Messages

The concept seems to be - 'the more individuals who focus on this projection, the more it can be stabilized into a 'real' thing within the Astral Realm'

Also once a real thing, it could become 'first point' and a 'jump off' platform to other areas of AR.

An interesting idea. 

Here is an educated man who knows that we had the answers to these question in the past, as he looks to the future for us to remember again.

He also has proof of this and today is a member of a scientific research team named the Heart Math Institute, there they research the real power of Collective Consciousness.

He is is on not a Doom and Gloom Sayer , just a realistic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaFRrQ73EVM

You can hear some recent speeches he has done by searching the name Gregg Braden in a simple Youtube search.

'Thinking with the heart' does have its benefits.  We are led to believe that we are individual with our own separate consciousness and at face value this might appear to be the truthful way of seeing things, but if we look at the way the world has evolved through this kind of thinking, we can certainly see that we could do with changing our thinking about this for the sake of something far greater than 'the individual'.

I still think that the human potential to get on the same page is not a wasteful hope – admittedly since I tried starting various threads in various message boards to gauge interest – (here is one place on this message board where I started a thread on the subject)
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_chat/from_prison_to_paradise-t38022.0.html

- the feedback wasn't too encouraging overall – but that led me to investigate what Consciousness (in its collected state) was doing in relation to this planet and this universe since it appeared it was not that able to work directly with human egos to change the collective direction of said egos.

'Doom and Gloom' are self induced realities.  Civilisations rise and fall, but Collective Consciousness can live with that.

Interesting set of lectures about what causes these declines can be accessed here:

http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/massey-archives/2004/11/07/massey-lectures-2004-a-short-history-of-progress/

Part One:

http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/massey-archives/2004/11/07/massey-lectures-2004-a-short-history-of-progress/editor-content.html?cs=utf-8#

Part Two:
http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/massey-archives/2004/11/07/massey-lectures-2004-a-short-history-of-progress/editor-content.html?cs=utf-8#

Part 3:
http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/massey-archives/2004/11/07/massey-lectures-2004-a-short-history-of-progress/editor-content.html?cs=utf-8#

Part 4:
http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/massey-archives/2004/11/07/massey-lectures-2004-a-short-history-of-progress/editor-content.html?cs=utf-8#

Part 5:
http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/massey-archives/2004/11/07/massey-lectures-2004-a-short-history-of-progress/editor-content.html?cs=utf-8#

I listened to them all some months ago and they are a real mind opener.

I think that most of us get the concept but understand that no matter how "smart" we think we are, we know that there is just no way to know with any real certainty what "the beginning" is.

Who is smarter? The person who accepts his limitations and arrives at the correct conclusion that we will never know the truth from our current physical perception or the person that refuses to accept his limitations and learns a little more truth but arrives at a false conclusion?

I don't know but I do feel that the person who does not accept their limitations flirts with madness.

I think Scientists are looking to at least try to get a bead on 'the beginning' - and I also understand that most people accept that this universe had a beginning.

In relation to 'knowing the truth' it is much the same as someone in their 'current physical perception' telling someone that there is no other reality but the one perceived.  Who is smarter?  The one who accepts this or the one who investigate further?  (Not that it is about being 'smarter' - just more informed...often it is not the info but how the individual applies that info which determines lack of wisdom).

The important thing about 'learning a little more truth' is to remain open rather than turn that truth into some cult religious type dogmatic closed loop belief system.

Herein is that if it had a beginning it is a simulation - not a conclusion to anything far as I can tell.  More like a big door being opened.

Richard Bach has some interesting things to say about 'limitations' but seriously if anything causes you to fear for your sanity...the reasons can be sourced within the structures of self identity.

I keep feeling like we're missing huge chunks of the puzzle that we will never solve. This is why, in the other thread, I said something along the lines of "To question one's reality or unreality will start to lead one to insanity". Not to get philosophical on anyone but it's kind of true.

Sure, it's very easy to simply say "We always were and always will be -- no beginning and no end -- alpha and omega, etc"

But it is a concept that goes way over everyone's head. For example, one could compare the sheer perfection of the patterns and illusions that make up our reality to a painting. Let me use the Mona Lisa as an example.

Trying to tell people that "We always were and always will be, and we just ARE" is like taking someone into the museum, placing them in front of the beauty of the Mona Lisa, and saying "See that painting? She painted herself. That sprang out of oblivion. She always was and always will be."

It just doesn't cut it, right? Well, I look at reality and at the known universe as sort of like a painting. Anything that is complex, especially if it has consciousness, is just so hard to justify in any way.

We all know of the loop thing that you mentioned Wi11iam. Still using the Mona Lisa metaphor, we can get into an endless cycle of

Leonardo Da Vinci painted the Mona Lisa > His parents gave birth to him > Their parents gave birth to his parents > Repeat for many generations until the butterfly effect finally resulted in the lovely Mona Lisa.

Consciousness is perfection. It's very hard to imagine perfection coming out of nowhere. I cannot make a Mona Lisa-like painting just materialize with the wave of my hand and then, I wouldn't be able to take it further by saying "Oh, that thing? It just is and always will be." because like we all have said, it's just hard to wrap your mind around.

If something has no beginning or no end, then it loops, does it not? Beginning > end > beginning > end > beginning. It's like a circle.

The one contradictory flaw with this theory is that, like I said, consciousness is perfection. It's very hard to imagine perfection always being there without some sort of 'beginning' or push that sprang it into motion. But even then, if something did spring forth the events for consciousness to be, then what affected those events? And the events before those? IT IS MADDENING.

If we came from a big bang, or a void, then what is the big bang or the void? Let me explain it in physical terms:

If you take all life away and just observe an empty space for an infinite amount of time, will something happen in that space? Something drastic enough to spring forth all life as we know it, that is. Well, okay. So, lets say that after eons of time, of observing space, and nothingness.... BAM... universes just collided and a massive blast occurred which became known as the universe. Hmmf.

This, to me, doesn't make much sense. I think that before this universe, there were others. We are probably part of a multiverse. When this universe was "born" in the 'beginning", it was probably the byproduct of a massive energy surge/explosion/transfer of energy happening in another universe which transcended the fabric of time and space itself.

Okay so, that's my theory. That, just like the Mona Lisa did not paint itself, the universe did not just spring forth randomly from some vacuum after eons of time. If anything, I truly believe that something happened somewhere else to cause this universe to spring to life. Of course, the looping thing comes into play here, too. If the universe is a product of other universes colliding, or giving forth their own energy, then what gave those universes energy, and the ones before them energy, and bla bla bla. Yada yada. My gosh, it is just so tedious. 

Also, many of us here who have astral projected firmly believe that the astral came first. I personally believe that the astral came first. Actually, it would make sense for the astral to come first before 3D. And those of us who have vivid dreams/go to the astral know that it's literally like having a holographic body and being in a simulated environment completely dictated by thought, will, and imagination. It's like logging on to the 3D game Second Life and flying around to any simulated location that you feel like going to, except it's much more real and "in the flesh" feeling.

Keeping the astral and the 3D in mind, one can say with confidence that they exist on other frequencies or wavelengths. If the astral existed first, and if 3D followed, then it's safe to say that our true nature is higher in frequency and lesser in density. But then, what exists beyond the astral? On the higher frequencies? If you take a song and if you speed it up, it will start sounding like a choir of chipmunks are singing it. Speed it up some more, and you can compress a whole 5 minute song within a 20 second period, and the wavelengths will all completely change because they are being accelerated at a higher pace. Take that same song and slow it down massively, and you can completely distort what it sounds like and you can turn a 5 minute song into a one hour long song.

I'm beginning to think of things in similar terms to this. Lets say that, as a completely theorized notion, the big bang happened and is still happening right now.

Lets say the big bang is happening on a frequency that is so powerful it has the energy of infinite suns.

Now, lets say that that frequency, when slowed down in time (which, time may not even exist) goes from happening over a seemingly compact and short period of time, to being stretched out over eons and eons and eons.

The energy from the big bang could be what we all borrow.

So, our reality may be a frequency that is borrowed from something else. Big bang or not, I don't know. However, we are just so slowed down and so far from the higher frequency. Like I said, imagine taking a song. Imagine that a 2 minute song is the big bang. Now, go into a music editing program and turn that 2 minute song into a 2 hour song. Everything completely changes. Lets call the song functioning on a certain wavelength to be our reality.

Now, change the frequency of the song by 1%. Now, by another 1%. Now, it's completely new, and something else. This can be a metaphor for an alternate dimensions or planes. Same song but with a slight 1% difference. Am I making any sense? Maybe everything always is and always will be because we are part of the same song. Maybe the song has already played.  Oooh, that's a mind trip, aint it?

I must sound nutty because I've used things like paintings and songs to be the metaphors of life and existence, but it really helps me paint a picture or get my point across when I can take something as mind bending as this topic and relate them to concrete things. All in all, I really need to go grab some coffee now because I can literally feel my brain hurting. 

Hey there FWB

Thanks for your reply – I read it all yesterday and then thought about it over the course of 24 or so hours.

It was intriguing me how hard it is for people to grasp - especially those who know through experience an even greater reality than just the physical universe, because they would naturally be more open to 'impossible' things.

Admittedly I have understood for many years the perspective that all existence ultimately derived from something called Consciousness – which has always existed - so I have become quiet accustomed to it, but even so I don't remember it being a 'maddening' thing to contemplate.

Questioning existence is ultimately something Consciousness does, and why I focus so much on personal identity with – over and above all other sub-identities.

Through this, one develops a personal connection with something far vaster than the human and even the non physical 'self' and so the questioning extends beyond those personalities and indeed questions all personalities in relation to existence, and Consciousness.

From what I can gather through your post and metaphors on 'how things came to be' it seems to me you cannot easily move your conceptualization beyond the loop systems of beginnings and ends.

This is evident in these paragraphs:

"If we came from a big bang, or a void, then what is the big bang or the void? Let me explain it in physical terms:

If you take all life away and just observe an empty space for an infinite amount of time, will something happen in that space? Something drastic enough to spring forth all life as we know it, that is. Well, okay. So, lets say that after eons of time, of observing space, and nothingness.... BAM... universes just collided and a massive blast occurred which became known as the universe. Hmmf.

This, to me, doesn't make much sense. I think that before this universe, there were others. We are probably part of a multiverse. When this universe was "born" in the 'beginning", it was probably the byproduct of a massive energy surge/explosion/transfer of energy happening in another universe which transcended the fabric of time and space itself.

Okay so, that's my theory." ~ Fairywindblues 

Your first sentence seems to suggest that you do not support that the physical universe or the Astral Universe had a beginning.

The next paragraph reinforces this idea.  You say it makes no sense that 2 universes just collided and a massive blast occurred. 

Yet massive blasts are occurring in this universe quiet naturally, and there is no reason not to think something interacted with a static field of potential which caused the initial beginning to this universe.

Evidence can be seen in the nature of galaxies that massive blasts are at work – at such incredibly huge proportions in such an environment that as a whole they appear to be controlled and even quiet orderly.

If you substitute the word 'life' and put in its place 'Consciousness' – and knowing that you don't need a physical container  a body to get around with – you are still 'life' because you are still consciousness, aware – self aware to whatever point you identify your 'self' as – so in that sense yes it would be possible to observe new creations...and these creations (such as this physical universe) can conceivably have been brought into existence in the same way as AP-ers have been able to create things instantly just but thinking about doing so.

Of course we are not talking little objects like light-sabres or even larger ones like dragons – or even cities or worlds – we are talking whole universes.

But it does show what one individual personality who is able to easily (or has trained hard to) move from this physical universe into that non physical one is able to do - and in doing so, discover the power they have as that one individual to create things – in many cases for the sake of entertainment, and in some – for more serious things.

So it is not that much of a leap of imagination to understand and appreciate what kind of creative pursuits many combined individuals could achieve together with this same ability right?

Your second paragraph where you share your theory is not different from the first other than it includes 'other universes' where this creative energy comes from which gave this universe its existence.

It still involves massive energy and explosions, and 'another universe' and it still involves a beginning.

Thus these 'other universes' or multi universes are all part of what is generally referred to as 'The Astral' realm or realms and it is herein that the properties of instantaneous creation through simply thinking brings into existence those said realties.

The existence of The Void in the Astral is what allows me to understand that since it had a beginning, it is a similar creation of Conscious creative thought which instantly 'makes it so' and can also build on each and every one of those seemingly infinite variations of simulated realms.

The Astral realm has the same properties in that consciousness can create instantly through thought, and has created other realms, including this physical universe.

As you say in you metaphors using frequency, this universe is within a slower frequency where thought cannot instantaneously create things – it can imagine things, draw up plans, form tools, mine material and through these processes make objects.
And as you know – one can leave the physical body for a little while and move into an alternate reality which allows one to just make things – one does not need to even know the intricate workings involved in the process – the guts of it.

Now obviously we can understand that this physical universe most likely was a creation of Consciousness and thought and that some theories (such as Tom Campbells 'My Big TOE') suggest that that which creates thought is Consciousness and that The Void created Consciousness and that from this beginning Consciousness evolved to that point where it became self aware, aware of its surrounding, aware of its abilities to create (and erase) and aware that it was a product of that void because it has an awareness of a beginning, and evidence that its beginning was the Void, (which it didn't create- from the perspective it is observing and evolving from) and from that point began its journey into creativity, exploration, learning, self awareness, and experiencing those creations through its ability to be imbue itself into the universes to explore and experience these other simulations.

So my suggestion really is that if this is the way it happened, then rather than go on an endless mind-tripping loop of 'we have a beginning, so what created us, and if what created us had a beginning, what created that' and so on and so forth, we simply only require the one understanding that no thing originally created Consciousness – no thing needed to create consciousness.  The fact that it exists is proof enough, and as I have said in past posts, when Consciousness is within a simulation which involves that ingredient called a 'beginning' it tends to try and see things from only that perspective and finds it difficult to grasp the concept of no beginning...

...Difficult but certainly not impossible.

Again using your metaphor of frequencies, The Astral had a beginning, but for all intent and purpose has no end.
This physical universe has both – although there is some debate that it might not ever end, it is obvious that at the very least the Galaxies are moving away from each other unless they are close enough to merge (which is the case in some situations) but eventually they will all be so apart from one another that no other Galaxy will be able to be seen from the perspective of every other Galaxy.
Earth will have long since ceased to exist by then, but that is what is going to happen 'one day'.

Still we as consciousness within the human form know well enough the concept of beginning and end – birth and death – and for some there is the belief that there is nothing more to experience once they have died.

Others believe that there is more to 'life' (consciousness) after dying, and AP-ers in general believe that their sojourns into Astral are evidence that Consciousness goes on and does not end.  Belief systems are also induced through these experiences.  Reincarnation is one such belief.

So above all it is Consciousness which we truly each need to understand fully – not only within the limitations of our physical existence in this physical universe, but also in the relative freedom of Astral experience which is just as important to understand that as Consciousness we were not created- we always have been and always will be.

This is important for many reasons on all levels or frequencies – this is knowledge which without, we are more at the mercy of those very frequencies, the loop systems, as well as the aspects of consciousness which seem so wise and wonderful and are seen to be separate from our own, which deliver such awesome wisdom explaining 'who we are' and compelling us to continue within the loops that have been created.

We don't often hear a message of equality from those type aspects of consciousness we regard as being greater than our own, or in some cases these insist that we are not equals, that we are inferior...we know well enough how this happens between individuals, cultures, belief systems, theories, politics, religions etc... in this physical frequency.

What we need to recognise is that we 'go back' from where we came and take those thoughts with us and in the Astral domain the properties are such that those thoughts become instant manifestations, whether the individual is aware of this or not.

So there is the real possibility that this is something we each have to come to a clear understanding about so that we can then step out of the loops created, understand our equality in that all Consciousness is of the One Consciousness, and we are no ones creation really.

We just are.

Nor are we the creation of 'Big Bangs' and 'Voids' etc....We are experiencing simulations which can easily be explained (as to why they exist).

Consciousness is not the painting.  It is the painter.

I read the whole of the thread, you know the one, 'the one with the simulated ending' (potential 'Friends' episode?). Frankly I feel that it went over my head a bit, but I'm going to pipe in anyway with my own thoughts, while attempting to take into consideration what I remember of others words. Feel free to tell me if I'm well off track with what I'm saying.

Where did this thread begin? with Contenteo? What about the other thread, did that begin when William started it? Or when he signed up to this forum? If he hadn't signed up, we would not have this thread, if this forum hadn't been created we again wouldn't have this thread, here, on this forum, involving these people, & we can go back infinitely. We say the thread began when William posted it, as a convention, or we couldn't really talk about it very effectively, but still that beginning is not really true, it's rather a useful illusion. So what is a beginning? It's a part of the process taken out of context, given an agreed upon start & end point, illusionary, misleading.

I think 'beginning' & 'end' is like, a 'noun' - it doesn't actually exist outside of conventions. There is just continual process. So if we talk about things that have beginnings being simulated, then we are calling it a simulation based on based on an illusionary representation of what ever it is (because nothing has a beginning) - e.g my life, this forum, this thread etc... thus it can't possibly be an accurate representation of what's happening, because it's evaluating an illusion... Not what is, but what appears to be out of context.

So in my mind - Everything which has a beginning is by that very fact - an illusion. Something that is being taken out of context & understood or presented as something other than what it really is.

As I said, I feel like the original thread went a bit over my head, so feel free to let me know if I'm missing the point, I am trying keep up with you smarty pants!! *anxiety attack - anxiety attack* 

I am amazed at how many references there are to the mental processes – mostly they appear to be said jokingly but still there seems to be an underlying concern with some posters that some concepts are better left alone because they are possibly bad for ones general state of mind.

Mainly the amazement comes from having read so many experiences from individuals involved with AP-ing and a percentage of these would scare a lot of individuals, but not your average AP-er whom fearlessly faces off the monsters, meticulously records the methods and passes the info on.
..................

The continuation aspect has a lot of merit MS –
These are not separate from the beginning – any more than ripples are separate from what caused them.
It seems that for a lot of us, trying to conceptualize what it would be like NOT to have a beginning is what is causing the perceived threat of mind meltdown.
However, I am not really advocating anyone try to do this, but rather simply accept it as most likely although in fairness to the concept, it is just a matter of removing the boundaries – I personally find the concept quite mind freeing rather than boggling.

Also in relation to the above – perhaps from a perspective of Consciousness without a beginning, that creating a simulation which would allow it to investigate as genuinely as possible exactly what it would be like may have been kind of like tempting a falling into madness...something to leave well enough alone...if indeed it even knew what fear or even caution was.

From our perspective this side of that, it is easy to imagine simulated experiences, and create these with computers.  Our dreams can be like this – as well as our lucid altered states and AP-ing within that Realm called 'Astral'

But we would find it difficult or maybe impossible even, to simulate a 'no beginning' – but only because we are within the framework environments which have beginnings from our perspective.  We ARE that which has come about through the simulations of beginnings...but we are NOT just that. 

Our confusion comes with that which we identify ourselves with. Purely physical orientated individuals who deny (or even mock) that which they can't measure, don't experience and have no time for – by and large identify only with their dominant reality –  the human condition, on planet earth, in the milky way galaxy, within the physical universe. 

They do not see themselves as anything but the human body and that consciousness derives from that body, and ultimately from the evolution of the physical universe.

There is nothing more.

APers in general seem to see themselves more as the Consciousness within the human form, and they regard the Astral realm as being the source for, the reason for the beginning of the physical universe.

The key – the fundamental ingredient to all states is The Consciousness.  There is no reason to believe that Consciousness cannot have existed without a beginning and that that particular aspect of IT exists still in the state of beginninglessness.

Indeed, that would be Its most natural state of being.

We have simply 'forgotten' this – and necessarily so – because we cannot experience what it is like to have a beginning if we remember a prior existence.
But 'forgetting' something does not mean that we are not able to 'remember' – certainly we can expect our fears to make that a difficulty, and these we can deal with.
What we shouldn't expect though is for anyone or thing to actually try and make sure we don't even 'go there' looking, whether by promoting our own fears or use of any other device of prevention.

If it is possible, the expectation is that we would support each other in digging deeper to investigate the possibility.

A Discussion of what are thread is within a thread. What a Thread! by even the thread's standards.
In fact, At this point I think even the thread, itself, has identity concerns.


Everything which has a beginning is by that very fact - a simulation.


Let's put the theory to the test. So, Let's 'simulate' an end.

And attempt to 'simulate' a new beginning to see how the theory holds.

Here's what I think I gathered from the dissenters.

You can simulate anything except a beginning.

See you in the next 'thread'.

Cheers,
Contenteo

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_chat/in_the_beginning-t39778.0.html;msg326544#msg326544

Hi Contenteo

In the context of the thread (or 'thread' as you say) 'a beginning' has to do with the overall environment – which in the case of this physical reality, would be the physical universe...everything within it...all that it is made of. The environment had a beginning...did not always exist.
Likewise everything within that environment did not always exist.



In relation to 'you' and 'I' and 'us' we can relate to what a beginning is because we have experienced it as individuals within human form.

The 'simulation' spoken of has to do – again – with the environment – something created in order to experience something unknown but not only to just experience, but also to see where it goes.

I can clearly see now that we are not here debating a theory at all. We are just here to be taught your theory or more appropriately, your theorem. ~ its_all_bad

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_chat/in_the_beginning-t39778.0.html;msg326543#msg326543

Yep IAB – it isn't really a theory.
It isn't about teaching either – you are free to learn and accept whatever you want to.  There are a lot of theories from those involved with AP experiences and many of these, while they do not involve much in the way of objective evidence – although certain are very similar in nature, many do report the existence of The Void, and in some cases – such as Tom Campbells, this thing is explained as being 'the source or creation' or beginning of Consciousness....objectively The void has been identified through individual subjective experience and reported back (spoken of) enough to be an objective reality.

What I have done is simply add something which explains the existence of The Void – not so much as that which created Consciousness, but more as something through which Consciousness came – like a portal.

As I have also tried to explain that such an understanding (that Consciousness did not have a beginning really – that it has always ever been..).you know...for those who believe that the physical universe is what created Consciousness, others – especially those who have experienced the Astral existence would not agree because their experiences have shown them that Consciousness did not derive from the physical universe 'there is more than meets the eye' etc...even though for the pure believer that says there is only the physical universe and that it had a beginning at
'The Big Bang' and it is from this beginning that consciousness evolved, someone who understand that  this is not necessarily the correct point of view...that it might look like that is what happened, does not mean that it is what happened.

Same rule applies when arguing that consciousness began in the Astral through The Void.  It might look that way...but is not necessarily so.

I can say from experience that being one with all is .. It has to be experienced.
In the highest order of clairvoyant dreams you become one with everything. Its a physical environment and you are everything all at the same time. You are the blades of grass, the metals, the operating machinery, the people, their thoughts and the worst part all their emotions too. No words exist to put justice in order.  You are there and until the vision plays out you're in it for the ride. Its a universal conciousness. It also takes masses of your energy and you're not the same for some days.
I've looked the world over for answers and found nothing. Not one report of this level of clarity. It was switched off a long time ago and really never left. I may attempt a switch on but hesitant until I can remember why it was switched off.
The ' has the firework failed to light' question is attached here. Then if it has after risking being severely burned, do we attempt a re-light.
Enigmatics for psychological damage... ~ Szaxx

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_chat/in_the_beginning-t39778.0.html;msg326523#msg326523


That is a very good explanation for 'why not to go there' but I do not personally think anything was 'switched off' 

What I think is that to make the experience (of having a beginning) as genuine as possible, the memory of prior needed to have the appearance of being switched off but by that fact could not be hidden, which is why The Void exists.  There is no hiding The Void – any more than there is no hiding the Big Bang (the beginning of the physical universe).

Each serves the purpose intended, but the intention was not for Consciousness to hide forever from its timeless self – from what it Is before it created the Astral simulation in order an aspect of IT could experience a beginning...a genuine one.

So the 'switch off' had to do with that.  It is not a permanent state of being – it just cannot be because it is not the nature of Consciousness to 'not want to know' and this includes the evidence of The Void.  It wants to know...or likely more accurately, it wanted to know and found out.

It is the nature of human beings to be hesitant in 'once burned twice shy' type of thing (is the fire-cracker still live' – as you put it) as well as to peer out into the Cosmos of the physical universe and wonder about it and want to explore it etc...and wonder also why others might bother to 'want to know' about their origins – not just the physical origins which can be traced easier – but the so-called non physical which so many believe is their 'true origin'.

If those who saw such 'dabbling' into this non physical astral universe to be dangerous ...to likely do 'psychological damage' to them if they allowed themselves to think outside that box of the physical universe...while understandable, you would not see their fears as necessarily founded, would you?

THIS NEW THREAD CONTINUES FROM THIS ONE:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_chat/in_the_beginning-t39778.0.html

Thanks Wi11iam. Everything you said made sense in the sense that it made no sense at all... if that makes sense?  

Because nothing about consciousness makes sense and that's just the way it is.

I feel like I need to go do more research on this void/big bang thing. Even though everyone claims it's much needed to branch away from the concepts of things having a beginning/end, it's so hard not to wonder what everything was like in the 'beginning' if there ever were such a thing.

Whatever sprang the events into motion that led up to us being... 'us' -- well, I wish I just could have been around to see all that. Oh wait, maybe I was there. Maybe we all were.  

The maybes really get to me, though. Like I said, consciousness is such a topic that can lead one to question their sanity. The ifs, and hows, and whats of this 'beginning' everyone speaks of, are not fully capable of being grasped by the human brain.

What I can say is that I do believe that the astral is our true home. The astral is not dense or full of materialized matter because I believe the substance (isn't it called astral substance or ether substance?) resonates on a higher frequency. I believe that in order for something to materialize and become set in stone on the material planes, it has to have been revised and carefully planned out on the astral. All of us ending up in the same reality probably means that we all concentrated on crystallizing this reality back when it was still a rough draft project.  

My personal theory is that in the beginning, the astral existed first, or the substance that created the astral existed first. Once it was utilized, it sprang into an infinite number of planes. Somewhere in the midst of everything, consciousness came to be/or already was.

However, I cannot see what came before the astral. I don't have the power to. My human mind isn't capable of grasping it at this point.   ~ Fairywindblues

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_chat/in_the_beginning-t39778.0.html;msg326521#msg326521

There are many things about Consciousness which do make sense.  While many things might not be fully understood by the brain, Consciousness isn't one of those things...it works rather well with the brain but is not limited to the brain alone.

Beliefs do have a lot to do with how Consciousness is directed as does the environment Consciousness is involved with.
You believe Astral is 'our true home' but for me that is simply an environment.  Consciousness does not really need a 'home' – like that saying goes – 'home is where the heart is' which tends to mean 'Your home is whatever place you long to be. ' and 'true home is with the person or in the place that you love most ' – along those lines – and one can 'feel at home' in a familiar situation.


If one could be comfortable in the realization that you are Consciousness, that can grow to be the equivalent of 'home' – Like being sure of your self, even when things around you – your environment – are looking like falling into chaos.

Your observations of careful planning and teamwork which when it creating this denser environment we call the physical universe from that environment called 'the astral' is something I understand many who have experienced that environment also believe.  It is easy enough to understand from that perspective – the creative patterns can be seen clearly enough in both realities and all I am doing is pointing out that both have evidence of a beginning.

Just as surely as many can identify with and feel more comfortable or 'at home' with the Astral than they do with the physical, others are more comfortable with just the physical universe – it is enough and thinking about the astral is 'over their heads' just the same as thinking about 'no beginning' is, at this time, over yours.

I think of the Astral – not as 'home' but an environment which was created to explore the concept of having a beginning.  

It certainly looks like Astral was around a long time before this physical Universe, and that all that can be experienced sprang from that.
It is really just the fact that The Void exists and is recognised in general to be the source of consciousness – that consciousness grew from this 'thing' and from that 'The Astral' evolved as consciousness did.

As you said - 'Once it was utilized' - Only Consciousness can utilize anything.  

If someone where to say to you 'the physical universe is all that there is' you would likely disagree even though you couldn't prove to them.
In the same way, if someone were to say to me 'The Astral' is all there is. I too would disagree.

The bottom line is that Consciousness which evolved from The Void must know that it had a beginning for that fact – So it was a blank slate (something most if not all of us can identify with) but that Consciousness (from which we as individuals in this universe are part of) would understand itself to have had to have existed prior to being 'Incarnated' into the Astral experience where IT began its journey into what it was like to have a beginning.

Just like you might say to someone 'everyone comes from the Astral and had a prior existence.'  That person might not think so, or argue for the evidence or think you are crazy or consider your information to go right over their heads etc...they can't imagine anything other than what they are focused upon in 'the real world'...

...so too it seems that those who experience the Astral appear not to be able to grasp the concept of having no beginning.  There 'real world' is all there is, and they focus on that.

Perhaps just like those who refuse to contemplate anything outside the physical universe – for whatever reasons, so too are there those who refuse to contemplate anything outside the reality of the Astral.

Perhaps for similar reasons, whatever those reasons are.

If you were to tell someone about the Astral, and that they too could experience it, and they asked you 'what is the point in that?' how would you answer them?

Hey Szaxx 'n Fairywindblues  beautiful posts - unfortunately I have to go play a weekend gig real soon so am unable to reply in a way both posts deserve - will do so when I return but thought I would just acknowledge your contributions before I get me gone

xx

Catcha ina few daze...

Exactly that. YOU were there. The LADY was flirtatious.
Had it been both party to the act, your post woukd have been longer.

That's just the thing...she was doing her own thing...The impression I got about it all is that...we are connected deeply on many levels and our proximity sparked the...reaction   The feelings (for want of a better word) were not sexual but the reaction through the body in this physical dimension was, as if the body in bed could only respond sexually with orgasm - that is as far as the body was able to go as it were - in the cavern her presence was felt and you know...a deep familiarity and all the feelings and memories and other things associated with our connection - I feel right now to put 'ancient connection' - happened in an instant and perhaps she picked up on it too and in that 'place' we flew together and embraced but by then my dominant reality was in the physical universe - pondering as I got about cleaning up me mess ...

It appears to explain that this physical reality is a small piece of the whole. Our conciousness here is not the whole or everythng. It is solidified form we take in its experience and with this we are disconnected from the whole and see ourselves as a concious singularity.
It doesn't explain the whole, it says it exists and all are part of it.

Yes I can see that Szaxx - and it appears to me most APers tend to understand it like that too.  I would say that the angle I am coming from - the approach I am taking here - is self identity and that there is no purpose in using expressions such as 'my consciousness/soul/spirit etc' because this is what I (you/us) are. 


When we are involved with different states/universes/simulations etc we tend to identify with the aspects of the simulation, and in the case of APing, we take those identities there too - although on occasion is is not always the case.

Essentially if we can learn to identify with Consciousness as being What We Are - some of the separation elements can more easily drop away...we can begin to communicate with 'each other' as aspects of our self - no more or less real but equal. 

I think that this shift in identity may be the key to sharing the experience less subjectively and more objectively too.

Its intense unlike anything physical.
Indeed William, right place right time for a flirtatious moment.

Hmmm...wasn't even any opportunity to get flirtatious Szaxx - really it was like a reflex...an instantaneous thing...I was reading maps...not pornography!  I was with others in what was rather a serious gathering...anyhoo...twas your poem which prompted the memory...so thanks for that.

xx

Rofl

Sex seems to be a very dominant focus - it is quiet an animal thing at a base physical level - maybe even unknown thing until experienced and then transformed into its ...non physical rendition...

I remember quiet a startling encounter...I was doing things which had no obvious sexual connection in a lucid dream state in a kind of underground but well lit environment - like a huge car park only no concrete - rather stone and no cars....and all of a sudden I felt a presence I seemed to recognize and I looked up to see the form of this woman move about 150 yards from my own position - she was moving across from right to left and it was only a glimpse before she moved behind one of the many rock pillars but in that instant I immediately felt an intense joy and excitement and literally came....and then woke up...

The interesting part was that there was no actual sex or even thinking about sex - I was occupied with some thing or another (maybe examining maps)  it was just an instant moment of joy which translated into the physical world as an orgasm.

From what I can gather it is a group experience to see if subjective alter realities can be proven also to be objective.  Would this be correct?

[you]

Wi11iam, I think you could learn a lot from this guy.

Check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LLq96yzONo

He has many videos where he tried to explain what is this reality.

Maybe he would answer some of your questions as well! 

"Physical" reality as you call it – as we have said many times – is a reflection of your state of being your state of Consciousness – there really is nothing out side of you -  you're not really IN Physical Reality - Physical Reality is within you.
It's within your consciousness. It is a concept that you are experiencing of yourself from a certain perspective however we understand that the way in which you have chosen to experience your particular dimension of physical experience is as though you are within a realm of  space and time as you call it but what is that exactly?

What is space what is time? Again – while they are illusionary you still create the effect of them the experience of them in your life experience as a physical being a physicalised being so to speak where you have taken your energy – the energy the high frequency energy of your spirit nature – your non physical nature and in this sense have lowered that frequency – crystallised that frequency down into what you call the experience – the matrix of - the structure of  physical reality
.
Now again this is going on within your consciousness you're not actually in any place really called physical reality – its all within – Nevertheless we understand that the way you chose to experience this makes it appear to be outside of you – so the thing to remember in order to give yourself more opportunity to chose and experience the kind of physical reality you prefer – the kind of physical reality that you say is more in alignment with your true vibration is to begin to see and experience physical reality as a reflection similar to the idea of the reflection that exists in your glass mirror – you know that when you look at your reflection in a glass mirror you know that you're not really  'over there' – and you know that if you want to change the reflection in the glass mirror  you don't go to the reflection and attempt to make it change you must change your self in order to see the change in the reflection so physical reality being a reflection being a hall of mirrors operates in much the same kind of modality – any change in which you see in the so called reflection  - the outer reality must begin within must begin within the inner reality which is you within your consciousness – within your vibration within your state of being .

I think the 'we' in this video is something channeled - it appears that way.  I can't see exactly what the 'we' is referring to in relation to the 'you'.

Who believes this actually?  Do you believe this Lionheart? 

Its seems to separate the consciousness from the 'you'...

I'm not pulling your chain. You seem to be a good writer and I presume your stories would be cool and imaginative. 

See my above post 'PS'

I would.. I bet they are a blast.  

Are you guys pulling my chain!

Its not all about me ya know...

PS I had a look because I thought I had shared a story on this board - yep I did:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_writers_corner/from_the_book_i_am_writing-t37940.0.html

Yes I saw that IAB but I still couldn't connect the dots...why/how (?) this subject came up.
I don't know why it was necessary for you to make this point.  Perhaps I missed it...

I remember when I read what you wrote - my thoughts went something like 'is this person pulling my chain or what?'  I mean it is obvious is it not?

You said:

"but I do actually believe that you can't prove to me that I can't exist without you."

I thought to myself:
"I would have to exist in order for me to prove anything to you.  You would have to exist in order for me to prove anything to you. What has belief got to do with it?  It is simply matter of fact."

So it seemed moot and beside the point...

It does give me pause to chuckle though. 

No, I am saying that you should listen to his videos with an open mind and translate them yourself.

He is speaking on a topic that you are speaking of here. It's good to here the story from every angle, every viewpoint.

He does this for a living, we don't. I said you should attempt to contact him and ask him your questions. But, I'm sure his answers will only lead to further questions.

Okay - well I have listened to that vid and it has some aspects in it to which I am familiar with.  i wouldn't say it is what I am saying though (in relation to that which has no beginning)
I wrote down what was said and had some Qs for you on it, but since it is not something you believe, maybe those Qs shouldn;t be directed to you.

This statement from Fairywindblues was spot on!
"Asking myself this just leads me into an endless spiral of questioning my reality, which in turn, makes me feel like I'm losing my mind."

My answer to Fairywindblues (and to any who feel that way) is worth reading.  

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_chat/in_the_beginning-t39778.0.html;msg326334#msg326334

What has this got to do with what I have been saying about Consciousness, beginnings, Higher Self.

Sophism, being distracted by Egocentric constructs a discussion does not make.

Please read the following in case you missed it the first time:

Will, as much as we have all communicated with each other on this thread, it never gets to deviate from the your main focus. Mostly because you won't let it. That's cool, I understand the thread rules and all. But I understand a little bit about people too.

People like to discuss things...sometimes serious stuff and other times not. Many of us are fascinated by the same things but the problem is that we are not all completely serious about the same things. So topics on a thread can tend to wander and eventually evolve into a new beast. That's alright if your just fascinated with the topic but it sux if your real serious about it.

I guess there's nothing wrong with that but what happens is that you miss out on getting to understand a person and what they are like and how they joke. These little things come out when a topic strays off course. In other words you don't learn anything about thier personality...as much as this particular medium allows anyhow.

You're an SS Obergruppenfuhrer of the topic brigade and won't allow it to wander more than half a sentence. Just saying is all, no biggie.

Seriously IAB the other aspect regarding your complaint is that such kinds of things can be used to derail or at least change tracks away from a particular topic focus because peps find it doesn't fit their beliefs or challenges their beliefs or any number of other reasons, and it is wise to watch for, I am sure you can  agree.

Hey, if the topic makes one feel uncomfortable or one simply has no interest in what is being expressed, then one can find the halls of fun and frivolity and joke away etc...don't you think?  One does not have to persist in disruptive frivolity, and if one does, then it is fair enough to call it out yes?


If I think a concept brought into the discussion is able to be expanded with the addition of topic focus - that at the source, Consciousness has always existed, then of course I am going to continue to bring this to the fore. 

I am not being Nazi about it.  But I am being disciplined, mature, organised and ever mindful of common pit falls which can go off onto unrelated tangents....and the methods which are sometimes used to control such method of distraction, whether they be subtle humor, shadowy 'taking the tinkle' or more forthright attempts at changing the subject.

When it comes to getting to understand any personality, I take these as they come at face value.  I tend to keep an eye on the ones who prove to be contrary to their original - initial - expression because it is often the case that such behavior is evidence of....shiftiness...a shift in expression bouncing hither tither and not wishing to be pinned down to any particular...personality. They tend to say one thing and do another, or in the case of cyber personalities, they say one thing and then say another thing which almost or does contradict the first, and when questioned about it turn around and say they were only joking...lordy!  I mean really - do they want to be known, stable, reliable trustworthy, dependable...so the personality presented through such type expression is unclear - it is not one which is able to be transparent - a bit like the boy who cried 'wolf' or Pinnocio...ya know...or a mix of those two personalities.

So hey - I have shown clearly already in this thread that I am quiet able and willing to 'deviate' to a degree, such as in this instance, yapping about personality etc...but I always have in mind, be that a thread I have created or one which another has created, to get back to the subject and overall content of the thread out of respect for individuals and for the subject at hand.

Are we all good now?

Woah... All I'm going to say is that I was so not in the right mindset to start asking myself this question. 

Asking myself this just leads me into an endless spiral of questioning my reality, which in turn, makes me feel like I'm losing my mind.

When I start going into the whole "Is anything real?" or "Is this all but a dream" frenzy, I panic. And let's just say that I'm not good in a panic because I have this condition known as dysautonomia, where my autonomic nervous system is messed up.  I start producing adrenaline like crazy, will get short of breath, and my 'fight and flight' reflexes will start going haywire.

I do have such a hard time wrapping my mind around something having no beginning and no end. To me, the very fact that we ARE conscious, and alive, and on some tiny speck of a planet known as earth, floating around in some endless vacuum known as space... that kind of blows my mind in itself. I cannot fathom it, yet, at the same time, I wouldn't have it or imagine it any different. But like I said, I cannot fathom anything. My mind is blown by the fact that I'm even here, talking to you guys on this forum.

The "What am I?" questions have plagued me since childhood. I have a wild imagination and can imagine it being anything from: We are in the Matrix, or a computer simulation, or, we were programmed to live and do all of this. Or, we are merely inside of somebody's dream. But who is that somebody? Who is the maker? Is it us or is it God? Is it both? If it's pure energy, then where did the energy come from? Where did love come from? Where did beauty and perfection come from? It all looks like it has a maker; an artist. But who? Who?!

Wrapping my mind around these questions, though, just depresses me because I want to know EVERYTHING so badly! Call it a conceited gesture or not, I won't get offended.    I will never give up trying to solve the riddle. Life is the world's biggest and hardest riddle to crack.

Hey FWB

I know what you are saying.

In realising that Consciousness does not have a beginning actually simplifies things a great deal.

We don't need to understand every aspect of this physical universe in order to just be in our particular place within the human form, here on the planet (which can also quite mind blowing) or get too carried away emotionally by it, or for that matter be indifferent or cold about it

What you are is a matter for you to decide but in the mean time you have to be someone right?  So keep the mind open on that... kind of like;

"For now this is who/what I think I am, subject to changes tweaks and shedding of formative beliefs as more data of experience comes my way".

Some data for you to consider if you can.

In relation to 'what created us, what is God, love etc...in regard to any particular experience you might find yourself in, be that this reality (physical universe) or alternate reality (Astral) if it has a beginning, then it is not 'God' and to be more particular...any personality which would claim to be your creator which itself has a beginning, is not. 

Indeed, as consciousness we have always existed and we have created these reality constructs in order to experience the different things the constructs were created for the purpose of.

Of course that is not that easy to just accept.  'We' – after all – are within one such construct, which had a beginning and in the form we are in (human) also will have an end.  It is no easy task to lay aside the things we have been subjected to right from the go get, as tiny babies devoid of any memory of prior existence and having to rely on what we are taught by those we learn to trust in.

So the first thing necessary to even really think outside of these taught beliefs about 'who we are' requires that lovely gift called 'imagination' which itself is subjected to all sorts of stuff – again, from those who teach, preach, direct, control, etc...

One could be forgiven for just shrugging and saying 'what the hey' and closing the mind off to anything which might threaten our immediate need to survive, be comfortable, acquire things we want, be 'normal' so we don't attract unwanted attention to ourselves which might have the people in white coats come along and slip us into a straitjacket and give us drugs which will help us stop asking such questions.

But really it doesn't have to go that way.  Science is beginning to connect the dots as it searches for the illusive theory which will bring all things together...in the mean time we don't have to wait for that to happen.

It is natural for something which is experiencing or has experienced a beginning to thus assume all things must have had a beginning.

Tom Campbell's theory of everything also recognizes this problematic approach whereby the question loops... "if we were created, what created us, and what created what created us etc...into infinity." His answer is to stop going there and just accept his particular model of 'everything' because of the existence of 'The Void' which apparently is impenetrable, and not only existed before anything else, but created consciousness, yet is not conscious itself.

In this way we do not need to 'torture' ourselves and can focus on understanding, exploring, working with the 'reality' which has come from The Void.

However it is not in the nature of Consciousness in any form or non form through which it is able to ponder and question, to accept the conditions and limitations of whatever situation it is involved with, and there will always be aspects of IT which will – given any opportunity – work a way to get past the walls placed in front of IT...and The Void is one such wall.

The better angle to come from, which also stops that loop thingy happening...that "if we were created, what created us, and what created what created us" thing and understand that Consciousness itself had no beginning – that any construct which clearly shows a beginning (like the Big Bang or The Void) is by that fact a simulation and that wonderful tool we call the imagination can easily enough include the likelihood that there is a state of existence where Consciousness actually had no beginning...we don't even have to go there to see for ourselves.

But it does bring an end to that loop thingy...and it needn't 'blow ones mind' at all...or cause sensations of fight or flight, anxiety etc... We are IT.  Period.

Of course, 'you' can be whatever you believe 'you' to be. 

Wi11iam, I think you could learn a lot from this guy.

Check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LLq96yzONo

He has many videos where he tried to explain what is this reality.

Maybe he would answer some of your questions as well! 

Okay Lionheart - there certainly are many 'explanations' as to 'what is this reality' (Am I right in assuming you mean this particular physical universe with the 'Milky way' and innumerable other Galaxies?)
Are you a believer of this personalities interpretations as to what this reality is?

Also, to be fair, I am not asking questions so much in this thread - I am trying to understand exactly what some of the posters angles are in their responses and I am questioning some of those...so are you saying that this personality you have linked me to will assist me in understanding the direction these (and maybe you) are coming from with their beliefs?

All in all though, it really is a rather gross mistake to conclude that as consciousness 'I am' the only thing which really exists as 'real' and everyONE else is 'my' construct...

The truthful way to view this is that you, me , everyone is equally real, no argument, and if there is any voice of protest against this concept, it is likely sourced at the Ego.

We simply cannot objectively say "I exist without anyone else" without this being merely an expression of Ego.  It would not matter if the expression was coming from Little, Big or Super Ego, or all three combined...it must still be a dishonest expression yes?


I'm not saying I exist without anyone else. I'm saying I exist despite of anyone else I know with my current physical brain and knowledge of.

So no dishonesty implied or intended.

Besides, I only made the statement in context of a theory that is not necessarily my own but I do actually believe that you can't prove to me that I can't exist without you. But if you do actually have a way to prove this to me then I would be believing in the wrong thing and I assure you, it wouldn't be the first time.

What has this got to do with what I have been saying about Consciousness, beginnings, Higher Self.

Sophism, being distracted by Egocentric constructs a discussion does not make.

My god.. I had to fabricate a whole post that pandered to your opinion of me to get you to agree with me.

That says a great deal about you... another nut cracked.

No