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One of the challenges and beauties of our life here on this planet is that there is so much we do not know and understand. I think a lot of the point would be lost if we knew. Our experience here is an adventure.

On a personal level, I don't want to ever fully understand everything. That would be too boring. Exploration is just too much fun!

What is that saying? It's not about the destination, it's about the journey there.

Hm... The last video he shared sums it up pretty much in a nutshell. Awestruck!

Boredom might be a reason beginnings were created and Consciousness injected itself into these simulation adventures.  

Another reason might be that it doesn't really understand where it came from and all these fractal-like simulations are its way of trying to discover the answer to that question.

I do not think that it is boredom which compels certain biological creatures to reach for the stars because there is an obvious adventure to be had  out in the Galaxy and eventually we will simply run out of things to discover on this planet and we utilize the resource on this planet to make that future real.
It is more the challenge to overcome our limitations.


In the case of this thread topic, it is not about understanding everything - it is about understanding the relationship Consciousness has with the physical universe and what it is able to do with this universe.

It is not too hard to understand that Consciousness already knows everything about this universe from the perspective of Observer even before it worked to create biological instruments so that it could be a participator.

Interstellar exploration cannot be done effectively with biological instruments.  What is needed is something more hardy, less needy and - in the case of our particular specie evolution, by experiencing the human form with all its collective data, compassion, understanding, empathy - these things are advantageous to 'Our' Collective Consciousness in relation to that moving into this next phase - merging with the machinery as it were - moving from needing the biological instrument and in appreciation for the necessary bridge it was.

'Personal levels' won't be an issue.  These are inventions of individual human experience and are taken with you wherever you go, even as you understand AP-ing - very subjective, very personal.

The other aspect of AP-ing is the frequent calling for others who can also AP to 'meet up' and have the experience together.  This is quiet a natural impulse or desire because it is at the heart of Consciousness - even when fragmented into countless individuation the core impulse is that which recognizes the holistic nature of its being and desires a configuration which behaves as a whole thing, even as it parts work their separate roles.

It is the principle reason the world has developed civilizations from the scatterings of cultural families, as surely as the reason for the decline of these civilizations is the human inability to allow consciousness its most natural state of being, through the collective specie called 'humanity' - politics, religion, culture, beliefs, families, organisations, corporations, patriotism, philosophies, - all devices which are used to keep humanity separate from itself are all part of why civilizations decline and why Consciousness cannot work effectively with this biological form.

Ultimately it does not matter, because while the drama unfolds through the separating systems there is still an aspect which has learned to work together toward a particular goal setting aside  and working around those things which are counter productive and Consciousness supports that and protects it from the more irrational separatist behavior of base human ignorance, pride, greed, boredom and what have you.

The destination can be surmised, but the journey is the focus, and what might be experienced and learned and that data accessible to the wider Consciousness which resides outside the physical universe.

Once the 'awe' settles down the work proceeds.  There is little doubt that Awe will play its part along the way - and I would think it is a far better propellant than boredom.

I think you nailed it will. This must be why I keep responding to your posts!!

While I see the funny side [whats your name?] your responses here are motivated by something else.

But I can run with that, as the saying goes.

For you at this time, this experience of life on earth is a school for learning whatever you want to learn.

For me it is the same, except that what I want to learn is whatever I can.

Some things I have learned to unlearn...like 'who I am'...

But anyway - the following is about the thread topic.

From a purely physical reference point 'we' are Consciousness - that which identifies itself as "I AM" - we can look back over our continued existence and see our 'mind-print' like a wake of a ship behind us. We are the ship, the ghost in the machine, and we have already created something greater than our individual selves. We are reaching to leave this earth behind and set sail in machinery which will become our new body. From there we will add to that body from the resources.


It tends to look like Consciousness is not even what we understand it to be - I get the impression that as we evolve to understand ourselves as that which is within the form, remove the superstition of belief systems, engage more and more with our technological creations and understand that we are all truly 'One Thing' = "Consciousness" we will also see the pattern that we have done this before - we created the human instrument as a means to achieve what we are achieving...

If you have the time watch the film Comedown.
This depicts the argument of are we ready?
The attitude within will not easily be eradicated.
Very unfortunate.

Is this the film you are referring to Szaxx?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1376168/

It doesn't make us grow but it allows us to. It gives us the ability to really understand cause and effect.

Consciousness already understands cause and effect.

This doesn't have to be a bad thing just because it is true. In order to grow, we need to experience all the pain and suffering. Without these experiences, a consciousness has no way to relate.

How can we know what it means to feel really good if we do not know what it means to feel truly bad. A utopian world may be great for those currently existing in a physical form but they are being shortchanged on experiences need to grow.

So to focus the point, Consciousness is not what needs to relate.  It is involved with all biological species in this universe, and is intimate with feelings and pain and suffering.
What you are speaking of has to do more with some kind of addiction to pain and suffering in the name of learning.  It may even be an excuse to keep things the way they are, but whatever the reason, it is not something Consciousness needs to learn, although you within your identity with the human form and condition, may have need to learn it.

 

See the point of the thread is the observation of where Consciousness is going in relation to this universe.

The only way this future will be avoided (in relation to human beings on planet earth at least) is if human beings for one reason or another become extinct.

That wont stop Consciousness from doing this because the math suggests it is already doing it - it is the way all biological species which become technological to the point where they create ways of moving away from their home planet and explore the interstellar neighborhood.

It is natural, in relation to Consciousness and the physical universe.

This doesn't have to be a bad thing just because it is true. In order to grow, we need to experience all the pain and suffering. Without these experiences, a consciousness has no way to relate.

How can we know what it means to feel really good if we do not know what it means to feel truly bad. A utopian world may be great for those currently existing in a physical form but they are being shortchanged on experiences need to grow.

Consciousness is able to relate.  Consciousness is growing within its experience but is not limited to the human form or condition.
It can just as easily have the form of a planet.

Utopia is not necessary - a fair and just and equal system would do.  But anyway, that was then and this thread isn't about that.

Just to be clear, I do not have any idea of who or what God is or isn't. I understand why we as humans have formed the idea of there being a God but it has not served humanity as a whole, any real good.

Somebody or something created all of this but I don't think that necessarily makes them a God just like I don't believe my parents are God's for creating me physically.

And as far as identifying with being human, I don't see that as a bad thing. What's the point and how can we grow and learn if we don't identify ourselves with our current form.

You see it as settling for less, I see it as owning up to my end of the deal.

Well you mentioned 'god' so I kept with that naming of it.  It is the common word or name for 'creator' but really we are it.
It is not the form which makes us 'grow'.  It is not 'less' it is just not our real identity.

I think I agree with you. If you mean that we collectively form God, then yes I agree. But God as an abstract singularity has all the power concentrated and I will never be able to identify myself as having all that power concentrated in myself. It is proven everyday that we as individuals have no real control over anything. Control, like the physical world is just an illusion.

Therein is your main obstacle.  You identify yourself as being 'Human' - It is not about 'control' - GOD is not about control - that is a human conception which has been used to 'dress'- up 'what god is' a costume concept which has no relationship to what GOD actually is.

We don;t 'collectively form god' - we are GOD because we are Consciousness...and until we understand that this is our true identity, we can only fail at BEING GOD. 

It doesn;t even matter where you find yourself - what universe, what reality - IF you have the presence of understanding your 'I AM' as being 'Joe the human having fun in astral land' (for example) you have missed the mark as to who you are.  You have settled for something you are not.

Like an actor playing a part...

Nope, every new technical advance gets used first in Military applications, then for Control techniques.

I listened to a guy that spoke just like this, but he was on Coast to Coast AM. I went to his website and posted a simple question. I asked where Ethics is held in his equations. On his site you can a question, but then a Moderator decides what should go on or not.

I went back a few days later and saw that my question was not posted. He didn't want anything negative posted, like Ethics for example  . He just wanted us to drink the Koolaid and "sign on the dotted line".

  Once we change our mindsets on what's important and what isn't, then and only then can I see a bright future ahead for Humanity!

  I see that you posted your view there Wi11iam. 

Where?

Yes ethics is important Lionheart and in relation to technology of this sort, I doubt it will work without ethics.  Sounds like you did watch the vid - is it that you don;t see ethics in what Jason is saying?
The thing about 'what is important and what isn't' is that there are different povs about this subject.  I am coming from the pov of 'what consciousness is doing in relation to this universe which transcends the human drama - the arguments about what is important.'

Mind control is an interesting subject but exactly what is it you are saying?  That we will lose our 'free will'?  Is it not 'free will' which helps keep us separate, because someone uses theirs to make $$ off the backs of those who use theirs to step in line?

We are moving away from biological form and into a less 'needy' one.  Most of our problems stem from the needs of biological bodies.  They have been a necessary bridge from where we came from and to where we are going.

The only real ethic we need to adopt is to recognize our equality as Consciousness.  It seems the human form is incapable of seeing things this way (in general) - indeed you had a lot to do with me seeing things this way.  I once thought it were possible for human beings to work things out and build a better system for everyone.  You told me that my heart was in the right place but unfortunately it was a dream (or words to that effect.)

Eventually I had to agree with you - because it was the same response I was getting from a variety of individuals from different and sometimes even opposing povs...even from hard line sceptics - so all these different aspects who don;t normally agree with each other, agreed with each other on the point that human beings are not going to get their act together and wise up and create a workable plan of action.

But..well Consciousness isn't ruled by human beings and their dramas...it - obviously is capable of working with but also allows the ego whatever the ego deems important, ethical or not.

And if not, then it can work around the ego and leave the bulk of humanity to its ego induced fate - as per free will ...

Me - I just want to assist Consciousness with its explorations in this universe free from the drama of ego based bull-dung.

I find that to be central to being Ethical.

We are GOD.

Now all that is required is for you to work that out to the point where faith is no longer required.

Start with the fact that in order to have ANY kind of identity, you need Consciousness.

Work on what it is about your sense of self identity which insists you are not (or cannot be) GOD.

This is where human beings are heading...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&list=UUiL3S6IS15fYdcNS8HOn2cw&v=PjpC6GmeLGI&feature=endscreen

To Wi11iam .            On evidence of reincarnation ,  there is a boy that had memories of having died in ww2 as a fighter pilot .  He had knowledge of aircraft at that ( mid 40s ) and had night mares of having died from a fire during a crash landing on an air craft carrier .  As I remember the story he knew his wifes name and some of his famly .  The story is on the net , I can post links if asked. desert rat  
p.s. If any has not heard a e.v.p. it can be some of the freekiest audio to hear .  I dont know if it is realy proof , but it can sound strange .  

DR

Reincarnation obviously came about as a belief system for reasons which do include what you have spoken of here.

However, there are models around which explain why this is so, which I find are just as plausible.
Tom Campbells model incorporates the belief system of reincarnation.  However, this process comes from something called the 'Individual Unit Of Consciousness' whose dominant reality is the non physical.

According to that model, the IUOC uses physical life packages to learn how to lower its entropy and this IUOC is essentially who 'you' are - rather than the different life packages it experiences.

Upon dying, the data of that experience is examined and another life package chosen to continue the process and hopefully learn what previous life packages did not learn.

In this way the ego experiencing each life package gets to experience longevity, but as a process it seems woefully inadequate for the purpose of lowering entropy.  As a model it tends to pamper the ego as it were...what ego doesn;t want to live continuously?

Another model I know of explains the IUOCs as simply 'entities' which are focused upon the physical - even obsessively - like a kid who cannot drag himself away from a computer game.

These entities are able to experience life packages simultaneously and are not limited to linear time, so they can play a variety of packages in different points along a time line.

Sometimes the life packages experience 'spill-overs' from these other life experiences which are happening simultaneously.  The experiences are so real for the incarnate consciousness that they believe they must have lived another life in another time.

Either of these two models can explain 'reincarnation' as simple data of experience which leak into each other.  Your own life package data of experience may even leak into someone else's, and they will believe that they have lived your life.

Again - as I continue to suggest - it is all about self identity.  So you think you have lived a number of lives... which of these is truly who you are?

The correct answer has to be 'none of them' but also 'all of them' and by 'them' I do mean every single life package that has every existed.

If that is too much for the old grey matter to digest, not to worry.  The easiest way to accept the possibility is to treat everyone as yourself - an aspect of yourself - regardless of whether they know it or not.

Do not deify any personality no matter that they are even obviously wiser and more knowing than your present self identity and neither demonize that which is obviously beneath your present sense of integrity - chances are that we have all been there and done that 'in another life package'.

Above all, do not accept that you are even altogether the sum total of the spectrum of demon (devil) to angelic (god) and everything between because that is part of a loop system which is tied intricately to duality (good/evil dark/light/ hot/cold/ male/female/ etc)

We are these things, but we are so much more than just these things.

[as]

Yep. That's exactly why there really is plenty of proof that exists. Because so many people are finding ways to gather objective evidence to support the subjective experience.

Don't forget. In the American judicial system, somebody saying that they saw something is considered evidence that something occurred. Sadly, it is all that's needed in some cases.

But it seems as though you may have a subconscious need to counter every statement or point that someone makes. It's understandable but I'm not trying to prosecute anybody in a court of law nor am I trying to convince someone to see things as I do.

Thanks again. You may be the reincarnation of Mr. Steinbeck after all. But that's meant as a compliment.

1: First sentence seems a little oxymoron - can you expand upon this concept for clarification?

2: The American judicial system in relation to verbal evidence is not a good example of working with proof as the evidence is most likely corrupted (even inadvertently) but certainly the propensity for someone to 'bear false witness' is fairly high - a more scientific approach is always necessary.

3: It is not a need.  Little is known about the 'subconscious' and I suspect what is believed about it is based upon ego interpretation.  I counter that which can be countered in order to keep a balanced perspective.  I used to be young and impulsive.  Too quick to believe, too stubborn to let go. 

4:  I don't believe in reincarnation.  There is no evidence to support such belief.  When evidence about anything is shown to be true, there is no need for belief.  I can expand on this if you want.

[SAID]

Yeah, that's the point i was trying to get across to Menex. The proof that is out there is mostly all subjective but it is very compelling. So I was pointing out that this is something that must be seen to believe and know for yourself.

If ten people say they like the color blue, then it is only an objective fact that they SAID they like the color. No one can prove that they do or don't in fact like it regardless of what they say.

Yep

That is likely why there is not really plenty of proof out there that many of the things called "supernatural" do actually exist.

Thank you Will. You have an unusual talent of agreeing with the post that you are arguing against. The ability to pull this off is quite rare and is normally found in the work of some of the great literary masters.

You remind me of John Steinbeck and "The Grapes of Wrath" in particular.

Well I am not agreeing or disagreeing really.  Just sharing my own observations and in relation to evidence, I simply know that subjective experience does not count as objectify-able proof.

Menex, there is already plenty of proof out there that many of things we call supernatural do exist. Skeptics always find fault with the results because they tear apart the studies. Many scientists in these fields use standards that are way beyond the accepted level used in other sciences in order to call something true.

Healthy skepticism is good and needed. Skepticism in the face of logic and proof is just stubbornness brought on by a cultural belief.

So without doing this for yourself, there is nothing in the world that you can look at and decide that this is real. You have to do it yourself to believe.

I haven't seen any evidence myself about the plenty of proof.  Most stuff to do with the so-called 'supernatural' is subjective experience and subjective experience does not count as proof, except for the personality who has experienced it and for those who chose to believe them...belief though is not proof.  As I heard recently, 'Science is truth even if you don;t believe it'.

Tom Campbell suggests that there are ways to verify subjective evidence in an objective manner and says in his trilogy that when working with Monroe and others in the early days they did indeed compile lots of objective evidence but alas, its seems the evidence is not for the public.
He suggests that rather than simply take his or anyone else's word for it, that the individual needs to experience for themselves the 'reality' of this altered state of mind - however, even given that you could do so and discover for yourself, it is still rather apparent that all AP experience is subjective and thus not really evidence other than to the personality experiencing it.   

It seems to provide no real practical purpose in regard to this physical universe which at least is experienced so much more objectively than the non physical dimensions.

The general understanding is that we all AP as children because it is from that reality that we enter this and for a time it is quite natural but most grow away from this as the focus becomes more on the physical universe.

Some obviously don;t lose the natural ability.

Interesting for me is that a lot of reports regarding other places these sates of consciousness allow access to are often that they are untold better in all regards than this mere universe - yet something must compel the individual traveler to return to the mundane - just as surely as something must compel the AP-er to go experience better worlds etc...

BBT is as good as any.

Also the theory is that space is expanding so in that sense there is no 'outside' as there is with the balloon.

So everything is contained within the balloon which is ever expanding as the materials move away from each other due to a force which propelled this and 'space' is being created as part of that expansion.

The curve therefore is within rather than on some outside surface.

It can be imagined that eventually the galaxies will be so distant from each other that they cannot be seen from each other, as they can at present.

This is all possible, even if the general shape of the universe expansion is spherical.

It might be just all of the mind.  Belief systems seem to play a part in that process of wanting to experience AP but not always. 

[we]

William: APers in general seem to see themselves more as the Consciousness within the human form, and they regard the Astral realm as being the source for, the reason for the beginning of the physical universe.

Hmmm... not sure I or most here are the 'general'.
I have never heard of this personally.

Okay so how do you and most here see your selves, if not as being consciousness?
When I read the stories – the data of experience, these are commonly about 'leaving the body' and going to another reality related to this physical reality.

Even in this thread there is one post which the author believes that astral is 'home' and created this physical universe.

I have only ever seen it as top-down.... but the nonphysical reality (or 'astral' if you wish to use a belief-centric label invented by the Theosophical Society) is just another branch of the tree... nay... a twig... there are many many more branches that lead back to the 'beginning'. The beginning or lack thereof being something I personally don't dwell on too much. Not because of fear or any reason that it would be something that challenges my views because it would at the end of the day be unprovable as a theory.
I also get an image of a dog chasing its tail or a snake swallowing itself.
It may be analogous to the spiral galaxy we are currently held within. We are on the outer most portion of a spiral arm about 25,000 light years or so from Galactic central point. The fractal analogy of this is probably akin to where we lay in the grand scheme of things consciousness wise.

I use the word 'Astral' because this Message board uses it.  Do you have another name for it which is more appropriate Ben?
As to the 'branch' or 'twig' – it is not about size.  It is that it leads back to a beginning.
That you don't personally 'dwell' on this aspect of that, does not signify you cannot, or that in doing so you will find yourself in a loop of madness.

It is not about 'proving a theory' – therein lays the madness.  In the end, we are here.  How we got to be here is irrelevant if all it does is create looped arguments about how we got here.

Identifying exactly what is the 'we' is the significant thing.

'From the top down' is part of that madness.  'This' created ''that' therefore 'this' is greater than 'that' has its merits but from the tip of the twig to the depths of the roots, the whole thing is the tree, which had its beginnings as the seed – which is like unto the programme – the potential of a tree is all in the seed.

The tree began and thus is a simulation.

Now look at what the tree is planted in.

Then you have a planet.

Then a solar system.

Then a position in a Galaxy.

Then we see the Centre of a Galaxy is reminiscent of the seed.

Top down – reverse engineer.

Into that centre and what is to be found?

The *"Astral"?

So reports on this *phenomena are overall very suggestive of something so mind bogglingly vast as to be 'enough already.'

Then there is 'The Void' – which seems to have the same properties, according to many witnesses. However, certainly while there is an agreement in general that it is an interesting place to visit, there is not a lot of agreement on exactly what it is or signifies.

Now.. I avoid involving myself in your threads because you tend to pick out the unimportant bits in my 'text' and take them at face value and be so off the mark with your assessment of me and my meaning that it reduces me to react with exasperated humour. No doubt you will break that last sentence apart till it ceases to mean what I actually mean.

All part of building a communications process.  We do want to understand each other and be on the same page, yes?

Certainly that is what I look for in Consciousness.

Who is saying or who has stated that consciousness started in the 'astral void'? This isn't a position I have heard from anyone.

I am just wondering because maybe this is where I have personally missed the point of the apparent revelatory expression that this idea has been afforded. Why it's been a sort of damp squib in terms of its message.

The set up for the 'revelation' is relying on the supposition that we believe that NPMR is the chicken that lay the proverbial egg... am I right?

Well – Ted Vollers told me, and pointed me toward Tom Campbell's 'my big theory of everything'
If indeed this is incorrect data, and there is no evidence of a beginning in Astral, then Astral is that which had no beginning, and is not a simulation.

The only 'revelation' I am approaching has to do with self identity.  In simply terminology it is apparent we are not what we are told or otherwise have grown to think we are.

William: Same rule applies when arguing that consciousness began in the Astral through The Void.  It might look that way...but is not necessarily so.

A good point indeed. It's so easy to assume that the NPR is the origin of consciousness because it seems to encompasses everything else other than the physical which itself only gives birth to deception. It is the purpose of this deception that I think you question.

It is interesting that you think the non physical reality does not encompass the physical but seems to encompass every other.
Deception is part and parcel of the aspect of the physical universe called life on earth – self deception and inter-deception... in some ways an interesting side effect of the simulation of beginnings and there is no reason to think that it starts and stops here in this physical reality – from a lot of accounts there is plenty of deception in different areas of astral – many easy enough to see through especially if you understand what to look for.

The purpose of deception is to deceive as far as I can tell.  But yes – what is it that is doing the deceiving and why?

Once the understanding happens it is far easier to find ways around or through such obstacles.


. 

If we want to continue to exist than we must evolve. The physical is one of the many ways to do this but if we entered this physical life knowing all the answers it would be too easy to not put in the hard work that it takes to grow.

If we remove the deceptions, the work to grow is not hard.  Some of the 'answers' have worked out to be deceptions.

If we come from something which has always existed, then the phrase "if we want to continue to exist than we must evolve" needs to be re-evaluated.
Perhaps something like – "if we want to continue evolving we must exist within the knowledge of our true self."

Otherwise we might simply remain stuck in a looped simulation.

It is very interesting but not at all new. Many people believe in the existence of belief system territories. The idea behind this is that many people have the faith that a heaven or hell exists so when they die, they go to these places that is created by their belief . Anybody who has a compatible belief in this place will likely go there through their expectations but it is not a guarantee.

This theory also demonstrates how many people just end up trapped in their own little heaven/hell since they had no real expectation of what comes after physical death and end up going where they go. This place has to be created and sustained from something and there belief in it is as good an explanation as any, if not better.

No it is not new.  Far as I can tell for now, the majority of APs are belief system territories exactly the same as how you explain heaven and hell.

The difference in the 'island' is that it was a project to see if something could be made 'real' which could be shared and enjoyed objectively.
Seems that belief systems are involved anyway, but to be able to bring back shared experiences from AP and collaborate that data would go a long way to proving that it is not all 'in the mind'.

The 'many people trapped in their own little heaven/hell' may also only be a construct of the mind observing these situations.

There is no way to know that things will be the same when you die – when you have no more access/connection to the physical body, that you will be able to experience and do what presently you are able to while AP-ing.

Another possibility is that these constructs ARE real in terms of a collective belief system...like those multitudes of individuals who altogether believe these are real places, through the combined energy of their beliefs they actually create these places and unsuspecting individuals who die and don't expect anything afterlife, find themselves in situations not of their making.

The idea I think, is to find a way to bypass ALL these constructs because as REAL as they might appear, they are not.

Maybe this is how the planet Earth came to be? 

On  a far grander scale but nonetheless using the same principles but applied to the denser frequency...