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why also shouldn't we be able to observe the faults of our society and work to make it better?

Because you are not an individual as your subject states.  You have no independent free will.  You are the totality of all the thoughts, experiences and influences in your life in the present moment of NOW.  In essence, You Are Now.  You can not choose what you will think or feel in each and every moment, it just is.  What you can do is observe what you have done in the moment and make a different choice in any future moment of Now but in each and every moment, you will choose based on all the examples you noted in your first post.  There is only One being here, living out its existence from different perceived individual perspectives.  These individual perspectives are only an illusion of separate individuals.  You are not your perspective, you are Now... the totality of everything.  You expereince the Self from your point of view (perspective) and the best way to "observe the faults of society and make it better" is to observe the faults in your own thinking and release the need to control anything... because like you say, you are not an individual.  When you can let go of resistance to how Anything shows up, you then come to know yourself as Life itself and you realize you Are the flow.

Why not just use Robert Bruce's method.  I did an interview with him which explained it, go to this interview link and you will get a tutorial in his words... and the method is really easy.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/WorldAwakened/2007/10/30/Robert-Bruce

Kerri

LOL!!  Karma that! 

Huh?  What planet are you from and why do you perceive that God is separate from you?

Zappazorn

Excellent post.

[Quote from SS_Patrick]

Hello everyone.  Good discussion.  I'm rarely around (seem to be coming around more lately) and saw this great thread.  I saw a few points I wanted to address.

Firstly, Hello WalkerInTheWoods, you already know you and I are on the same wavelength and zapprizorn, thank you for your awareness.  

Here are the posts that popped out to me that I wanted to address:

Quote from SS_Patrick

If that's enlightenment, then I don't want to become enlightened.

In my opinion that "there is no self" - stuff is an evil lie. Communist propaganda and nothing else. Everything is interconnected, but everything is not the same and everyone is not equal.

I think the misunderstanding here might be the definition of "self" or ego vs "Self" or Consciousness.  The ego or "little self" is the aspect of our awareness that perceives.  This is the aspect of you who experiences the world through your senses as zapprizorn pointed out earlier. To eat a mango, one must engage the senses.  If all of your senses are in working order, you will see, smell, taste, hear and touch the experience of eating a mango.  In order to do this, one will perceive that the mango is separate from you.  This is not so.  You are NOW.  Everything within your perceptual awareness in any moment is YOU experiencing Your SELF.  The misunderstanding comes in when you identify with only your body or the vehicle you use to experience your perceptual awareness.  Consciousness uses that vehicle to experience its Self but the vehicle (or body) is in no way separate from the experience. (I hope you are following me here)  There is nothing "evil" nor is there any propaganda, it is merely a shift in perceptual awareness from identification with the vehicle itself to that of the observer and the totality of the experience.  


SS_Patrick

No, there are definitely individual souls. Research on reincarnation and OBEs proves that.

This is also perceptual awareness.  All it "proves" is that One can create this experience.  It is not in any way separate from the totality of All you are.  There are no individual souls, just the perception of individuals.  I like to use the analogy of a sea urchin.  A sea urchin has many tentacles or spines.  Each spine may be perceived as a separate individual and who knows, each spine (if the spines of a sea urchin were self-conscious) may perceive itself as separate individuals and may perceive that the other spines were not an extended aspect of its Self.  The spines of the sea urchin do not have independent volition because they are One with the sea urchin.  Similarly, you as a person, are not separate from the rest of Consciousness, it is only your perceptual awareness that seems separate.  You and I and everyone else are all spines on the body of consciousness yet we perceive ourselves as separate individuals.  When we are acting from a place of ego, we will perceive that things "happen to us" instead of being an aspect of who we are.  Therefore, the more you accept the moment and "what is," the more you will find yourself in the flow of life because you stop fighting yourself and allow Consciousness to flow through you without judging things as good or evil, right or wrong, light or dark.  You then know you are ALL and Nothing both at the same time.


Sadd-e Eskandar

And what if the being doesn't want to be ethernal?

That would imply there are individual beings.  Since there is only One, it would be the ego that doesn't want to be eternal and the ego (sense of separate self) is the illusion.

Okay fair nuf 

You and me are persons.
Emergence - the process of coming into being.
Self-incurred immaturity - when we know better, but we fail to act.

For the record, I call myself Hayden. Awakened_Mind is a display name I found appropriate upon registration that people on these forums call me.

Secondly, it is still a strange question. You are not really asking "what it means to me" you are asking "what does that mean?". Don't you think? I am well aware of what it means to me, because I said it. Unless you are saying that you know what I meant more than I do? Which would be even more peculiar.

-AM

Actually, I was asking "what it means to you" because everything we think, feel, experience is a result of our perceptual awareness and I was trying to find out how that looked from your pov.  I would not proclaim that you could tell me what it means to "me" so thereofore I didn't ask you "what it means."  To ask you that would imply that your perception was the ultimate authority for ALL... it's not, it is merely a perspective.  Since we experience the world through our perceptual awareness, "What does that mean to you?" is really the only valid question to ask since the meaning from your pov and the meaning from my pov will be different.  BUT you can help me to better understand your pov by answering the question. 

From my pov your quote below means something different, the colored portion would be my interpretation from this perspective of what you were trying to say.  The words you choose don't resonate with me so I would go more for feeling of what I believe you were trying to say.  "Self-incurred immaturity" seems judgmental and convoluted to me so I would not use that terminology (which is why I asked the question in the first place.)  I will interpret your statement from my pov. 

Enlightenment is a mans emergence from his own self-incurred immaturity.

"Self-Awareness is an individuals release of borrowed belief systems."

Personally, I don't believe we are actually individuals, we just appear to be (the illusion) I also don't believe we really have any control over anything so to lay a guilt trip and judgment of "self-incurred immaturity" holds the undesirable behaviors in place.  Just looking will do and acceptance of what is will get you to a point of self-knowledge.  Self-knowledge to me is "Enlightenment" but the big question then is, "Who is the Self?"  Well that is why Self-knowledge would be important  .  Know Thyself and you know everything because you ARE everything.

I can't be arsed to go through this entire thread... but all conceptual realities are a myth... even our being here on earth and interacting with each other.  We make it all up as we go along.  This reality is as "real" as any sleeping dream and so are any stories within perceptual "reality."  So from one perspective, Jesus is a myth but so are you and I.  On the other hand, nothing is a myth and every thought or idea is real.  It all depends on ones perspective.

Is it?  You call yourself "Awakened Mind" this question should not be so strange for you if this is true.  So, I'll ask it again.  You are claiming that enlightenment is a persons emergence from his own self-incurred immaturity. What does that statement mean to you?  IOW What is "a person" what is "emergence" what is "self incurred-immaturity"?

Enlightenment is a mans emergence from his own self-incurred immaturity.

-AM

Okay and what does that mean to you?

because i think the ultimate meaning of life is to reach this level of conciousness, only once this has been achieved can you just stop existing if that is your choice. We are bound to this world until we can break free from it either through ascention or death, but only with ascention have we proven that we have outgrown the physical world entirely and therefore have the choice of how we wish to exist.

your next question was what powers or abilities would you gain. With ascention and enlightenment comes the ultimate understanding and knowledge of everything around you. Also your mind will no longer interfere with your actions or with anything that the mind first thought as impossible. What you could do is only limited by your imagination or the right energies needed to complete certain tasks. All it would take is time and training.

Loppoppy, I seem to be drawn to responding to your posts

Enlightenment is not knowledge and understanding.  It is the release of learned knowledge.  Also, individuality is entirely ego so "you" can't just choose to stop anything.  That would imply independent volition and that "you" are separate from the Whole.  "You" are not an individual, "You" are the Whole and "you" are All of everything.  It is only your perceptual awareness that makes you think you are an individual with independent volition.  "Everything around you" is still illusion.  Indeed everything is limited by your imagination but enlightenment comes with a "Letting go" of everything you perceive to be true and as a friend of mine says, "Flow with the go."  IOW, just flow and give up any need to control.

Great discussion here

Hi everyone.  Interesting discussion.  I find it increasingly difficult to find a worthwhile discussion to respond to in here so thanks for the opportunity.

well now that is a pickle. Even if someone had reached these higher planes of existence outside the comprehension of the physical mind, they would still not be able to explain such a thing to those around them. The only way to find out the answer is to experience it yourself.

You are correct it is shocking how small humans are in the scale of things which are not even on a scale as they are endless...:S.

Just imagine how spectacular it would be to not only extend yourself beyond the comprehension of mankind, but also be able to travel to those other countless planes beyond the comprehension of even the highest life form. Now thats farfetched.

Thing is, at those higher levels, "someone" doesn't exist.  Individuality fades and becomes a feeling of unity as you reach higher levels of consciousness.  This is why any Master will laugh at you if you ask the question, "Are you enlightened?" Because the master has an intimate understanding that the more intimate you become with yourself (your True and GodSelf) the less you cling to your individuality because your understanding of the expansiveness of your Being is realized. 

Those other "countless planes" are also illusion.  The illusion was created so there is something to experience.  Without the illusion there would be no experience at all, just perfect everything/nothing and lack of space and time.  The illusion is comprised of space and time and is witnessed through perception.  The individual is merely a minute perspective viewpoint within space and time.  Without these perspective viewpoints, the illusion would cease to exist.

[LOL!!!]

I think that being vegan is healthiest for the planet and the people.  I noticed that vegans are usually much kinder than meat eaters.  There must be some reason.

:locolaugh: LOL!!!  

There is one Soul.  Separation is the grand illusion.

YUP!!!  That's how you do it!!!  You Go!  Good for you!  :thumbsup:

[personal]

With respect; I think you are taking this a bit too far  

Maybe... maybe not.  I guess it all depends on your perspective.  From my perspective, we ARE ONE and no harm can be done to anyone, anywhere... we are ALL eternal and this "reality" is an illusion.  You can judge things as "good" or "bad" and are free to explore that duality... because it is a perfect process of knowing the Self.  

Personally, I don't think it really matters what people do or what or how they eat.   Exploration of our beliefs (the belief that eating certain things and being certain ways) is all part of the evolutionary process and personal exploration.  As One, if you feel judgment of "another" for something they do, that is something you might wish to explore within because the one you are judging is yourself.  

Kerri

Your body kills millions of bacteria every day.  Does that mean that you will suffer "negative consequences" from this natural occurrence?

yeah, yeah, yeah... LOL!!!   Lets not encourage him!  

it was pretty good, wasn't it?

It is true that everything is one, and that we harm anything else we harm ourselves. This is a Universal truth.

.

Adrian,

If you believe that everything is One, how can you believe that the One can be harmed?  

Kerri

What's the guy complaining about?
He was enlightened, wasn't he?

2cents & L&L
Jouni

:doh:
LOL!!!  That was pretty bad.

I say that things are not meant to be changed, unless it is meant to change, if it is meant to happen then it will.

Then that is what you create.

If I could visualize something and having it come true I would probably visualize girls and green things that fold

Then do it silly... Actually, it's not the green things that fold that you want, it's the things that can buy you.  Make yourself a visualization board so you can focus on what you want (funny this thread was reactivated today, I just went out to get supplies to make a bunch of these boards.)  Cut out pics from magazines and look at the board every day.  There is a movie called The Secret that was up for free on the internet but I don't know if it is anymore... but it talks about this subject and how creative our thoughts are.  The problem is, we tend to focus on what we don't want rahter than what we want... and whatever we focus on, the Universe says, "YES!!"  So if you say, "I'm a loser and have no money" the Universe says, "YES!!"  If you say, "I'm awesome, chicks dig me and I can afford anything I desire"  The universe also says, "YES!!"

Get it?  

Make yourself a poster of pics you wish to create in your life, spend some time with it every day and after a month, things will start turning around.  Do this for 15 minutes a day and I promise, things will start moving in the direction of your dreams.

Kerri

Those look like obs to me.  My daughter can see them and she says they look just like the ones in your pics we call them angels... and it makes sense that you would have them in those pics of the religious icons.  I have a friend who has millions of them that hang around his house.  If I can find the pics, I will post them.  The orbs look like an egg cell or concentric rings.  Dust looks like scratches.  

kerri

Hey!!! I like Nay too!  No fair claiming her all to yourself! :kermit: