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[Par Excellence]

Hey all!

I am going to back into research/writing mode and will not be a regular poster or Moderator for a while. I will let everyone know when the book is finished.  

Since you already know that the other moderators here on the AP are of par excellence, you also know that the religion section will not miss a beat in my absence.

If any of you want or need something specific from me--please feel free to PM me.

Keep questioning, and never stop seeking for answers!

See you all on the flip side  

Love to all,
~Beth

p.s. -- In parting, I can't resist....
Par Excellence "Being the best or truest of a kind; quintessential"
Quintessential "Representing the perfect example of a class or quality"

p.s.s. While I am sure that the "Truth" lies somewhere beyond words, arriving at a desired destination usually requires some help along the way. I love the words that our cultures have created...they are one of the many vehicles that help us transform the unknown into the known. IMO, true wisdom comes from the expansion of the Mind. When Knowledge is coupled with Experience, an excellent path is created. So, seek all available knowledge. It's as simple as asking for directions...with the bonus that the mind expands with every turn  

:reading: ........... :think:  ......... then :reading: and :think: some more!!

["They believe that what my dad says is law. He's the shepherd of the flock and he gets his inspiration from the Bible — he's the voice of God on earth,"]

OGDEN, Iowa - The soldier's flag-draped casket is set on the gymnasium floor, below the unlit scoreboard, before bleachers crowded with mourners.

They are there for Sgt. Daniel Sesker, the young man known for an infectious laugh and a wide smile, his life taken abruptly by an improvised explosive device outside Tikrit. Inside his high school, those who loved him are just beginning to grieve.

Outside, near a cornfield awaiting planting, picketers thank God for Daniel Sesker's death, talk approvingly of his entrance into hell, and mock the mourners. Amid gusting winds, they struggle to hold up signs that read "Thank God for IEDs" and "God Hates Your Tears."

And back home in Kansas, tucked away in an office over Westboro Baptist Church, Pastor Fred Phelps need only think of what he's done, and he cracks a smile.

He has, for 15 years, directed a campaign unlike any other.

At curbsides, outside funerals and before state capitols, Phelps and his followers have branded this a nation of sinners, of people bound to live eternity in a fiery hell. They have called homosexuals the disgusting face of evil, and fallen American soldiers proof of God's wrath. And they've sneered at every other faith.

They are unapologetic in delivering their message and have no hope of convincing you, just as they say there is no hope for this doomed nation.

It's simply their duty, they believe, to let it be known that God hates you. That you're going to hell. That you're wrong and Fred's right.

Westboro's protesters first gained widespread national attention in 1998. A 21-year-old University of Wyoming student, Matthew Shepard, had been lashed to a split-rail post, pistol-whipped, robbed, and left in near-freezing temperatures — all apparently because he was gay. Millions were horrified.

But not Phelps.

He and his followers showed up at the funeral with signs bearing their trademark message: "God Hates Fags." They chanted "Fags die, God laughs."

There have been thousands of protests since, at the funerals of homosexuals — but also at memorials for Mister Rogers, victims of Sept. 11 and West Virginia miners. There have been more than 25,000 such demonstrations, by the church's count.

Their belief in predestination — the idea that God determined at the time of one's creation whether they were bound for heaven or hell — is not unique. It stems from John Calvin's branch of the 16th century Protestant Reformation and is taught in mainstream churches.

Where Westboro parts ways, of course, is its emphasis on God's hatred and the way it spreads this message. Members believe they must alert the world's depraved sinners of their fate even though such people have no chance of going to heaven. They're not doing this to save you — they're doing it to save themselves...

The Westboro flock is out there all alone, both in their beliefs and in their methods. No other religious group has stepped forward to join them...

In the small sanctuary at Westboro Baptist — amid wood paneling, mauve carpeting and burnt-red cushions that recall a 1970s living room more than a house of worship — the congregation prays that all of God's chosen people will hear the call and make their way to this church. When the last person comes, they believe, Christ will return and the world will end...

The fluorescent lights shine on no crosses or paintings or statues, just a world map and a few signs. "Thank God for Maimed Soldiers," reads one...

"We pray for more tornadoes, we pray for more hurricanes, that Katrina's just a tiny little preamble," he says near his closing. "That's what we pray for."...

His demeanor shifts easily, quickly. He laughs, then looks sullen. Calls a granddaughter "love bug," then launches a brief tirade against Jews...

"That's one of the luxuries of being 100 percent right, absolutely 100 percent right," he said. "If you can read, you would agree with me."...

"They believe that what my dad says is law. He's the shepherd of the flock and he gets his inspiration from the Bible — he's the voice of God on earth," said the former Dortha Phelps, an estranged daughter who has taken the surname Bird to signify her freedom from the family...

He will die soon. His lifetime of preaching God's hate, he believes, has earned his place in heaven. And as his spirit ascends, protesters, no doubt, will assemble to celebrate his death.

Phelps has made it clear that he is overjoyed by the prospect. Bring a sign, he implores. Denounce me, defame me, he says. Dance on my grave, spit on my casket, laugh at my passing.

He knows the truth, he says. And in heaven, he'll just smile.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060603/ap_on_re_us/ministry_of_hate_2

Hey all,

The use of parable as a teaching tool is as old as written history, and was surely used long before in oral traditions.

Parables and metaphors are very powerful learning tools, and in the study of metaphysics it is oftentimes the best that we can do to get our points across! This is especially the case with the bible.

kai wren posted the following parable in one of the other religion threads, and I am moving it here to start a new discussion.

~Beth

___________________________________________________________
kai wren wrote:

Somehow I find myself reminded of this fable, now Mal-2 in this case is the founder of the Discordian movement- one of the most Holy Prophets of it. Indeed, he was the first Discordian Pope (I think) (also, edited for swearing)

One day, in the interests of religious cross-fertilization, Mal-2 went fishing. He baited the hook with his pineal gland, and quickly caught a nice big fish. Giggling maniacally, he dragged the little sucker into the boat and prepared to sermonize it to death.
"Wait!" said the fish.
"Why?" Mal-2 asked.
"I'm a talking fish! Aren't you curious? Talk to fish all the time, do you?"
"Nooooooooo."
"Well, then. Listen up. I'm The Cod."
"Was that a proper noun?"
"YES!" pronounced The Cod majestically. "I am a proper noun bearing COD, and you know what that means."
"Yes," Mal-2 sighed. "I've got to catch a less talkative fish." He picked up The Cod, and prepared to throw it back.
"Wait! I come bearing a message!"
Mal-2 sighed again. "I'm under contract to Eris. She made me sign an exclusivity clause. Besides, no one wants to listen to a fish."
"That's why YOU have to do the talking for me," Cod said desperately. "Look, you don't have to worship me, just, you know, when you tell people about Eris, maybe just kind of slip in, 'And you are all children of Cod! Hail Eris!', you know?"
Mal-2 lowered the fish, and looked it pentagonally in the eye. "We are all Children of Cod?"
"Yep."
"What, ALL of us?"
"Er... yes?"
"Even Eris?"
"Um, no. I guess not."
"So we're all children of Eris as well?"
"Sure. Why not?"
"Are you saying my Goddess had sex with a fish?"
Cod moaned in dismay. "Look, of course not. I'm just saying..."
"Well, she did."
The Cod paused. "Oh. Right. THAT party... woo. Well, irregardless. Will you do it?"
"Yes. But one more question about this Children of Cod thing..."
"Okay," the Cod shrugged. Mal-2 had never seen a fish shrug before, and was suitably impressed.
"So, all of us are Children of Cod? Everyone except Eris?"
"Yup."
"What about you? Are you a Child of Cod?" Mal-2 asked.
"Um, yes." said Cod uncertainly. "Yes! Yes I am!"
"How can you be your own child?"
The Cod looked at Mal-2 with an evil glint in his fishy eye.
"Go (edited) yourself!"

And Mal-2 was enlightened. But Cod sank his boat anyway, just for being a smart-butt. And he got wet, but didn't drown, and was still enlightened.

Hey all,

At the risk of moving too much into the political realm, I am starting a thread regarding the letter sent to President Bush from President Ahmadinejad of Iran.

I think it is an excellent example of how the impact of religion cannot be ignored as a major factor in what is going on in the world today.

Moreover, it is clear from this letter that all three of the biblical religions are going to have to "face off" sooner or later...with each other and with the rest of the world. It also looks like "sooner" is going to have to be the case.

In response to the letter, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice dismissed it as "a diversionary tactic," saying: "It isn't addressing the issues that we're dealing with in a concrete way."

I just read the letter, and while he definitely returns again and again to the topic of religion (primarily holding Bush to his profession of being a Christian), the way that Ahmadinejad actually "addresses the issues that we are dealing with" from his perspective are quite clear and very concrete.  

In fact, and this is a positive aspect, as far as "addressing the issues" themselves, I don't know how he could have gotten any more concise!

As a solution to all of our problems, however (and this is where the negative comes in), he is calling for "global unity" under a "biblically based monotheistic banner."

If you all can take a little extra time to read the whole thing, I would really like to know what you think...If you are interested in the state of religion in the world today, then it is definately worth the read.

Here are the links from NPR (National Public Radio):

PDF version of the letter itself from NPR:
http://www.npr.org/documents/2006/may/ahmadinejad_letter.pdf


The NPR story:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5392883


~Beth

To all Christian believers,

Since I have been rightly chastised for trying to "lump all Christians" into the same stereotype, please share here your own brand of the Christian message.

This thread is to share why and how your Christian belief is different from the most conservative position--which most of us are very familiar with.

For instance, my error came with a particular topic: Sex.  Please explain your Christian based attitudes toward sex.  How about toward birth control? Toward women in general?

Another good detail to include is your position on the eucharistic meal, aka, The Lords Supper. If your view is transubstantiation, i.e., magical transformation of bread and wine into Christ's body and blood, explain how you understand this to occur. Or if this ritual is only a symbol, how does it fit into your overall belief and practice?

How about hell, pergatory and the afterlife?

And most especially for this forum, how does your Christian belief support or discourage astral investigation, or other topics that this forum addresses?

Certainly include any other beliefs that differ from the well-known conservative beliefs that you would like to share with us.

Please do not argue with one another over the differences. This thread is for information purposes only.

All members may be able to learn something from this information, even if not Christians by faith.

Also, if any non-Christians have questions regarding the religion that they have never understood, ask away! (But BE NICE about it!)

Knowledge is a good thing.
~Beth

p.s. Please do not quote long verses of scripture; just paraphrase and cite the pertinent scripture. We can all look it up for ourselves!

p.s.s. No sermons please!! Just talk to us...

I have had several dreams over the last few months that involve "Trucks."

This is quite strange for me because I don't have a particular attachment to trucks... :confused:

Anyway, the first dream was a semi-truck (an 18-wheeler) that went speeding past me on the freeway and it slammed into an overpass, going right through it as it wrecked. It left a pretty good sized hole in the side of the bridge. I stopped in a far right hand lane, got out of my car and walked through the hole to see if I could help. When I got there though, emergency vehicles were already on the scene. The wreckage was a mess and ended up involving quite a few vehicles on the other side, but there was nothing that I could really do to help...

In the second dream, a fuel tanker came across the freeway in front of me and just turned right over on its side. I knew that the fuel was flammable and thought to turn around and go the other way, but was compelled to stay put and help if I could.

I know that "vehicles" can represent the "self" but in both of these dreams I am in my own vehicle and also behind the wheel driving at the time.

Nothing has recently occurred in my life that would explain these dreams (I don't think anyway.)

Any suggestions on an interp?

~Beth

This one is TOO FUNNY...

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/uclickcomics/20060331/cx_nq_uc/nq20060331

~Beth

Watch this....it's awesome!

(Make sure you have both video and audio...)

http://marketplace.espeakers.com/movie.php?sid=5290&aid=10558

~Beth

Hey all,

Some of us (maybe even more than not!) have had religious OBE's/Phasings/Lucid Dreams, etc., in that religious themes/symbols from either your own root religion, or another, were presented as provocative details.

If you want, share those experiences here!  I have certainly had a few (   ) but I will let others start with theirs first!

Thanks for sharing!
~Beth

Hey all!

(I posted this in the Religion Section, but Adrian suggested that I also post it here.)

A few of you know that I have been working on some independent research for the past several years.  

I have recently loaded it up a web site that makes it available to all who want to access it.  

It may require a bit of a time investment to look it over and to absorb the implications, but I have tried to make it as easy to 'grok' as possible, so maybe it won't be too bad.

Let me know what you think.

The main address is: http://www.fireonthewateronline.com

Peace,
Beth

Hey all!

A few of you know that I have been working on some independent research for the past several years.  

I have recently loaded it up a web site that makes it available to all who want to access it.  

It may require a bit of a time investment to look it over and to absorb the implications, but I have tried to make it as easy to 'grok' as possible, so maybe it won't be too bad.

Let me know what you think.

The main address is: http://www.fireonthewateronline.com

Peace,
Beth

Hey all!

Out of everyone who has encountered religious persons in the astral realm, e.g., Jesus, Satan, Abraham, Mary, Peter, Mohammad, Vishna, Buddha, et al, I am curious to know what discernable and identifiable features these persons had, and would you mind describing them here?

This is NOT a trick question!!! Honest!     I am very interested to explore to what extent our imaginations actually create the physical appearance of what we all encounter in the astral.  I know that I have certain visual ideas of what these people 'should' look like, but I can also say that this expectation is also created from the images passed through my cultural influences.

Let's compare thoughts here...

Peace,
Beth

Hey all,

After I create a post and then want to 'preview' it for review purposes, it only 'flashes' for an instant, and then returns to the create screen.  I usually have to go ahead and post it and then edit it if needed.

Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks,
Beth

This topic is addressed to everyone, for everyone here probably has a stake in this issue.

When attempting to describe the experiences that we are all discussing in this forum, so many of the details not only seem--but feel--like they are occuring outside of us.  This immediately creates the impression upon our minds that we are traveling outside of ourselves.  When, however, we realize that most people around us are totally oblivious to this kind of activity, then the mind is more accepting of the fact that it could all actually be happening within each of us.

Now, when attempting to understand the experiences that we are all discussing, there is more than one theory being presented.  There is a lot to be said for the theories that deal with out-there, for it cannot help but resonate truth, and yet it also makes a lot of sense that somehow it is all happening within us: this resonates as well, but we need to be very careful to avoid solipsism.

I would like to really discuss the "in's and out's" of this problem of subjectivity/objectivity.  Take for example Frank's theory: Death is the objective translation of the subjective action of a person permanently shifting their Primary Focus from Focus 1 to Focus 3 of consciousness.

While this certainly sounds reasonable and definately resonates, there are certain problems inherent with this claim, primarily:

1) If everything is happening within my own mind, then who exists that can even make a subjective decision except just me? There has to be more than just my mind/my subjectivity if there really are other people's subjective actions that I can objectively witness, e.g., as their death.  

This philosophical conundrum has been debated for centuries now (most often in theology) and there are actually a lot of situations that can be discussed within this realm of thought.  I think it is most germane to all of the discussions on this forum, however, and therefore worthy of our intellectual investigation.

So, what are your opinions on this topic?

Peace,
Beth

p.s. this topic has probably already been discussed in previous threads, but I would like to re-open the issue!  It never hurts to re-visit topics a new sometimes!

To the AP membership:

There has been a lot of debate on these threads about the origin and development of Christianity.  The debate about this can certainly continue, but here are a few of the textbooks that I have studied from. There are more, but these will get anyone started who is interested in learning more about this topic. These texts are included in the study of Christianity in most of American Academia--Seminaries included. These books explain the basics.


The History of the Church
by Eusebius,
translated by G. A. Williamson

The Early Church: The Story of Emergent Christiantity from the Apostolic Age to the dividing way between the Greek East and the Latin West
by Henry Chadwick

Western Society and the Church in The Middle Ages
by R.W. Southern

Early Christian Doctrines
by J.N.D. Kelly

A History of Christian Thought Volumes I, II, and III
by Justo L. Gonzalez

Anthropological Study Texts:

Anthropological Studies of Religion: An Introductory Text
by Brian Morris

These books should be available for purchase on Amazon.com or can be checked out through your Public Library system.

There are a great many books out there, but these books are the most reliable sources.  The Internet is also full of information, but my best suggestion for a starting place is "The Catholic Encyclopedia" found at: www.newadvent.org/    That link will keep you busy for quite a long time!!  

May these resources help all of those on their journey.[]

Dear Beth
I am praying that you will be able to write the book and that the truths you have found will be properly reflected, in your words. I am sure it will be a tough task. Whenever we "get" something from God it is always a fearful task to put it in words without compromising its purity by our own "coloring" of the material, by opinions and jumping to conclusions.  

I will be glad to answer you to the best of my ability but I ask you to remember that as a layman I have not attended seminary classes or hold any degree so what you get will only be my opinion , and not the voice of Christianity so to speak. First I ask you to remember that it says " he that comes to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him".

This is then the prime requisite to understanding the Scriptures. They are unlocked so to speak by faith placed in them and also locked by unbelief. It seems to me that all God wants is an honest heart seeking to know, so you should be in the clear here. What you are asking is dealing with quite complex doctrinal points so it is probably boring to most !Anyway here goes

(Beth)1--When we interpret the "names" of the NT, the overall message is the following: It is "Salvation" that "dies on the cross" --for "we as people" "know not what we do wrong"--it is our personal "Salvation that dies on the cross for the sins that we all commit."Why is it so necessary that this had to be a real human person, i.e. Jesus the man, that died on the cross 2,000 years ago? Why can't this same illustration be a "message to us all" -- a message that is universal and available at all times instead of just one time 2,000 years ago? That by not living through love for one another and mutual respect for one another (which covers just about all the commandments Old and New) that "our salvation" is doomed to a death that will be lived out in hell?

(MS)First Beth it is a message to us all, it is also universal and available at all times as the B. says "Jesus Christ the same yesterday today and forever". Robert has a very interesting piece on reincarnation where he talks about the possibility that we live our multiple reincarnations all at once. This is quite interesting. There is a doctrine called "predestination" that covers this somewhat and it is fascinating. Christ is thought to be omnipresent. Existing at all levels and astral planes simultaneously. !! His message is as you rightly notes that of love one for another mutual respect but it also seems that he (having lived on earth) knows man.

( Jhn 2:25  And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.)

He knew that man was week and not able to love with this kind of love and so did it for us so to speak. Through remembering Him and asking his help we become able to live like Him. It does on the surface seem confusing but it does make sense. It also says that "1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.It is thought that since God is love a person is not able to love without being inspired by God, and coming to a full understanding of this being the way it works is a deeper understanding of the nature of salvation.

(Beth)
2--When we interpret the "names" in Genesis as found on the surface layer of scripture, we find that "Adam" stems from the same root as "dust, ground" and "Eve" means "to give life to." Adam and Eve therefore, represent the idea of "physical matter having LIFE" which is something that I don't think any of us would disagree on. The "breath" that God "breathed into the nostrals of Adam was the Soul" and the "joining together of Adam and Eve" gives us the idea that "the SOUL as found in physical matter is ALIVE" in its own right. "Outside of the Garden", i.e., in the physical world, these two things, e.g., physical matter and soul, come together to propogate our species. As a note: In the Bible, thereafter, "man" and "woman" also have different words, "ish" and "isha" but when "Adam" is used, it is usually translated as "human being or humankind" in a generic sense. Why must people believe that this is the actual accounting of the first man and woman on this planet? Why can't this be an accounting of the fact that we, as humans, do exist in physical bodies, and that we DO have "Souls that exist" in their own right? And further, that "we--as beings that are alive" are really "souls" that currently reside in physical bodies in the physical world, "outside" of our natural environment where things are most probably very different?

(MS)
This also is very reasonable question and many Christians believe what you say. There is especially in USA however a strong fundamentalist movement who reason like this. In Bible interpretation everything that can be taken literal should be taken literal. This then is debatable within Christianity. It is not seen as a point of division or something to lose your faith over and within families even people disagree. The Fundamentalists however have taken these issues and made them cardinal points, I think for fear that the wildfire and lack of control  that could come from a non literal interpretation could weaken their clout and power. Some probably just believe it and some are in between. As for myself I can only say that as I grow and mature the whole universe is opening up. Things I never thought was possible is and others that I took for granted as a child are not. We live in a very mystical world and I somehow "believe" but I do not claim to know. I find it rather trivial and unimportant but need desperately to have the freedom to believe it if I choose to.

(Beth)
3--Because the Bible was originally written in Hebrew and Greek, the languages surely must be known and understood to really know and understand what the scriptures are truly saying. English is a wonderful language, but it did not exist during biblical times. The English vocabulary is made up of words from all over the world, and has a great many words that were not available when the Bible was written. As I found when I studied these languages, the English translations that we have has really distorted a lot a "key" words from the Hebrew and Greek, AND with some words it has not captured the true meaning as found in the Hebrew/Greek.Why don't people who believe in the bible as "ultimate truth" want to study the original languages that it was written in? Why do they so readily accept it in English and yet not in Hebrew and Greek? Why aren't you compelled to learn to read the Hebrew and Greek to find out for yourself? Why do you so easily trust people who have translated it for you into a language that was non-existent at the time, and then a language that was only available a relative few centuries ago? And further, why do you distrust me so much, a person who is willing to tell you what the original Hebrew and Greek texts are saying?

(MS)
I actually did speak a fair amount of Greek as I lived there for several years. I do have some linguistic knowledge but I just found Greek very trivial and harder than the average language. I am already fluent in Danish, Swedish Norwegian, German, Dutch, Hindi, and somewhat knowledgeable in French and Arabic as well. But it took me a long time to learn those and  I just found it too difficult I think to add another one. (maybe I am getting lazy in my old age[]) I do read the Bible in both Greek and Hebrew with translation bibles. They have all the verses translated word by word and then I use a Greek dictionary. I find it fascinating but tedious at times. Something I reserve for quiet evenings when some scripture has been bopping through my head all day. Sort of a luxury. I am a dad and husband and still have to support myself. Many Christians do study in Greek and Hebrew. Classes are readily available and tool like dictionaries are in many studies I can assure you. It seems some translations are closer than others. I find though that the King James version in closest  and has a very interesting history to it. It is off on some points such as "ecclesia" "aeon" as well as " hades Gehenna and sheol" but all in all I think it portrays the message well. These mis translations has given rise to many horrible misinterpretations of the scriptures and outright false teachings. But as someone rightly said.

Christianity has deteriorated into a pocket philosophy  and folks like the ready packed TV meal so they can get on with their materialistic lives , we all know that. I also adhere to the belief that Gods spirit is in the words and it is a live thing. Which makes it magical and this is also a reason I do not take it as a manuscript only.  

(Beth)
4--The Apostle Paul speaks to the Galatians about "Sarah" and "Hagar" representing "two covenents" and gives an interpretation of these "people" that coincides with his other overall message of "salvation through anointment" and that of "another more heavenly world" than this one. Does this not send up "a flag" to you, that this may be a very important group of verses? That perhaps this was the writer's way of saying that "Sarah" and "Hagar" do not represent real people, but rather are indeed representative of somthing else, e.g. "two covenents"? (This one I ask you, not to "trap you" or anything. I ask because it did send up a "red flag" for me, and I am just wondering why it hasn't done the same for you.)

(MS)No it really dosn't. As I believe that both Sarah and Hagar were real people and understand that Paul was trying to explain the problem of the flesh children and those who believe by faith. This is actually another very big thing in the Christian world. Are the Jews the actual Children of God. Some say yes and some no. I believe that he has only spiritual Children who worship him by faith, this is what Paul spoke of. 2 covenants, one to the Jews until Christ and the next to the ones who received him and his sacrifice. With the Jews becoming the old Church so to speak

(Beth)
5--This next one relates back to the first one. If our "salvation" is on the line everyday, for "like a thief in the night" we know not when "that day will come", how does a god-man dying on a cross 2,000 years ago really help us with our salvation today? How can a god-man die 2,000 years ago for sins that have yet been committed, and doesn't this make it okay to sin now, for they were all absolved in his ancient death so long ago? I have never understood this part--even as a young girl. It never rang true to me--long before I could even put my question into words. It just never made sense to me--until now. That is, as I stated above, it is "my own salvation" that will "die" at the cross-roads of "my own sins." I am ultimately responsible for my own sins, for my own "salvation" at "my own death." My salvation, or lack of it, will be determined by how I have lived my life. Help me here Mustardseed--I really do not understand how someone else can die on my behalf and absolve the repurcussions of my behavior.

(MS)Again a valid and very good question and one that has haunted Christianity for ages. If God forgives sin in the past present and future then why not have a great sinning time. There are of course scriptures that explain  this point especially in Romans 3 and 7 , but in simplicity the answer is. When we sin we also reap the result of sin, which is a weakening of the spirit. We lower our resistance, and become useless in varying degrees of course to ourselves and God. Robert Bruce touches on this beautifully in his book and it is something that Christians should all read. Sin is sin and it infects the spirit no matter what. I believe however that we are still saved even though we sin but that we will end up in different astral levels be course of or as a result of our lives here. Some will have shame and condemnation and some will shine. It will be a continuation of the lives people lived here. I have done some praying as I believe in Salvation being possible after death, the doctrine of Limbo, I think retrievals it is called here in the AP and it shows what sin does to a soul. It is chains. Some think sin is fun but it has a bad result. Now I do have to explain that some things that churches do consider sin is not sin to me. Drinking alcohol, sex (even before Marriage ha!) To the pure all things is pure, as well as OBEs and many other points that the church use to exert power over people.  But acts done deliberately to hurt and harm is sin and has a very devastating karmic effect as well as a bad effect in this life.

Your last point is the core of Christianity. I cannot help you that much be course it is something that has to be experienced. The scriptural points are of course  well known  to you. That there could be no forgiveness without a sacrifice. Cain and Abel and on and on to the days of the Jews with their Passover. The blood of the lamb was the mercy of God to make the angel of death Passover the doors of the Jews in Egypt and Christ was the Passover lamb so to speak who gave himself to be atonement for sin.

It is all very sort of stiff and doctrinal but it is simple too, if you try to feel for it. I experienced it myself years ago. I met someone who told me this and as I had some recent experiences in the spirit with the name of Jesus I repeated a little sincere prayer "Jesus come into my heart and forgive me for all my mistakes and give me your love to love the world for you" and my world exploded with love for my fellow man Beth.

Now please do not misunderstand this, this is not a attempt to evangelize you but it is what happened and what makes Christianity a living faith to me, all else is doctrine only, no heat no warmth.

(Beth)
6--In the material that I presented here on the AP, was there any better way that I could have presented it, that would not have caused such a problem for you, or would this kind of information cause a problem regardless of how it is presented?

(MS)
I don't know really. Maybe you could have been a little lighter on the conclusions and more heavy on respecting some ones previous belief. We all evolve in understanding. You came in at a intense point. Robert had just promised us all they we would "be blown out of the water" by you so it was also involving a lot of pride. Generally noone likes being "blown out of the water" I guess[]. People are like a wet noodle Beth .Put a bit of spaghetti on a table and try to push it forward. .........See  a mess right. Now grab one end and try to gently pull it. Ahhhhh...People do not like to be pushed and to be told they are wrong and someone else is right. They need to make up their own mind and draw conclusions. Like the police officer said to the woman "give me the facts mam just the facts".

(Beth)
7--And finally,I have more questions, but I will only ask one more. Why am I "the bad guy" to you? Why have you been angry with "me"?

(MS)
Well Beth I do not think you are the bad guy really. I find you very sincere and as I said your research immensely interesting. I did have a tough time with you at times but that exposed a lot in me as well so I have gained valuable lessons from it but I would say you "irritated me" (get ready now you asked for it ok!) First,  be course of the above. Secondly be course you thought you knew "what I was all about" and seemed to assume I was "just another Churchy fundamentalist", be course you disrespected me at times and taunted me publicly for very dear personal experiences I told you in private. Be course you presumed to have the answer and seemed so cock sure of your own superior research. I will include a very nice qoute for a further explanation of my sentiment

(Qoute) Question everything, especially the sacred cows of dogma. Always think for yourself. Experiment and learn from all that life has to offer you. Listen to and consider the wisdom of others, and try on their ideas as you might try on a new coat for size. Never buy a new coat just because it seems to fit; it must be practical, within your price range, and look good on you too. And above all, build your own foundation belief system from the wealth of your own personal life experience.      Robert Bruce

Beth I think you are OK, and I am sorry I flew off the handle so often. I have no grudge towards you, as far as I am concerned it is water under the bridge. Another thing I use Jesus for to forgive and forget. I in turn ask you to forgive me, for unkind words and harsh judgments.

(Beth)
Mustardseed, you and I have really been around the block together now, and I hope that you will answer my questions. I truly ask them in all sincerity. These really are a problem for me, in that, I do not understand why my material is such a threat in this day and age. I can see where it would have been a threat many centuries ago, but that threat is no longer present.

(MS) You are no threat to me Beth. If what you say is true I have been blessed to hear it. If not I trust God will tell me. But it is a bigger threat now than ever. To others. !!!!!! Peoples lives are at stake. Crystal cathedrals and mighty buildings and denominations of MAN, a whole world of stiffened Christians. I do believe you are on to something Beth but will wait to read the Book before I make up my mind what it is. You have been given insight into some matters that has been seemingly hidden for a long time. I believe God is in it. Give Him the credit and let people draw their own conclusions. Do not fight against Christianity. If you have to fight anything fight the stiffened Churches and their withered sepulchers and their damnable doctrines and their lack of love, but do not fight Christ. Remember the scripture.  

Act 5:39 But if it (Christianity) be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God

I wish you all the best, clarity, inspiration and a love for the people, give and it shall be given to you. Seek and ye shall find knock and it shall be opened to you,

Regards Your friend

Mustardseed

Wow interesting facts. I did not know they had $1 Billion of merch. WOW!

Beth,

You are an excellent moderator and have done a superb job by my account. Writing a book is something I haven't done but imagine it to be both difficult and a time consuming enterprise. All the very best to you in your endeavor. You will be greatly missed here, so please stop by when you can.


Warm regards,

Logic,

I posted my own interpretation of this in the "End of Days" thread.  With my interpretation--there is no contradition at all.  Apocalypses come not just once (or twice), but every day in many ways.  I will re-post it here:

Hello everyone! – Discussions of nuclear armaments aside, here is MY take on this concept.  My interpretation is two-fold: One is personal and one is global.

From my metaphorical reading of the apocalyptic scriptures (canonical and non-canonical,) and then trying to understand their highly cryptic messages, I have thus applied them to my own life. In doing so, I realized that I have experienced "The End of Days" many times in my life.  I will explain.  

For me, whenever I progress to a new level in my spiritual awareness, my life is forever changed.  There is no way that I can go back to seeing the world the way I did previous to the advance.  In essence, the moment of epiphany or the period during which I am experiencing a leap of consciousness, marks the "End of Days" as I have known them.  These periods are oftentimes very disturbing, full of unanswered new questions, both of which are challenging me to discard old beliefs for new incoming understandings and ways of living.  Many of these times have been very painful. Sometimes this was the loss of loved ones that I had been attached to for many years; in relationships that no longer served my spiritual progression.  These people have been blood relatives, spouses, and friends. Most often this has come in the form of a parting of ways, which are "emotional and psychological deaths," but sometimes it came through physical death.  These losses can be very shattering experiences. But I always found in hindsight that this was always best—for either them or me—and perhaps for both. This same thing also applies to job losses, accidents, physical illnesses, and depressive episodes. In essence, I have lived through many "End of Days" and they are not over yet.  This is my personal application of this epic message.
 
Where do I get this?  In the biblical epic, metaphor and allegory are heavily used when writing of the "End of Days."  In Hebrew, Jerusalem means "City of Peace."  As a person, as an individual, I am a "city" unto myself.  "My city" is where I live, where I do my spiritual work, and where I must make my way as best as I can.  "My city" has psychological "walls" to protect it, "roads" of "knowing" to help me navigate through life, and even an "inner sanctuary" in the center of my city that acts as my temple, a place where I go to make most of my better decisions and reflect upon the future and purpose of my city.  "Other people" also inhabit my city.  I have "a wife" which acts as my intuition; I have a "husband" which is my "reasoning capability"; I also have "passions" that act as prostitutes, "prison guards" that inhibit my growth, and even "rulers" that govern my attitudes and behaviors. These governors are my "conscience" and they "punish" me when I have strayed.  

When I am content, I can truly say that I live in a "City of Peace."  When I am offered advancement however, "My City of Peace" is attacked, brutally sometimes, and ultimately destroyed.  And yes, "death" of "what these people represent" occurs around and within me. But with all destruction there is new building, the raising of a New City and with every new city there are new marvels to discover.  (Many of us have experienced these kinds of marvels through our consciousness expanding experiences and in our contact with the Astral Realm.) Each time I build a "NEW JERUSALEM" I am building a "New City of Peace" within myself.  

So to me, when a person steps onto and makes the conscious/free will decision to walk their spiritual path—no matter what it requires of us—there are many "Ends of Days."  When I have "walked through the fires of my judgment" through my own personal "purgatory" time and time again, answers to old troubling questions have always been answered. More often than not, this takes "time."  But, in time, I always come out a better person, a more loving person, and a more spiritually aware person.  With every spiritual advancement new and more perplexing questions have arisen that I am sure will be answered in the same way. I think that to "stop" at any one junction and settle into any dogma that would cause me to cease in my spiritual growth, would truly be Hell—a perpetual Hell.  I hope that as long as I am in this body that I will continue to progress along my path, even if I must continually experience the pains of each of my "End of Days."  

In NT terms this is found with Jesus (it will come like a "thief in the night"), but also with the Apostle Paul.  As I have stated elsewhere, Paul and his contemporaries were expecting and yes hoping, for Christ to return any minute, any day, or any week.  Paul's life, as depicted in his letters shows of many trials, tests, and the ultimate overcoming of those trials.  When you look at all of this in a different context, I am sure that Christ did return, every minute, every day, and every week as individual people experienced their own spiritual progress.  As a group, these earliest Christians were jointly experiencing an "End of Days" as well, where old ideas were being left behind and new growth was taking place.  Individually and together, these people were striving for a better life and a better world. This brings us to a global application of "The End of Days."  

On a larger scale, this process is much slower, because it must take the status of all people into consideration.  Metaphorically, Jerusalem can also represent the "physical world" – the world that all of us share. Globally, history shows us many such "Ends of Days" where power exchanged hands, territories expanded and broke apart, oftentimes at great expense to the people.  But in this, "great leaps in consciousness" have also been made, where old ideas were discarded and left behind, making room for new experiences and new ways of understanding.  These periodic "End of Days" have helped us all to progress as a world people.  

For one example, the western idea that the earth was at the center of the universe was very ingrained in people's view of reality.  Imagine what it would have been like to have a belief like that taken away!  Since then, look how far we have come and how much broader our view of reality is—and yet—many do not "believe" that there is life anywhere else in the universe.  Global progress takes time.  In this process, we still have a long way to go however, for in many ways we are stuck.  We still live with tyranny, both political and religious.  We still have wars, weapons of mass destruction, mass hunger and mass disease.  

As a global society we have, so far anyway, failed in the tests of some of the most simple of all spiritual lessons: we have failed to "Love one another, as each of us wants to be loved"; we have failed to see where "we reap what we sow"; and, we have failed to seek those things that are the most important. As found in Matthew 6:19-21, "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."  

My treasures are all of the precious lessons that I have learned while I have built, destroyed and rebuilt, my ever-new "Personal City of Jerusalem."  As a global society, I have to wonder what our treasures are now and what they will be in the future.  

So, may we all continue to experience apocalyptic times in our lives and as a global society may we learn our lessons as quickly as possible.  

Peace,
Beth

Man that is a cool dream Beth, but it might not be able to work.  If the machine was able to pick up the voice from the astral it would be great and it would be proven to everyone that there is a 'life' after death.  But I think that some would still be sceptic, that is just how humans are.  A way to do this without someone already being dead would be to have the person not be at work and project into the real time zone and try it from there.  It might work or not since isn't it hard to have the astral interact with the physical?

This is the new discussion that is going on between mustardseed and wisp. I am moving these posts from another thread.  

quote:I do have OBEs and Lucid dreams and have had them since childhood. In my later years they have become stronger and I found out by coincidence , not Reading books how I could make them start and go away. My main question is this. WHY. ? Whats the plan? So far I have through that been able to relate to this board and certainly have a deeper understanding for folks who have them too and are scared by them. Maybe that is why. I do not desire to go into the Astral all that much though I can project almost at will.
Regards Mustardseed

 

quote:Mustardseed,
That's pretty amazing what you know, and what you can do. Could you be stirring up some confusion in the mix?
I'm just guessing, but have you ever tried giving up being the rescuer and/or the comforter? At what level this would be, I wouldn't know. This is a tough one to figure, it may take some time. [written by wisp]

quote:Dear Wisp
I am not sure I understand your post, could you repeat it in a different form. About giving up being the rescuer/comforter, you certainly have a point. I realised long ago that this is such a deep instinkt in me and I often tried to stop being that way. I never seemed to succed and have come to accept that as "the way I am"(I know...it sounds like a cop out!!) Anyway It fits quite well into my beliefsystem with Jesus and all that and also having brought up many many children and having been a Dad for the past 28 yrs. Maybe it is just something I cling to becourse of it being the comfortable way. I dont really know. What do you think.?

I think these posts bring up a very good discussion of "why we are the way we are," "why we feel compelled to do what we do" and "why it is SO important to us."

Lets see where this one goes...

Peace,[]
Beth

As this is an altogether different topic regarding 'must read' books (from my own separate topic on this specific book) I'm hopefully not repeating myself.  My recommendation would be: The Rock of Truth by Arthur Findlay. This is the book to read that cuts through dogma and doctrine about the origin of Christianity, the bible and Jesus. The first part of the book has chapters with such topics as: The Truth; The Old Religions; The Christian Religion; and What did Jesus really teach?

Although the author transitioned to the nonphysical in 1964, he left behind a number of worthwhile books, The Rock of Truth being one. During his physical life he gave public addresses and was very well respected in the fields of History, Spiritualism, Mythology and Religion. I highly recommend this informative and literate work.


Very best,

Druidism is really an oral tradition, so it is a bit hard to put it down to writing.  I usually give my teachings orally, sorry, it just seems more right.  Ill type stuff, but just short snippets.

You should try reading Jean Mearkle - The Druids, Celtic priests of Nature.


That isnt how you spell his surname, but i cant rememeber how to, and the book is about 300km away.

Beth, from what you know on the topic, is this information on Kabbala factual?

http://members.tripod.com/~RobertGillette/Kabbalah.htm

It is written by a very anti-kabbala Jew: Kabbala traditions are pagan, and the author believes paganism has no part in Judaism.  I don't necessarily agree with his premise; I just want to know if the facts presented are actually factual.  

Thanks!

It gotto Chirstianity because all religions like languages are from the same place.

That place is SUMERIA.

I am personally a bit disapointed in most groups who use the name "wicca".  There IS real Wicca.  And there is the "God-knows-what stuff some people do in the name.
For those who do walk the way, there is a village in a certain country.  Every man, woman, and child in the village are initiated members of the old way.  This village has been this way for centuries.  I have a dear friend who is allowed to go there once a year, and while there they will give this friend one hour.  During that hour my friend can access the greatest book of shadows the planet has probably ever known.  Their book goes back to beyond the 1200's AD.  My friend then let me study, and copy if I wished, from the notes taken.  Herb remedies hundreds of years in the proving by trail and error.  Psychological insights that became customs and ways they trod because they produced results.  A truly astounding group.
Do they have real practical powers?  One night a few years back, my friend invited me to take part in certain things they did on that day.  Half way into the evening, a lovely Druid Princess went to the altar, and when she raised her hands and began to chant, even the stars got quiet.  We were all asked to leave the room while she "prepared the place" for what was coming.  Little did we suspect.
While we were all outside a sudden silence fell over the space.  Like a vacuum that sucked all sound out and put it in a bottle for the djinn to keep.  Suddenly I felt the most intense, from-the depths-of-my-soul love welling up within me.  I stood there a second and then I recognized that "footprint".  It was ISIS.  I had not felt that presence in a very long time, and could hardly believe SHE was present.
We were summoned back into the room and the druid priestess stood tranposed before us.  She had willingly given her body to our Lady so she could preside.  And preside she did.  At the end, each of us was drenched in sweat from the high energy we were working in...and the priestess who was assisting said each of us could come to the Lady and ask her one question.
When I got there, before I could speak, she called me by a name.  I knew then that this was no imagining.  She then asked if I remembered a time I had done a certain deed for her.  I finally squeaked out a "Yes."  She said she had never forgotten and from this point on I was under her care...until another teacher came ready.  Then she touched 3 places on my head.
It took my days to get over that night.  And the teacher showed up just as she said.
There IS Wicca.  I know because I have seen it and been in it's working.  Just remember, SHE is there to all who reach for her.
Blessed BE
Blessed IS.

[Miracles of the Qur'an]

Miracles of the Qur'an

This information is gathered from the studies of Harun Yahya and his Book, Miracles of the Qur'an.  You can also read his books online for free at, http://www.harunyahya.com/index.php

There are people who do not understand the vast amounts of knowledge that is within the Qur'an, knowledge which only today has been proven scientifically accurate.  I would also like to state that the Qur'an was never altered, as in the case of the Bible.  We know this as fact because we have found pieces of gold with the Qur'an inscribed on it which date back to the Origin of Islam.  The most valuable proof I can offer to you, that the Qur'an was never altered, is an old 14th century Quran which is left in tact and can be viewed by anyone.  The following link will take you to a page where you can actually veiw the 14th century Qur'an online:

http://www.bl.uk/collections/treasures/treasures.html#

Now on to the Miracles of the Qur'an:

"He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth."(The Qur'an, 6:101)



This information given in the Qur'an is in full agreement with the findings of contemporary science. The conclusion that astrophysics has reached today is that the entire universe, together with the dimensions of matter and time, came into existence as a result of a great explosion that occurred in no time. This event, known as "The Big Bang" proved that the universe was created from nothingness as the result of the explosion of a single point. Modern scientific circles are in agreement that the Big Bang is the only rational and provable explanation of the beginning of the universe and of how the universe came into being.

Before the Big Bang, there was no such thing as matter. From a condition of non-existence in which neither matter, nor energy, nor even time existed, and which can only be described metaphysically, matter, energy, and time were all created. This fact, only recently discovered by modern physics, was announced to us in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago.



The sensitive sensors on board the COBE space satellite which was launched by NASA in 1992, captured evidentiary remnants of the Big Bang. This discovery served as evidence for the Big Bang, which is the scientific explanation of the fact that the universe was created from nothing.

In the Qur'an, which was revealed 14 centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described like this:

"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47)

The word "heaven", as stated in this verse, is used in various places in the Qur'an with the meaning of space and universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning. In other words, in the Qur'an it is revealed that the universe "expands". And this is the very conclusion that science has reached today.

Until the dawn of the 20th century, the only view prevailing in the world of science was that "the universe has a constant nature and it has existed since infinite time". The research, observations, and calculations carried out by means of modern technology, however, have revealed that the universe in fact had a beginning, and that it constantly "expands".

At the beginning of the 20th century, the Russian physicist Alexander Friedmann and the Belgian cosmologist Georges Lemaitre theoretically calculated that the universe is in constant motion and that it is expanding.

This fact was proved also by observational data in 1929. While observing the sky with a telescope, Edwin Hubble, the American astronomer, discovered that the stars and galaxies were constantly moving away from each other. A universe where everything constantly moves away from everything else implied a constantly expanding universe. The observations carried out in the following years verified that the universe is constantly expanding. This fact was explained in the Qur'an when that was still unknown to anyone. This is because the Qur'an is the word of God, the Creator, and the Ruler of the entire universe.


From the moment of the big bang, the universe has been constantly expanding at a great speed. Scientists compare the expanding universe to the surface of a balloon that is inflated.



"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder, and We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"
(The Qur'an, 21:30)

The word ratq translated as "sewn to" means "mixed in each, blended" in Arabic dictionaries. It is used to refer to two different substances that make up a whole. The phrase "we unstitched" is the verb fataqa in Arabic and implies that something comes into being by tearing apart or destroying the structure of ratq. The sprouting of a seed from the soil is one of the actions to which this verb is applied.

Let us take a look at the verse again with this knowledge in mind. In the verse, sky and earth are at first subject to the status of ratq. They are separated (fataqa) with one coming out of the other. Intriguingly, when we remember the first moments of the Big Bang, we see that a single point included all the matter in the universe. In other words, everything, including "the heavens and earth" which were not created yet, were included in this point in a condition of ratq. This point exploded violently, causing its matter to fataqa and in the process created the structure of the whole universe.

When we compare the expressions in the verse with scientific findings, we see that they are in perfect agreement with each other. Interestingly enough, these findings were not arrived at until the 20th century.


The picture represents the Big Bang, which revealed once again that God created the universe from nothingness. The Big Bang is a theory that has been proven with scientific evidence. Although some scientists tried to advance alternative theories against the Big Bang, scientific evidence caused the theory to be completely accepted by the scientific community.




"It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They swim along, each in an orbit. "
(The Qur'an, 21:33)

It is mentioned in another verse, too, that the Sun is not static but moves in a definite orbit:

"And the sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. "
(The Qur'an, 36:38)

These facts communicated in the Qur'an have been discovered by astronomical observations in our age. According to the calculations of experts on astronomy, the Sun is traveling at the enormous speed of 720,000 kilometers an hour in the direction of the star Vega in a particular orbit called the Solar Apex. This means that the sun travels roughly 17,280,000 kilometers a day. Along with the Sun, and all planets and satellites within the gravitational system of the Sun also travel the same distance. In addition, all the stars in the universe are in a similar planned motion.

That the entire universe is full of paths and orbits such as this one, is written in the Qur'an as follows:

"By the sky full of paths and orbits."
(The Qur'an, 51:7)




There are about 200 billion galaxies in the universe, consisting of nearly 200 billion stars in each. Most of these stars have planets, and most of those planets have satellites. All of these heavenly bodies move in very precisely computed orbits. For millions of years, each has been "swimming" along in its own orbit in perfect harmony and order with all the others. Moreover, many comets also move along in the orbits determined for them.

The orbits in the universe do not only belong to celestial bodies. The galaxies also travel at enormous speeds in computed, planned orbits. During these movements, none of these celestial bodies cuts across another's path, or collides with another.

Surely at the time the Qur'an was revealed, mankind did not possess today's telescopes or advanced observation technologies to observe millions of kilometres of space, nor the modern knowledge of physics or astronomy. Therefore, at that time, it was not possible to determine scientifically that space is "full of paths and orbits" as stated in the verse. However, this was openly declared to us in the Qur'an that was revealed at that time:-because the Qur'an is the word of God.





Like many other comets in the universe, Halley's comet, seen above, also moves in a planned orbit. It has a specific orbit and it moves in this orbit in a perfect harmony with other celestial bodies.


All celestial bodies including planets, satellites of these planets, stars, and even galaxies have their own orbits that have been determined with very delicate computations. The One Who established this perfect order and maintains it is God, Who created the entire universe.



"He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night."
(The Qur'an, 39:5)

In the Qur'an, the words used for describing the universe are quite remarkable. The Arabic word that is translated as "to wrap" in the above verse is "takwir". In English, it means "to make one thing lap over another, folded up as a garment that is laid away". (For instance, in Arabic dictionaries this word is used for the action of wrapping one thing around another, in the way that a turban is put on.)

The information given in the verse about the day and the night wrapping each other up includes accurate information about the shape of the world. This can be true only if the earth is round. This means that in the Qur'an, which was revealed in the 7th century, the roundness of the world was hinted at.

It should be remembered, however, that the understanding of astronomy of the time perceived the world differently. It was then thought that the world was a flat plane and all scientific calculations and explanations were based on this belief. The verses of the Qur'an, however, include information that we have learned only in the past century. Since the Qur'an is God's word, the most correct words were used in it when it comes to describing the universe.






In the Qur'an, God calls our attention to a very interesting attribute of the sky:

"We made the sky a preserved and protected roof yet still they turn away from Our Signs.."
(The Qur'an, 21:32)

This attribute of the sky has been proved by scientific research carried out in the 20th century.

The atmosphere surrounding the earth serves crucial functions for the continuity of life. While destroying many meteors big and small as they approach the earth, it prevents them from falling to earth and harming living things.

In addition, the atmosphere filters the light rays coming from space that are harmful to living things. Interestingly, the atmosphere lets only harmless and useful rays- visible light, near ultraviolet light, and radio waves pass through. All of this radiation is vital for life. Near ultraviolet rays, which are only partially let in by the atmosphere, are very important for the photosynthesis of plants and for the survival of all living beings. The majority of the intense ultraviolet rays emitted from the sun are filtered out by the ozone layer of the atmosphere and only a limited-and essential-part of the ultraviolet spectrum reaches the Earth.

The protective function of the atmosphere does not end here. The atmosphere also protects the earth from the freezing cold of the space, which is about minus 270° C.


The atmosphere only lets rays required for life reach the Earth. Ultraviolet rays, for example, make it to the world only partially. This is the most appropriate range to allow plants to make photosynthesis and eventually for all living things to survive.


This illustration shows meteors that are about to crash into the earth. The celestial bodies wandering in space could pose a serious threat to the Earth. Yet, God, He Who creates most perfectly, has made the atmosphere a protective roof. Thanks to this special protection, most meteoroids do not harm the Earth, as they fall to pieces in the atmosphere.


Most people looking at the sky do not think about the protective aspect of the atmosphere. They almost never think what kind of a place the world would be like if this structure did not exist. The above photo belongs to a giant crater caused by a meteor that fell in Arizona, in the USA. If the atmosphere did not exist, millions of meteoroids would fall to the Earth and the Earth would become an inhabitable place. Yet, the protective aspect of the atmosphere allows living things to survive in safety. This is certainly God's protection of people, and a miracle proclaimed in the Qur'an.


The energy released in a Sun burst is so powerful that the human mind would hardly comprehend it: A single burst is equivalent to 100 billion atomic bombs similar to the one dropped on Hiroshima. The world is protected from the destructive effects of this energy by the atmosphere and the Van Allen Belts.


As we move from the Earth, which is perfectly fitted for human life, beyond the atmosphere into the space, we come across a freezing cold. The world is protected from the freezing cold of space, which is around -270 degrees, by the help of the atmosphere.


The magnetosphere layer, formed by the magnetic field of the Earth, serves as a shield protecting the earth from celestial bodies, harmful cosmic rays and particles. In the above picture, this magnetosphere layer, which is also named Van Allen Belts, is seen. These belts at thousands of kilometres above the earth protect the living things on the Earth from the fatal energy that would otherwise reach it from space.

All these scientific findings prove that the world is protected in a very particular way. The important thing is that this protection was made known in the Qur'an in the verse "We made the sky a preserved and protected roof" 1,400 years ago.

It is not only the atmosphere that protects the Earth from harmful effects. In addition to the atmosphere, the Van Allen Belt, a layer caused by the magnetic field of the Earth, also serves as a shield against the harmful radiation that threatens our planet. This radiation, which is constantly emitted by the Sun and other stars, is deadly to living things. If the Van Allen belt did not exist, the massive outbursts of energy called solar flares that frequently occur in the Sun would destroy all life on Earth.

Dr. Hugh Ross has this to say on the importance of Van Allen Belts to our lives:

In fact, the Earth has the highest density of any of the planets in our Solar System. This large nickel-iron core is responsible for our large magnetic field. This magnetic field produces the Van-Allen radiation shield, which protects the Earth from radiation bombardment. If this shield were not present, life would not be possible on the Earth. The only other rocky planet to have any magnetic field is Mercury - but its field strength is 100 times less than the Earth's. Even Venus, our sister planet, has no magnetic field. The Van-Allen radiation shield is a design unique to the Earth.



The energy transmitted in just one of these bursts detected in recent years was calculated to be equivalent to 100 billion atomic bombs similar to the one dropped on Hiroshima. Fifty-eight hours after the burst, it was observed that the magnetic needles of compasses displayed unusual movement and 250 kilometers above the earth's atmosphere, the temperature suddenly increased to 2,500° C.

In short, a perfect system is at work high above the Earth. It surrounds our world and protects it against external threats. Scientists only learned about it recently, yet centuries ago, God informed us in the Qur'an of the world's atmosphere functioning as a protective shield.


The verse 11 of Sura Tarik in the Qur'an, refers to the "returning" function of the sky.

"By Heaven with its cyclical systems."
(The Qur'an, 86:11)

This word interpreted as "cyclical" in Qur'an translations also has meanings of "sending back" or "returning".

As known, the atmosphere surrounding the Earth consists of many layers. Each layer serves an important purpose for the benefit of life. Research has revealed that these layers have the function of turning the materials or rays they are exposed to back into space or back down to the Earth. Now let us examine with a few examples of this "recycling" function of the layers encircling the Earth.

The troposphere, 13 to 15 kilometers above the Earth, enables water vapor rising from the surface of the Earth to be condensed and turn back as rain.

The ozone layer, at an altitude of 25 kilometers, reflects harmful radiation and ultraviolet light coming from space and turns both back into space.

The ionosphere, reflects radio waves broadcast from the Earth back down to different parts of the world, just like a passive communications satellite, and thus makes wireless communication, radio, and television broadcasting possible over long distances.

The magnetosphere layer turns the harmful radioactive particles emitted by the Sun and other stars back into space before they reach the Earth.

The fact that this property of the atmosphere's layers, that was onlt demonstrated in the recent past was announced centuries ago in the Qur'an, once again demonstrates that the Qur'an is the word of God.


The presence of water is essential for life on Earth. One of the factors acting in the formation of water is the Troposphere, one of the layers of the atmosphere. The troposphere layer enables water vapour rising from the surface of the Earth to be condensed and turn back down to the Earth as rain.


The atmosphere layer that blocks the rays that might be fatal to life on Earth is the Ozonosphere. The Ozonosphere turns harmful cosmic rays like ultraviolet back to space, hence preventing them from reaching the Earth and harming life.


Each layer of the atmosphere has beneficial attributes for human beings. The Ionosphere layer, one of the upper layers of the atmosphere, for example, reflects radio waves broadcast from a certain centre back down to the Earth, thus enabling broadcasts to be received from long distances.

One fact about the universe revealed in the verses of the Qur'an is that the sky is made up of seven layers.

"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things."
(The Qur'an, 2:29)

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."
(The Qur'an, 41:12)

The word "heavens", which appears in many verses in the Qur'an, is used to refer to the sky above the Earth, as well as the entire universe. Given this meaning of the word, it is seen that the Earth's sky, or the atmosphere, is made up of seven layers.


The Earth has all the attributes that are needed for life. One of them is the atmosphere, which serves as a shield protecting living things. Today, it is an established fact that the atmosphere is made up of different layers lying on top of one another. Just as it is described in the Qur'an, the atmosphere is made up of exactly seven layers. This is certainly one of the miracles of the Qur'an.

Indeed, today it is known that the world's atmosphere consists of different layers that lie on top of each other. Furthermore, it consists, just as is described in the Qur'an, of exactly seven layers. In a scientific source, the subject is described as follows:

Scientists have found that the atmosphere consists of several layers. The layers differ in such physical properties as pressure and the types of gasses. The layer of the atmosphere closest to Earth is called the TROPOSPHERE. It contains about 90% of the total mass of the atmosphere. The layer above the troposphere is called the STRATOSPHERE. The OZONE LAYER is the part of the stratosphere where absorption of ultraviolet rays occurs. The layer above the stratosphere is called the MESOSPHERE. The THERMOSPHERE lies above the mesosphere. The ionized gases form a layer within the thermosphere called the IONOSPHERE. The outermost part of Earth's atmosphere extends from about 480 km out to 960 km. This part is called the EXOSPHERE. (2)

If we count the number of layers cited in this source, we see that the atmosphere consists of exactly seven layers, just as stated in the verse.

1. Troposphere
2. Stratosphere
3. Ozonosphere
4. Mesosphere
5. Thermosphere
6. Ionosphere
7. Exosphere

Another important miracle on this subject is mentioned in the statement "(He) revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate.", in verse 12 of Sura Fussilet. In other words, in the verse, God states that He assigned each heaven its own duty. Truly, as seen in previous chapters, each one of these layers has vital duties for the benefit of human kind and all other living things on the Earth. Each layer has a particular function, ranging from forming rain to preventing harmful rays, from reflecting radio waves, to averting the harmful effects of meteors.

One of these functions, for example, is stated in a scientific source as follows:

Earth's atmosphere has 7 layers. The lowest layer is called troposphere. Rain, snow and wind only take place in the troposphere.(3)

It is a great miracle that these facts, which could not possibly be discovered without the technology of the 20th century, were explicitly stated by the Qur'an 1,400 years ago.


14 centuries ago, when the sky was believed to be one unified body, the Qur'an miraculously stated that it consisted of layers, and what is more, "seven" layers. Modern science, on the other hand, discovered the fact that the atmosphere surrounding the Earth is made up of "seven" basic layers only very recently.

The Qur'an draws attention to a very important geological function of mountains.

"We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them"
(The Qur'an, 21:31)

Mountains have roots deep under the surface of the ground. (Earth, Press and Siever, p. 413)

Schematic section. Mountains, like pegs, have deep roots embedded in the ground. (Anatomy of the Earth, Cailleux, p.220)

Another illustration shows how mountains are peg-like in shape, due to their deep roots. (Earth Science, Tarbuck and Lutgens, p.158)





As we have noticed, it is stated in the verse that mountains have the function of preventing shocks in the Earth.

This fact was not known by anyone at the time the Qur'an was revealed. It was in fact brought to light only recently as a result of the findings of modern geology.

According to these findings, mountains emerge as a result of the movements and collisions of massive plates forming the Earth's crust. When two plates collide, the stronger one slides under the other, the one on the top bends and forms heights and mountains. The layer beneath proceeds under the ground and makes a deep extension downward. That means that mountains have a portion stretching downwards, as large as their visible parts on the Earth.

In a scientific text, the structure of mountains is described as follows:


Where continents are thicker, as in mountain ranges, the crust sinks deeper into the mantle.(4)

In a verse, this role of the mountains is pointed out by a comparison with "pegs":

"Have We not made the earth as a bed and the mountains its pegs?"
(The Qur'an, 78:6-7)

Mountains, in other words, clench the plates in the Earth's crust together by extending above and beneath the Earth's surface at the conjunction points of these plates. In this way, they fix the Earth's crust, and prevent it from drifting over the magma stratum or among its plates. Briefly, we may liken mountains to nails that keep pieces of wood together.

This fixing function of the mountains is described in scientific literature by the term "isostasy". Isostasy means the following:

Isostasy: general equilibrium in the Earth's crust maintained by a yielding flow of rock material beneath the surface under gravitational stress.(5)

This vital role of mountains, that was discovered by modern geology and seismic research, was revealed in the Qur'an centuries ago as an example of the supreme wisdom in God's creation.

"We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them..."
(The Qur'an, 21:31)


With extensions that mountains extend out towards under the ground as well as over the ground, they clench different plates of the earth together like a peg. The Earth's crust consists of plates that are in constant motion. This clenching property of mountains prevents shocks to a great extent, by fixing the earth's crust, which has a very movable structure.






There is much much more, I will try to add it in later.



Mohamed

The Christian Trinity in The Gospel of Philip

The Christian Trinity presents us with a very important Paradox, a paradox that could be explored through the research into and knowledge of our astral bodies and the astral planes.

Here is the paradox:

How can, in the doctrine of the Trinity, there be 3 persons in 1 person? In other words, how can there be:
God the Father+
God the Son+
God the Holy Spirit= One person

This is the result of a very complex philosophical paradox, a paradox created by all the things that were claimed about Jesus. And this is an honest to goodness real paradox! How? Although it runs counter to common sense, it could still be true. But HOW can it be true? Since the Church Fathers NEVER could figure it out and agree across the board what to do with it, the answer for this paradox has yet to be solved. For them, there were no matching words in Latin for the main principles of this problem that had been originally conceived of in other languages. Further, and probably more important, were the claims that this was not something that only applied to Jesus. So, amidst serious controversy (causing some bishops to leave the newly forming church,) the remaining bishops just hammered it out as best as they could, ultimately leaving the paradox unsolved. It has come to be known as The Trinity. This paradox still stands unsolved today--1,700 years later.

This paradox raises many questions, but here are just a few to get us started:

1-HOW COULD the MAN Jesus, AFTER HE DIED, appear to his disciples?

2-WHAT IS the nature of resurrection?

3-HOW can this apply to us?

The Gnostic Gospel of Philip explains it like this:

"What is the resurrection? The image must rise again through the image. The bridegroom and the image must enter through the image into the truth: this is the restoration. It is appropriate that those who do not have it not only acquire the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, but that they have acquired it on their own. If one does not acquire the name for himself, the name "Christian" will also be taken from him."

A bit earlier in the Gospel is says:

"Those who say that the Lord died first and then rose up are in error, for he rose up first and then died. If one does not first attain the resurrection will he not die? As God lives, he would already be dead...Compare the Soul. It is a precious thing and it came to be in a contemptible body. Some are afraid lest they rise naked. Because of this they wish to rise in the flesh, and they do not know that it is those who wear the flesh that are naked."

And further:

"But you saw something of that place and you became those things. You saw the Spirit and you became Spirit. You saw Christ and you became Christ. You saw the Father and you shall become Father. So in this place you see everything and do not see yourself--and what you see you shall become."

There are of course, a lot of things about these verses that need clarification and understanding. Some of which I can address, but some I have yet to totally understand. But, my reading which is based on my own personal experiences, is that this is talking about our astral bodies and those astral regions we find ourselves in and how we must recognize and know our astral selves and our true home before we die--lest when we do die, we will indeed be dead.

There is a tremendous amount that can be discussed here from just this Gospel alone. I encourage anyone who is interested in exporing this topic to read this text and contribute any thoughts or questions they may have. I can help with the texts and contribute from my own experience, but I will definitely need help from all of you. My experiences are my own, and together perhaps we can begin to understand better the full nature of our existence.

The following post was relocated to this thread from another thread by the moderator:

Narrow Path
Silver Member
USA
126 Posts
Posted - 14 September 2003 :  00:46:25                
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quote:Standing but a step from His heavenly throne, Christ gave the commission to His disciples. "All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth," He said. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations." "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16:15. Again and again the words were repeated, that the disciples might grasp their significance.PREACH THE WORD, GOD'S WORD AND NOT MAN'S VERSION OF IT. Upon all the inhabitants of the earth, high and low, rich and poor, was the light of heaven to shine in clear, strong rays. The disciples were to be colaborers with their Redeemer in the work of saving the world.

The commission had been given to the twelve when Christ met with them in the upper chamber; but it was now to be given to a larger number. At the meeting on a mountain in Galilee, all the believers who could be called together were assembled. Of this meeting Christ Himself, before His death, had designated the time and place. The angel at the tomb reminded the disciples of His promise to meet them in Galilee. The promise was repeated to the believers who were gathered at Jerusalem during the Passover week, and through them it reached many lonely ones who were mourning the death of their Lord. With intense interest all looked forward to the interview. They made their way to the place of meeting by circuitous routes, coming in from every direction, to avoid exciting the suspicion of the jealous Jews. With wondering hearts they came, talking earnestly together of the news that had reached them concerning Christ.

At the time appointed, about five hundred believers were collected in little knots on the mountainside, eager to learn all that could be learned from those who had seen Christ since His resurrection. From group to group the disciples passed, telling all they had seen and heard of Jesus, and reasoning from the Scriptures as He had done with them. Thomas recounted the story of his unbelief, and told how his doubts had been swept away. Suddenly Jesus stood among them. No one could tell whence or how He came. Many who were present had never before seen Him; but in His hands and feet they beheld the marks of the crucifixion; His countenance was as the face of God, and when they saw Him, they worshiped Him.
But some doubted. So it will always be. There are those who find it hard to exercise faith, and they place themselves on the doubting side. These lose much because of their unbelief.

This was the only interview that Jesus had with many of the believers after His resurrection. He came and spoke to them saying, "All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth." The disciples had worshiped Him before He spoke, but His words, falling from lips that had been closed in death, thrilled them with peculiar power. He was now the risen Saviour. Many of them had seen Him exercise His power in healing the sick and controlling satanic agencies. They believed that He possessed power to set up His kingdom at Jerusalem, power to quell all opposition, power over the elements of nature. He had stilled the angry waters; He had walked upon the white-crested billows; He had raised the dead to life. Now He declared that "all power" was given to Him. His words carried the minds of His hearers above earthly and temporal things to the heavenly and eternal. They were lifted to the highest conception of His dignity and glory.

Christ's words on the mountainside were the announcement that His sacrifice in behalf of man was full and complete. The conditions of the atonement had been fulfilled; the work for which He came to this world had been accomplished. He was on His way to the throne of God, to be honored by angels, principalities, and powers. He had entered upon His mediatorial work. Clothed with boundless authority, He gave His commission to the disciples: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations," "baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." Matt. 28:19, 20, R. V.

The Jewish people had been made the depositaries of sacred truth; but Pharisaism had made them the most exclusive, the most bigoted, of
all the human race. Everything about the priests and rulers--their dress, customs, ceremonies, traditions--made them unfit to be the light of the world. They looked upon themselves, the Jewish nation, as the world. But Christ commissioned His disciples to proclaim a faith and worship that would have in it nothing of caste or country, a faith that would be adapted to all peoples, all nations, all classes of men.

Before leaving His disciples, Christ plainly stated the nature of His kingdom. He called to their minds what He had previously told them concerning it. He declared that it was not His purpose to establish in this world a temporal, but a spiritual kingdom. He was not to reign as an earthly king on David's throne. Again He opened to them the Scriptures, showing that all He had passed through had been ordained in heaven, in the councils between the Father and Himself. All had been foretold by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. He said, You see that all I have revealed to you concerning My rejection as the Messiah has come to pass. All I have said in regard to the humiliation I should endure and the death I should die, has been verified. On the third day I rose again. Search the Scriptures more diligently, and you will see that in all these things the specifications of prophecy concerning Me have been fulfilled.

It is critical to understand the importance of the Word and how it should be interpreted. Do not allow those that are in ignorance to decieve you into believing the resurrection of Christ was used as a "secret" or "hidden" message.

Stick to the sound doctrine and reject the worldview.

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[this post was moved in its entirety]
Beth

Awesome, thanks Beth! Will keep me from my homework for awhile. Too bad religious doctrine isn't a class

[2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.]

Gnostics generally believe that Christ rose SPIRITUALLY and did not actually have a human side. They do not believe that he actually suffered on the cross but TRANSCENDED his physical body because He is after all, God.

Gnostic text is considered heretical because it does not refer to earlier Bible books and seems to be drawn out of "thin air".

Gnostic text also draws upon

1. truth in reincarnation
2. truth in subjective experience rather than the Word
3. The non Physical death and resurrection of Christ
4. "Becoming" Christ yourself

Number four is really where you can see why the Church rejected the validity of these books so greatly. Early Gnosticism was influenced by PATHIESTIC and MYSTICAL cults from the east as the Church was attempting to take root.

There are many more reasons why the books of the Gnostic were not in the cannon but the nagging question still remains?

Would a Perfect all Loving God allow His Truth to be "hidden" from the masses for the last 1500 years? Or was it "hidden" and "destroyed" by the early Church because it was false information that would have led to the sowing of "weeds" in the Body of Christ rather than of "wheat"?

Read the book of Collosians to get a better grasp on the early attempts of "mystical" false teachers as they tried to downplay the Physical resurrection of Christ.

Paul, Peter, and John are all very CLEAR in the fact that it was a PHYSICAL ressurection. Very, very, clear.

2   Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3   And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Just to get things started I have a few. I haven't seen the other thread, so not sure how this goes.

I had a regular dream, it was a white dream. The dream was located on these temple steps. I got the feel of it being a Roman structure.I've dreamed of large tall columns before.
I had a mystical experience which this Roman looking guy came to my bedside. He had a message that I didn't understand. I can describe this in more detail.

Another vision experience that part of the vision was seeing pine box coffins going to this place by way of this arch (semi-circle because I only saw it in part). Within this path of energy I got the impression that the coffins were going to heaven. The coffins had a twinkling of crosses on some of them in an unexplainable fashion(strange visual effect on my part). The crosses were black.

I have a healing angel (no better name for him) who the last time I saw him in a dream years ago, had a cross (silver) on the front of his shirt.
This was odd because he had always given me the impression of being Hindu.

There may be more, but this is a start I guess. []

[http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/naghamm/nhl.html]

Greetings Beth,

Excellent topic! []

I have been studying the Nag Hammadi myself, and found this excellent website:

http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/naghamm/nhl.html

I have loads of technical and other work on at the moment, but you can be sure I will make regular visits here.

With best regards,

Adrian.

Greetings Beth,

Thank you so much for your excellent opening posts and welcome to the forums![] You are certainly providing everyone with plenty of metaphoric "food for thought".

I need time to read through all of the information you have kindly provided us with so far, but I just wanted to say that the mystical, and symbolic or if you prefer metaphoric content is something I am very interested in. It fascinates me how everything has been interpreted by the religions in such material terms!

My favourite studies for interpretation are St. John's Gospel and Genesis I.

Regarding St. John, I just wanted to note one example for now and that is the well known "wine into water" story, ref. John 2:1

This is my interpretation. I believe this describes the purification of the Soul to yield the wine of pure enobled Spirit. The Astral body, the Soul is represented by the Universal element of Water. Over many incarnations and Spiritual development the Astral body, the Soul is gradually purified by the water of the Soul until it can transcend the cycle of incarnation emerging as the wine of the Spirit, the Mental body represented by the Universal element of Fire. This is also the same as Alchemy, the transmutation of base metal analogous to the unpurified Soul to the Gold of the enobled Spirit. John 2:1 is an alchemical metaphor.

John's Gospel contains profound Spiritual truths when interpreted in the way it was intended, many of which the modern bible still contains because the church simply sees it in material terms. One of the most profound quotes from John is: And on that day, you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you ---John 14:20. This teaches the truth that everyone and everything in the Universe is an integral aspect of both everyone and everything else, and of "God".

I look forward to this discussion progressing!

With best regards,

Adrian.

Hi Beth,

Welcom to the forums!  []  

This topic sounds very interesting and I look forward to it.  Will you please share with us your understanding of how the modern and "original" approaches to Christianity differ in meaningful ways?  Thanks.  []

--Soulfire