Messages

Your falsehood. You are the one that thinks it is a Falsehood. Don't you see that?

Also, pertaining to your post about AP Forums speaking "anti-Catholic bigotry" as you call it, that should tell you something about the way that many people that do AP feel, simply because they have "seen" or "awoken" to something different. Their views, as mine, have changed because of something we have experienced firsthand, not something we read in a book or were told by another person.

Do you actively project Robert? If you do, where do you go, what do you see? Do you use that time to explore? Have you ever ended up in a "Training Ground" or 'Astral School" scenario. I am not saying this to "one up" you. I am asking because many before you people that have come here to this Forum to challenge our beliefs, haven't even had a successful fully conscious AP themselves, besides maybe walking around the Etheric realms for bit before they find themselves back in their bodies. By this I mean have you ever did meaningful explorations there. Have you been led by a Guide or mentor. Things like that.

You can PM me if you want to answer those questions privately.

I have a feeling that this conversation/thread is going to be locked soon anyways. This isn't a battle. There are no winners or losers here.  If you reread all the posts here, you will see the posters saying basically the thing in general and that's that you won't change our beliefs. Seeing firsthand and experiencing leads to our current mindset.

No Lumaza... universal falsehood.
When someone says 2+2=5 it is a false statement. 2+2=4 always.

On projection; you know that I have openly spoken of the fact that I have consciously projected hundreds of times. I have done this on a fairly regular and reliable basis for the past 5 or 6 years. The fact that you challenge that here leads me to doubt your sincerity even further, now.

I have been to astral training schools many times. Not just astral but realms in dimensions wayyy beyond mere astral. Those who never get beyond the astral plane are wrong about a LOT. Most who get OBE never even manage to reach the true astral realm.

Yes, I see many posters here making the same wrong statements about the 'astral' plane over and over again. I let them slide given that one can't refer to simple historical fact to refute their errors in perception in another dimension.

The fact that you would even present such questions under these circumstances says a lot.

Hmm, those Ancient belief systems you speak of talked about "GODS". Yes, that is plural for a reason.

Robert you remind me of another gentleman who was once a member of this Forum named Wi11iam.  He was rather intelligent on facts, but when it came to letting something, he lacked that ability. Lightbeam, Nameless and I have politely requested that you end this "mission" that you are on to change our minds. That's exactly what the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses try to do when they knock at my door. I tell them the same thing I have told you. I also let them know that I will change my view when I see for myself that I am wrong period. That's the end of the conversation. Thank You. Then I respectfully close my door.

You don't realize it but this entire thread you have indeed been preaching your side.
preach
   (prēch)
v. preached, preach·ing, preach·es

v.tr.
1.  To proclaim or put forth in a sermon: preached the gospel.

2.  To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with: preached tolerance and peaceful coexistence.

3.  To deliver (a sermon).
[....]

(Hmmm... now Robert is trying to get a bead on what constitutes "antagonistic" on this forum)

I did not see where Lightbeam requested that I end any so called "mission" (that does not exist)

I doubt anyone here would pretend that I am arguing in favor of a viewpoint already held by this audience.
I have given no religious or moral instruction
I have made no sermons.

I have merely challenged a few obviously false claims in a succinct manner.

I have made no effort to change anyone's mind. I have merely pointed out falsehood. One thing I have noticed... if you repeat anti-Catholic bigotry you are good to go on most AP forums but if you challenge anti-Catholic bigotry you quickly wear out your welcome... and if you prove that the typical anti-Catholic bigotry is blatant falsehood you are branded a criminal.

I have no idea who "Wi11iam" is but I will search the forum for his posts now that you mention it.

Edit; You say "those Ancient belief systems you speak of talked about "GODS". Yes, that is plural for a reason."
-- yes this is an interesting observation... they used the term Elohim (gods-plural) but then used a conjugation in the same sentence that implied the "Elohim" (plural) were a "singular" entity. Very interesting indeed.

Yes, similar to Campbell's theories I suppose - I have only seen him on a few videos so I don't know MBT more than the basics.

I would say that my view separates from a fundamentalist when it comes to the nature of creationism. A fundamentalist might say that this planet was fabricated 10,000 years ago with all species popping out of thin air, fossils placed in the ground as a test of our faith. Whereas I believe the nature of the universe to be seeded through an event such as a big bang and whatever happens happens - there is no further interference with the system. It may have taken trillions of big bang simulations to get one planet like earth out of the probability soup.

Some fundamentalists also deny evolution, which I find ridiculous, challenge me on men evolving from apes, but evolution is a fundamental mechanic that is nigh unavoidable when life and death is involved in the system. Furthermore, confusing the order of cause and effect - "man is created because his body follows golden proportion", I say that the fundamental laws of the universe guarantee that life evolves in a certain way.

I have personal experience with dogmatists, my brother is a Jehoviah's Witness. I am happy to admit that this was a positive in his life, initially. It got him onto the first rung of the ladder, but now I feel that he is stuck and his fundamentalist beliefs are so limiting that he is incapable of doing something as simple as watching a movie like Lord of the Rings because he believes it is a tool of the devil. Furthermore he shields his children from these experiences.

I believe that it is fine to assess a dogmatic view for its flaws and merits - but I am going to challenge your notion of automatic rejection of dogma.

We must automatically reject dogma, if you do not, you are a fundamentalist and you have shut off all other possibilities. That is what it is to accept dogma. As soon as you start thinking you have the one answer, you have already failed.

I completely disagree on your Dogma position. I know many dogma followers (as differentiated from the dictionary 'dogmatist') who are not even remotely fundamentalist. They adhere to the tenets of a faith but they follow a life discipline that guides them on a Path that leads them out of addiction, chronic anger, pathological lying, etc. and into a productive life of learning and growing.

There are countless numbers of these religious faithful who are making eternal progress in leaps and bounds past the wishy washy mamby pamby ohhh maybe your truth isn't my truth, its all good, all is illusion, new agey types who are actually regressing as they slide back along the slippery slope of their delusional fantasy as they reject blatant, obvious reality directly in front of their noses.

Very often I have seen that, as soon as you start thinking you have the one answer, you have finally got enough traction to overcome what used to seem like an insurmountable obstacle and begin to move forward. I have seen people make huge progress by acting on Giant Falsehood One after giant falsehood two after giant falsehood three ... letting go of their last false belief every five or ten years, and moving on to the next.

But getting back to the original point of disagreement on this thread...
Say I said that "Jehovah's Witness followers practice cannibalism on Christmas day" and you have family connections to that faith and you know it is a false claim... why is it perceived as antagonistic to respond with a simple statement, "that is a false claim"?

?

Then the person who makes that claim replies, "oh, well, that is my belief so you can't deny me that act of faith" ...
?

But often claims such as this are patently false claims and it is easy to prove. For example this thread is about Satan and a claim was made that "The Church" invented Satan to control people through fear"... but "The Church" inherited Satan from an ancient belief system -- "Satan" was already several thousand years old before "The Church" was even born! How could the Church be held responsible for *that*?!

What world... what a world....

RobertForsythe,

What idea you follow or beleive have faith in? , i mean like any religions or something like that? Christianity, Hinduism or ?

I follow no particular religion. I am a Truthist.

I can't speak from experience on either count, just speculation from things I have heard and ideas I have strung together.
[....]
Robert, you don't need to pull any punches with me if you reply!

I don't have much against religion as a concept, I only dislike dogmatism or any limiting view really.

It sounds like you have embraced the Campbell MBT. I admit that something had to create the virtual reality.
I remember being taught that dogma was bad but over time I realized that it had some useful purpose. I saw many dogmatists making more progress than those who rejected it out of hand. I see automatic rejection of dogma as a very limiting view as well.

I'm not saying anyone said that. I'm making a point to explain that you create your reality. Arguing right and wrong feels pointless.

Maybe it feels that way to some.

Arguing right and wrong is an age old tradition practiced by those who wish to know truth. It is far from pointless. It only works though, when both sides are interested in truth. If one or both dig their heels in and obstinately cling to falsehood, there is no learning.

you create what you believe so to say that someone is wrong in their own perception is impossible.

No one said that.

Then the bible should be dismissed all together because everyone is interpreting it according to their own beliefs anyway. We all interpret life the way we want, so religion does not make sense to exist at all, unless the organization itself wants to hold on to the money, power and control. I'll leave this discussion here, as I do not wish to turn this into one endless argument.

That is a giant logical fallacy. Just because the Bible is a translation subject to interpretation does not mean it should be "dismissed". Not at all.

Religion is only a senseless entity to those who refuse to objectively see it for what it is. Religion makes perfectly good sense to honest, objective people that simply take it at face value with no malice aforethought.

People who have a desperate need to hate will fabricate a little doll they call religion and stick pins in it all day long.

If we tell you that we believe Lumaza's observation applies to any church and religion that accepts and preaches from the Bible and any other texts that speak about Satan and the devil, will you let us believe that and not try to convince us other way. What's written in the bible is black and white. I don't think it can be interpreted any differently.  We understand your beliefs and all of us here are entitled to our own views. We express them here, but we cant let a discussion to turn into an argument. Because as I said, no one can convince me otherwise, nor can i convince you to accept my beliefs.

I have challenged no one's beliefs.

I have only asked Lumaza to clarify what Lumaza said.

You say, "What's written in the bible is black and white. I don't think it can be interpreted any differently."
?!


What is written in the Bible is written in Hebrew, translated into Greek, re-translated into Latin, re-re-translated into umpteen vernacular languages... and it is open to all kinds of 'interpretations' and routinely is....
?

Once again Robert, you need to ask yourself "why does this bother you do"? People are entitled to their own opinions and unless they have died and came back with irrefutable proof, they will continue to until their last dying breath.

My statements above were based on what I learned and perceive as truth. Until I see differently, I shall stay with those beliefs. They have nothing to do with "hate" or "love". They are simply my own observations.

You can only win a challenge with someone that is willing to accept the challenge in the first place. You don't need to respond to this. Just think about it for a minute.

Now let's return to the OP's question and stop hi-jacking his thread. I apologize for this fatfooty.   
Thank You!

Once again, Lumaza, just because I like to eat ice cream doesn't mean that ice cream bothers me. Seizing the opportunity to point out "anti-religion bigotry and hate speech" is an activity that I enjoy.

It isn't really a hijacking -- talking about about religion in general on a topic of "Satan" (fer cryin' out loud)

You made an observation about the "Church" and how it created the idea of "Satan" as a fear mechanism to control people.

"My intuition has always told me that Satan is a control mechanism that was created by the Church to control others by "fear"

I asked you to clarify "Church" and you went off all cockeyed from that point on. If you would please... what "church" were you referring to?

 But I think it unnerves "you" to know end when someone doesn't articulate how or why they think the way they do. This is something you need to work on, not them. Ask yourself "why it bothers you so"?

Nameless once again stated what I was thinking "Or perhaps they are just done with discussing something that to their minds is no longer worth the effort." In other words, let's agree to disagree and finish it there, okay.

It doesn't bother me at all. No skin off my nose.

The fact is, I enjoy the opportunity to point out the bigotry and hate speech that people spew against religions every day when they really and truly know nothing at all about the subject upon which they are pretending to be informed. It is like a big, fat slow pitch right down the middle of the strike zone.

People say I come across as "preachy"? Baloney! I come across as direct and honest. And dishonest people who think it is their god given right to talk down a religion they know nothing about really hate it when someone knowledgeable challenges their cherished falsehoods. I can't remember the last time anyone who repeats these lies ever paused and thought for a moment and said, "Gee Robert, really? I did not know that... thanks for letting me know". Why is that? I think it is because people do not want to know the truth. Mostly they want to know who it is okay to hate.

Why is it okay for people to preach hate speech about religion all day long every day - day after day, but when someone challenges them and corrects their error it is "preaching"? Why is that?

I do not go to church and have not been a member of any Christian Church for over 40 years. But I am astounded at the social acceptance and even encouragement of total ignorance and outright lies that gets repeated on a regular basis. It really is mind boggling. People act like they have some god given right to repeat blatant outright lies and total nonsense unchallenged.

What's up with that?!

Hmm. I can live with your belief Robert, as long as you don't preach it to me. Why can't you live with mine? There's the problem with Religion in a nut shell. So much angst caused by who's right and who's wrong. It doesn't bother me in the least what someone else believes, unless of course they are attempting to preach it to me.

While were at it, let's talk about Politics too. That seems to be another "hot button" topic. Please no! 

What religion was I "preaching"? (answer; I wasn't)
I am pretty sure that I can live with your religion, whatever that might be, just going on what you said above.... Plus, you do not even know what my "belief" is... so how do you know you can live with it? Just because I asked you to clarify a comment you made about some "Church" does not mean I can't live with your belief... I just want to better understand whatever it was you were trying to say, since the way you stated it was very ambiguous.

Religion and politics are closely linked and they only seem to be "hot buttons" for those who hold very strong and definite opinions on those topics but can't even begin to articulate how or why they think the way they do. It unnerves them no end to have to explain themselves. (Because if they try, they are forced to come to grips with the fact that they have no idea what they are talking about and are basically completely irrational start to finish).

All I can tell you Robert is that I used to believe in these things.  But not only what I was told, but also what I have seen with my own eyes in the "Otherworlds", is that there is nothing to "fear". Things happen the way they should.

My feelings abut God with a big D are that yes there is a source of all, but the one that Humanity talks about, that created this world would be known more as little g or also known as the "others", with a plural. That is not to disrespect them because creating a whole Universe is quite a feat in itself. One that Mankind has a chance to learn to do one day as long as they don't blow themselves up first.

You can see those believes shared in Shamanism, in Hinduism (Vedas), Buddhism, Ancient Egyptian religion, even the Bible. But what was being witnessed was misinterpreted for what it really was.

You didn't answer the question; What "Church" are you talking about? (and, you used to believe *what* things?)

I don't know what "god" you think you are talking about with respect to *humanity* but I know that well over a BILLION Christians of one faith believe that "God" is the "Creator of Heaven and Earth".

Do you really think that Mankind has a chance to learn to create a whole Universe one day? (I don't).

*FEAR* is far and away the primary motivation that people act on. Lust and greed get dishonorable mention as well. Some Pollyanna types pay lip service to "love" but it is obvious that they are mostly delusional and wallowing in wishful thinking.

My intuition has always told me that Satan is a control mechanism that was created by the Church to control others by "fear". I will stick with that belief until I am "proven" wrong, however long that shall take!

What does your intuition tell you about 'gravity'?
What does you intuition tell you about the ubiquitous and inevitable 'adversary' and 'deceiver' that presents itself constantly?

What "Church" are you talking about? Islam? Catholic/Christian? Hebrew? Buddhist? Hindu? Taoist? Shamanist/tribal?

I think Satan is just a metaphor for an aspect of consciousness. It is very similar, if not identical to the concept of the Jedi and the Sith. They are disciplines, ways of life, a set of decisions.

So why personify Satan? Two reasons, early humans were nigh incapable of entertaining abstract concepts, this mindset has been studied and was still prevalent as little as 50 years ago. Satan as a concrete individual hiding behind the curtain was the only way to get people to comprehend the topic.

ThaomasOfGrey, Where do you think Creation came from?
Where do you think you came from?

Satan is a natural force? Do you mean that we are evil by nature? Explain more please : )

Yes, Satan is a natural force. That doesn't mean *we* are evil by nature. That doesn't logically follow at all. It is more like the Universe of Creation is Negative by nature. As a homework assignment on this you might want to do some reading on your own;

Genesis
The Greek Archetypes
Shiva, Vishnu & Brahm

He is by common sense a masculine figure, a fallen angel from the heavens but I don't believe this crap.
May be you should read the information on this link: http://adf.ly/1eHih3

fatfooty, that link you gave goes to download that looks very fishy to me.

Why don't you just quickly summarize a few of the key points?

To say you don't believe in Satan is like saying you don't believe in gravity. Satan is just an anthropomorphized version of a naturally occurring force that is pervasive throughout creation.

Satan (Hebrew: שָּׂטָן‎‎ satan, meaning "enemy" or "adversary"; Arabic: شيطان‎‎ shaitan, meaning; "astray", "distant", or sometimes "devil") is a figure appearing in the texts of the Abrahamic religions who brings evil and temptation, and is known as the deceiver who leads humanity astray.

Many people find opposition to be scary and being led astray to be evil, thus these characteristics are ascribed to him.

Then this world must be full of brainless idiots, For only a Brainless idiot would ever want to stay in this world...

This is more true for people stuck in a chronic failure rut. Those who are enjoying a few successes now and then see value in staying in the world.

On youtube they have videos on the internet to hypnotize you while you are sleeping to lucid dream.Are they as good as they sound?

You asked this a couple weeks ago. This would be enough time to try them out. If they work or help in some way you have your answer. If they don't work for you, you have your answer.

Thoughts of overcoming this impasse?  Is this just a matter of lack of discipline?

Maybe. It depends.
Many people make the intent, "I am now exiting my body" ... and then they don't. There is a reason for this.

How much control do you have over your waking state?
How many people say to themselves, "Today, I will drink a glass of water instead of soda"...  (and then don't) ?
How many people say to themselves, "Tomorrow, I will wake up early and work out for 20 minutes... (and then don't) ?
How many people say to themselves, "Today, I will do 'X' instead of 'Y' "... ? (and then don't) ?

It doesn't have to be anything earth shattering... just small effort at implementing small changes in waking life will reflect as big changes in the subtle realms.

Is need/necessity relevant to RV? And does this affect clarity?
Could some RV be a form of remembering?
Perhaps interpreting what we see is not always wise.

I think "need" is related in general but individual circumstances also play in. A psychic working with police has little need but has innate talent that can be applied regardless of individual need. Most people people have no 'need' and even in many cases, it is detrimental to the psyche (distracts from the here & now) so the ability is greatly diminished for them.

Yes, some remembering can be involved. RV can be into the past or the present or the future.

I do not know about 'interpreting' but I think 'understanding' is very important. Otherwise, why bother?

But, I can say I actually use Roberts' NEW technique often for pain relief and it works VERY good. I don't subscribe to his repeated focus on "fear". I think that is detrimental to this practice.

Yes, you will initially encounter some kind of fear test. But once you see them and confront them for what they are, you will find yourself in the many wonderful "Otherworlds" that await you. 

I do not understand this repeated harping about the Robert Bruce "Focus on fear".

His first Astral Dynamics edition had 30 chapters about AP and one chapter (29) on "Fear Based Issues and Solutions" which for a lot of people likely contains some good advice. There are frequent discussions here on this topic and there is one active thread on Astral Pulse right now dealing with this very issue. What gives?

I never read Astral Dynamics all the way through but I speed read it and it looked okay to me... just more appropriate for rank beginners. I never read Raduga's book all the way through either but I still recommend it for beginners.

I bought Mastering Astral Projection (by R Bruce/Mercer) and after working with it daily for a couple months I got my first full conscious OBE projection from a waking state. If I were to build my own sort of "practical workshop" instruction book I would do nearly everything very differently than he did but still, I gotta admit, it worked for me.

Door opens after sounding like I quoted John Locke, Voltaire, etc, and than I wake up...and can't remember answer.
Are these self impeding devices? Distracting attention from something else? Has a purpose?

So the door opens when you give the reply. Well done.

Immediately waking up without going through the door might mean you have another step you need to take in this waking world in order to get on with it. A choice needs to be made. Are you feeling like you recently completed a cycle of sorts and now you are casting about looking for the next step or a new direction? Try to relax and pay attention to any coincidences that come about. This isn't necessarily a major life event. Usually it is very subtle.

Obviously you haven't been paying attention. It is an individual whom is living, I know exactly who it is and in which city he lives in. He has numerous times shown himself to me, he very well wants me to know it's him. People can steal secrets by spying on you which this chap does. If you could see, you'd know my soul is very, very, bright. It's what keeps me alive.

If you think the chap helps, I'd be fully OK with you having him go to you instead.

Under certain circumstances the advice already given above would be good but since you have not provided anything close to enough info on this situation I don't think meaningful replies can be made.

I would like to know how this whole episode got started. How did you meet this person? Why would he be interested in your secrets? What sort of 'secrets' are you talking about? Are you a member of any occult group? What books have you been reading?

There are basic "Psychic self defense" methods for these kinds of situations. What have you tried so far?

You can create what ever scene u like to

Positive3. How many times have you projected OBE? Were you able to create any scene you wished?

I have projected hundreds of times and I find that there are many times that I am unable to gain anything close to 100% control over the experience.