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Thanks for the info. Someone borrowed my copy of Otherwhere and then lost it. Couldn't find another copy without paying an arm and a leg for a used copy.

The inconsistency and ignorance about Voodou is the first clue. I'm inclined to doubt the rest of it. My belief about demonic manifestations are that they are caused by a natural or unknowing medium manifesting their own thoughtforms. I very much doubt that demons exist as independent entities. I used to believe in their existance and at once time tried to evoke them but in doing so it exposed their nature and I realized it was a manifestation of my own emotions.

I agree they are related to thoughtforms. When I gave some credence to their presence, I saw them and had to defend myself against them many times whether projecting or not. Once I decided they were all in my head and "not real" I've never come across another demonic entity anywhere at anytime.

I'd like for everyone to listen to this account by Adyashanti (I know, I'm posting a lot of his videos today... ).
He doesn't directly say it, but this is a projection experience he's relaying.  It should also provide some insight into the kind of mindset you should go into this with for projecting. 
Tom Campbell also talks about this level of dedication to your practices.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e12QIvH8kew

That was good! Thanks for sharing!

hmm. that would make you the ever terrifying preachers kid.

LOL shouldn't have given myself away! 

My dad is a United Methodist pastor. Methodists are offshoots from the Anglican communion. United Methodist is an oxymoron. Some are literalists, others are ultra liberal --  mostly it's considered a liberal denomination. My dad has always encouraged finding your own spirituality as opposed to following the standard "party line." We are Welsh immigrants who settled in Oklahoma USA and have been greatly appreciative of Native American culture and spirituality. From them we learned what many of the Christian saints demonstrated centuries ago, God the Spirit is within you and it's a matter of developing that one on one relationship rather than following a bunch of external worship rituals, as helpful as some might be. And what we learn one on one is that love and service are more important than other things. Other spiritual gifts and "miracles" are a part of the fall out of being on purpose with love.

St. Paul is not the exception. Take a look at the saints and their lives and the miracles associated with them. The oral tradition of the church particularly the desert fathers provide interesting study of how the gifts really work. It goes far beyond and much deeper than what you will  see in church because the way to this kind of spiritual depth and experience is largely solitary.

So true. The church as a whole seems to be full of superficial spirituality and knows little or nothing of this stuff. At  least I hear a lot of scoffing from a lot of church folks I work with. Teresa of Avila is one of many saints who was able to go within and find her Source. Her levitations and other astral experiences are only the "fall out" of her unity with God.

No.  Consider St. Paul's trip to the 3rd heaven in Acts - He said "Whether in the body or out of the body, I don't know."  -- Revelation by St. John -- All the prophetic dreams in the bible -- that's all projection.

The verses in the OT where it says -Don't conjure spirits (talk to the dead) may leave you wondering if you are going against the bible if you meet your dead grandmother in an AP or talk to any other spirits you may meet.

Looking into the history of what was going on with these spirit conjurers in the bible, it would seem that what they were doing bore no resemblance to what modern mediums/ AP practitioners do.  The former were trying to contact "the dead" which to them actually meant demons, not good human spirits.  They were doing this to get information for personal gain and were engaging in depraved rituals.  The latter want to contact their loved ones to say - Hey, are you there?  I love you.  How are you?  You OK?   --So one gives you a completely different vibe than the other.

Many modern Christian churches just take these talking to the dead scriptures at face value and don't look into the history.  The sources I looked at for the above were actually from modern Jewish scholars.  I figured they ought to know a thing or two about their own writings/heritage. (O.T.)  These faithful practicing Jewish people had no problem with modern mediumship which would include AP.  I found that interesting.

I'm a Christian (non-fundamentalist) and although I don't believe in the whole bible as you do, I love and respect the teaching of Jesus and many other passages as well.  I AP on a regular basis and have had beautiful connections to God through it that enrich my life so much.  

This is pretty much what I think as well. Most of the biblical prophetic visions appear to be AP. I've always wondered if Paul's "trip" to the third heaven was an AP (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or possibly a near death experience (Acts 14:19-20) when he was stoned, left for dead and had to be revived by his friends.

Just a FYI, I'm not actually trying to be a shaman.  I am however, trying to get a taste of what they do and I respect that.  Main intention was to try to learn more about shamanic journeying.  As an added bonus I got to experience the drumming and a few other things.  My wife is from Japan and I go to the Buddhist temples a lot in Japan, but that doesn't mean I'm trying to become a Buddhist.  I'm just curious and interested is all.  Kind of a learning thing.

I know exactly what you mean. We don't have to be shamans to practice shamanic journeying. I would encourage you to learn all you can about shamanic wisdom and work it into your lifestyle. The live drumming is awesome but the beats on a good CD have been equally effective for me. If you like to read, check out some of the stuff by folks like  Kenneth Meadows, Sandra Ingerman, Michael Harner, and Thomas Cowan. Some even come with drumming CDs.

Sion they're amazing arn't they. 

Absolutely!!!

First off, hello.  Glad to be back at it again.  Love you guys and this forum! 

Okay, now that is off my chest I would like to speak a little about Shamanic Journeying.  I attended a class on Shamanism last night and had my first "journey."  I met my power animal and had a very interesting time.  The teacher played a drum the entire session which almost let you go into a trance like state.  Now, I have had a number of OOBs and APs, and yes this was my first journey.  My question is whether any of you have journeyed and if it is ever as REAL or INTENSE like when you are oob or projecting.  When I was there listening to the drums I was hoping to go into the vibrations and pop out of my body, lol, but that never happened.  Anyways.. if any of you have any comments or anything to add to this post at all, I would REALLY love to hear them!  THanks!

Hello Enigmatik! I think journeying is the same as oob or  projecting, just another way to "get there" or focus or however you want to say it. My family and I are Welsh immigrants who have lived in Oklahoma for many years and have shared a lot of spiritual experiences with Native Americans. What I've learned is that having a shamanic experience is different from being a shaman. I've a met a few who have attended a few workshops and become self-proclaimed shamans.  However, the shamans I've met from the tribes have spent a lifetime preparing to be a spiritual link for their people to the dimensions beyond material existence, and that preparation has been extremely difficult and self-sacrificial. With that being said, anyone can learn shamanic wisdom about life and journeying and put it into practice. Like other forms of "traveling" into different dimensions, it takes a lot of focus, discipline and a belief that you really can do it. I've had both mundane and intense journeys, but have usually learned something each time. I would encourage you to keep working on it if it seems right, especially if you have a good mentor and a deep appreciate for the gifts of nature.

While it's important for people to experience reality personally before forming conclusions... I would just like to say that my entire beef (now) with the Focus models we have is that experience is personal and you simply can't have another person's experience.  This knowledge (which as far as I'm concerned, is FACT) kinda blows a huge hole in any Focus model... or any model that anyone comes up with, including my own.

For myself, the Focus models were a great help in providing me with a "guide"... it's just important to realize that a guide isn't rule, and the guide, in this case, doesn't really exist either.  I've since moved past needing them since they simply don't fit what I have experienced in the non-physical.

The moral of the story here is don't get hung up on labels.  Eventually, you need to progress past using other people's labels... or you will just get yourself stuck.

I think your post sums it up nicely. There's an old Outlaw's song that says, "Take it anyway you want it, be your own super star, let the world know the only way you want it is the way you are...."  I'm grateful for all of the teachers who have helped me come to a better understand of myself, including you and many others on this forum over the years. But I've discovered that eventually you have to find your own way and not get hung up by what others say and do. Life is a personal journey of growth and expansion. I take the "spiritual sponge" approach -- I soak up lots of ideas but eventually wring out those that don't fit with where I am --with the sense of deep peace that all is well. Onwards and inwards......

I wonder how things would change when the realization hits that when you hurt someone else... you're actually only hurting yourself, because you are everything and everything is you. 

It's a strong realization...

It would be a massive change. But so few people in the earth population have a clue about this truth. It's really kinda depressing. How do you help enable realization and change? I try to touch the world consciousness through meditation, but I'm too impatient! 

I'd say that it's reflective of the spiritual nature of the individual(s) using the board.

I wonder what that says about the majority of people who use them...

I'd say it's reflective of what you believe. You are talking to Yourself and that subconscious part of you will send back something consistent with whatever you're looking for.

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I think we are gods in the sense that we are all individual expressions of the One, the Mind, God, Consciousness, or whatever we want to call it. We do create our own reality by what we think and strongly believe is true. That's why I'm into enlightenment now over enlightenment through eons of physical incarnations. All that "God" is is within you now -- wisdom, knowledge, love, prosperity, health, whatever. Believe it and act on it now "as if." Since I've been moving in this direction, my life has changed radically for the better health-wise and financially and wisdom for business. It's only my opinion but I think that "past life" experiences  are a matter of us tapping into the One in whom all human experiences are recorded and tasting a bit of "what's there" through dreams and meditation. Nonetheless, with enlightenment now, I've just junked all of my past beliefs about reincarnation and my limitations. That's when I started finally started making real progress.

Think well! Siòn

These guys never give up. My dad had an NDE during a cardiac episode. He saw the emergency personnel working on him during the time he was "out" and when he "came back" he was able to describe the scene and the people with great accuracy. And no, he had never seen any of them before.

Siòn

We in the Moore/Oklahoma City area appreciate all of the prayer and actual acts of kindness and mercy. People have come from all over the world to help. It has been humbling and a testament to Spirit at work in and trough people who are open to the divine.

Siòn

Hope all is much better now. Praying for a speedy recovery.

Siòn

I like some of what Moen teaches... his ideas are simple and raw, yet seem to work wonders.  I was always thrown off by his seemingly over usage of his "imagination"... but have grown and learned that imagination really is a big factor in projection.  Not that you're making stuff up, but his "priming the pumps" as he calls it is, in essence, the "Mental Rundown" exercise that Frank used to share here. 

I agree about imagination.  That seems to be where it at all starts. The mental images and concepts precede what we experience later.

What's the deal anyway?

Interesting discussion.  I think this Danish terrorist is an extreme example of how we tend to conjure up and fight against against the worst part of ourselves.  Is this fighting demons?  This guy had an extreme hatred for Islamic terrorists  and their tactics in particular, and Islam in general.  But he uses the same hatred tactics of Al Qaeda when he blows up and murders innocents for "the cause."

That's awesome your Dad sounds cool. 

Not bad for an old fart!

PR - you may well be right about the Chinese and the global economy, but this business about forbidding the reincarnation is a real hoot!

Astral projection, shamanic traveling or journeys, lucid dreaming, regression to explore past lives - can all be perceived as different aspects of the same thing. In other words, we live in one dimension (ie what is socially acceptable as 'physical life'), and what happens when you engage in one of these exercises, is simply a shift in vibration with intent (to travel, visit someone, explore, etc.), where you can just let your mind take you wherever it sees fit, or where you can maintain some control of your journey.

This is a subject that deserves more words than the rather vague summary above, but you probably already know that 

shamanic journeying is more akin to phasing in method, because it usually involves a "visualization journey".

that said, it is also usually quite dependent on preconceived notions as you have discovered with the distinction between worlds.  i'm not saying that's a bad thing at all, it's actually a useful guide, the trick is just to find the tradition that provides the proper myth for you to follow.  "shamanic" journeying typically is quite nature focused, whereas something like christo-pagan pathworking might be more focused on something like the arthurian legend or greek myth.  or you might be more inclined toward the more modern hermetic approach and use "traditional pathworking" vis a vie the tarot and the kabbalistic tree of life. 

but in the end, same place.

i've found that the only distinction that is necessary is between this world and the other world.  any destination can be attributed to one or the other (in effect).  in truth, there isn't a here or there, there is just a here and the perspective by which we choose to observe that here.  we call these different perspectives things like "AP/OBE/LD/etc.", and each of these is very different, but it is only a different way of looking at the one reality, not a different reality.

Thanks for the elaborations.  I've always believed that there is only one "reality" expressed in many ways.  I suppose it's all about how we imagine everything.

I have his book "Dreamways of the Iriquois".....I was less than impressed.

That said, his book "Active Dreaming" is quite good.

Hey Sion,

If your looking for a great author who utilizes the shamanic way of journeying, including reentering dreams, but built for a contemporary Westerner, I would recommend Robert Moss and his series of books, especially Conscious Dreaming. 

Thanks. I think my dad has some of his books.  I'll check them out.
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Middle Earth... Middle Earth... you mean... where these guys live...?



Sorry, carry on!

LOL!  Thought they looked familiar!

Thanks all, helpful stuff.......Siòn

I guess the best way to describe it is like most of the dreams are like watching a big movie screen. One time I projected while dreaming and it was like moving into the screen.  I ended up in a beautiful garden that was brilliantly colorful and very real.  Some people started moving toward me and I work up.

I guess the best way to describe it is the most of the dreams have been like watching TV or a big movie screen.