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Hi ninthplanet

I've had accupuncture many times & found it extremely effective. I have a friend I went to school with who now has his own accupuncture clinic, so he only charges me what he pays for the needles & any herbal or other remedies like ear candles, which I use about every 6 months to equalize pressure in the head correctly, relieving problems with sinus & blocked eustachian tubes in the ear.

After I had an accident in which I crushed the bottom 3 discs in my back, the doctors gave me morphine tablets to get by on, it masked the pain a bit, but left me like a zombie. I went to my friend & he put a needle in my wrist & I could feel no pain what so ever, instant relief!

So on reading briefly what sort of method Robert was using with NEW, I began to wonder, so I got the book & did the exercises & must admit I have to do them for brief sessions, as I get a very strong reaction with NEW.

I havn't had the accupuncture treatments for about 7 months, except ear candles which I do at home, as I can't afford the herbal & eastern medicines that go with the accupuncture. For the average person he charges $70 for a consoltation plus the cost of needles & medicine at retail. Most people don't walk out without spending between $80 to $120 & it's not covered by medicare.

I really enjoy the session & they are a perfect time for a brief OBE, as they usually play meditation music, burn moxa & leave you alone for 30 mins with needles all over you, I love it.

Have you tried it ninth planet? What did you think?

Mobius

G,day Kakkarot

Good to read about the upturn in your life, I like hearing positive stories & hope everything works out, I'm sure it will now that your are becoming more self aware.

I like Eminem also, except for the song "Kim", a bit disturbing, as he really acts out his music, not literally, but all the sound effects & fills he puts in are very clever & conjures visual effects while listening. I think the guy is hilarious & sends himself up as much as he does other people. Havn't got the new cd yet, but I'm sure it's as tongue in cheek as the rest of his stuff.

I can't wait to go on some holidays myself & hearing about people having holidays rubs it in a little, but spurs me on to reach that point, anyway all the best & keep smiling.

Good journeys

Mobius

MOVIE SPOILER WARNING!


I'm not sure if this part is the same in the book, but in the movie, my favourite part would have to be, when he first dies & his son who had died a couple of years earlier arrives on the scene ( In the guise of someone who's words he could believe,eg. a peer as opposed to a child) to teach him about the astral & the afterlife & what he could do & where he could go.

When he went to follow his friend/son & his friend/son went across water & he tried to follow. His perceptions were still firmly based in the physical & he sunk straight to the bottom of the lake, he panicked briefly as he thought he would drown, even though he was dead & had no lungs anymore. Then his friend began to explain & the penny dropped for him.

His friend/son says " what is you?"...................."If I cut off your arm, would you still be you?"........"Yes" he replied....................." If you lost your arms & legs, would you still be you?"............" Well yes" he replies again........................"Well, what is you then?"........................"I guess it's my brain".he says confused. "Your brain is a body part, like your heart & other organs".

When the moment of realisation dawned on him, as to the possibilities, he really began to think, even question the people allready there & push the boundaries on the astral, to do things veterans hadn't done.

The soulmates concept in the movie was pretty good, in the movie though, he doesn't mention the kids. Daniel were the kids added to the equation in the book, when he decided to reincarnate & convinced his wife to do it also?

I am hoping they don't rap things up so quick in the book, I wonder what happens to the kids? do they just hang out for another 20 years or so until their parents have kids again, giving them another window of oppurtunity? Or do they start their own new path, new soul? Or where they someone else, just entering those parents lives briefly, to give & share experiences, adding to their allready numerous lives.

I feel I have found my soulmate & the concept really interests me too.

Good journeys all

Mobius

G,day Rodentmouse

I can't remeber Robert saying he used grounding techniques "before" OBE's, but I might have missed it in the book. I only use grounding after returning from an OBE, or trying to break out of the trance stage quickly. To ground yourself back into the physical, without residual effects of the astral hanging on you.

All the best mate

Mobius

Sorry fallenangel, lucky he didn't post yet, I was just curious, but will buy the book & read it regardless of how much he divulges. It's a few years past the movie/book now so I could probably pick it up at a second hand bookstore.

Maybe Daniel could put in bold SPOILER & leave a gap so anyone can skip it. I don't mind though Daniel, so fire away.

What OBE's may come

Mobius

G,day Spencer & welcome

From what you say you are doing nicely on your adventures with OBE's. If you havn't allready I suggest you get hold of ASTRAL DYNAMICS by Robert Bruce here, as it covers many things Monroe doesn't, also it expands on concepts Monroe only delved into briefly. The resonate tuning humming that Monroe uses is a "Mantra". "Om" & "Ah" sounds have been used for centuries & do seem to play some sort of part, well they do on the cd's anyway.

As to the lack of vibrations, I agree with Psi's comments, you are probably used to them & not anticipating their arrival as a sign post that you are about to have an OBE. The things being in the wrong place or not making sense is talked about in depth in Astral Dynamics, p 460.

Such an obvious thing & it really cleared a lot of things up for me, it's called
"Vision-Reversal" & makes complete sense. In the physical form we have about 220 degrees of vision, but while in an OBE, we are a point of consciousness with a 360 degree viewing potential, so we can change our viewpoints without changing direction of our body, the problem is the way we see things in the physical is so ingrained into the subconscious it doesn't know another way of being, so is confused by what Bruce terms  "Spherical vision".

All the best & good journeys mate

Mobius

Hi Daniel

What didn't you like about the ending or what bits did you disagree with? I have another couple of books to get through, so that one will have to wait a month or 2. Is the end part of the book portrayed the same as the movie? Where they re-incarnated? Or made a conscious decision to re-incarnate? like the movie?

It was a little strange that they had only just got to the other side & were finding out about their new found freedoms & the whole family was back together again & the confusion was dissipating about the afterlife, then he says " lets go back & do it all over again", she says " How will we ever find each other again?" he says " I found you once, I'll find you again".

Although I have heard that sort of talk from old folks in the physical. " life is complex & when you finally figure it all out, it's time to go". From the movie, it's a bit like that for people on the other side too. A small percentage stay on as guides, angels, administrators etc. & the majority just cycle through.

Welcome Cylentpanthur & it's ok about the spelling, it's a given, good journeys all.

Mobius

Hey Frank

That is good that your brow chakra is not a problem for you & is not actually hurting, as mine has got to the point where it's just plain annoying. I was practicing some music today & the music soothed it for a while, so maybe I should play more music,hehe.

On the strobe effect, yes , just like a camera flash, brilliant white & appears to come through your forehead. I have had many little ones over the years, but the big one I was talking about happened about 13 years ago & came in a series of strobes. I could feel this energy build up inside me & I felt a bit like I was a human tesla coil.

The problem is when it happened, it was spontaneous & I wasn't doing anything more than laying down on the bed. I was actually trying to escape from it, like I was under attack from some unseen thing trying to shoot brilliant white balls of light or energy into my head. I wish I knew back then what I know now as I would have gone with the flow. From all accounts though, they seem to be associated with psychic growth, some psychic execise of a sort.

Thanks for the link I'll give it a try. On exercises for strengthening syncronisation between the two halfs of the brain, I've heard that one of the best methods for doing this is 'juggling'. It manually forces the two halfs of the brain into working together by using your left & right arm. I've been trying this on & off for a while, not that good yet, with 3 balls I mean & 2 hands. It can't be one hand juggling or juggling with any less than 3 balls. I've got to sit on the floor to do it, as I get sick of bending down to pick them up.

Good journeys

Mobius

G,day Frank

I,ve been having that same problem for a couple of months now & from most metaphysical books the problem is diagnosed as an over active brow chakra or third eye, however from the more science based information sources & sources that don't come from religous text e.g Pagans, remote native tribes; it is the pineal gland which is refered to, the little sucker that sits exactly centre of the two hemispheres of the brain.

It's really been bothering me & at times has got to the point where I just want to claw at it & dig the little sucker out of my head & the symptoms sound the same as what you are describing Frank, a small circle in the middle of your head only just under the skin, I'm sure it was the same thing Waterfall was describing too.

From all metaphysical books I've read, it is suggested to stop all OBE activity for a little while, maybe a week. The problem is I tried this for two weeks & still no relief so I went to the doctors. He said it was nothing to worry about & that it was similar to when the glands in your neck just under the jaw line go up & down periodically during your life. I wasn't happy with the answer as I had to leave with no more answers than when I started.

Anyway, to my way of thinking, because the pineal gland sits in the middle of the two hemispheres of the brain, it is somehow a junction or a mixing point of information or energy produced by the two hemispheres. For some reason we don't use both sides of our brain in syncronisation, that is using equal amounts of thought from each side to make decisions, most people are either predominantly left brain thinkers or right brain thinkers.

You can use physical execises to promote syncronisation, use a compound or application (not advisable) & there is Hemi-Sync, which does it with sound.

I've read some amazing stories lately in my quest to find out more about the third eye/ brow chakra/ pineal gland, as it something I personally have to deal with & is a bit annoying, also the last time I had this much activity in my brow chakra/ third eye/ pineal gland, I received a huge strobe to my forehead & this time around I hope to be prepared for it.

Good journeys mate

Mobius

These things we see that have been described as dancing dots or sparks require a slightly out of focus vision for me to see, a bit like the way you re-focus your eyes to see 3D objects in those 3D posters you see around.
Definately not just the bits of dust & specs of hair etc. that covers the eyes & appears stationary while the eyes are not moving, then follow your eye movements when you look elswhere.

These things have erradic flight almost like tiny insects, but seem to wink in & out of existence, like being at the movies & seeing dust pass through the light path of the projector, except instead of just moving with air currents they can create their own momentum, strange but beautiful.

All the best on your journeys

Mobius

Hey Cainam

I guess, that's the question everyone asks of any religion, belief or faith they get invoved with, to get to the bottom of any of these beliefs & faiths & to prove or disprove them, would cost thousands, even millions, have you chasing things all over the world & you would need one hell of a security clearance to get to the heart & genesis of the info.

 Each & every one of those sites have some element of truth to them & for all we know fact, I still pick up the bible & 1/2 of it has words that make you think, " that fits with me pretty good". Even if one of those sites were true, how exiciting, but to be fair, the bible & science have had the weight of multimillion dollar academic scrutiny, ripping apart every statement made by the other, whereas, these guys aren't attracting the big bucks that would attract the time & attention of other religions & science.

So as readers, the best we can do is to see if we can cross check any of this info with existing sources.

Good journeys mate

Mobius

Hi guys

Now I'll definately get the book, as the movie just blows me away. Every time I see it I look at others reactions or talk to people who have seen it, they have a pretty casual disinterested reaction to it, for me, it's like someone pulled some of the places I've been on the astral straight out of my head & put it on film. The way they represented suicides didn't ring true to experiences I've had, but then again the astral is a big place & places like the "sea of heads" may exist & some may have seen it, I havn't. I guess in one way if the sea of heads did exist, it would be a convenient visual phonebook, just walk around until you see the head that you want to find,hehe.The place he first goes after he dies is very familiar for me & even sounds like Franks training ground. I also love how they show people you know changing in appearance & someone who appears to be just a good friend actually turns out to be a relative.

The only lower level astral planes I've seen concerning suicides matched the hell depicted in the movie "the others". Which I guess is fairly similar to the wifes hell depicted in WDMC, although in " the others" the place they lived was pretty clean & tidy (although dark) as opposed to the damp dirty unkept place the wife from WDMC, which I,ve seen as well, but just not the shear isolation of the astral realm she was in. But as I said before, it's a big place & thousands would have seen all sorts of realms.

I love the movie & doesn't really bother me the depiction of where suicides go, as it is only a movie & they couldn't have done everything perfect & pleased everyone I guess.

A movie that for some reasons makes me uncomfortable when I see it to do with lower astral realms is "the Cell". That too is only a movie, but the part where jennifer lopez is going into a trance & into peoples minds especially this killers mind freaked me out a bit, as some lower levels disturbingly look like that for me, not pleasant.

It will be interesting to see how different the books version of the suicide bit compares to the movie & if it is much different, I wonder why they changed it?

Good journeys all

Mobius

G,day Dan

I havn't read the book, however I have seen the movie & have a copy on video as it's my favourite movie for visual OBE descriptions. Although I don't believe they represented what happens to suicides very well, but it's still worth it for the rest. The books are usually always better than the movies, have you seen the movie? How do they compare?

Good journeys mate

Mobius

Hi all

I agree with Tisha & unfortunately it took me a long time to come to terms with taking sleeping tablets. After an accident I had in 98 producing 3 slipped discs I had little choice. For me, the benefits are threefold : 1) I get a gauranteed sleep for at least 4-6 hours 2) I get relief from pain during those hours 3) It slows or inhibits OBE activity, which from a child I had spontaneously & too frequently for my liking & I just wanted some sleep.

Some people might say, oh, that sucks, this guy is having OBE's all the time & is complaining about it. I don't know what to say or how to explain it, but I was getting to the stage where I would fear going to bed, as not long after I closed my eyes I would start falling, straight into an OBE. I couldn't just start off on the ground & slowly move around, instead I would fall or fly from my body, which due to the laws of gravity in the physical, gave me the impression it all wasn't natural & I would quickly come to my fully awake state. This would go on all night unless I exhausted myself, then stayed up late so that when I finaly did go to bed, I would fall asleep & not fall into an OBE.

I f you are really suffering from sleep deprivation, insomnia etc. & not just needing a downer to wind down or to counter the effects of caffeine or drugs, see a doctor, it really is worth it. Hopefully you could get by on some valerian or something natural like that, nothing at all is obviously the best, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

Good journeys all

Mobius

Hi all

Virtually every phone call, fax, email & text message sent anywhere in the world is captured & analysed by ECHELON, which is controlled mainly by the NSA.

Typing those words may or may not trigger a flag, but you would hope & think that these people are responsible enough to realise this is a peaceful forum & website & we have no terrorist tendencies.

Echelon is a global spy system operated in conjunction with General Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) in the UK, the Communications Security Establishment (CSE) in Canada, the Australian Defence Security Directorate (DSD) & the General Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) in New Zealand.

In 1992 the London Obsever reported that Echelon dictionaries targeted Amnesty International, Greenpeace & even Christian ministeries.

They definately have the manpower, technology & capital, to know a great deal about all of us, but I guess if you are not doing anything wrong you should have nothing to worry about & wouldn't expect to be hacked unless you wrote words that sent flags up to certain peoples interests.

There are other ways than trying to remove yourself from the information network.

Good journeys all, sleep tight.

Mobius

Hi guys

I just thought I would add these links I thought were thought provoking & I like to see information from everyones viewpoint, these links do not represent any particular beliefs I have, I just like to see what various people are thinking about. These sites are pretty big & contain heaps of info on points raised on this topic, so have fun & let me know what you think or if you have any similar links you know of.

Revolution against Evolution
http://www.rae.org/

Anthropology Human origins
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5579/TA2.html

Ancient Astronauts
http://ufos.about.com/cs/ancientastronauts/index_1.htm

Raeliens
http://www.rael.org/int/english/index.html

Wingmakers
http://www.wingmakers.com

Gnosis
http://www.astrologyforthepeople.com/

2012
http://www.2012.com.au/Site.A.html

Talk origins
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/other-links.html

Good journeys all

Mobius

I wouldn't worry too much, unless they are people well versed in occult or metaphysical concepts. Then you should heed the warning as there are certain practices & faiths that work with & rely on negative energy, but it seems this wouldn't apply to you anyway as you are probably using positive applications & know that you will attract negatives to yourself by concentrating on them so much.

When I was about 15-16, my parents took some hardcore catholic friends who worked for a church on a tour of my bedroom, my hobbies at the time were AD&D & heavy metal & I had an obsession with the art associated with these things, I had my room completely covered in posters of demons,dragons,skeletons (mainly the ones from iron maiden), dead people everywhere, all over the walls ceiling & furniture, hehe.

My mother new what their reaction would be, "Blasphemy!, Heresy!, a shrine to the devil!" they said. I suspect they used the little show to stop these people earbashing them,hehe. They didn't seem to turn up again, maybe they thought my parents were teaching some sort of satanism & had a thing for death or something, as we lived on top of an ambulance station at the time.

Even more humour was created by these people, as I told some of my friends who DID know about that stuff & knew that it was no shrine to satan, as it had huge letters emblazoned across them like METALLICA, IRON MAIDEN, SLAYER. I guess people will see what they want to see & hear what they want to hear, I should know, I've been guilty of it myself.

You sound like a fairly positive person Cainam, so next time they try it on you, play with it a little.

Good journeys

Mobius

Hi Astrud

You seem to be fairly familiar with the terminology & experiences felt while an OBE is occuring, lots of authors have different interpretations on what you are experiencing, if you havn't allready, get hold of Robert Bruce's "Astral Dynamics", it explains things in a way that doesn't get heavy with abstract concepts that you are not likely to relate to & has physical & mental exerices to increase clarity & recall. The books by Monroe, Moen & Buhlman are excellent as well.

It is good that you can relax so easily in the daytime, well afternoon anyway & you probably are allready having OBE,s at the time of your nap, hence the sunset or darkness you perceive shortly afterwards. The dog incident very well could be interaction between the both of you on an astral plane & the fact that you patted it & remembered it enforces that idea, then again it could have been a dream, I guess you will be the best judge of that as you piece together more info about yourself & OBE terminology.

The vortexes are possibly doorways into a particular astral level or to an area particular to you, are they circular? or do they take other forms as well?

"Ocasionally I am dreaming at the same time", suggests something that is talked about on page 79 & 80 of Astral Dynamics, either "Astral Sight" or "Remote eye projection", depending on what you actually experienced while you were aware you were dreaming.

Anyway, you might get some other ideas off other readers of this post & the previous pages as well, as the experiences you have talked about have happened to many in here, good luck & good journeys.

Mobius

Yes, good topic Cainam, thanks for starting it & for the reading I've done because of it.

I like to think that if there is any higher being/s looking over us, they are giving us good advice, but who knows, I guess we'll find out soon. The alien intervention thing has sprung up more & more lately & there's quite a few institutions established all around the globe now that either directly reference aliens or redescribe them so as not to cause panic. The Raeliens openly say aliens, from where I don't know. Others like the freemasons are supposed to have beliefs about the Pleidians, the Rosicurian order if I remember right, had something similar. Many other little cults & sects believe in some sort of connection with Pleides, Sirius & Orion, the Wingmakers site says that we were visited by ourselves or other humans from the future, a huge site with a fairly complex story & very interesting. Things are moving quickly these days & our information & technology advancements will hopefully allow us to check further into the claims of these institutions.

The hubble telescope recently viewed a galaxy that looked similar to ours & had planets & all, some even in positions relative to their sun to theoretically support life, maybe it's the dudes from battlestar gallactica looking over at earth from their planet thinking 'mmmm, cool, if we stuff this planet we can always go there, they wont mind, will they? we look just like them', hehe.

Thanks again mate & look forward to some more semi-postulation, quite enjoyable, good journeys & good day sir.

Mobius

G,day Cainam

I don't lean towards anything I said in particular as science & religion is progressive, they both have huge innacuracies in their bibles & textbooks, that don't corroborate with any real facts, however they both stamp their feet on the ground & demand that this is how things are, when in reality any criticism of the paradigms from it's members or outsiders is stifled through their "peer review processes", so as not to step on anyones beliefs, pride or ego's. The reality of life is, things change & we have to be careful to realise that or be trapped in the past, prefering to believe in one particular thing because that's what feels comfortable, the unknown for many is what we tend to fear or predjudice, even hate, because those unknowns are not familiar to us.

I do like to experience things for myself or see at least some corroborating evidence or facts, I guess that's why I drifted out of religion, but I have never dismissed the idea of Gods or should I say highly advanced beings. Not because I hope to curry their favour, but because it's entirely plausable that there IS far more advanced beings than us humans out there. Two thousand years ago seeing a UFO would be an indescribable event, let alone getting to talk to the occupants of the craft. With technology like nothing ever seen before & their arrival from the sky or space would seem to them to be nothing other than Gods, especially if they came in human form. Today we have space travel ourselves & are not as likely to believe that something or someone arriving from outer space would be a God. The Nazca lines always puzzles me & no definate answer has been found to that riddle yet, but one fact remains, you can only see the drawings from an aircraft & the date of the drawings were determined to have been made long before humans were supposed to have any flying type transports.

I have family who believe they are Atheists (which I'm not), but will sometimes say " I am in control of everything in my life, but some things are beyond my control" or "certain things are Gods will" or " that storm was an act of God". So they still believe some higher force is responsible for things they don't understand as yet.

I like this passage from Marion Weinstein's "Positive magic" :
" Because religions are no longer relevant to some in modern life, they throw out the entire package, the religion & any idea of a God. I do not believe that rejecting all is a thoughtful act, nor even an effective one, in terms of personal development & psychic health. Too often people transfer their feelings of awe, fear & devotion to science or another authoritative system which still denies people's own sense of power, inventive thoughts & personal responsibility".

I don't know if I've seen a God as I wouldn't know what one looked like, unless I felt it somehow. I havn't seen an alien in the physical before either, well not the ones depicted in ET, close encounters, cocoon etc. anyway. I did encounter some sort of being in an OBE once, my moon experience I posted a while back, it was incredibly vivid & wasn't good, a serious encounter with a negative, that I sensed was far more advanced than I.

I believe if there is a God, there is more than one, at the minimum a male & a female type aspect, a yin & yang, furthermore, if there is a God/s & they are entirely good, there has to be a balance to ensure their purpose & growth continues but not unchecked. In nature when one species becomes too dominant it risks wiping itself out by the intense competitivness,increasing population & fast dwindling resources needed to live & a saturation point is reached, wiping out the majority until a balance is restored.

It doesn't matter to me either way anymore as I just try to do what is right, get on with everyone & keep an open & curious mind to everything. There is not much I can do about the fact that some day I will definately die, but I might as well find out about as many ideas, beliefs & concepts as I can & try to make as many well educated decisions as possible.

Until next time
Good journeys cainam

Mobius

Hi all again

Evolution : There is no doubt that some sort of evolution or adaption is taking place & it appears to be happening in every generation. At an atomic level the whole earth as far as we know recycles the same atoms over & over, which means that somehow atoms that exist on the planet in one form such as a tree or a fish or something cease to be & their atoms under the influence of some force, realign using some or all of their ingredients/atoms to produce a new something e.g. a human being.

At the molecular level is DNA (Deoxyribonucleic acid) , an amazing thing on it's own & was somehow known to ancient & present shamans to resemble what scientist know today as the double helix shape of DNA or two little serpents or snakes entwined with each other, basically looking like the medical symbol you see at chemists/pharmacies/hospitals & the kundalini symbol.

A study was performed by a guy called Jeremy Narby an anthropologist, to find out how isolated tribes in the amazon came to know about certain things, his book was called "The cosmic serpent". He wanted to know how they came up with their own brand of medicine, psychology & beliefs, similar to western medicines,  the knowledge however was gained through their own sources, their Shamans. They came up with compounds consisting of 2 or 3 varieties of plants to treat different ailments or to create a specific effect. In one case they made an OBE inducing compound which consisted of one plant that had incredible effects on the body & mind, but was neutralised in the stomachs acids, the second plant was to counteract this neutralizing effect & allow the first plants chemicals to be absorbed by the body. How did they know which plants to combine out of the 80,000 possible species in the amazon. Narby was told by the Shamans that the serpents inside them told them which plants to use! In fact the Shamans believed that the serpents were in every living thing & were basically the physical rulers of the earth. The same ones that ancient Olmecs, Mayans, Aztecs worshipped & the same ones revered by present day asians (the dragon) & Australian aboriginals (the serpent), coincidence?

At the cellular level there is single celled organisms & multicellular organisms & 3 main varieties of cells represent the majority of cells in the living world. Archaea, Bacteria & the Eukarya, a eukaryotic cell holds 1000 times the volume of the other two. Every gamete or sex cell of a multicellular organism forms into either a sperm or an egg, which in turn, develops into a fish, dog, horse, coral, humans, depending on their blueprint.

Scientists acknowledge that us humans share some similar DNA with other organisms on the planet, but so far Darwins missing link has not been found, i.e the fossilized remains of the link between man & apes, so far a satisfactory transition has not been proved. Primates have 48 chromosomes & us humans are considered vastly superior to them but have only 46 chromosomes, strange.

Arghh!!!! too much thinking, I'll have to get to the alien intervention tomorrow, until then goodnight, good day & good journeys all.

Mobius

G,day mate

Sounds like we have had some similar experiences growing up with religion & maybe I too should give some background into my involvement as I'm not against any prophets or Gods, they feel like family to me, it's just the establishments who sprung up in the name of these people or concepts, as they never asked for it & the very idea is what most of them stood against.

I lived in a very catholic/christian family, my mums side anyway. Church every Sunday or face the scorn of mum & God, my uncle was & still is a priest, my cousin went into the brotherhood & I became an alter boy, I was hooked, but somehow I knew inside that it was just my desire to fit in, to be like everyone else I spent the majority of my time with & for some selfish reasons as well, like wanting someone to be there to forgive wrongdoings & ensure a spot in Heaven or where ever land as long as I conformed to that belief system.

Most kids have that constant "why?" attitude but stop as soon as they realise that they could be made to look foolish for not knowing about something in front of their peers. For some reason I didn't care what my peers thought about me & I continued to ask "Why?", this started off the cracks in the walls of my belief system & I have been on a journey ever since. There was & still is only one thing I truly know about spirituality, the fact that I have a non physical body living inside & co-existing with a physical body.

Creationism : I think it is strange that the majority of the great prophets of the present & the past stood against the establishment of religous institutions & ammassing wealth in the name of those institutions to manipulate or even force compliance with their beliefs alienating those who don't.
Buddha ( 6th century BC), also known as Siddhartha Gautama, was born into a rich family of a northern indian ruler. After becoming aware of the suffering that occured outside the walls of his fathers palace, he became a wandering monk & for a while became a rigorous ascetic. He renounced extremes of both luxury & asceticism, he also ceased to believe in Gods. He founded a new order of monks but did not intend it to be a religion. His teachings were maintained by oral tradition for about 400 years before they were written down for the first time.
Jesus ( 4 BC - 27 AD ?) was to an extent a jewish teacher & prophet, revered by present christians as the son of God. Like confucius, he left no written works, what we know about him comes from accounts written at least a generation after his death. Was hated by the established jewish authorities & considered a trouble maker by both church & the occupying romans. He never tried to establish his own religion, church or tow the line with any belief system & try to enforce it.
" My uniform experience has convinced me that there is no other God than Truth. The only means for the realization of that truth is 'Ahisma' " ( the Hindu principle of harmlessness or non violence). Gandhi (1869- 1948).

The interpretations that followed these peoples lives evolved into something vastly different & contrary to the original concept. The main reason I feel, is yep here I go again, "MONEY". Parasites that attach to the host & drain them for all they have, for entirely selfish reasons. Today you hear about top paid actors & musicians saying that they agree they get paid too much, but if they don't the people promoting them will take much more than is necessary for themselves e.g Harrison Ford getting $ 40 million per film as opposed to a new actor who might get $50,000. Due to advancements in legal systems, copyrighting etc. Ford knows that the people wanting to use him would take $200 million & give him $50,000 if they could, using his image & personality for their own gain.
The thing with Jesus & Buddha is they had no idea how many would see their arrival on the scene as an opportunity to milk people of money, by pretending they had beliefs in alignment with their idol.

The point here is, most of the great prophets religous leaders of the past were not interested in pushing creationism, their main interests were just getting along with each other & encouraging people to do good things not because there was the likelihood of retribution from a God, but because that is what is the right thing to do.

I'd better cut my theorising short here, as I wanted to expand on the evolution & intervention concepts & I'm gettin sore, until later today.

Good journeys all

Mobius

G,day mate

Not sure if you were addressing me or not, but I agree with nearly everything you said. I shouldn't have started that post without finishing it as I have another 2 parts to add to it. Personally I don't find the existence of a God, creator or evolutionary concepts offensive, I'm just putting down some thoughts. I have a lot of work to do at present & will continue my last post tonight when I get home. Just throwing around ideas & I hope people don't take personal offence as my intention is not to bring down any pre-established beliefs or institutions, just to talk about them.

Good journeys all

Mobius

G,day Cainam

This sounds like what Robert Bruce mentions in Astral Dynamics about spending too much time in the astral, it happens to me as well from time to time. I can't remember the actual page number, but I think it was something along the lines of giving too much time to thought, in other words spending too much time in the lower levels of the astral. I didn't think there was any validity to the statement until I recognised that I was spending so much time mulling over things in my mind & things in my waking physical life suffered.

I noticed that lately you have clocked up quite a few posts & I remember when I was that active in this forum & how just replying to posts & being on a site like this, translates into a lot of thinking time & tasks that were once automatic like driving etc. become clouded, while I ponder on the mysteries of life.

It's a tough trade off because those thoughts are just important to you as the colour of the traffic lights, but our physical bodies have to stay in the physical & are subject to obeying the laws of society as well as physics. So extra care must be taken to ensure which tasks get priority. Robert also mentioned that if over activity is experienced or your physical life is suffering at the expense of your non physical life, stop all reading on OBE's, don't do any metaphysical tapes or cd's, concentrate on the physical life more & do all those boring things you need to do to get you back into the physical & grounded.

Good journeys in the physical mate

Mobius

Hi all

We might as well continue our discussions on the God/Creator subject as it is unlikely an entirely religous perspective will be put forth, not that it's a problem if someone does.

For a few thousand years now we have all been wondering about a God, Gods or a creator & have looked towards religous institutions & the pious for answers, in modern times we have science as well as religous institutions telling us how things are, with no-one having any concrete evidence & we are still no closer to any truths.

Three basic view points stand today, none with any real evidence; (a) Creationism  (b) Evolution  (c) Alien intervention.

Before I start, I just want to point out what I said in my last post, I don't have any of the answers to any of this, but my curious nature prevents me from accepting anything just because it's in print or someone of authority said so, I am not against anyone's beliefs but my own.

Creationism : First of all there is the premise that a singular God exists, coming into existence with complete omniscience, multi- dimensional vision & all it's needs for sustanance were met instantly. Since there is no proof & we will never realistically get it, there is no point re-quoting religous text that have dubious beginnings & no proof anyway, just hearsay.

Sounds like our old God mate is quite a scientist, but never went to his lectures on morals & ethics it seems. It could create our universe instantly, the earth came next & in a six day period it created light, even though it allready created the universe, minus the sun it seems. It also created every orgainism on the planet in 6 days? hmmm. It seems that if we had an all knowing God, it wouldn't have the need to learn through experience. Adam was created & apparently Eve out of him, even though biologically in the womb we all start out as women, hence the nipples & males evolve out of the female blueprint. Straight away there was a problem as eve ate an apple, which was forbidden fruit, a flaw in the system allready! Then Cain is allowed to kill his own brother & somehow finds a wife in a land that was supposed to be empty but for them, other Gods handy work?

Then there was the Satans who liked earth women so much they HAD them & created giants, which were deemed abominations & the satans were expelled to earth & motality. The Soddom & Gammorhea incident, why let a homosexual city come into existence & then send messengers to destroy it? Wouldn't God have that power & forsight itself, without needing others to do the dirty work?

I have to cut this short as something has come up, but I will expand more on the Creationism/ Evolution/ Alien Intervention theories later, until then.

Good journeys all

Mobius