Messages

It just feels like the exit techniques he recommends undo all the energy and meditation work I do during each practice session, so it almost feels detrimental to what I'm trying to achieve. I'm not sure if that's how it's supposed to be or if I'm doing something wrong, or if his methodology isn't the right one for me.

If I understand what is happening to you correctly when you try exit techniques given by Robert it is as if you actually "bring yourself more to the surface", i.e. the technique seems more "external" than the meditation you are doing. Correct me if I'm wrong (it's difficult to understand these things via writing).

If that's the case, yes, you are doing something wrong. Try to keep the silenced, inward feeling you have when you meditate while doing the exit techniques. Don't let you "raise up" from that feeling. I say "raise" because it actually feels as if you are "stepping up" from a more internalized status.

Probably when you do exit techniques you associate the effort with the physical body without understanding it, sort of like moving the lips while reading. This is often the case at beginning, especially when exists a strong feeling (many times not conscious) that the self is intimately associated with the body, and especially with seemingly "physical" efforts techniques (as it is point-shift or rope). Mantras helps a lot in this case, as going high in Pranayama. Also, if problems of these sorts persists, do some of the exercises in the writing I told you, specifically trying to "feel" the "astral" body arms and legs moving while keeping still the physical body, they helps a lot to disassociate the two when you do those techniques.

Remember that also if you think that you are better doing something else that it's closer to your nature, it is actually a very good thing that you are confronting yourself with these troubles. They are extremely useful to overcome or you will never be able to produce a full awareness of the "other" body and it will always be a little intermingled with the physical. So, redouble your efforts, and also if you think that what you are doing is not close to your nature, do it with all your will just for that. It will be of immense help for you in future (and also in what you are trying to achieve).

[3. Meditation is not enough, you have to practice visualization.]

3. Meditation is not enough, you have to practice visualization. This is the most important part, meditation will relax your mind and energy, but visualizations will prepare the mind for the work required during OBE. Visualizations should be done before you go to try to OBE, and preferably in a seating position. An advanced occultist shared with me how to do it:

While visualization is an important skill to acquire (if you can come to a point of "seeing" an image as with open eyes then projection is easy, you just need to "merge" with the image) your particular example leaves a lot to be desired. Advanced occultist? You must be kidding, really. That is clearly from a Wicca (or it is a meditation on the alchemical plane, a thing a beginner should NEVER begin from), and it shows. Much better if you have to start somewhere is the Middle Pillar and the LBRP (but RB energizing of chakras do enough at beginning). That visualization is only a new-age gibberish (if it is an alchemical pathworking it is badly done). Apart maybe bring you to the mood it hasn't any sort of really interesting factor, nor from an esoteric and neither from a purely practical POW.

For the rest of the points I can only tell you this: diet an meat can really produce different results when high in Pranayama (breath control). For projection the impact is minimal.

I've read what you told me to, Psilibus, but yet you don't grasp what I'm saying.

We are talking here about children that while having "experiences" they are not trained in them. While a child can make wonderwul things, s/he must still be directed some way if you want to have clear results. Take for example chess, or music, or whatever form. Naturally every children can have a predisposition, but if this last is not nortured it will not come to any fruit.

Problem with AP or OBEs is that adults commonly don't know anything about them nor care about them, and in the majority of cases on the contrary if the child begins to experience something they will just give him/her psychiatric treatment (or better discard it fully as fantasy).

My "objective truth" in regard to the previous post was addressed instead to a child that has been trained a little in the field. In fact you quoted the term objective on the dictionary but yet you didn't look to well at a definition it seems, namely:

"b. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually: an objective appraisal."

I wrote:
"Still this is an OBJECTVIE truth that anyone can ascertain for themselves." (talking about how a child - trained - APPROACHES this experience).

So, you see, an objective truth. Naturally this objective truth could be too difficult for you to ascertain because you maybe don't have the means to do so, however it stil exists, either if you don't believe me. In fact I usually prefer people not believing me. However, as I said, this does't change a thing.

Selea... omg... first you call my beliefs flat out wrong then state your equally unfounded beliefs as fact.

My "beliefs" were demonstrated (to the best of my abilities here, naturally) with examples and motives why it is not as you said. Naturally you didn't (and haven't till now) replied to a single thing. You are doing as an ostrich, you just put your head in the sand just to not hear and believe just what you want. However remember that it's difficult to grow this way, either in your "methods" of approaching an experience.

I talked about fact because you were dismissing my opinion in favour of your own, which is down right insulting when we are discussing unprovable things.

Again, unprovable in a forum, but this you know much too well, isn't it? You are just going round and round with this silly argumentation and I believe you are intelligent enough to understand perfectly what you are doing. However I'm too, sorry for you.

Now you start talking all this objectivity stuff in AP, which is a subjective experience... Sorry, but nothing you have said changes my opinion of you, you are continuing to claim your opinions are objective facts...

Never wanted to change your ideas on the matter. Only tried to make you have a more open mind. As for the objective-subjective matter refer to my previous message to Psilibus. You are talking of different things as if they are the same, same as him.

Let me get this through your head, you're saying that anyone who doesn't have a gift will be LIMITED in what they are able to do compared to someone who has a gift. You're saying no matter how hard the person without a gift tries, they will never be able to be as good as the person who has a gift. You're putting those who don't have a gift as lowbie projectors that can experience but never as well as those who have a gift. You're basically making it seem like if they don't have a gift they won't be able to experience well enough, to the greatest that they can possible, while those who have a gift can do so easily. You're basically saying if they don't have a gift they will always be second rate. So I wonder, do you have a gift? and if you don't, maybe you should realize its because you haven't practiced enough.

Listen, or you try to comprehend what one wrote or please just stop replying to me, because either you are dumb or simply have a preconcepted way or reading what I write. Either way I don't have the time for these idiocies.

I told you only that people that know  how to transfer consciousness in a "form" without training (i.e. with a sort of "gift") approach the experience in another way. They don't have many of the self-impositions created by those that learn to do the same, for various motives (an intelligent people can understand what these differences are without me telling him/her).

I never said that "non-gifted" people can never reach the same experiences, only that their INITIAL approach is different. However I also said that this different APPROACH to the experience is not easy to overcome because the imposed structures are difficult to overcome. Does this mean that only "gifted" people can do the same? Never said that. I said only that INITIALLY they do things in a different way, i.e. the METHOD is different.

And btw, as I said in another thread (that you have read) while people that can transfer the consciousness without training have maybe a better time when it comes to overcome imposed obstacles on how to approach the experience they have many different obstacles to overcome and many times they are much more difficult to surpass than a simple approach to the experience. So are "gifted" people really gifted? No. Nature is always in equilibrum.

Do you understand now or I have to make a painting?

I still am wondering what type of objective "proof" can be managed. I'm not doubting it could be so, I just haven't heard the answer to my question. "watching a little child doing what we call "projection"" - I'm sorry but - WTF? Unless you can crawl into the mind of the child you have no freakin way of knowing what is going on in their little head. Sorry, but you don't.

You are talking of two different things as if they are the same. I was not talking about the "personal" experience a child can have, but HOW THE CHILD APPROACH THE SAME. This you can see with a little experiment. A little child approach the "method" in a total different way as we adults are accustomed to. First the child doesn't need many self-impositions on what works and what not. It is as if he already knows without a doubt that what you are talking about CAN be done. This changes completely the way the experience is approached. One of the differences is, in fact, that a little child needs at most a "daydream" focus of mind to project.

Again, don't believe it? Fine. Still this is an OBJECTVIE truth that anyone can ascertain for themselves. I'm not talking about what the child SEES OR DOES. I'm talking about how the child APPROACH the experience. Two different things, you see.

I'm watching my mama mastiff, Mathilda, dream right now. She's twitchin and whinin and apparently havin a ball. Is she projecting? In the astral doggy realm? Who knows, but I'll tell you that my observation is that she is responding to some internal stimuli. That's the best objective information I can confirm. She is definitely not "paralyzed", she moving all over the floor. LOL.

What the hell does this have with what I said is beyond me, really.

Talk of proof and evidence. How exactly do you provide proof or evidence of something that is almost entirely subjective? Just asking.

As I said this argument is not "totally" subjective as you think it. There are also "objective" truths to talk about. Problem is that it is impossible to ascertain them in a forum, but this I thought was a given fact. The only thing you can do here as "proof" are examples, nothing more.

However if you think a forum as a background to "teach" formally experiences or demonstrating facts I think one should be a bit silly. I'm using the "mean" in the best way I can. However, I repeat, there are also objective proofs. One of them in this case is watching a little child doing what we call "projection". Maybe many self-impositions and pretentions on what and what cannot be will be simply removed just by this little experiment. It's not that difficult, isn't it?

You know I was gonna rip ya a new one Selea (verbally), but the fact that you think you have proved anything by stating your opinions is laughable, and (trying not to be offensive) demonstrates a pretty feeble and closed minded attitude. I pity you, and nothing more needs to be said, you clearly do not understand simple logical argumentation. All you have stated is your opinion, if you honestly cant tell the difference between that and actual evidence based facts, then as I said, I need not say anything else to you, i can already tell its gonna be like arguing with a fundamental christian or perhaps a brick wall.

Omg, are you really trying to provoke me in a internet flame war? Try to comprehend what I write for god's sake instead of trying to insult me without either trying to grasp anything.

The evidence is in people that can do what you say. Do you understand it? A little child can do the same. It is this not evidence for you? If it isn't then TRY to find it for yourself. I didn't tell you to believe me, only to try to have a more open mind on what can or cannot work, only this.

If you don't believe it's possible to "project" in an awake status then fine, however I brought you some examples that you neither replied to. You can believe them maybe not "factual" truth, but how can I prove in that way to you in an internet forum? Be serious please, what you ask is beyond intelligence, and what's worse you have the presumption of trying to teach me what it means.

I told you that are history cases that demonstrated that what you say is wrong. Maybe you don't believe them, fine. I told you that there are many cases where people find themselves with "remote viewing" capabilities while perfectly awake. Don't believe them the same, fine too. However remember then that if you want more "proof" than this you are in the wrong place to ask. Either understand this or try to reply using the same method of discussion, a thing you naturally haven't do in the smallest way since you didn't reply to anything at all of what I said but just discarded it fully as if you are "superior" and not interested in "empyrical" evidence, a thing that it's obvsiously the only thing you can have here, and that, btw, it's the only thing YOU can offer, with the difference that I'm open to your discussion on the matter (of whatever form it may be) while you aren't, it seems, or pretend something that it's beyond the scope of the same.

Either try to understand where we are or try to comprehend that not everyone telling that you are wrong is insulting your ego.

this is very self limiting, I guess we should all give up projecting because we'll never be as good as someone who has a gift. /end Astralpulse forum, I'll let adrian know we have to shut it down now, no one post anymore unless you have a gift because you're of a lower origin to Selea. This is the stupidest idea I've ever seen you communicate. This forum is not here so you can put ideas in people's heads that they won't amount to anything.

Or you have a problem of comprehension or maybe I stated something wrong, whatever it is. I never stated one needs a "gift" to have some experiences, I only stated that people that can do these sort of things automatically do it in another way, and that's actually also in a perfectly "awake" status. What's so wrong about that?

Thank you Xanth. Im getting tired of people saying Im wrong for giving my opinion, yet backing up their claims with nothing but their opinion? I guess some people dont understand logical argumentation.

That was not my opinion. I gave you a "proof" of the fact. It is only that you decided to discard what you simply didn't like.

While these "things" have many things of a subjective nature, there are also objective matters that pertains to them. This is one of them. There are people that have the "gift" of being able to tranfer the consciousness in other "forms". These people do things differently from people that learned how to do it. The difference in this case is that they can do it either while in an "awake" status.

You can naturally believe what I say or not, however at last consider that maybe what you think possible or not is a self-imposition.

Are you guys literally incapable of comprehending what Im saying? You talk in your projections just as its possible to talk in your sleep uncounciously, notice you say you "wake up" in paralysis, this is because your are paralyzed during the projection, obviously. You guys are gonna actually have to provide some evidence before you exclaim that I am flat out wrong. You honestly think talking and moving slightly is evidence? You do that while your alseep normally too! So, just as Selea said, I will also say, you are both wrong, and then provide no additional evidence except my opinions to back it up. Good day.

I already told you why you are wrong. A child can do what I said easily given the opportunity to do so. I don't want to talk about personal experiences because they can or cannot mean anything at all for you, but what I'm saying you can acknowledge for yourself if you are interested in it.

Then tell me, do you consider walking also a "paralysis" case? Because I know a person that can "project" while walking for example. As for talking and moving slightly in a real "paralysis" you cannot move, usually. If you talk about "paralysis" it's not the same as talking about trance (or at last not in all "forms" of trance) for example. You are mixing a bit terms, it seems.

Anyway, if you talk expressedly about "trance" (instead of full paralysis) I already told you that a little child can "project" easily in a just "daydream" focus of mind. There are many people that can do the same after years of training. "Projecting" while in a totally normal status is difficult to achieve for people that train themselves in these things, because their approach is different. However those that know already how to do it can do the same. There are many examples of these sorts of people: Alfredo Roi, Austin Osman Spare, the late Swedenborg, etc.

As I said there are various ways to do an OBE or AP, and various degrees of the same. Also "normal" people can sometimes do what is called "remote viewing" in a completely "normal" state of consciousness.

I also now see much more validity to Robert Bruce's AP model (mind-split effect, energy doubles, etc.). It's just a matter of focusing my conscious awareness in those other bodies. I still don't quite understand how all of Robert Bruce's model fits in with Robert Monroe's focus levels, but I do feel like they're both "right".

They are two different approachs on the same thing. The RB (sarcasm naturally, let's really say the Golden Dawn and esoteric approach in general) uses the approach of transferring the consciousness in "other" bodies. These bodies are created in other planes, so the exercise of transferring the consciousness in them actually switches the focus in those other planes (that can be the astral or etheric, RB usually only approaches the etheric plane).

The RM method does the same, only without the "bodies". The consciousness is transferred "inward" in other planes in the same way. It is only that the experience of another "body" to bring the consciousness in is not created at first.

Both have advantages and disavantages. The RM (and FK) phasing approach is naturally much easier for beginners. The advantage of the esoteric method is that the creation of the "other" body acutally creates a perfect memory of the "other" body in the other planes, and this can have distinct impact in the experience. Another advantage is that the switch of consciousness after intensive training becomes automatic when the intent to transfer the consciousness in the "other" body is formulated.

The problem of the Robert Bruce approach on the esoteric method is that he doesn't actually explain how this "other" body is really created. Reality is that memory create "forms" in other planes. But without a real approach on creating this "other" body its existence is not easily felt.

If you really want to follow the esoteric approach I suggest you to follow the discipline of the creation of the Body of Light given in the Theoricus grade (2 = 9) of the Golden Dawn (you find it in http://www.scribd.com/doc/17856343/Golden-Dawn-29-Creation-and-Development-of-the-Body-of-Light a bit adulterated, but anyway fine). There you will find the way the feeling of the "other" body is created in the other plane. With it the transfer of consciousness is much easier and the experience of much more impact than how RB explains it. Robert tried to do the same (in a much smaller scale) with its "awareness hands" that actually creates only a part of the body to be felt clearly, but it's naturally NOT the same thing.

Sure, it requires a lot of work, but remember, this "preliminary" work is actually much more imporant than the "method" of exit in itself, for various motives.

Selea.

Selea....
Possibly your response was good intentioned, but I think that all you've done is attempt to spread fear.....fear of the unknown, fear of the known, fear of other beings in creation and to spread a certain amount of negativity.

Think what you want, I don't care. However you have not replied to my question, that was the only thing important of all the message. You only concerned yourself with petty a petty ego battle and discarded the most important part, namely: what it is that you "see"?

I've never brought you down, I never instilled you fear. I only told you to be attentive and not be controlled by the experience.

I don't live in fear anymore & haven't for awhile....it's nonproductive! As I have previously stated, I have no idea what your experience has been and you haven't elaborated on it, so we are left with conjecture!

Listen. I never feared anything in all my life. I never told you that you should have fear. I only told you to try to understand what you are "seeing". What this does have to do with fear? Having no fear and being controlled are two separate things, believe it or not. You can think that what I say is only conjecture if that does good to you at this moment. I only told you a thing that maybe one day you will understand, maybe not.

Your responses seem nonsensical....so either your comprehension or knowledge is limited.....in any event, there have been plenty of other people who have responded and given very valid suggestions. There are some really knowledgeable people on this forum and I appreciate their input immensely!

So let me guess. If people tell you you are doing all well and what you do is extremely correct then they are knowlegeable. If instead someone else elaborates clearly why you are putting yourself open to trouble but his point of view doesn't coincide with what you think it means that this person is an idiot. Good to know.

Sorry, no, you haven't a problem of ego brought upon you by the experience, you are right. I was wrong, you see. What I told you are all lies.

As far as taking things personally.....your attack on me was personal and I defended myself.

I never attacked you personally. This is how you see it. I only told you that I know the trouble one is open to in these moments. I told you that it's better to learn to control and test what one sees. You said to me that you know perfectly what you are "seeing". Yet it seems to me that you didn't reply to my question on what exactly what you "see" is.

Why people cannot go beyond these little things sometimes and focus on objective things instead of taking everything as a personal insult to their ego?

So, let's agree to disagree.....if I'm in need of any additional information from you, I'll contact you!
Thank you [/i]

Right. Just for interest I will quote you a passage of a lecture given by the G.D. about these things. Maybe you will listen more to these people since they are more knowledgeable than me (sarcasm intended naturally).

"These natural clairvoyants are considered dangerous inasmuch that they open portals to energies far beyond their limits of control. These energies may come in forms that may be seemingly positive changes in one's life or positive growth, where in fact it is nothing more than a stumbling block that will not only affect them in years to come, but also affect those surrounding them."

Best regards,
Selea.

Well, despite what people choose to believe, I believe in the "trance state" you are still paralyzed, despite what you want to call this state. It is obvious that paralysis is required for projection, as your body would act in the manner of your astral body and wake you up, like the body's paralysis as a natural protection from movement during dreams, it is required to shut your body off for projections as well. It is paralysis despite what people say.

You are wrong. You are so convinced that you can only "project" if the body is in a paralysis state that you cannot do it elsewhere. However I understand that's not your fault.

I tell you a little secret: the body needs only to be asleep for us adults because we have trained our consciousness to abide in the physical body only for a lifetime and the fact that it can abide somewhere else while "awake" is too beyond our doubts to be achievable (in reality with intensive training it can be done, but it requires years and years of deconstruction). A little child doesn't need all these lies. He can focus elsewhere in a moment, given the motivation to do so instead of being talked down.

This is our damnation for the time being. Retrieve our status as newborns again, deconstructing all external impositions. Paralysis needed to transfer the consciousness is one of them, believe it or not.

It's not misinformation as much as generalization.  Most people that are starting out find it almost impossible if they're not paralyzed (or at least disassociated from their bodies.)  With practice and getting used to the conditions comes projecting without paralysis- but it's not easy.

However, also in this case, the obstacle is self-imposed by the actual "method" used. If other means are used the paralysis is neither acknowledged and in many cases neither needed, also at beginning. There are many ways to obtain what is called an OBE or AP, and the sad truth is that many times beginners actually reading certain things create self induced obstacles and impositions.

This is one of those. What's worse is that actually trying to bringing on a "paralysis" is much more difficult than actually "leaving the body" in itself.

Selea....
I think that you are wrong on several levels......I don't think that you have understood my posts or perhaps I didn't write it clearly enough for you to understand. I don't think that I'm "special"...at least not in the way that you're expressing it. I'm a pretty normal person who probably had a certain amount of psychic ability to begin with and it grew as I became ready to handle it! Do I think other people can have the same experiences that I've had.....absolutely! I think that there's a connection to "higher realms" because I expressed a desire to "ascend" and that expression was done with a pure intention! Not to be better or special, just to improve my understanding of different realms of existence and perhaps for confirmation of their existence!

This is one of the motives why I don't usually reply to these sort of things, especially in internet. People take everything too personal. Suffice to say that you know for yourself what you feel, and I'm not imposing anything at all. Reread what you wrote, it's all there, either if you understand it or not. Maybe you will understand what I'm saying in future, maybe not.

I'm not really sure where you're going with this......I don't need this ability to be empowered! I'm a strong, intelligent & educated woman and I've survived quite well for many years without this ability! I'm not using this ability in a negative way...I don't hurt people, I don't wish them harm and actually I wish all people well & hope that they find fulfillment in their lives.

Whenever I told you that you are using this in a negative way? I only told you that you are not controlling the experience and without understanding it you are taking everything for granted. You can think this a bad thing or not. As I said there are a lot of people that like to be "brought by hand" by everything. I'm not one of them.

And I am seeking the truth, but not necessarily in the way that you have ! You stated that even in the  "occult" or "esoteric" practice that we need the scientific approach.....the problem with that sort of absolute statement, is that there is no definitive objective proof of what we all individually experience, which is part of the "scientific method"! And in the psychic realm......it's just not a scientifically measurable experience...in other words, it's not objective, it's subjective! If it were objective, more scientists would be performing all sorts of test to prove the psychic experiences that we've had. The only area in the psy realm where verifiable data can be ascertained is in meditation, where the change in brain waves that occurs during meditation is significant!

You can think what you want, but believe me or not you are wrong. There are objective realities also in these things, and a lot. Testing things is a way to understand this, in time, as going to every plane and visit every "sphere". It requires a lot of effort, but there are not only subjective things to behold. As for "science" not be able to prove anything: the small part of "scientific" people that try to approach the thing testing this or that anyway don't like to do this or that. They like only to go on a direction and then mistake the X with the Y, thinking they understood the truth, whatever that means, knowing only a part of the whole. Same mistake done by religion in the past, only with a different point to start from. The approach is totally different, practice becomes the same, in the end.

Anyway at last you have a good "view" of the experience. It was much worser if you thought what you saw as empirical evidence of something.

As far as my experiencing a "fase",.... during the year that this experience has been occurring, the experience has not been at a standstill, it has been progressing forward as I'm able to handle it. And yes, in time I will have better control over it and no, the experience is not controlling me, although it seems from your response that you're experience "controlled" you! I'm sorry about that! Many people can't gauge how to view my experience, because it is unusual and not the norm and my reason for posting in this forum was to see if other people have had the same experience & to compare notes....if you will!

Also if you don't understanding it you are being controlled by what is happening to you. It is all written in what you have said till now. Everybody is controlled by the experience at first, you are not the first nor will be the last. I was controlled? Sure I was. Until you will not understand it you will be too, believe what I say or not.

As far as "not knowing what's around me"......I'd be willing to bet the farm that I have a pretty good idea of what's around me......I can see it when my eyes are closed......remember! As I've stated before....I have no idea what your negative experience was and it obviously left a definitive impression on you. Hopefully, you'll be able to transcend it....
Take care.....[/i]

So, tell me what's around you? I'm curious. You don't test it, you don't acknowledge from where what you "see" comes from. You don't try to ascertain the objectivity or the "plane" the things are from. You can believe all these things unnecessary, maybe, but yet, we return at the same question: will you have a stranger enter your house without knowing who he/she is? I think not. Then why you are doing the same here? Do you think that just because these "things" are not physical they are uneventful?

Anyway sorry if I replied to this matter. I know that it is difficult to talk of these things in internet. I shouldn't have. It is only that I know where these things can bring one if not controlled and I wanted to give you an advice. Take it for what it is or discard it fully.

Best regards,
Selea.

Maybe managing is making you try too hard again. It seems to be the biggest obstacle; trying too hard. The closest I've come to projecting, and actually feeling myself getting lifted out of my body - it's happened when I was on the brink of sleep, once I'm nearly out of it and would have stopped 'trying'. And in those moments, it feels like all the silly things I do to 'try' and project are all so physical they really have nothing to do with the actual process itself.

However that "trying too hard" is what brings you to the experience. Letting go is an important part, but the subconscious must be trained somewhat. In reality the most important work in all these disciplines is what it seems at first sight unimportant. One thinks for example that "exit" techniques are the most important aspect of the work, instead is the "previous" work, or what the "exit" techniques trains that it's important, not the same.

If you don't do anything at all you can "let go" how much you want, it will not happen, at last if your subconscious isn't already trained on how to bring the consciousness in that other "bodies" for various motives. However for the majority of people this connection must be build.

This is one of the motive for example why people try for 4-5 months and then one day they discover to their amazement that they can do it without understanding really what's changed. Usually this happens after a period of time where everything seems to not work at all and you are on the verge of giving up. The usual "IAO" formula. And sometimes people mistakes what's really happen for "letting go". While it is true in part is not the full reality of what's really happening.

...when you read the instructions in liber o it says "Let him imagine his own figure as enveloping his physical body, or standing near to and in front of him. 3. let him then transfer the seat of his consciousness to that imagined figure, so that it may seem to him that he is seeing with its eyes, and hearing with its ears. This will usually be the great difficulty of the operation. "
now in hindsight this sounds very similar to the monroe techniques and many others, so maybe it is real astral projection.but when one reads many magical records the people are not lying or relaxing but sitting or standing in 'god forms/poses' and thus i fail to see how they could be projecting, and their records sound similar to imaginings.

so is magical projection the same? any ideas or comments would be very enlightening.

Sorry if I'm a bit late on replying this, I've seen it only now.

In the records you talk of the magicians are using what is called "eroto-comatose lucidity". It is a state of trance brought upon sexual esaustathion. Btw, there's absolutely no need to be lying or sitting to transfer the consciousness on the body of light. With continued experience you can switch focus to it anytime, relaxation comes automatically, the physical body (or better the subconscious) learn to do it automatically. What Crowley doesn't explain in his Liber O and elsewhere is however how the body of light is formed. He explained it orally to students. So you miss a part of the picture and it is the motive why you cannot understand why this can work.

Anway with the Body of Light you can have both an "etehric" or "astral projection", it depends on what plane you transfer the body. Crowley wasn't interested in the "eterich" plane because there's nothing really interesting going on there, so he focused primarly on the astral plane, above all on meeting what he called "other" beings with a true intelligence of their own.

Best regards,
Selea.

"Mind awake-body asleep" methods have been around forever and appear extensively in astral projection literature, Im just trying to bring that to people's attention before they make such unwarranted statements.

Actually not. It is only lately that this concept has been used and "methods" provided to go with it. Authors of before were smarter, in fact. Usually trying to trigger this particualr state for beginners only hinders their efforts (in the majority of cases). It is only lately that authors started to trying to explain "methods" that requires first this state to being brought because they tried to explain what they passed through and to let others understand the same without willingly they imposed something that actually prevents success in most cases.

Think about it, if you want to switch focus from the physical body do you think the best way is focus on it trying to making it going to sleep? I know that people sometimes wants to be intricate, but it is a little nonsensical.

As I said before often it is better to say less to achieve more. Ancient authors never talked about "mind awake/body asleep" (while knowing it very well) because trying to forcing the state often brings only a focus to the physical body, and that's the wrong way to do it at beginning.

The BoL, Skrying in the Spirit Vision, Rising the Planes, etc. are all ancient methods that makes no reference whatsoever to the body asleep/mind awake state. It is difficult to tranfer the consciousness away from the physical body if what you have done till then is only to focus on the same. Or you can bring on the state quite easily for yourself fast, or it is better to discard the same altogheter, also because it comes naturally if you just focus your consciousness away from it.

I'm becoming considerably convinced that one doesn't have to be physically paralyzed to shift their conscious awareness.  One merely has to shift their awareness away from this particular focus.  I've done this, albeit only with the imagination thing... if you want to know details, I was actually in the bathroom at the time.  ROFL  I won't go into anymore detail than that. LOL

Actually you are right. You don't absolutely need to have sleep paralysis to project, that is a misinformation. I can for example project in my "Body of Light" and move my physical body if I want to (it requires effort, but it is feasible). While the body must be asleep, the amount of this "sleep" can vary a lot.

Sorry, moved.

Selea.....
Initially, this experience really frightened me.....I didn't ask or request it to happen! And, I still don't know exactly why it's happened. Maybe I abused my psychic abilities in another life time and this is the "penance" or karma, if you will, that I need to pay! I do know that I can't shut it down....I've tried and nothing really works!

It will come in time. You are experiencing a fase. Everybody comes to it one time or another. You have come to it without doing nothing consciously, but everybody doing certain things will come to this point. You see, you think that you are "special". It is this sort of thought that it's dangerous. As I said, I've been there. I know what you are going through. You think you have nothing more, you say you are not special than others, yet you feel you have something more none the less, inside you. This happens yet more in your case, if you sort of receive this "gift" (as people calls it). If one works towards it the feeling is much subsided since in that case you know that everybody can do the same, given the right willpower to do so.

You already know in realtity how to close or filter what you "see", you are already doing it before going to bed, you said it to me, so you know how to do it, it is only that you like the feel of "power" it gives, the sense that you are "different". No matter if you ask "God" or whatever you call it, nonetheless you don't know what's around you. You don't test it nor acknowledge from where it comes forth. Also this is a typical inconvenience of people that found they can do these things without understanding why. I was one at beginning, yet I've learned the bad way that I had to approach this "gift" differently, and that in reality I was only a self-deluded idiot most of the time.

You see, either in the most "occult" or "esoteric" practice there must always be a sort of "scientific" approach or you are asking for a lot of self-delusion. Learning to control the experience doesn't mean that you fear it, nor does it mean that it is bad to be "open" all the time. It is done as a way to controlling the experience instead of being controlled by it. At the beginning this is most important, above all if you are experiencing it without understanding truly what's happening to you.

Please understand well why I'm telling you this. It is not to bring you down or sto say that you are doing something wrong. I've only seen something in my experience and I would like that others following the same path doesn't have to endure all the mistakes I've done in the past.

Best regards,
Selea

And also, please note these posts by Frank:

"...So now my projections are a million percent more controllable and all I have to do is lie back in a comfortable position and imagine myself drifting upwards."

and

"If you can just let that rising sensation continue, it will mainly be automatic from then on. As you feel that rising, chances are you will begin to see all kinds of mental imagery. Stray energy, colours, shapes, anything. In other words, there will be lots of distractions that will almost certainly snap you back at first."

You see, Frank arrived at the same steps that are explained in the BoL technique, mainly switching awareness with the sensation of rising. Actually it is one of the most easy thing to do for beginners that can actually be modified *after* one has understood and internalized the trick. The problem is that if you try to explain to a beginner the thing without any tricks, s/he will not be able to do it. At first it is needed. You can understand only what it is known to your perception till now, all you see, hear, known is filtered by your experience.

Crowley stressed that all the process is in reality a thing extremely easy to do, and in fact it is true, if approached in the right manner. Authors (unwillingly naturally) tends to create all sorts of obstacles trying to explain too much and trying to explain the "core". While in reality the "trick" of OBEs and AP are only the projection of consciousness (awareness) beyond the physical body, it is difficult to let a beginner understand really what this means, so, to do that, experience has told that the "feeling" of rising is one (if not) the best, coupled with an exteriorazation outside the physical. Phasing is, another "method" to do these transference of consciousness, awareness, focus.

Anyway as I said in the first post there are also other motives why creating a so called "Body of Light" has a different purpose. But these are advanced things. Suffice to say that this "other" body actually can become quite real after intensive use and be used for many things.

I have no idea what it is, I'm inclined to think it is a chakra. I don't do chakra work so I wouldn't know. It is something I can feel in the back middle of my head and "energize" or increase focus on. When I increase focus on it I get rushes through out my body that are so intense I feel like I'm going to die if I increase them to anymore of an extent. Even now I can feel it and focus more on it.. I'm just not sure its safe or not to push it to its max as when I do it feels like I'm about to force myself out of my body or something due to the amount of seemingly insane pressure it creates. Also in my head it feels like its silently roaring.

LOL, don't be afraid, go on, dare.  

Apart jokes, you are experiencing a little what is called "kundalini" awakement. You can read it in the internet if you are curious about it. You don't need expressedly to do what is called chakra work for it to happens. Everythinng you do (concerning your "etheric body") is chakra work.

People are going to make you more confuse. This sort of question is not supposed to ask in a public forum. You need a master.

While a "master" can phsycologically help, these states are only to be experienced and affronted by the individual. In reality one should not try to go on until one has the experience known as the "knowledge of his guardian angel" (whatever that means). That is the only guide one needs, the rest is in reality useless.

While you can call up the state with other means, or it can arise by itself the thing must never been approached lightly. It is the duty of the individual to known if s/he is ready or not and accept whatever may come.

In any case it's not a walk in the park, no need to lie. However nothing is, neither a "real" walk in the park.