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Excellent thread Andrew!

I'll add my answers shortly.

However, I would just say that I agree with Hannah that one of the biggest revelations for me has been that all astral/lucid/obe/dream experiences are all in fact the same thing - the only thing that differs is your level of conscious awareness.

ie during a standard 'dream' your conscious awareness is almost zero so you are at the mercy of what your sub-conscious mind happens to throw at you! (although this can be very useful in its own right of course - dream analysis is very useful), right through to full-on 'obes' and 'astral projections' where your conscious awareness in 100%, sometimes more so!

'Ludid dreams'  basically mean experiences where you can be anything up to 99% aware... however that missing 1% makes a huge difference!

For me, this revelation was a godsend because it made things so much easier.. everyone gets so hung up on classificatons - was this an obe? was this a dream? etc - now I don't worry about it: I just concentrate on raising awareness.

It's also encouraging for people as well - astral exploration is not an impossible task - you have 'astral' experiences every night!!! And you exist across the entire spectrum of consiousness!

ummm.... you've lost me completely now!

Unfortunately I am not actually Frank Cavernstoy! lol

As for your question, you have to remember that when we expand our consiousness to full-on F4, our 'human' experience becomes just a tiny drop in an ocean of experience, so I would not class F4 as 'human' - it is way beyond 'human'. When you engage with F4 you will become aware that you have went through a vast array of different experiences in objective reality, of which being human is the latest.

As for the process behind us getting together (in F4) and starting up this physical system - the jury is still out on how that came about, but it seems to be a 'standard' development in systems such as ours that Physical systems are created in order to experience objective reality - a physical system is THE way of experiencing objective reality -it is the 'end product' of everything started off in F4. It is likely that in all systems, this process follows the same overall format although as i said nobody really knows about them so the specifics of these other systems may be wildly different. However they will all involve the creation of a physical system of some sort in order to experience objective reality - objective reality IS the physical system.

According to Frank's findings (so far), everyone who is reading this has decided to experience that wonderful option known as 'Human existance'.

We experience a huge number of these physical human lives at the same time, and over a range of different time periods and even other physical universes.

Afterwards, when we have spent as long as we need to recovering in the 'astral' ie F3, then we will refocus back to F4  once again. There will be no need to have another human experience because we will have experienced so many human lives that we will have pretty much covered all the angles possible in a human experience.

Once we arrive back in F4, we can decide what to experience next.

The physical world systems, all of which join on to F4, are designed to allow us to directly experience all manner of experiences in objective reality, but we must remember that Human experience is only one part of this opportunity of experience.

We can experience being all different types of lifeforms that you can imagine such as insects, cats and dogs, birds etc and thats only the start - what about what we would call 'innanimate' objects - rocks, trees, clouds, pencils, an areoplane, planets and stars, or something more abstract - a musical note? a colour? a ray of light? What about experiencing at the bacterial level -or the molecular, or the sub atomic or quantum?

Indeed anything you can imagine can all be experienced, and in experiencing them it gives you ideas for further experiences.

There is actually an infinite number of experiences since the physical universe itself is constantly changing and evolving and as we bring new ideas into it, this affects the mix.

When we think of the old mystical notion of everything being alive, of a living conscious universe - this view is actually correct.

In F4 we can also engage with the 'concepts' of all these things and gain further insights into them.

Remember also that consciousness does not end in F4 - consciousness is infinite - so there are likely to be an inifinite number of other 'F4-F1' systems, perhaps similar to ours, perhaps wildly different - nobody knows too much about these others yet - we are hardly scratching the surface with our own so its best to concentrate on that first!

taking Jewish thought forms into the larger Hellenistic culture of the Roman Empire

Hi DH,

I agree. It also wasnt just one way traffic. 'Jewish thoughtforms' were themselves heavily influenced by Hellenistic philosophy. Indeed you can argue that the whole concept of 'jewish philosophy' is hellenistic, jewish hellenistic , but very much part of the hellenistic world.

The Hellenistic neo-platonic influence on christianity is huge. The concept of the trinity and the chain of being from godhead, to arch angels, to angels, to saints to humans - all this is direct influence of neo-platonic philosophy.

The Christian fathers did not dispute this. They just put the best that pagan philosophy had to offer to flesh out their own doctrines. Indeed, many of the early church fathers were converted former neo-platonists, so its no accident that there is a lot of neo-platonic concepts within the core theology of christianity.

the religion of christianity is very much a hellenistic religion, with jewish influence of course, but in the end, very hellenistic.

The most important reason why Christians made Sunday the sabbath was because 'Sunday' or 'the day of the sun' was already very popular in the Roman empire for the worship of the sun and Mithras.

Instead of competing with pagans on this, the Christians incorporated Sunday into Christianity by making sunday the day for worshipping the sOn rather than the sUn. Sunday was chosen for the sabbath as it made for a more smooth transition to the new religion for most inhabitants of the empire.

The Sabbath observance was eventually enshrined in imperial law.
In the same way, The Roman festival of Saturnalia was incorporated into Christianity as Christmas.

This was a fantastic strategy adopted by the Christian fathers and supported by Constantine and later Christian emperors: Instead of competing with the most popular pagan festivals and observances, which they knew they didn't have a hope in hell of banning, they instead decide to incorporate them into Christianity itself.

This allowed for a relatively smooth transition from a pagan empire to a Christian empire. The rest as they say, is history.

I followed this project years ago, but to my disapointment, I have checked out their site recently and nothing much has changed.. they are still pretty much where they were 4 or 5 years ago.

Last night as I was dreaming, I became lucid and from there I ended up going through a series of experiences in what I can only describe as something akin to Monroe's/Moen's 'recovery centres' and other rehabilitation areas in Monroe's F27 (or the upper areas of Frank's Focus 3).

In the first 'tour', I awoke in what appeared to be a hospital ward, but this particular room was a small adjoining room next to the main wards, where people receive specialist care. Everything was a pristine white but had all the kind of equipment you associate with a modern hospital ward.

I found myself lying on a reclining white seat that was somehow integrated into the wall. I remember next to me was another young guy, maybe around early to mid 20s. In front of us was a 'nurse' of some kind, she was administering assistance and talking things over with the guy next to me and answering questions about what he was doing there.

She told me that this is a hospital where people sometimes come in order to overcome traumas that occurred to them during their physical lives and perhaps after traumatic deaths. The hospital was like any other, except it healed psychological traumas rather than physical ones. It also dealt with people who were afflicted with emotional distortions like greed, selfishness, paranoia etc. these characterstics were all viewed as ailments.. emotional ailments, which the hopsital could also help with as part of its duty of care.

The guy next to me had apparently just died. It was not entirely clear what had happened, but I had the impression of a sudden accident, perhaps a car accident or similar event, and the nurse was explaining to him what had happened. The guy was chatting away quite happily to the nurse and it turns out he was Irish. He and the nurse both chatted about the fortunes of the Irish rugby team in its recent tournaments and he made a few lighted hearted remarks concerning the national team. The nurse conversed with him quite readily on this and I had the impression that this was all about putting him at ease as much as possible.

This guy was aware of what had happened, especially now that the nurse had explained the situation to him and that he had 'passed over' as it were.

However at this point I suddenly felt a wave of compassion for him. Here he was: he had crossed over suddenly but he remained grounded in what was going on, and he chatted about the things that were interest to him such as the rugby etc, but it suddenly came to me how this guy would never be able to go home, never be able to go back to his parents, his girlfriend, his friends and so on.

At this moment I saw the other side of the coin as far as physical death is concerned: the part that people never seem to mention. Everyone is aware of the loved ones left behind and how traumatic it is for us when someone dies, but what is not talked about nearly as much is the emotional loss of the 'deceased' individual himself/herself - the deceased is equally cut off from the family and loved ones that they knew.. for if it is difficult for us to communicate with them, it is equally difficult for them to communicate with us. The veil comes down.

I had the impression that for this young guy, although he knew the score regarding what had happened to him, he had not yet realized the full implications, but that he would in time.

Yes, there are other things to occupy you on the other side and other loved ones who will look after you when you cross over,and new friends, but that does not lesson the pain of leaving others behind and the pain of not being able to communicate with them and to be with them.

I had never really considered the emotional implications of physical death from this other perspective before, ie from the emotional perspective of the deceased. I had always viewed it from the perspective of those left behind as I guess that is the default perspective we have. Maybe it is obvious to some but I found it quite an insight and it opened my eyes.

I didn't stick around in the ward after this. The next thing I was talking with the nurse about people who have lived traumatic lives and she was talking about those afflicted by war. The next thing I remember, I was in a jungle like environment and all hell was breaking loose! Grenades flying everywhere, people in uniforms gunning each other down etc..

It was unbelievable.. the next thing i know i was in a military style camp site, somewhere else in the jungle and I was sitting at a table outside and i was chatting to a couple of guys there. They appeared to oversee this place and it turns out again, that it was some kind of rehabilitation center. What i had just experienced was the kind of thing these people had lived through, both in the physical and also in related belief center areas afterwards.
They had now been rescued or had made their own way here and in this camp they slowly learned how to let go of their old military lifestyle and obsession with death, which for them had become overwhelming. In this environment, they were aware of what they were doing and that they were in a process of rehabilitation. They made friends with others here and generally tired to build relationships had were on a more positive basis.

I was just settling in to this place, which seemed like a scout camp for grown ups, when I transitioned somewhere else again.


This time, i was in some kind of casino leisure complex and this place was mega rich..everything gold and silver plated etc and totally garish. It was populated full of mega rich people strutting their stuff and generally showing off how rich they were. It seems that everyone was checking out each other to see who had the best threads on. I felt like a tramp by comparison!

I walked through a cordon which sectioned off a VIP area and this was full of even richer people, if such a thing is possible. I found the whole environment surreal. Normally i would view this as some kind of belief system territory and it certainly sounds like one, but again, I felt the distinct impression that this was another kind of rehabilitation center. That is, these people were aware of their issues but they spent time here trying to overcome them. From what i could see, they weren't having much success!
I don't know how things operated there but perhaps helpers were there and continually worked on them and helped them to achieve a more balanced state of mind.

At this point, my 'tour' came to an end and I awoke to make notes. Even then a lot of it slipped by and I have only got the general outline of things that happened, and only some of the things said in conversation; a lot of the conversations were very detailed so this lack of total recall is irritating. Very interesting experience all the same!

I had one experience which may have been F4 related.

I often have experiences which involve a golden light, something akin to a sunset like effect.

In this instance found myself being drawn towards this golden light, but as I was drawing towards it, some part of me started to resist, most likely as a fear reaction. This resistance manifested in a pulling effect that attempted to drag me back from the golden light and back to my original suroundings. At the same time, the golden light exerted an equal pull and for a long while I was stuck in the middle with both forces trying to tug me in their respective directions.

Eventially the side trying to pull me back won over and I returned to my original location and from there to F1.

I wasnt sure what to make of this experience but I later related it to Frank and he was of the opinion that this was an objective interpretation of me partially widening my awareness to F4 but then pulling back due to fear. The golden light was actually me, but me in my F4 state and I objectively interpreted this as some kind of external force.

This is quite possible. I don't know. I do remember the fear was that of a dramatically altered state of consciousness and one that I didnt feel ready for at that moment, so it may well have been some kind of F4 experience, or more accurately, a brush with the borders of F4.

Would you mind relating your F4 experiences Novice?

Hannah:

I wonder if you are going too far with your perception of the BBC. Many Americans make this assumption also, that because the BBC is a state funded broadcasting agency, it is 'state controlled' ie a propaganda machine like you find in Russia or China.

This is simply not true. If you actually look into the set-up of the BBC you will find that it is a state *funded* broadcaster, but one of the core constitutional principles of the BBC is its freedom of expression and freedom from governmental control. This is one of its guiding principles.

For this reason, you will find that the BBC is not in any way 'the spokesman for the government'. Quite the opposite in fact:

The BBC has actually been criticised in the past for its anti-governmental bias and its lefty-liberal outlook, and it has been recently accused of being overtly biased against Blair and Bush's war in Iraq (mind you, who can blame them!).

Today, the two odd effects are linked by a study that backs the idea that the near-death experience is a biological experience, rather than anything to do with a spiritual dimension, a glimpse of heaven or the existence of the soul.

er.. excuse me?

How did you work this one out exactly?

I have found that the receiver components in my tv set are responsible for screwing up my tv picture. That must mean that there is no such thing as an external signal.

Well, as research on Castenada's work shows, he has gathered a wealth of spiritual and occult lore from many different traditions and re-packaged them in a 'shamanic style', so if people ask me 'do his books have any value?'

I would say yes. Many of these ideas are valid ideas and he communicates them so well as he is such a good writer; so yes, Castenada is well recomended and his books are of great value. Those who dismiss him 'because he is a fraud' are kind of missing the point.

As an earlier poster said, its the message that's important, not the messenger.

Not that I agree with all the concepts in Castenada's books of course. His idea of transforming into pure energy is nothing short of total science fiction! But his books do contain a wealth of valuable info and great insights nontheless.

Doug

I've seen the doc.

I didnt like what I saw.

No matter how much you like his books, the evidence is too hard to ignore that he was a fraud in the sense that his books were not revelations from 'Don Juan' or genuine Yaqui mystical knowlege.

What is true was that he was a fantastic writer. Added to that he had a genuine knowlege of *real* shamanic practice and Yaqui tradition thanks to his research as a trainee anthropologist. Unfortunately the real Yaqui shamanic system is nothing like what is presented in the books. The real shamans are actually more concerned with practical matters like getting good harvests and ensuring fertility of the tribe etc.

What appears to have happened is that Castenada saw a gap in the market for a new approach to new age teachings (it was the 1960s after all). What he did was start to read mystical/occult literatutre from lots and lots of different sources, from all traditions.

He then 'repackaged' them but reinterpreted them in a 'shamanic style', using shamanic terminology and themes to give it all a fresh approach. As Castenada was such a great writer, this approach works very well.

Many people have found that his books do have very real spiritual value. This is actually not suprising, as Castenada researched and read a wide variety of occult/mystical literature and incorporated it into his shamanic system, so its no wonder that many of the ideas hit home to people.

However, he is a fraud in that he definately tried to suggest that this material was all genuine mystical knowlege handed down to him from Yaqui shamans and the character 'Don Juan'. This is untrue.

In the end he completely misrepresented Yaqui culture and actually had a huge negative impact on the tribe as they have since been continually accosted by bus-loads of hippies looking for 'don juan', who it appears, never really existed.

In the last years of his life, Castenada decended into the usual depressing stereotype cult leader, complete with sex slaves etc.

After his death, his three closest diciples/sex slaves comitted suicide, and one of them drove out into the desert and seemingly took a final walk into the baking heat.

It was a sorry end.

Having said all this, there is no doubt however that his books are a great read and do contain genuine spiritual knowlege and given a nice shamanic theme thanks to his great writing style. Just be on your guard and remember to take some of it with suitable pinches of salt.

I have never used brow chakra activity intentially for phasing, but as you say, sometimes it comes on at random (like when I'm walking along the street!), and this time it was while in bed doing a phasing exercise.

This is the first time that brow chakra activity has ever resulted in a phasing experience so I'm not sure what to make of it. Maybe there is a connection, but energy movements and chakra activity are not needed for phasing work and indeed are usually regarded as a distraction.

I will try this again and see if I can get this result again.  Others may want to have a go and see as well.

In the past, I have found that increased brow activity has resulted in conventional OBE experiences (ie real time zone) but never to anything beyond that.

This morning I was lying in bed and started noticing a pressure building behind my forehead which I tend to associate with my brow chakra or energy center opening up. The pressure tends to build up further and further until it feels like something in my head is going to snap.

Usually it fades before anything happens but this time I tried pushing it to see what would happen. The pressure built up and up and next thing I knew there was a moment of disorientation and then I was feeling a sense of myself moving backwards into the 3d blackness. This was quite interesting as I have noticed in the past that I seem to find it easier to enter the 3d blackness state by moving into it backwards. I felt myself rushing backwards into the blackness with increasing momentum and over time I started to get impressions of some kind of tunnel that I was travelling through.

At this point I decided to see if I could find a way to emerge in the astral somewhere and no sooner had I thought this than a astral window seemed to open up in front of me and i emerged into a wooded environment very much like the area around my old school.

I started walking around and checking things out. Everything seemed very real. It was actually raining slightly and i was able to feel the drizzle on my face and see the droplets of rain falling off tree branches.

The weird thing was the people. I did come across a few people walking around and some of them said hello as I walked past, the problem was that the people were cartoon-like! The environment was real enough but the people were cartoon images of people.. very weird.

I know it was some kind of overlay experience that was causing me to see people in this way and I tried my best to mentally correct the image and over time the people I came across began looking more lifelike.

I passed a woman on a nearby street and asked her what year it was, as everything seemed so normal that I thought i might even be in the real time physical zone somewhere.

The woman seemed a bit confused by my question (no wonder!) but replied and said that it was 2014!

That's about it really, I spent a few minutes walking around some street areas and the nearby park area that I had originally 'landed' in, before I began to feel things wobbling and becoming indistinct, when the quality of the experience declines and I tend to return to normal waking consciousness.

The good news is that you only really need Gateway Wave 1.

Buy that and then refer to the all-time classic 'Gateway wave1 pointers' thread by Frank and you won't go far wrong.

Doug

Bang on target.

Its all about where you are focusing your attention... the physical or the non physical spectrum of consciousness.

Hi Andrew,

You never know, perhaps these beings/people are inhabitants of another physical world system, such as what Frank has mentioned in the past. He discovered that there are many, many alternate physical worlds, and people can travel between them, either physically or non-physically. What is more, he discovered that there are some of these inhabitants who are quite aware of us here in this world, and they may be interacting in some way.

As for their appearance, I'm not sure if this is some kind of overlay, ie your own perception distorting things or whether they actually do look like that! Maybe they do!

Doug

Shining one,

These kinds of fear reactions are very common, especially for first timers. Part of this is due to the fact that part of your mind is still shocked that all this is real after all! You have to realise that there is nothing to fear and no harm can come to you. However, you should also be aware that 'thought = action' in the astral world so if you have an attitude of fear then this will fuel fear genereated scenarios, which then generate more fear and so on.


You have to nail the fear from the start and not allow it to get on top of you.

For a start you should know that the old fears of 'not being able to get back in' are rubbish.

The fact is, it is the opposite you should be concerned about: the hard part is trying to keep out!

Also there are no demons or devils waiting to possess you or eat you etc. There are only fear projections, generated by your own internal fear which will sometimes manifest as demons, devils and anything else your mind can dream up to perpetuate the fear generatred scenarios. In such situations end the experience right away. Then try again, but try to keep your fear under control and over time you will be able to project without any of these fearful situations occuring, or feelings of foreboding etc
These sensations are all manifistations of personal fear and are quite understandable, but you will have to conquer them if you want to make any progress. Keep trying!

easier to dissolve our identity and perceive in energy/wave terms.


When engaging with F4 you are not really 'dissolving your identity' though. This is more an eastern buddhist idea which you are using to interprete the F4 experience.

With F4, you are still 'you' and your 'identity', its just that 'you' and your 'identity' have just become WAY bigger, so much so that your current 'identity' in your here-and-now life forms just one tiny stroke in a much larger canvas, but that stroke is still a real one.

Frank hasnt given any direct instructions for that as yet, as he was only just getting his head around the issue himself.

Certainly it will involve you widening your awareness yet further until some kind of switch will take place, and your narrow F1 perspective will widen to the much wider F4 perspective. The clues will be in his posts, but as far as I am aware, I havent yet come across anyone who has got as far as Frank in his explorations. If anyone has or you know anyone who has, then do let us know!

I think it may be case that there are probably quite a few of us who may have had some kind of F4 experience without realising what was going on. I believe I may have been somewhere close to it at one point, completely by accident, but I haven't been able to replicate it since.
Doug

For those of you that want to access some of Frank's excellent practical phasing advice, I can do no better than guide you towards his classic 'Gateway Wave1 Pointers' thread.

It doesnt matter if you have never used The Monroe Institute's Gateway Series CDs, because the practical phasing advice that Frank provides here is really useful whether or not you use the CDs.
Here is the link(s) to the thread:

This is the original starter post by Frank:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_permanent_astral_topics/gateway_wave_1_pointers_original_post_by_frank-t25243.0.html

And here is the continuing thread with all the responses to this post, along with Frank's on-going advice and answers to questions:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_permanent_astral_topics/gateway_wave1_pointers-t1832.0.html


Enjoy!

Doug

For those of you that want to access some of Frank's excellent practical phasing advice, I can do no better than guide you towards his classic 'Gateway Wave1 Pointers' thread.

It doesnt matter if you have never used The Monroe Institute's Gateway Series CDs, because the practical phasing advice that Frank provides here is really useful whether or not you use the CDs.
Here is the link(s) to the thread:

This is the original starter post by Frank:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_permanent_astral_topics/gateway_wave_1_pointers_original_post_by_frank-t25243.0.html

And here is the continuing thread with all the responses to this post, along with Frank's on-going advice and answers to questions:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_permanent_astral_topics/gateway_wave1_pointers-t1832.0.html


Enjoy!

Doug

For those of you that want to access some of Frank's excellent practical phasing advice, I can do no better than guide you towards his classic 'Gateway Wave1 Pointers' thread.

It doesnt matter if you have never used The Monroe Institute's Gateway Series CDs, because the practical phasing advice that Frank provides here is really useful whether or not you use the CDs.
Here is the link(s) to the thread:

This is the original starter post by Frank:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_permanent_astral_topics/gateway_wave_1_pointers_original_post_by_frank-t25243.0.html

And here is the continuing thread with all the responses to this post, along with Frank's on-going advice and answers to questions:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_permanent_astral_topics/gateway_wave1_pointers-t1832.0.html


Enjoy!

Doug