort of far fetched conspiracy theories. This is also why they are so easy to lead astray. I know that there are well educated Muslims, BUT as a rule, and most certainly in Islamic countries, Muslims are uneducated, simple and ......as a result rather uncivilized. This was the discussion and seeing Osama has left the  building he confirms it.

Funny isn't it that when a Muslim realities that he most likely cannot convert a person, he just goes away. No need to argue doctrine, no need to explain no need for sugarcoating the message. He just goes on to whatever he considers a better promising victim. The aim is not to defend the faith, but only to win and deceive potential converts. 

Hi Guys
Yes this thread is dead, sorta, I have not been channeling for a long time. If you look through the thread you will see why. (besides being accused of Copying)
In any case It is closed , unless something special comes up

Sorry


Regards Mustardseed

For years I have had experience with Islam, in countries under Islamic rule. I have seen and felt how Islam is lived in a country professing to follow its teachings and has been deeply disillusioned. It has given rise to a series of questions and I have yet to meet anyone who is able to answer the many pressing questions about the doctrines in the book.

I am hoping that Muslims will answer this post and explain. Please do not quote the Koran as any source of proof for various statements but try to show the greater scheme of things. I believe that Islam is a very sinister Religion and that it is by large hidden from the average Muslim.

Mostly the ones defending Islam tries to discredit Christianity, but as we all know 2 wrongs does not make 1 right, instead try to explain the following doctrines and behavior of your fellow Muslims, in regards to these issues.

Death penalty for apostasy

Multiple wives and the superiority of the man over his wife (divorce proceedings)

Jihad, the waging of war with the Kuffir to reclaim former dominance


There are a few others they will come later

Regards Mustardseed

I could not agree more. It is actually very interesting to note that the way Muslims argue "religion" is so different from the way agnostics, Christians or atheists etc do the same thing. It stems from the fact that most Muslims do not study their Koran, much less the Hadith as do others. It is too complex, and they have been told that it cannot be understood without reading it in Arabic, or knowing the Hadith as the back of your hand. There is no tradition in Islam for an individual to study these books, as we know "study", instead they are read as poetry..

Most, if not all, instead use various help sites, set up by Imams and Mullahs etc, to answer issues that come up, rather than search themselves. Basically they don't know their own scriptures, and when confronted with THEIR OWN BELIEFS they quickly resort to abuse or religious rhetoric, rather than fact. I have yet to find a Muslim who knew his own doctrines, better than I do.

This is very much like the Catholic church before the reformation. This is how the church of its day kept a thumb on its members, and it resulted in various atrocities, committed in the name of God, perpetrated by people who thought they were doing God a favor.  After the first Bible was translated by Luther all that changed.

If western Muslims, living in the Umma would only bother to read their own book, they would see that it is indeed very violent and barbaric, they would then have to choose between following its doctrines, or rejecting it and choosing democracy with all its faults and weak points. This would however be a big and very traumatic social faux pas, because there is only one kind of person a fundamentalist Muslim hates MORE than the Kaffir (infidel) and that is a apostate, one who has left Islam. There is death penalty for apostasy in several countries, and in the west there is "social death penalty". You become an outcast. 

I believe that there are thousands of Muslims in the west who are going along just for these social reasons, and would much rather live in a western world with its basic law and order, rather than in a Sharia state. You seldom hear anything from them.

Besides that, Osama is just a young boy, obviously attracted to the strong image and attitude of superiority, so readily portrayed by the Imams. Religious fervor has always given rise to youngsters, who take things to the extremes. He will grow and hopefully learn, that much of the information he is being given, in nothing more than fiction, urban legends and lies, dooms day conspiracies invented to control the masses.

During the Cartoon crisis, a team of Danish and Mideastern Imams, living in Denmark, traveled to the Mideast, bringing with them cartoons showing Muhammad having sex with a pig. This was a fabrication. They spread rumors that the Danish government had laws encouraging Danes to marry animals cows and pigs etc etc. These lies were spread throughout the Mideast through the Internet, and various Arabic tv channels, and was the fuel that set all the Muslims off on their rampage.This has later been admitted, but by the time it finally came out, the damage was done. These stories take a life of their own and Muslims are naturally more apt to believe a fellow Muslim and certainly an Immam, rather than a Kaffir.

Regards Mustardseed   

Dear AS
I understand how you feel, a unpleasant discussion such as this can be taxing, however.........sometimes it is necessary. Not in order to win an argument, thats irrelevant, but in order to shine light on a subject. There are many people who read these posts and if Osama is left unchallenged his point of view will slowly become mainstream. This is how propaganda works. Tell a lie often enough and someday it will be believed.

The fact is that Islam is a barbaric social system based on a pseudo religion, hailing principles and laws dating back to the first century. It is religious fascism it its finest form pure and undiluted. It mandates death by beheading to those who leave its ranks, suppresses women in the most horrid ways, and calls for Jihad to usher its priesthood into leadership of the world, making all the world Muslim. This in not my free fantasy but has been confirmed even by Osama who believes in these principles.

It is true that it would be easier to just retreat into our own lives and realities, but if we do we leave the "battlefield" to him and his cronies.

I saw a National Geographic program last night. It was a look at how Islam was winning the information war it was very thought provoking.

Here is a quote from a blogger on this subject. He is called SchrinkWrapped:

One lamentable problem thus far in the Global War on Terror, or the war on Islamofascism, or the war on expansionary Islam, is that the West has not yet found a vocabulary to describe our enemies. In point of fact, our enemies have done a much better job of hijacking our language and using it for its own purposes than we have in being clear about who we are fighting and what we are fighting for. Until we can agree on who the enemy is, we will have trouble waging a successful information war. Our enemies have an interest in making this a war between the decadent Western infidels and the Muslim world, the Umma. Unless we desire the worst case scenarios to come to fruition, our interest should be in splitting the most violent, those most willing to use force against us, from the great mass of non-violently antipathetic and neutral, Muslims.

I will leave you with this famous quote from Martin Niemuller, the German pastor who outspokenly opposed the Nazis and suffered in concentration camps. In a 1959 seminary address in Atlanta, Ga., Niemuller said,

"First they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists, and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me."

Regards Mustardseed

PS as far as a peaceful respectful discussion, I am very much for that, however you will find that our little friend is not. It is simply not an option. In his opinion there can be no serious discussion, no respect, no love and most certain no friendship or tolerance, not unless you convert to Islam that is. Is that an option........? I think.........NOT

PPS
Your remarks are becoming faint Osama. Instead of actually taking part in this exchange and prove to me, and whoever reads this, that the average Muslims are more civilized than the average westerner, which was your grand unsupported claim, you have resorted to calling me stupid..........how original. Then you further state that the Mahdi is not a prophet, something peripheral, well thank you, I stand corrected. He is supposed to be a direct descendant of your prophet Muhammad, and everyone is waiting for him. The last Immam. Instead why don't you confirm or deny that you are waiting for this mythological figure, to lead you all into world dominance. You are waiting for him ..........right, that was my point. Personally I am not convinced but maybe you can explain. The world is listening !!!!!!

I think Osama has decided that he will ignore us. This is often the way Muslims engage in a debate. At first they are all over you with religious dogma, making various lofty claims about being more civilized and educated. Then after they have been forced to look at the facts, they resort to abusive language, and then lastly they threaten hellfire. They are simply not able to document their cause, nor are they able to actually debate an issue. This is not taught in Islam, in Islam only religious rhetoric, and flowery allegories and language is needed to convince people, this is due to the heavy indoctrination of Muslims by various Imams and Mullahs. All their answers are basically copied and pasted from various help sites run by their Imams......if they say this you say this etc. Its pretty funny really, as they often "forget" to list their source, and want to be seen as "wise" and educated. Religious hypocrisy.  Lastly after they have realised they have neither the intellect or skill, much less facts to prove their grand claims, they ignore you and go somewhere shouting Allah is great,  from some other soap box.

Osama is waiting for the Mahdi, the last prophet that shall make all the world Muslim....and set up the Kalifat.......arn't you Osama. I know you are reading this my little friend, but you are probably not is interested in discussing with a Kufr, who is going to answer you back, no one to convert.

And now, to change the subject:  I better be hot  in it, that's all I'm going to say.   

well that depends on, actually well uhhhhh....its like.....,you see oh forget it...................Ill make you hot

If you notice, Osama is the one who claims to know that you and all infidels are going to hell, while he and the rest of his Muslim brothers are going to heaven. In Islam the absolutely surest way to get to heaven is to die as a martyr, so all the Palestinian suicide bombers who blow themselves up and kill innocent children and adults are the first to get in.

I think that many people especially here on the AP and in the community in general, wants so bad to find common ground with Islam, but the problem is that Islam wants no part in that. Islam as a religion and a political system will not be satisfied till all of the world belongs to Dar al Islam the house of Islam. (peace) and since we all know that civilized countries will NEVER allow sharia law to rule, all that is left is war. The frustrated attempts to dominate, by a religion, and followers of a justice system, that is some 400 years too late. The world has moved on while Islam still lives in the 1600s, a barbaric time, that fits a barbaric religion and system.

This war, Jihad is waged physically and spiritually. This series of posts is Osamas personal Jihad, his struggle. It is his attempt as a teenager to spread Islam, and there will be no compromise. 

Sometimes you have to accept that you cannot have peace even though you want it. How can you make peace with those who wants no peace.

You believe that he was a prophet, nothing else. You do not believe he was the son of God as Christians do

OH MY GOODNESS I dont think I have laughed so long and so hard for a long time. Thanks for sharing that It hit right in the center as I have actually been working on a novel for .....you guessed it 3 years. What are the odds. My novel is about my time in Afghanistan, up to the present day, and you are all in it.

You may not be prohibited in treating people kindly and justly if they have not yet decided where they stand regarding Islam, but if people have rejected your religion, you are commanded to not only disrespect them but also to attack them, physically if you can, or with words if you cannot get to them, like you do here.

You cannot, nor are you allowed to be kind just and courteous to people who voice opposition to Islam. You said in a post a while ago that you have no problem with executing (by beheading) anyone who commits apostasy, leaves Islam. You and all your brothers who hold the same views, are in my definition teetering on the brink of insanity.

You have stated you believe in Jihad.

and when you say:

im not prohibited from treating you kindly or justly, or being courteous regarding your feelings, but how can i respect your beliefs, that are disrespects to my Lord?

People reply:

Thank you, thats all I need to know.

We are the Kufr Osama!, if I had the same attitude about your religion, that you have about mine, I would be in trouble with the media, and maybe even get a warning from the AP. If I called your Prophet lets say a perverted child abuser, a false prophet and a warmongering terrorist, I would most likely be sternly corrected by my fellow Kuffir brothers and sisters.

Isn't it ironic. I can prove from your own scriptures that all these statements are true, yet in the name of political wishy washy correctness, I am in various forums silenced and condemned, and you are believed and allowed to speak.  Muslims such as yourself support the burning down of embassies, to protest, against being called a violent Religion, (go figure) sympathize openly with your name brother, an insane mass murderer and yet you have, with the help of Taqyiia managed to get sympathy for your cause, using our own beliefs in tolerance, freedom of religion, something you do not even agree with, as your "way in"

I pity you, and I pity the world because it is just the beginning. I am personally against violence, be it from the wacko mass murderer Bush, or the counterpart Osama, but you are not. You believe in the Kalifat, wants to instigate Sharia law, and you will willingly plunge the world into destruction to prove it, all along thinking you do Gods service.

You are so wrong.

Yes that is exactly what he believes, though he will probably try to soft soap you, using the doctrine of Taqyiaa which I explained below. It is one of the many reasons it is so hard for the average westerner to see through this veil, this deception. They do not believe that a religion could ever sanction or promote lying. Its just so alien to us.

You and I and the rest of us are according to the Koran, only the Kufr or the kaffir and are in essence no different from a cow or a pig. We are by nature liars, and the Muslims consider themselves to be by nature truthful.

Being truthful or being a liar is not a personal thing in Islam. A Muslim is a truthful man because he confesses that there is only one God and Muhammad is his prophet, a infidel is a liar because he denies this.

The Arabic he wrote translates into:

"but maligned lying (comes from) those who do not believe the revelations of Allah, and those are the liars, (it comes )from Kafr after his faith in God (which he) only hate(s), (the) heart reassuring faith(,) but they (instead) explain disbelief (and will receive) breaststroke (forward, aggressive) anger from God and have a great punishment.

I have put a few words in () to change the actual translation to readable English.

This is why I have asked that we examine the scriptures and what they actually teach rather than the actions of those who claim to follow them, be they Christians Jews or Muslims. This is however a heresy to osama,  who believes Islam and Islamic countries, are far more civilized than the west.

Here is a quote from Osama from below:

First of all, Mustard, the prohibition of sarchasm is towards fellow believers. I am permitted to insult and degrade individuals like yourself, who's disbelief is clear, and opposition to Islam is apparent.

Think about that .........quite thought provoking. If he had been a CHRISTIAN displaying such sentiments he would have been banned from AP a LONG time ago, but it seems that since he is a Muslim and we are all supposed to be so tolerant, he is allowed to spew out such venom and hate propaganda and stand unchallenged. Much like society at large Political correctness is still rearing its ugly head sometime, here and IRL as well.

First of all, Mustard, the prohibition of sarchasm is towards fellow believers. I am permitted to insult and degrade individuals like yourself, who's disbelief is clear, and opposition to Islam is apparent.

As for your dumb idea of bringing up the topic of lies, the permitted lies are the lies to one's wife (which would be a white lie to one's wife in english cultural terms), a lie for rectification between people, and a lie during war. However, during war one can still not break a  treaty, and some forms of lies are still impermissible.

Your pathetic existence abhors me. But I feel bad for you more than I hate you, for, I know you are just paving a path for yourself into Hellfire.

Well I guess I will have to take my chances about hell fire. First of all .....as you say, could you please show me a few suras that permit you to insult and degrade individuals like me. I would be interested in heading these parts.

As far as my dumb idea of Islam permitting Lies toward unbelievers, it is obvious that all Muslims are at war with the Kaffir, so it is permitted to lie to officials, police, bosses, and other infidels if you live in a country that is not ruled by Sharia.

You may also lie to your wife at will if it to make sure she is not hurt, as in covering up affairs etc. In actuality Muslims in the west have another principle that they use namely that of "Taqiyya"......

.............which literally means: "Concealing, precaution, guarding." It is employed in disguising one's beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving, vexing and confounding with the intention of deflecting attention, foiling or pre-emptive blocking. It is currently employed in fending off and neutralising any criticism of Islam or Muslims.

Falsehoods told to prevent the denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned in the Qur'an and Sunna, including lying under oath in testimony before a court, deceiving by making distorted statements to the media such as the claim that Islam is a "religion of peace". A Muslim is even permitted to deny or denounce his faith if, in so doing, he protects or furthers the interests of Islam, so long as he remains faithful to Islam in his hear

I have cut and pasted the above explanation and translation from a site on the net.

This is why I call you liars, and I call Islam a religion that sanctions and commands lying.

I do find it amusing that when you can no longer support your own claims, and are exposed for being a uncivilized liar, you start threatening with hell fire. So sad, and so ignorant and infantile.
Very typical of many yet not all Muslims.

This issue above is unknown to many westerners and they still cling to the belief that Muslims are good lawabiding people, because they claim to be. This is why they get so surprised when young western Muslims "suddenly" turn radical. They are not aware that they have been deceived on an ongoing basis.
If what is happening in this discussion had been happening face to face, you would most likely resorted to violence or aggression , like most Muslims do.

All that points to a lack of civility.

well, good luck with your pathetic existence

You see Osama this is where you and I differ. You say you live by a book of rules that you follow, and that following these rules makes God like you better than me.Yet you are a hypocrite who claims one thing and does another.

Let me teach you a few things. First of all, Sarcasm is forbidden in Islam, did you know that.

15) It is of the adab of the high path of Islam to completely abandon and shun guile, deceit, scornfulness, or sarcasm because these are unlawful. Allah Most High says, "O you who believe, let no men scorn other men, for they might well be better than they are. And let no women scorn other women, for they might well be better than they. And do not find fault with one another, or give each other insulting nicknames" (Qur'an 49:11).

Do you not find it odd that I a infidel, am the one to steer you on to the proper path. Mind your words my little friend, for in words, you show what you really are.

This is what I have against you who follow Islam and call yourselves Moslem. You are hypocrites and you are liers. Its that simple. How can you build a good society with and among people who are liers and hypocrites. You cannot, it has never been done and it will never happen. No government can ever exist in peace and no great civilization can ever be built on a lie. It is simply not possible. It defies common sense. It would mean that you would never know where you had people, it would and does create injustice and confusion on a massive scale. This is the very reason the Califate will never be a reality, and this is the reason the Muslim world ceased to exist as a power to be counted on.

Let me explain so you understand it better and think about the implications in a modern world. According to the Koran it is ok to tell lies it is in some cases even commanded. Here are some text on the Hadith

(16) It is of the adab of the high path of Islam to abandon lying, for it is unlawful. Allah Most High curses liars by saying, "May liars be slain" (Qur'an 51:10), in which slain means "cursed" according to the Arabic idiom likening the accursed, who loses every good and happiness, to the slain, who loses life and every blessing. The Qur'anic exegete al-Khazin notes that "May liars be cursed" originally referred to those who sat on the various roads outside Mecca warning people against the words of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) to keep them from becoming Muslim. The verse, however, like other Qur'anic verses, is not limited to the original circumstances in which it was revealed, but applies universally, to the end of time. Those who lie, except in circumstances in which Sacred Law permits it, are cursed by Allah.

(SO FAR SO GOOD OSAMA< HOWEVER>>>>)

(17) It is unlawful to lie, except when making up between two people, or lying to an enemy in war, or to one's wife. It is also unlawful to praise or blame another with an untruth. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "Lying is wrong, except in three things: the lie of a man to his wife to make her content with him; a lie in war, for war is deception; or a lie to settle trouble between people" (Ahmad, 6.459. H). Ibn Jawzi has said, "The criterion for it is that every praiseworthy objective in Sacred Law that cannot be brought about without lying is permissible to lie for if the objective is permissible, and obligatory to lie for if the objective is obligatory." When lying is the only way to attain one's right, one may lie about oneself or another, provided it does not harm the other. And it is obligatory to lie to if necessary to protect a Muslim from being murdered. But whenever one can accomplish the objective by words that merely give a misleading impression with actually being false, it is unlawful to tell an outright lie, because it is unnecessary.

I believe that this mixture of lies and truth is why Islam came to an end centuries ago, and why it is never to rise again. You are untrustworthy. WE the people of other countries unfettered by your book now knows that to us you are liers, you are sanctioned by your prophet to deceive us and do so all the time. NOTE the word OBLIGATORY.

I suspect that you are not aware of these things. How would you like to be the wife of a husband who has been given the privilege to lie to you with Gods book in his hand, about money matters infidelity etc etc. How do you think you could EVER live in a world with people that you are allowed to decieve. This is what your religios leaders in your sacred ISALAM does all the time. This why a discussion with Moslems, be it on the net or youtube or in person ALWAYS ends up in  confusion. You do not have to follow the same rules as we do, you can lie and decieve in your arguments, and do so all the time.

The fact is that most of the millions of Muslims in the world want to be respected as truthful people, while they follow a book that teaches that it is ok to lie......to us. You see the problem. It is huge. Then when they are faced with this fact they turn to sarcasm and name calling, something they are strictly forbidden..............go figure.

Civilized.................I think not

Think about it, now that is what I call a pathetic religion

pa·thet·ic   –adjective
1. causing or evoking pity, sympathetic sadness, sorrow, etc.; pitiful; pitiable: a pathetic letter; a pathetic sight. 
2. affecting or moving the feelings. 
3. pertaining to or caused by the feelings. 
4. miserably or contemptibly inadequate

well thank you Osama, your  comment says it all. LOL all it does is confirm my opinion that you are indeed very young and rather "uncivilized".

For your information it is good manners refined and "civilized", to attempt to have a conversation, an actual exchange of ideas, with people you are at odds with.

To comment by saying "its dumb" is rather unrefined ignorant and quite offensive. No  further explanation no reasoning just the same old re reiteration of former sentiments.

It confirms to me that you are quiet an ignorant and rather stupid, yes stupid, young man.

stu·pid (stpd, sty-)
adj. stu·pid·er, stu·pid·est
1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.


But then again how can I claim such things, you are by your own admission a Muslim and superior to infidels like myself, more civilized.

And to all of you out there who perchance happen on this exchange of words.......make up your own minds

Thankyou

Hi Osama
You seem to have plenty of time on your hands, something I do not. In this short post I shall attempt to explain my point of view and will include a few clips that I would ask you to check out.

Our disagreement seem to stem from a few things. Firstly we seem to disagree on the definition of "Civilized". I believe that it is possible to be civilized WITHOUT embracing Islam, and you believe that it is impossible to be civilized without following Islam.

If this is the case we need to define the word we are discussing.......... Civilized. If to you being civilised means being Muslim, then we have nothing to discuss, if we decide to use the dictionary definition of civilized we can discuss this issue.

Some of the most common ways a Muslim manages to keep the upper hand in a discussion such as this, is to attack the religion or political system of his/her opponent, thus sending the discussion into gridlock and as a result, Islam is never really discussed. The other way is  by answering with very long post, quotes and counter claims WITHOUT answering the issues brought forth, which has the same effect has the same effect. This is very clearly seen in the first Video clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYB4pG3kHIY





The answer to the Immam, is that while there has been various wars and atrocities committed by a multitude of different people throughout the history of the world, Islam is the ONLY religion, and the KORAN is the only sacred book which contains COMMANDMENTS for its followers to kill the ones who believe differently. You will naturally say that the jewish Old Testament contains similar commandments, but it does not. The commandment was for a specific region and people, the Cananites and whether oine believes it actually happened or not, it was NOT a commandment to spread the beliefs of the Jews to the entire world by violence. Islam is unique in this.

Secondly I would ask you to consider this. If there had been no America YOU would probably not have been born. For sure you would not be where you are. It is the American Civilization who has made it possible for you to be free. You have never had to suffer poverty, injustice and discrimination like you would have, had you been born to a Jewish mother and a Palestinian father in the mideast. You would be outcasts if you had tried to settle in a Muslim country.

It is normal for a young person to rebel against the norm. It is hardwired into us. Many young Muslims therefore in Islamic countries, have therefor been caught up in this religious fervor, and radicalized to satisfy their youthful dreams. Nothing wrong with that. Youth thirsts after righteousness. In America it is a similar mecanism. Young Muslims rebel against the sneaking secularism that is eating away at their parents generation, many of whom are only Muslim in word. They have taught you that it is possible to live in peace in a forign land have American friends etc something the Koran strictly forbids, and so you rebel as well. Yet you have also been living in America, and know its evil. Since you see the world around you as horrible at times, you have bought into the notion that if only Islam would be ruling all this would end.

In this you make a mistake. I have lived a lifetime in Muslim countries and believe me it is WORSE. This is very hard for you to believe  but it is the truth. Since you have not, you do not have the ability to discuss this issue, because all you can do is show me articles, sermons etc of how things should be in a perfect world, made by people who has it their vested interest in making you believe that ISLAM is the answer to all lifes problems...........it is NOT. You will see this as you grow older.

I find it hard to discuss with you, not because I do not want to hear your points of view, but  because you make claims you can not verify, and expect them to be taken for reality. You might as well say that all roads are paved with gold in the mideast and stick to it. People have told you, you have heard it on the YOUTUBE, you read articles about it on the net, and a friend even brought you back a small piece of it as proof.

A small amount of Gold does not mean that the roads are paved with it however but you have CHOSEN to believe in your teachers and friends, rather than in those who tell you the brutal truth......it is a lie. It crushes you, and in your mind you counciously make a choice to perpetrate the lies by defending them, quoting all the same sermons and tube clips you were "fed" and attacking viciously anyone who claims to know better, anyone who have seen ISLAM in real life.

This is your choice and such is life, people do this in totalitarian systems all the time, simply because they are afraid of facing up to the social disaster of being ostracized by friends and family.

BUT remember this........you are accountable for the truth. Never tell someone that something is true before you have seen it with your own eyes. Stay open and use your common sense, weigh everything you tell others on a scale of truth......cause if you do not you lead them astray into darkness and lies.

Think about it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ&feature=related

This clip says it all, very interesting, I would like to ask your comment on it.

Ambient Sound
The very fact that you know all this, that you can express it openly, without fear of repercussions makes you part of a civilized society. Like it or not. In Muslim countries there is very little free expression, sharia law, no rights for women who are owned by their husbands, and corruption and all manner of uncivilized things going on. Cutting off hands of a thief, punishing the girl who has been raped rather than the rapist, honor killings, suicide jihadist warriors, kids being told that they get to heaven if they kill Jews and on and on.

Now I only object to the fact that this guy who claims to be American call Muslim countries more civilized than the west. It is absurd. I lived most my adult life some odd 30 years in Muslim countries, I lived in Turkey Iran Afghanistan and Pakistan and I can assure you this is NOT the case.

I would suggest to Osama or whatever that he try to go live in one, or better move to one. He will be dispised for being an American and could get in real big trouble. Anyway he is a young man who loves to do these stunts loves to make these outrageous claims and he really has no idea. Besides that I very much doubt that he is telling the truth. Noone living in America would believe that American or western women cannot go out at night without fear of being right. This is a myth as you well know, yet one that is being told over and over in the mideast. They believe we have sexual relation with animals on a major scale, rape and kill women at will, and generally cook and eat our friends and neighbours. A typical line from clergy in the mideast, watch youtube.YOU know that this is silly.

I tried to define Civilized, and whether you believe that the Western civilization leaves much to be desired it a heck of a lot better than the Mideast..........believe me. I know

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Wrhivp7eQ

2. 1. there is a difference between capital punishment, and killing for the sake of sadism.

2. 3. Anyone can write whatever they want on wikipedia, their word is no better than mine. the punishment for rape is death. in fact, the Taliban (May Allah preserve them) established themselves in response to men raping women. They gained faimed and popularity initially through their establishing the hudood (Islamic penal code) on the rapists (by killing them.) I trust what Muslims relate to me because I know they are trustworthy people in comparison to most non-muslims.

2. 4. Yes, Faith in God is a condition for civilization. Faith in God is a natural instinct. In fact, new research states that faith in God is ingrained in our biological makeup. The very fact that in America , britain etc. faith in God is openly opposed and doubted is a sign of a certain hopeslessness and twistedness in these societies and  a subconscious worship of false idols that these societies set up to confuse people.

2.5. Actually, I'm American. I was born and raised in California to a Jewish mother  and palestinian father in a moderately secular environment. I was born in the "ideal" suburban community.

I know the barbarity and desperation of American society because Ive seen it first hand, and I know the purity and peaceful nature of Muslims because Ive seen it first hand.

So let me get this straight ....you have actually lived in a Muslim country?

OK lets just answer these claims one by one.

1) the Muslims invented algebra and are the pioneers of Medicine, the origin of the belief in heliocentricity as well as the earth's spherical shape.

In the 11th century, Muslim astronomers began questioning the Ptolemaic system, beginning with Ibn al-Haytham, and they were the first to conduct elaborate experiments related to astronomical phenomena, beginning with Abū al-Rayhān al-Bīrūnī's introduction of the experimental method into astronomysee: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject, whether Muslims are more civilized today. It an retiration of claims concerning the PAST. 

The Muslims understand what it means to fear God and be conscious of Him. To worship Him and none else. To work for the Hereafter as opposed to this transitory life.

This has nothing to do with being civilized as per the definition of the word.

2. Muslim societies, even at their farthest away from Islam (like many societies in the Muslim world today) are still 100 times more humane than Western societies.

1. Serial Killing/torture killing is an inherently western phenomena, and rarely happens in the Muslim world.

This is ludicrous. Here is a couple of very brief account of Muhammeds behaviour as confirmed in the Koran and the Hadith this is by no means the only examples. Aside from that there present day behaviour by various radical groups, beheadings suicide bombings etc. as well as public rape

http://english.pravda.ru/fun/2002/07/02/31654.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Terrorism/torture.html

During the year 628 A.D., eight men from the clan of Uraynah, came to Medina.  They became Muslims.  While they were there they got sick.  Muhammad prescribed a medicine for them:  he told them to drink camel milk and camel urine.  After the men got better, they brutally murdered the shepherd of the camels, stole the camels, and tried to escape.  Muhammad sent an armed party of 20 men after them.  They were caught and brought back to Medina.  There, Muhammad pronounced their judgment:  their eyes were branded with hot irons, then plucked out, their hands and feet were cut off, and then, while still alive, they were thrown out on the hot desert to die.

Muhammad aggressively attacked several groups of people around him.  One of these groups were the Jews of Khaibar.  Muhammad believed God led him to attack Khaibar.  After Khaibar was conquered, the Jews were either enslaved, executed, or allowed to live there provided they gave the Muslims one half of all they produced.  One of Muhammad's most brutal acts involved a prisoner named Kinana.  Kinana was one of the leaders of Khaibar.  Muhammad wanted him to reveal where some buried treasure was hidden.  Kinana refused.  Muhammad had him tortured to the point of death, then had him beheaded.

2. Public acceptance of Fornication/illicit behavior, homosexuality,  adultery is inherently western phenomena, and rarely happens in the Muslim world.

3. Safety and security for women is scarce in any Western country at times of peace. A woman can barely go out at at night alone in America without fearing harassment. In Muslim societies a woman is safe and secure, and knows she wont be harassed/raped.

These claims are silly there are no statistics to back this up, it only shows that you are ignorant of life in the world in a broader sense. It also shows that you must absolutely be living in a Mideastern country and have been influenced by the propaganda of Islam. Rape is sanctioned in Islam,

Rape
Islamic criminal jurisprudence does not discriminate between genders in punishments for crimes.[citation needed] In case of sexual crimes such as zina (fornication), however, women may be found guilty more easily than men, because of the visible evidence of pregnancy; without a pregancy, four witnesses are required to file a zina case.[45] The difficulty of prosecuting rapists and the possibility of prosecution for women who allege rape has been of special interest to activists for Muslim women's rights.[46] In the past decades there have been several high profile cases of pregnant women prosecuted for zina who claim to have been raped.[47][48][49] [50]

The overwhelming majority of Muslim scholars believe that there is no punishment for a woman coerced into having sex.[51] According to a Sunni hadith, the punishment for committing rape is death, there is no sin on the victim, nor is there any worldly punishment ascribed to her.[52] However, the stringent requirements for proof of rape under some interpretations of Islamic law, combined with cultural attitudes regarding rape in some parts of the Muslim world, result in few rape cases being reported; even the cases brought forward typically result in minimal punishment for offenders or severe punishment for victims.[53] It can be difficult to seek punishment against rapists, because a zina case cannot be brought without four witnesses, even for rape cases.

4. Atheism is an inherently western phenomena, and is rare in the Muslim world.

Your assumption is that civilization can only be attained by faith in Allah. This is not the case, besides that there is capital punishment for being an atheist in some Muslim countries, and social rejection in others, ......do you think that atheists are speaking up a lot in such places. I should think not

5. Sadistic crimes committed at all ages are inherently western phenomena and do not happen in the Muslim world.


Then you use some examples of crimes in the west, but how can you do that. You say that the acts of certain terrorists is not a reflection of how Muslims live yet you say that the acts of a few wacked out insane people is a reflection of the west. Not professional. 


all in all it is evident that you have no clue of life in the west. I actually thought you were British at one point but if you were you would not have posted like you did but you would have known the silliness of your arguments.

Muslims are more civilized than you.

have a good day.

-Abu-Usaama

LOL i mean .....thats fantastic....you crack me up Osama. Here is the definition of Civilized

civ·i·lized (sv-lzd)
adj.
1. Having a highly developed society and culture.
2. Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable
3. Marked by refinement in taste and manners; cultured; polished.

1 General Musharaf of pakistan in the following article says

"Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race," he told the delegates.


President Musharraf then made a comparison of the economic growth in Islamic countries with some developed countries.

While the collective Gross National Product of the all Muslim countries stands at $1,200bn, that of Germany alone is $2,500bn and that of Japan $5,500bn.

the entire article is here 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1824455.stm

As far as having a civilized culture read the following article

Ethics and Corruption in Muslim Countries: Fact versus Fiction?
the link is here

http://makkah.wordpress.com/2006/11/28/ethics-and-corruption-in-muslim-countries-fact-versus-fiction/

2 and 3. As far as "Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable" give me a break you are so far behind and so barbaric that it defies common sense. Do I really have to include links to comment on this absurd claim

lets see ....ummmm how about this one 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_kyNIevsIs

oops was that YOU I saw there Osama

As far as being refined and cultured..........hahahaha I mean ....what planet are mailing from. The FACT remain that the Muslim world is barbaric uncivilized with laws and practices that strive horribly against human right. But  I would guess you have never LIVED in a Muslim country.......all you have is the word of your Imam and the history books, the great dreams of Islam during its heyday the Islamic golden age.

Today in this world the Muslim world is in turmoil and stinks to the high heaven of corruption barbary ignorance illiteracy and fanaticism, and the fact that you cant see this does not exactly make you seem too intelligent either   

Besides that just drop your comments of the Bible, you cannot defend your own barbaric religion by attacking the Old testament, we are not talking about the Jews we are talking about YOU and Islam.

k, Osama ?

You have a good day too my little friend.