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I came to this forum a while back with lots of theoretical knowledge but no experience.  The people here, I especially remember Stookie, did everything they could to help me.  It took a while before I was able to project, but everyone here was always helpful.

I want to be as helpful to others as I can.

I recommend researching magickal practice, including things like shamanic journeying and other types of "vision experiences".  IMO these journeys take place in the same place as astral projection.  The difference is just the degree of awareness you have while visiting.  AP would be considered full awareness of this place and very little to no awareness of the physical.  A visualization journey (which is used in magickal practice all the time to create an Astral Temple from which to work), for example, leaves the traveler partially aware of the physical.

For many of these journeys you do not need to be oblivious of your body.

In AP, if you have a mastery of focus you can turn your awareness completely away from the body without inducing some kind of physical sleep state.  Relaxation is helpful because it's harder to ignore tense muscles.  But if you have your skill developed well enough, you have the personal power of mind to turn your awareness inward almost on command.  I have met and validated people that can do this.  I interact with a hypnotist at work from time to time who I have watched induce deep "trance" within seconds, yes seconds.  He even did a hypnotism workshop where he had his own EEG and we watched his brainwave frequency jump from what looked like mid-range beta to mid-range theta in 30 seconds.  He went from standing in normal awareness to sitting in a chair (with no neck support) in deep trance in less than a minute.  There is no way he put his body to sleep that fast, yet I watched him induce a deep trance. 

done

I agree with Tiny, though I don't think there are many people these days in the western world who already have that fine tuned of an ability to focus. 

Nevertheless, don't let my story make you think that it has to take a long time.  It was my fault that it took so long, I had to learn through trial and error what was holding me back and I wasn't willing to accept that.  For a long time I thought the problem was with the techniques I was using or whatever, I never wanted to look at my experience and learn from it.

Well, I think we've exhausted our argument. 

I am not offended, but I don't think you should say that I (or anyone else) is intentionally spreading disinformation or ignorant.  I don't have as much projection experience as some people here but I know a lot about neurology and metaphysics.  I do have a lot of experience in trance states though and i have personally distinguished between different levels of trance.  I would not intentionally misinform novice projectors nor would I consider myself ignorant on the subject.

However, I still disagree with the mind awake/body asleep model, but that's another subject. 

Actually Xanth, I DID tell him about Frank. 

He used to be on Astral Pulse years ago and I told him that since he was having trouble with the conscious exit, maybe he should try Phasing.  And he said "I remember something about that from Astral Pulse, some guy talked about it a lot" and I said "that was Frank".

Then he started asking what happened to Frank, told him I didn't know and then I told him that you made a "Frank PDF" and he got all excited and said he'd check it out.

so 

thanks personalreality. I was considering buying journey out of the body by robert monroe as well as astral dynamics by robert bruce. Do u think these two books are worth starting out on or are their better choices?

Astral Dynamics is a little heady for a first read, though it has some of the best technical/practical information available.  I should tell you that my experience with AD was good and bad.  RB's work helped me develop a lot of the skills that I use in projection now (like energy work and trance induction) but his techniques held me back for a long time because they kept my mind too involved.

AD is still one of the best books out there.

Monroe's books are pretty much useless in a practical sense.  They have good info and they're definitely a must-read as a projector to see some good first hand experience.  But the best Monroe purchase is definitely the hemi-sync series (either the Journeys Out of Body Companion Set or the Big Set). 

I would buy Astral Dynamics and "Out of Body Experiences: How to Have them and What to Expect" by Robert Peterson.

Also, my first AP book was called "Out of Body Experiences and the Nature of Reality" by the somewhat unknown John Magus.  It was a good introductory book.  I might also recommend the Carlos Castaneda series.  They aren't specifically related to OBE, but they give you a lot of insight into altered states of consciousness from a shamanic perspective.  I mention them because the knowledge I gained from reading them still has a big influence on how i view the astral landscape relative to the physical.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_projection_experiences/how_i_got_out_for_the_first_time-t30942.0.html

There are also things to be said about the vibrations, but no need to confuse you yet.

Keep trying, it'll happen.  I was always really interested in AP but was unable to do it for a loooonnnggg time, and started to doubt the reality of it as well.  But then I came at it from a different perspective and wild things started to happen, just like you.  I kept at it and I was out within a couple months.

I wanted to share a cool encounter I had today at work.

So, as I've mentioned before, I work in a Metaphysical Bookshop and I get a lot of interesting people coming through and today I had a great run-in. 

A guy came in the store who used to come here when he was a kid (back in the 80's).  He now lives in Las Vegas.  He was visiting Virginia to go to the Monroe Institute for an OBE conference.  The Monroe Institute is a little over an hour from my store.  He decided that on his way up to D.C. he would pop into the store.  He got a reading with one of our psychics and told her about the conference at the Monroe Institute. 

The reader knows that I'm a projector so she introduced us.  We talked for a long time about projection and he told me that he has only projected from a lucid dream, never a conscious exit.  I told him that I had only been projected for a couple months, but I was able to achieve conscious exit.  He got very excited by that because he says he hasn't been able to really talk to a lot of people who achieve conscious exit aside from these conferences.  We have a lot in common in that he has been using the RB methods for a while and is pretty much stuck where I was until I read Robert Peterson's first book.  I told him how I project and what helped my get over the Robert Bruce hump.

It was such a random meeting. 

He also told me to check out some Thomas Campbell video on YouTube.

I will sometime, but if you've already seen it or want to check it out, let me know what it's about.

I have two potential explanations for the heart beat.  It could be an energy surge.  I was talking to my boss the other day who is a psychic medium and he said that Astral Projection and the nervous system are very closely intertwined.  It's not unusual then to experience strong energy surges (and while the heart is a part of the circulatory system, the majority of it is made out of neural cells, which means it is also a part of the CNS, like the brain and spinal cord) that manifest as rapid heart beat, surge up the spine, or even rapid fluttering of your eyelids.  From my experience these sensations are not happening in your physical body.  I recorded myself on video about a year ago when i was just getting back into AP practice and still experienced those sensations.  I felt like my whole body was pounding with my heart and that my eyelids were fluttering open and closed but on video I was sitting perfectly still.  Strange.

The other explanation is that when you're in this kind of "trance" state your body is "quieter" and you can hear your normal heartbeat.  Actually, in the book "Projection of the Astral Body" by Sylvan Muldoon, there is a technique for projection that involves quieting your mind and body and listening/feeling for you heart beat/pulse in different places in your body (ears, feet, neck, etc.).

I recommend attempting a conscious exit either right after you wake up naturally (not from an alarm clock) or in the afternoon after you've been doing stuff all day.  Those are my favorite times, when I have the most success.

Here is my post on my projection method, give it a try:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_projection_experiences/how_i_got_out_for_the_first_time-t30942.0.html

[they utilise brain and consciousness resources differently and provide different input and information filters.]

I'm sorry Ryan, I don't keep an electroencephalogram recorder next to my bed for this purpose. 

I know this information because I've been studying brain wave patterns and their associated states of consciousness as well as sleep cycles for years in psych classes. 

I thought it was common knowledge that your brainwave output slows when you go to sleep and these different ranges of brainwave frequency cycles have been measured and labeled.  I mean, it's exactly the same as looking at a red light and knowing that the wave pattern of that electromagnetic energy is slower than the frequency pattern of a violet light. 

In the end, you are right in some regard.  It is essentially useless to bring this knowledge to projection/phasing work because we don't have any mechanism for biofeedback in our homes (ie - an EEG to show us our changing brainwave patterns as we induce deeper trance).  However, knowing these designations can serve as signposts along the way to the state of mind/body needed for an individual (i chose that word intentionally) to successfully project/phase.  If you read up on the associated physical sensations to their respective trance state you can identify them as you move through them.  This may be frivolous, but for some it may be the lynch pin to identifying what they need to do next.

Capt. Picard, it is impossible for me to harbor any negative feelings toward your misunderstanding of what i'm trying to say because you're capt. picard and i love star trek.  That aside, allow me to re-post the pertinent lines:

Trance - All brain waves are analogous to different types of trance in that they utilise brain and consciousness resources differently and provide different input and information filters.

different trance states (associated with different frequencies of brainwave output) utilize brain and consciousness resources differently and provide different input and information filters.

The word trance describes numerous altered states of consciousness, not just one.  I think I see the problem though, which I addressed above and provided my rebuttal for.  And I will no longer argue on that point because projection is a unique process and the way you define your experience is perfectly true, natural and necessary.

As for sleep paralysis, this is getting a bit tedious.  Sleep paralysis is REM atonia when you awaken during it.  Sleep paralysis technically describes a sleep disorder, often associated with narcolepsy (people go from waking consciousness to REM sleep suddenly and often experience sleep paralysis) and sleep apnea (when you stop breathing in your sleep which can awaken you from REM sleep), where you wake up during a REM cycle and the atonia is still present.  THIS SHOULD NOT HAPPEN.  REM atonia is a function of the body to protect itself during REM sleep, your awareness is not meant to return during this process.  The reason you are often not lucid (even though you have usually regained full awareness) is because you are coming out of a sleep state where your mind is most active.  There are often hypnagogic hallucinations associated with sleep paralysis which make it difficult to really determine whether one is awake or asleep and by the time you do figure it out the episode is over.  I mean you're coming out of a dream state, your mind still thinks its in the dream state for a short time and it is confused.  This can cause intense panic which IS counterproductive to projection/phasing. 

What I'm trying to express is that trying to induce sleep paralysis IS NOT POSSIBLE.  It is something that happens by mistake and can only happen when one is abruptly awakened from REM sleep.  When we project we are not inducing sleep paralysis.  We lose awareness of our body.  This is a result of slowing brainwave frequencies (ie a trance state).  It is exactly the same thing that happens when we are moving from waking consciousness to sleep every night.  Normally when we go to sleep we allow our consciousness to drift down into "unconsciousness" or "unawareness".  But, for us projectors/phasers, we teach ourselves how to maintain awareness to some degree during this process (the conscious exit people do anyway).  Thereby we achieve a deep trance state or altered state of consciousness that is conducive to the projection of consciousness. 

i retract this post because i now see that we have started a new one to talk about trance and SP.

sorry S_man_9

One more thing.  When you project, it's not a completely aware mind that allows for exit (or whatever you frankies call a phase exit), it's a completely focused and engrossed mind.  It's not just a numb body that allows the exit.  Your mind needs to be in an appropriate state, which as you may have guessed is a unique experience.  Each person will experience this state differently so there isn't much use in trying to describe it. 

You all talk like all you need is a sleeping body which isn't true.  You need mental discipline.  You need to be able to control your involvement in the process.  For some this means being almost asleep.  For others this means visualizing with intense detail.  It takes much more than just Mind Awake/Body Asleep.  You need to turn your awareness inward if you want to phase or AP.

OBE, that's a different story imo.  That's a dimensional shift.

I will distinguish between them right now.

Sleep Paralysis - sleep paralysis is closely related to the paralysis that occurs as a natural part of REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, which is known as REM atonia. Sleep paralysis occurs when the brain awakes from a REM state, but the body paralysis persists. This leaves the person fully conscious, but unable to move.

Trance - All brain waves are analogous to different types of trance in that they utilise brain and consciousness resources differently and provide different input and information filters.

Gamma waves

Gamma waves have the highest range of frequencies (around 40 Hz) and are involved in higher mental activity. They have also been detected during the process of awakening and during active rapid eye movement (REM) sleep.

Beta waves

Beta waves are the most common of the brain wave patterns that occur when awake. These occur during period of intense concentration, problem solving, and focused analysis. The frequency of beta waves is between 13–30 Hz (cycles per second).

Alpha waves

Alpha waves are any of the electrical waves from the parietal and occipital regions of the brain, having frequencies from 8 to 12 hertz (cycles per second). Some scientists consider the range 8–13 Hz and are most usual when we are mentally alert, calm and relaxed, or when day-dreaming. Alpha waves are a sign of relaxation, as they indicate a lack of sensory stimulation in a conscious person.

Theta waves

Theta waves occur when we are mentally drowsy and unfocused, during deep calmness, most daydreaming, relaxation or tranquility, as for example we make the transitions from drowsiness to sleep or from sleep to the waking state. The frequency of theta waves is between 4–7 Hz (cycles per second) though some researchers regard theta to be 5 to 8 cps.

In brain wave frequencies, theta is the frequency range where drowsiness, unconsciousness, dreaming states and deep tranquility happen. Most daydreaming occurs while in the theta range. It is normally a very positive mental state and prolonged states of the theta brain wave frequency while conscious can be extremely productive and a time of very meaningful/creative mental activity.

With practice, meditation can also lower a person's brain wave frequency to theta while allowing the meditator to remain conscious.

Delta waves

Delta waves occur primarily during deep sleep or states of unconsciousness. The frequency of delta waves is between 0.5–4 Hz (cycles per second).

Focus 10 - This is most closely related to what might be called a deep trance state, low alpha to theta waves.  This is a state in which your awareness seems to have "separated" from your normal position of perception.  Often this is experienced as your consciousness having shrunk to a point and perception seems to happen through the mind's eye or "third eye".


I'm not even going to talk about sleep paralysis anymore, it's a biological function and has nothing to do with AP.  If it happens, great, use it.  But DO NOT try to achieve it because it won't happen.  You aren't supposed to experience sleep paralysis, it's supposed to be a function of your body to protect itself while you are in REM sleep.  And, if you've studied sleep cycles, you aren't supposed to wake up naturally in REM.  Sometimes it happens for whatever reason and if it does, use it. 

Focus 10 is a level of trance.  Trance is not some difficult thing to achieve.  Zoning out is trance, daydreaming is trance, watching tv is a trance state, meditation is trance, being "in the zone" while playing a game (sports, video, whatever) is a trance, getting into the flow of a song while dancing is trance, hypnosis is a trance. 

It's easy for us to categorize trance states into the brain wave frequency designations but in truth, trance describes a massive continuum of altered states of consciousness.  Everything from being hyperactively awake to being passed out asleep.  Trance is just a word we use to designate our waking consciousness from other altered states.

Again, Focus 10 is not trance, but a specific region on the continuum of trance states.  The specific trance state needed to AP is variable.  Each one of us has a different and infinitely unique physiological and psychological make-up which influences the particular trance state needed to AP/Phase or OBE/Etherically Project.

Bottom line, everyone is using words to mean different things.  That is the nature of human communication.  Each of us has a unique experience with different "words" and so our perception of them is biased toward our paradigm.  We're arguing over the definition of words that are descriptions of SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCES!  Silly.

My concern is in confusion this kind of talk creates for new people.  So, new people, do your best to read what everyone has to say, pick one that seems congruent with your experience, use it and build on it.  Make your own definition of all these words.

out.

I'm not a Frank Groupie, but my model of reality is kind of similar I suppose.

I wouldn't break down the non-physical realm in so many planes.  There's the physical and non-physical.  Thought forms of any kind are born in the non-physical soup.  Be it AP, dreaming, contemplation, etc. etc. 

Its the inner realms, the inner dimensions.

sleep paralysis has NOTHING to do with AP.  I've said it before and I'll say it again.  It's a happy coincidence.  Sometimes it works for people. 

BUT!  When you talk about sleep paralysis as part of projection it confuses new folks into thinking they need to somehow "achieve" sleep paralysis to project and that's just not true.

Sleep paralysis is a biological function that is induced automatically upon entry into deep sleep.  In order to project from that state someone would have to wake up in the middle of it, which is a common experience for some and they've utilized it for AP.  But going into AP practice trying to achieve sleep paralysis is just going to hold you back. 

A trance state is NOT sleep paralysis.  Trance is describing a state where you still maintain awareness as your brain wave frequency begins to slow down.  Anytime your brainwaves change from the normal waking beta, you are in a trance.  This can be induced in a multitude of different processes, from meditation to listening to techno music.

Also, mind awake/body asleep is misleading as well.  Again, you're leading novices on a quest to achieve something that is not the best description of the state you want.  Some people have the predisposition to wake in a deep trance state where their body is technically asleep, but for someone trying to achieve conscious exit at any time other than normal sleeping times this is a near impossibility.  You'll spend months and years trying to reach the fabled "mind awake/body asleep".  It's not about the body being asleep, that's just the easy way out if you can get there.  But if you want to develop mastery of the conscious exit you'd do better to spend your practice time learning how to "forget" about your body.  It's about dissociation, not somehow inducing this elusive body asleep state.

Oh and as for mind awake.....it's not that easy.  If you're moving toward the phasing approach then mind awake is good at a certain point, but you need to be very good at totally immersing yourself in your visualization.  I've found it to be easier to let my mind almost go to sleep.  That's the easiest way for me to reach this state of flickering consciousness where my mind is totally involved in the inner realms than the outer.

i have made this distinction before as well.  phasing = astral projection, obe = etheric projection.

when you phase or AP you are turning inwards to the non-physical dimension, the "kingdom of heaven within you".  when you obe you are essentially increasing the vibratory frequency of your consciousness so that it is "in phase" (pardon my use of that word, this has nothing to do with phasing) with your higher dimensional energy bodies/selves.  You are moving up in physical dimension.

I'm not concerned with what he thinks of his book, I'm concerned what people like us are thinking when we seek this kind of stuff out.

unless you have spontaneous OBEs (which i never have) you'd have no idea what AP was unless you had read about all these other methods and techniques.  Not many people write AP books just to say, "hey, look at what i did!", they write them to teach you what they've learned.  That's how they communicate their experience and that's how you get to be exposed to something like AP and in turn be motivated to try it. 

If you're ignorant to the subject you have to get your start somehow.  And I agree, the method an author writes about is unique to them and it will not work for anyone else if done in the exact same way.  But it gives you something to try and build on.  You tweak it to accommodate your needs and you create something that works for you.  Methods can hold people back when they cling to them and try to hard (i was guilty of that).  But if you haven't figured out yet that some things need to be explored and personalized then it's gonna take you a long time to project.  Methods and techniques are essential in that regard.

i just don't remember reading about sleep paralysis being a close step to AP.

i guess it's somewhere, people keep talking about it.

perhaps pretending to go to sleep will help

it's not Frank Fan, it's Frankie.

frank + groupie = Frankie

Welcome new person.  

Enjoy the knowledge we offer.

I'm not knocking this person and their book, but I too once thought that somewhere out there on the web or in some bookstore resided the secret that would help get out of the body.  I thought that I was doing everything right, I just hadn't found the perfect technique yet.  Well I was wrong.  There is no secret book out there with knowledge that I just hadn't found yet.  It just took persistence.

never heard of it