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first i was just wondering if anyone one can prove that OBE isn't just some kind of lucid dreaming

I'd like to know if anyone can prove that our physical reality isn't some kind of lucid dream. I was just out again this morning and as usual evaluating the details of that world, comparing them to physical world. The more I study the details in the non-physical world (which is actually amazingly physical), the more convinced I am that it is no less of a "dream" than the physical world. The quality of the visuals alone is just amazing. Not only that, but it is 3 dimensional and has physical properties like weight, solidity, wetness, cold and hot. You can actually explore these through touch which I have done extensively. One is really hard pressed to say it isn't as real as the physical. I jumped off the side of building this morning after looking way down at the busy street, dozens of stories below. It was not easy to do because all my senses were telling me it was suicide. I had already concluded earlier that it was the non-physical, so just went with that, but I was still hesitated and was afraid to do it.

Sure we can all sit here and debate whether it's not real, but ask yourself the same question while your there. I do this often and then test things as much as I can, to answer that question in real time. If the places you are going are anything the ones I'm going to, I imagine you would come to the same conclusion.

Yes, it's more difficult to change things in the physical reality because it is a collective manifestation. There are also places in the non-physical that have varying degrees of "collective-ness" and are more difficult to change if you end up there. Those places are also more stable and consistent too.

IMO, all of our life is projection, just changes dimensions.

The theme for this morning seemed to be "what or who is real?" I was in a room with people and there was one person talking who was just a stuffed animal. So I said something like, " But that one is just an inanimate object." Then the stuffed animal starting talking to me and said "Oh yeah, well I can talk and move around and do anything the others can do, so how can you say I'm not real?"
I started thinking about it and said, "Well you could take some animal like a bird for example." I looked up and behind me, amazed to see a bird had flown onto the window sill. I put out my finger and the bird went onto my finger, then morphed into something between a person and a bird, got really tall and started explaining to me about what "reality" is but in a conceptual (no words) language.
Then later I was walking down a hallway and came up to this woman who seemed to be alive, but looked very much like a mannequin. I made lots of mental notes about her. She had flesh-colored "skin" and no clothes, but it was a plastic-like material and I felt it's texture and noted that it was cold to the touch. She could move around and talk although her mouth looked really strange when it moved. I grabbed her hand and said "If you come with me, I think we can warm you up more like a human body." We ran down the hallway and out to a balcony. I looked out and saw that we were really high up in a building in this huge city at night. I pulled the woman's hand and said, "come on let's fly". I had some hesitation after looking down, we must have been on the 100th floor. O.K. here goes, then we just jumped together. The woman was flying along with me over this huge mega-city. We flew along a river and under several bridges looking up at the lights and tall buildings, making mental notes about the incredible detail. I saw the tiny figure of a person looking out one of the windows as we flew under. We stopped at this large platform-like structure where you could land on an outcropping. There were several people behind a long glass window looked like a restaurant possibly. I noticed two of the people standing next to each other looked identical. I kept comparing the details of each face and was really amazed at the level of visual quality, color and how perfectly 3 dimensional everything looked. The level of definition on the visuals was super-high and so razor sharp. I decided to leave and was just hovering over the floor on my back. I told someone "Just push me along and I will move. It's like there's wheels under me, only there's no wheels. Then I decided to come back. Great experience.

...they read that lucid dreams and astral projections are different things... there's the first big box you've put yourself into.  
Wouldn't it be better to remain open minded about such things until you've had many experiences and can analyze them personally?

There's the key: experience and analyse. When you are actually in that place, that real and separate world and you are aware that you are outside of your of physical-world body. You look around, you touch things, taste things, you decide and do whatever you need to do to be satisfied, evaluating the world you are in like an alien that just landed on another planet. That's when you can decide and you can decide while your there and then commit your experiences to memory.

Once you have what I call the "real deal" then those ideas about trying to prove what happened become irrelevant, not applicable. When you are there, the last thing on your mind is trying to prove you had the experience. You don't need to prove your waking-life experiences to anyone do you?

I've actually just finished reading the complete trilogy of Tom Campbell's My Big TOE (MBT). It was a long slog, and difficult going, not because it is technically difficult, but because he continually talks around the subject and constantly repeats himself, which does get a bit wearing.

Tom continually talks about consciousness being digital, and realities being virtual. Personally, I don't think the word 'digital' actually adds anything to the concepts, in my mind consciousness could just as well be continuousness. I have had a brief look at some of the digital physicist's papers, but I can't say the ideas grabbed me. It's something that I may investigate further, but I don't feel that the truth lies in that direction.

The big disappointment in MBT is that Tom never one backs up his ideas with any proof. No mathematical proof, not even any anecdotal proof. He hints at how modern physics can be derived from the digital theory of consciousness but says that is beyond the scope of the book. This is not a criticism; Tom explicitly states that he is simply saying how things look to him from his explorations and experiments. Tom continually says that it is up to each of us to find our own way to experience a larger reality. So not only does he not back up any of his claims, but he doesn't really tell us how to find out for ourselves. Just that we should.

I don't think we should be waiting for science to prove the existence of the "Larger Reality" or anything else about the NPR really. After all, the only thing that science can prove is the rules that govern the physical reality. That's very useful information for us to function in the Physical Reality, but doesn't offer us anything for the Non-Physical Reality.

It's up to each one us individually to explore and find the meaning behind our existence here. Tom gives us a lot to think about and while I too don't agree with everything he says, his ideas have added a lot for me. We're all on the same journey here to learn. When we talk about "How to experience the Larger Reality" the key word here is experience. That's mainly what I'm interested in, actually going there myself, not taking anyone's word for anything. I listen to a lot of ideas and take what I can use from them, put what I can't use on the shelf for reference.

[reasoning]

I wonder, does Tom believe in the movement of the Earth?

The senses (expereinces) of every person report to him that the earth is a fixed, immovable body, and that the sun, moon, planets, and stars move around the earth every twenty-four hours. It is only when one accepts the reports of the reasoning faculties, that he knows that the earth not only whirls around on its axis every twenty-four hours, but that it circles around the sun every three hundred and sixty-five days; and that even the sun itself, carrying with it the earth and the other planets, really moves along in space, moving toward or around some unknown point far distant from it.

If there is any one particular report of the senses (experiences) which would seem to be beyond doubt or question, it certainly would be this elementary sense report of the fixedness of the earth beneath our feet, and the movements of the heavenly bodies around it--geocentricism--and yet we know that this is merely an illusion, and that the facts of the case are totally different--heliocentrism.

If reality only comes from experience what a woeful sate we are in. 

Just because we understand the rules that apply to our reality does not mean we understand the reality itself. It also doesn't mean the physical reality we experience has fixed, objective properties. If you take a look at the quantum world, in fact just the opposite is true. Those who believe in a subjective, non-materialistic reality have just as much scientific basis if not more than those who believe in a material, objective reality. I think what Tom is proposing is that we could be living in some kind of virtual-reality simulation. This is not a far-fetched idea at all. And Tom isn't the only physicist that thinks the best model for our physical reality is a computer. But as you say "Google is your best friend here" 

You will need to preach that sermon to the spiritually possessed who of no consequence or knowledge, much less fear, of such attachment, are nonetheless not only possessed but influenced, many times heavily directed and controlled, by the spirit attached.

See Fiore, Tramont, Woolger and dozens of others who write extensively about spirit attachment, release and possession/depossession.

To wit, there are abilities of spirits, good and bad, which are positively known and demonstrated repeatedly and there is no reason to believe that these capabilities cannot exist within the world of the astrally traveling.

Fear, lack or abundance of it, plays no part.

So what you are basically saying is that anyone of us could be suddenly taken over and possessed by some evil spirit against our own will? That is pretty frightening really. If this is the case, we should all live in fear. But better yet, maybe we should all adopt a belief system that will supposedly protect us, while leaving the fear there "just in case". It might be a good idea to create a place for such people to all coexist with guaranteed protection from such things (so long as the maintain the correct beliefs) and of course never venture out beyond the border of the protected area.

That's simply not part of my experience.  Hence, it doesn't apply to me.
See that?  I just disproved all of the well documented sources as they simply don't apply to me because I CHOOSE for them to not apply to me. 

It entirely revolves around two things:
1.  Belief - if you TRULY believe you're 100% safe, and I mean even more than "believe", but instead you "KNOW" you're safe... then nothing can harm you while projecting.
2.  Positive Mindset - keeping positive and loving goals/intents in mind while projecting will also keep everything bad (if such exists) away from you.  If you're constantly doing sneaky and underhanded things such as spying on people... it *WILL* bite you in the butt eventually.

Part of what you project is your own beliefs so it's best to rid yourself of such beliefs, particularly the negatives ones, especially ones that involve fear. Unfortunately, a lot of religions perpetuate fear-based beliefs in "evil" and "demons", etc. so it's no wonder that some people are manifesting these demons or whatever you want to call them. I experienced this first hand and there was a time in my life where I wouldn't have even considered AP because of fear. Just like in our physical reality, in the Astral there are people who are negative, like to hurt or scare others, but they can only effect you if you let them. It's your choice.

It is well documented that we can pick up evil spirits from many sources. They can attach to the physically living on their death or find a living being from their near earthbound state. Whose to say that evil spirits cannot attach to OBErs?

Whatever or whoever these entities are, one thing is clear to me from my experience: Fear is the doorway through which they enter. Their only power over us is power we give them so don't give them any credit. Light is more powerful than darkness. Be the light and you will not be afraid. Being afraid attracts and invites negative entities and darkness in. You are telling them that they are stronger than you. I used to be afraid of them, afraid to go out at night. But as I developed spiritually, I realized that light has more power than darkness and I am stronger than they are. Be the light.

While I think the experiment is interesting, I don't subscribe to the theory. It's messy and too complicated, IMO. It hard to even imagine how many different universes there would have to be if every quantum event caused the universe to split into another 2 universes. On the other hand, Copenhagen's "wave function collapse" concept to me is a long way of saying "we just don't know what happens".

In light of recent experiments and the Leggett Inequality, the kind of inherent properties that materials appear to have in the world of classical physics, don't exist in the quantum world. Up to this point all the experiments have shown that in the quantum world, what's there is dependent on observation and there is no such thing there as the concept of "materialism" or "realism". Quantum physics is not compatible with the idea of an "objective reality". People who cling to materialism and realism are in one of those Many World's that don't exist.

Check out this link.

http://vimeo.com/85689418

Your misunderstanding of quantum physics has backed you into a corner which is impossible to resolve. Philosophy: you're doing it wrong.

This kind of comment reminds of someone who used to be here, but was removed from the forum after too much of it.

I'm hoping that you don't fall into the same category.

Just a thought, but...

Since we're all "one" consciousness... what one consciousness experiences, all consciousnesses have available... perhaps only on a completely subconscious, unknowable level to the individual.  This explains to me the ability to experience a location which you have never personally ever visited.

I read a book about a really interesting NDE where other beings that she believed were part of her soul group could share and take part in her experiences from any point of view. They could experience it from her point of view or anyone else's who was involved.

It would make sense that we should able to do this in AP as well. I think our experiences become part of a collective experience "database" that is accessible by all conscious entities. 

Ok... so I have never been to Jamaica. But I have seen Jamaica in film footage. I have experienced Jamaica in a limited sense without having to leave the country (in this analogy, replace "country" with "body" to get the full meaning). The experience of Jamaica for me was fully in my head. What do I mean by this? Well, I have not communed with Jamaica in the fullest sense in actually being present there, but my film footage was data that my brain was able to interpret as images of a place called Jamaica. So too I have come to understand projection. Time and space are not constraints, and more importantly they are definitely not constraints of non-physical reality. You are suggesting that I need to leave my body to actually see Jamaica, because you are thinking of it in terms of physical travel. There is no travel, there is only being there, or not being there. Leaving your body to me is a phrase that doesn't compute, because there is nowhere to go, when there is no such thing as space or distance.

There are what we call "real time zone" experiences, where it seems like we are viewing a facsimile of the objective physical world. I think this is why such experiences are partly accurate, and partly not- because we are trying to have an experience that is similar to our waking lives in the physical world, but that is not what things are at their core. Such experiences are heavily constructed around what our expectations are, so while we may be reading some "objective" outside data to represent the spaces to ourselves, we can't separate that data from what we expect the place to be like.

For example, say I visited a fishing village in Jamaica in my projection. I don't expect there would be a ghostly spirit body traveling around that village that others could pick up... I see it more like remote viewing... I read the data from great distance. Which is not to say you couldn't meet others in non-physical situations, but I don't think such meetings are taking place because two ghosts met, I think it happens because you both had the same resonant intention.

This all makes sense to me because I conceive the world as a sort of platonic simulation. There are no apples or chairs or oak trees- what I think there is, is a sort of metaphysical computer simulation of a reality with apples and chairs in it. But that reality is only interfaced with through sense data. The apple doesn't really exist, your perceptions of the apple are what exist. This is why I am speaking of data. It is like I am interacting with the program of reality, but because I am not doing it through the normal channels (my earthly senses), my brain is the one given the task of constructing representations of that data, which is in itself independent of those representations.

This is fairly close to how see it.

I also think the whole idea of "location" is really an illusion along with everything else that exists in the physical reality of time and space. If we never go anywhere, all places exist in one virtual reality or another so as with everything, it's your experience that truly is the reality. From the experiential level, the non-physical reality can be just as valuable as the physical. So my opinion is that all "realities" are simulated, whatever you want to call them. I would like to call them Consciously Manifested Realities. In order to those create those experiences, you only need two things: The simulator and the instructions (data) to feed into the simulator. IMO, part of what we doing here is gathering data.  So your experience of Jamaica can be just as valuable or maybe more valuable as going there in the physical sense.

Also have concluded that one simulation basically interacting with another is very difficult and not probable. Of course it's possible.

But getting back to the OP, I don't think our consciousness exists inside our bodies in the first place so we are never IBE. What changes is our awareness of it.

[Stop trying to bend the spoon]

O.K. you want to know the real secret to raising your vibrations? Here it is:

Stop trying to bend the spoon!

Your vibration level naturally wants to rise. The main thing is stop doing and thinking in ways that prevent it. That's the biggest problem.

In general anything that creates an attachment to that low vibration "physical dense ground" state (I'm trying to find words for it) will keep your vibrations closer to that level. Don't invest yourself in the plane of earthly physical existence. Practice living beyond that.

I found it amazing that these people seemed to think there was something wrong with me because I have come up with my own ideas about God, afterlife, our purpose here, etc. It was almost like they had never considered that you could actually do that. They were constantly checking in with their "belief book" and conferring with each other to see if what I was saying was allowable. Even trying at times to "make it fit". "We believe in the God of our Book, but what god do you believe in?" Actually, I thought there was only one. So much for ignorance being an excuse. Apparently their God was kind of an exclusive "members only" God. I could have some other God if I wanted, but they had the "God of the Book". You could make an advertisement: "What God is in your wallet?"

At one point they asked me, "where did you get all this from?" as if there must be some source of my ideas. There was kind of a condescending tone to the question. Beliefs seemed to be something that someone else comes up with. Your job is to consume them, and regurgitate appropriately when prodded without questioning. It was a really good experience for me because I told them I used to be in their belief system myself at one point, but left it. That definitely caused some problems for them, but that wasn't my intention. The woman seemed to feel sorry for me, giving me some aaw-poor-thing kind of looks and talk. "But don't you want to go to our heaven?" She asked in a soothing voice. I felt myself starting to growl but this was containable. It was an easy question to answer and I was almost ready for it. "No, I've thought about it actually and quite sure that I don't want to go there".  She was shocked. Then I asked her, "but what if there was someone there who said they could show that the truth was different from your belief system, would you listen to them." She answered, "No, not of it disagrees with the Book." That prompted me to say inside myself, "Thank you God, for saving me from this belief system, AMEN."

I spent several hours attempting to discuss AP with 2 people who were interested and somewhat open minded, yet too involved with their current belief system to go beyond a certain point. After thinking about for a while I realized that such individuals are BSL (Belief System Limited).

I will attempt a definition.

Belief System Limitation: A self-imposed barrier that prevents an otherwise interested and open-minded individual from considering any viewpoints beyond or not contained as a subset of their belief system. Such individuals are defined as Belief System Limited.

Always have an intent of what you want to do or accomplish in mind BEFORE you project.  This is to keep you on track.   It's too easy while projecting to lose focus on your end goal.

This is good advice as far as I'm concerned and something I find myself often regretting having not done. The more "presence of mind" you have during the experience, the more valuable the experience can be. Some mental preparation and planning is good and I find it's better to do as part of your general thought process so you can form it up as an intention rather than trying to "make it happen" when you are about to head out the portal.

There have been times when I created an intent and then got there, but wasn't prepared for what came next when I could have easily. This resulted in not being able to take advantage of the opportunity. You have to do things on the fly when you are there and that's much easier to do when you have some general plans made ahead.

Doubt actually manifesting.  
Repeat after me,  'I am the master and doubt has no place in my thoughts.'
Now then these artifacts of confusion will dissapear completely.

I knew that talking about the Randi Prize there was a bad idea  

But seriously, there is always the risk that doubts will manifest although most of my experiences have really been unaffected by my beliefs. There have been plenty of times that I stayed in absolute disbelief for the whole experience thinking the entire time about how I couldn't believe what was happening. To my surprise, nothing changed and there no noticeable adverse effects (other than feeling like an idiot). And other times, less often, when any doubt will immediately manifest. Most of what I would call my "real deal" NPR experiences have been less than believable. I often have not been able to completely believe that it is actually happening and sometimes leave because of this.

[/quote]

I've had many that are like that- like an 'office' space that is an anteroom to the actual projection, and every once in a while I would end up there on my way back from an adventure.  I remember I once tried to go overseas and got lost in the ocean, and when I got back the "gang" was there in the 'astral office' asking me how it went, laughing at me actually.  Later on I asked for help going there and it worked.  So I just assumed they were some part of my 'helpers/oversoul/or whatever you call them.'  They hardly ever volunteered anything, but helped when I asked.
I haven't seen 'them' in a while, that I can remember.

One of my experiences was really similar to what you are describing. The people there were just relaxing and socializing like they had just gotten off from work, but it seemed like the work part was what they were calling their "day-life". I had just materialized there, so they took notice and seemed a little surprised, but very welcoming. I'm really interested in finding my way back there, hopefully soon.

I've had several now, my most recent went like this:

It was my turn to host the monthly meeting where a group of APers would meet. The plan was to have these meetings at least monthly and we would meet at a different person's "house" for the purpose of trying to join up inside the room while projecting. There was quite a large group of people there. Everyone had started off in a separate room in the house and then we would project into this large room if possible to meet up there. We were doing things like counting our fingers and just comparing with each other, discussing the fact we were in the NPR. We were all excited that we were able to do it and how interesting it was. I consciously started to over-analyze things and questioning how I could know if the same people were there when we started, how could we be doing this, etc. That was when everything started fading out and I went back. It was strange because from there I had a false awakening and although some of the same people were there talking, we tested the reality and found we were not in the NPR. So I'm not really sure what was going on there, but I love the concept and find it very interesting.

I've dropped to the ground in a few retrievals kicking up a fuss to stay grounded. Your comment made me laugh. You do feel rather stupid doing it but failiure isn't an option and you do anything to succeed.
The people you are with just stop and wait as if it's perfectly normal.
This too is strange but a good thing.
These actions appear more common in the highly lucid experiences.

I try to do things to increase my conscious awareness during the experience like just making spontaneous unplanned decisions right in the middle of something. Also digging into the environment (sometimes literally), testing things, evaluating and comparing things with waking life reality all in real time, then consciously committing the results to memory. Especially love touching things and feeling their texture, solidity, weight, temperature, etc. That's so mind-blowing to me. One time I walked straight through a door/portal shortly after closing my eyes. I went into a city, crossed the street and straight into a store. I asked the person behind the counter if she could just open the packages and let me feel the contents. I even told her I didn't really want to buy anything, just touch. I spent around 15 minutes in there just letting her rip open the plastic coverings, then feeling the contents of the packages. She was very patient with me, even after a lot of "O.K., now that one, no the one next to that one. O.K. how about the one over there, that's the one." It's just absolutely incredible to be completely outside normal physical waking reality and yet experiencing another world, experiencing your environment as something totally separate from "you".

I would recommend not being concerned about the afterlife, just learning to be fully conscious in every moment of the present tense. Learning to live in the "eternal now" will help you understand that there is no "afterlife" only life in this moment of time which always will be.

[lot]

I don't think there are any "failures" unless you give up completely, that's really the only way you can fail. Every attempt is another opportunity to learn, even if you don't succeed in the way you planned. If you want to avoid feeling like you failed, it's better to not put big expectations on yourself and just have an attitude of acceptance. The more you practice, the better you get at it. You may not even realize the value of all the times you are practicing, but not getting where you wanted to go. Of course if you are starting to feel discouraged or burned out, you should take a break for sure. I've had many more experiences that I would consider less than successful, but I realize the value of that practice on those mornings when I close my eyes and the second I do, that world opens up before me and I just step into it. That doesn't happen that often yet, but it's worth a lot of "failures", that's for sure.

It has been said rightly above, you project unconsciously every night. Now, if you have multiple nightmares every night then it tells you maybe to wait with Astral Projection and maybe work on your fear issues first. You could attract negative experiences with fear or negative expectation indeed.

Agree completely. Working on your fears is the one of the most important things. Remember, fear is the doorway through which the darkness enters. Fear is saying: "I give whoever power over me."

Lucid dreaming means just, that you know, you are in a dream or at least that this is not real.

True, I know it's not real, but the problem I have is believing that it's not real. On the one hand all of my "senses" are telling me it's real, but I am somehow supposed to ignore that, because I know it's not real. There's always this struggle going on between what I somehow know, VS. what all of my "senses" are telling me. One time I was walking with a group of people on a trail, feeling the ground under my feet with every step, marveling at the beautiful scenery. Then right in the middle of it I just decided to stop and basically threw myself onto the ground and started grab the dirt and weeds with my hands, thinking "how can this not be real?" Everyone stopped and waited for me to get back up again. It's quite amazing really.

This quote is from Edain McCoy from her book "Astral Projection for Beginners". She says "Astral Projection is defined as any state in which your consciousness is immersed in a different time or place from that of your physical body. By this definition the act of Dreaming is also a form of Astral Projection". She goes on to say that "It surprises many beginners to find that most regular Astral Travelers make little or no distinction between Dreaming and Astral Projection - rather, they have discovered that harnessing the "Power of Dreams" can become an excellent conduit for controlled Astral Travel".

I completely agree with this as it has been my experience as well. The exact method you use to get there doesn't matter, just that you get there. What we are learning is how to navigate once we are there.