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The problem with leaving people to there carma is that we really cannot know what there carma or lesson to learn is. It might just be that they should get help from us. So not to help is not good.
No one knows the carma or life lessons of anybody else.

The idea is far to easy to use as an excuse for not having to get involved- or to be able to exploit certain groups.

Look at the system in india- the wery perverse systm with different layers/ levels of worth that people are born into, and cannot ever get out of. To me this is only a way of the rich to control the poor.

If you look at the pentagram you can see the symbolism of the four elements and the divine on top. This is also the reason why the pentagram upside down is a "evil" symbol- because this means that you put the selfish primitive diseres above the divine. The material before the divine- and that constitutes the black path.

You can also se that the five points of the pentagram represents the human body:head up- arms sideways- two feet down. This is an important symbolism, because it shows that humans are made of the four elements ,but ruled buy the divine.

The christian church has used the pentagram too it seams. There is an old grave chaple in my town (no longer used as this..) that has beautifl coloured windows with pentagrams in them. I got surpeised when I saw this because modern christians seem to conect the pentagram with evil ; but non the less there they where- the pentagrams in the grave chaple.
I will try to find out more about this.

I guess what music affects a person is wery personal.
I know a great deal about a music called Ambient, that really
has as its goal to creat different sets of moods, and dig
into the mind.
Anyone interested should check up www.hypnos.com - the finest
ambient store on the net.

There is alot of great ambient for meditation, that basically just
is slow changing drifting soundscapes. There is alot of darker ambient
that really touches the core of your soul too- but I don´t know if
it really raises any energy...

There is s german artist called Klaus Wiese, he dose alot of real
meditative deep stuf with tibetan singing bowles. This stuff is far away from any giddy New Age music- this is the real thing to fall in trance to!

there are sound clips from Klaus Wiese on www.cdnow.com

O.T.O. – wild ecstatic sexuall orgies and rituals!

I have heard the slander about O.T.O. too. Hm.. what can I say...
I know people who are memebrs of the O.T.O., I have even thought about joining them myselfe. And well- somewhere hig up in the grades where no regular mebers ever get,  ther might be some sexual rituals involved
- But I have never heard of it.
The pople I have talked to who are mebers of the O.T.O. have some pretty hige grades. I know one guy who humorous said that he had gotten into O.T.O. in the first place because of al the talk about sex magic- just to find out that there actually isn´t anything like that  going on in the orden. Note- this was said as a half joke- but the fact about O.T.O. and sexual rituals remain- it is not true that this is a common practise in O.T.O., at least not in the
branch we have here in sweden. The members of O.T.O. are inteligent free thinking people with an intereset for the occult. No more and no less. And yes, a certain interest in the writings of Crowley, and an apreciation for Liber Al and Thelema of course.

I have read Liber AL- the book of the law- with great pleasure. It is interesting and valuable reading- it may have been written by an entity called Aiwass or perhaps even by one called Crowley J
To me it dosn´t really matter. Either it makes sense and helps me with my life and understanding of the univers, or it dosn´t. I don´t feel that I would have more trust in a entity called Aiwass then I would in Crowley. So I look at the text and make my own judegement. I would never trust any book or information because it suposedly had divine origin. I have read the bible to, and personally come to the
conclusion that I choose not to belive in it- because it wasn´t really making any great impression on me. I think all books should be carefully studied and exmined with intuition and logic, before one choosed to belive in what they say.

I am a Thelemit and thus see great truths in the Book Of The Law. Of course this is a book that takes a lot of time to understand, and things ar not always as they seem on the first wiev. If anybody whants to read it I have some advice for you:
read, digest and think, then read again, digest again and think it over wery properly and with a free mind befor you judeg it! An open mind and a willing to see beyond the first impression
will be needed. Remember that the book has MANY dimensions, and shows the different aspects of the univers.

Well, Dion Fortune is a great author. I guess her atempt to be both christian and pagan at the same time might have been a bit tricky at moments. I think that this might have the effect that she will be seen with scepticism by both "real christians" and "real pagans"

There is a great site on the web that has most books and text availabel free on line. They have almost everythig regarding religion, The bible, koran, crowly, buddhism, Etc.etc. This one is a must! Check it out!!

http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm

Extract from Dion Fortunes- Psychic Self Defense:


The exorcist has to achieve three things; he must repair the patient's aura, clear the atmosphere of his environment, and break his contact with the forces that are causing the the trouble. These three things are interdependant and not one of them is first or last. The first thing to do when dealing with an occult attack is to make a temporary clearence of the atmosphere and so gain a breathing-space in which to reform the shattered ranks. this is more readily performed by a
ritual than by unaided willpower. Any act performed with intention becomes a rite. . . . [If] we...take a bath with a view to ritual cleanliness. . . its efficacy will extend beyond the physical plane. Water is a means of purification. It is used in the rite of baptism by the Church and in the preparation of the lace by the occultist about to perform a ceremony. [notes salt that has also been consecrated should be added to the "holy" water] alt is the emblem of the element earth. it is also a crystaline substance,. . . and
holds etheric magnetism better than anything else. Water on the other hand, is the emblem of the psychic sphere. It is an excellent plan, when trying to break an undesirable psychic contact, to emmerse oneself in a bath of water that has been especially consecrated for the purpose; re-dressing in new or at least clean clothing afterwards.
The following prayers may be used for the blessing of the salt and water:
(Pointing the first and second figures at the salt) I exorcise thee creature of salt by the living God (+) by the holy God (+) by the omnipotent God (+) that thou mayst be purified of all evil influences in the Name of Adonai, Who is Lord of Angels and of men.
(Extending the hand over the salt) Creature of earth, adore thy Creator. In the Name of God the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of Jesus Christ his son, our Saviour, I consecrate thee (+) to the
service of God, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen
(Pointing the first and second fingers over the water) I exorcise thee creature of water by the living God (+) by the holy God (+) by the omnipotent God (+) that thou mayst be purified of all evil influences in the Name of Elohim Saboath, Who is Lord of Angels and of men.
(Extending the hand over the water) Creature of water, adore thy Creator. In the Name of God the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of Jesus Christ his son, our Saviour, I consecrate thee (+) to the service of God, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen
(Casting the salt into the water) We pray Thee, O god, Lord of the Heaven and Earth, and all that in them is both visible and inviisble, that thou mayest stretch forth the right hand of the Power upon those creatures of the elements and hallow them in thy Holy Name. Grant that this salt may make for health of body and this water for health of the soul, and that there may be banished from this palce where trhey are used every power of adversity and every illusion and artifice of evil, for the sake of Jesus Christ, our Saviour. Amen The water thus conscecrated may be used as a bath, or for the making the sign of the cross upon the
forehead, or for sprinkling about the place. When using it, the following prayer may be employed: In the Name which is above every other name and in thepower of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, I exorcise all influences and seeds of evil; I lay upon them the spell chains and cast into the outer darkness that they may not troulbe the servants of God

This text is taken from The society of the inner light webb page.


Be Blessed!

Froggman-
I totaly agree with you. There might be many reasons to incarnate on earth. Karma and/or learning might be the most important one. But considering that we might be ETERNAL soul beings- it might just be a way of change from the astral life. Perhaps the rigidity of thr physical world is necessary to be able to learn and evolve.

This brings us back to the good old question of good and bad.
Personally I don´relly belive in good or bad. From the human perspectiv things are subjectivly good or bad. But from a higer point of wiev it probably isn´t. Life might be like a movie or a theater play. Do the acters in the script really consider it to be good or bad roles they play? The characters they play may well consider things to be either good or bad. But once they have left there characters behinde, and are once again astral beings how will they see it then?  Perhaps something that seemd harsh in life provided a valuable lessson- a lesson one had to learn. Is it then possible to say that the lesson was "bad" ?

It might be that the soul inbetween lifes still have some feelings of revenge and anger at others. This might be what causes karma. But once above this state it might turn out that looking back on the lifes on has lived, one will se that all the things that happened where necessary at the time to learn or evolve.

Be blessed

quote:
You have to really want to do this.  It has to be very, very important to you.

Perhaps it's just as well that people who have a lesser interest will lose that interest when they realize that training is tedious.  Those who are left will have the dedication to reach for their full potential.
Harsh, but true?

Well, winged wolf, I guess you got a point, BUT and this is a wery important but- it is hard to do something whitout knowing how to do it.
Actually I am one of those who on a regular basis go to the gym to keep my physical body fit. And I know that in the begining I did do certain things wrong- but there where always kind people who helped me correct my moves, so I learnd how to do it the right way- and man that helped!
You can go into a gym with no knowledge anf full motivation.. and it will probably turn out really bad. I imagine that you had someone who helped and teached you when you learnd the energy exercise system Winged wolf! It´s not always that easy to learn things as abstract as NEW from a text. I actually tried to learn a Qui Giong system from a book- and faild. It´s alot easier with help.



KIfyre
"Boredom: I used to do Qigong for an hour straight everyday. (Stand with your eyes closed and wave your hands around for an hour.) Sometimes I got so bored I started yelling inside my head. "

I used to work with the Falun Gong QiGong system- and sometiems the sessions where 1,5 - 2 hours. Except for stiff legs there where moments of booredom involved

Be blessed!

Thank you for your replies!

Yes, well I realise that that the NEW exercices are not in themselfe the goal, but only the way. My main problem though is this, that when I try doing NEW exercises, I really have no way of knowing if I do them in the right way and actually work my way forward towards the goal I´m after- or if it´s just self sugestion that causes the minor feelings I get. It might be that the NEW system indead is wery good, but that having read Robert Bruces instructions carfully, I still do it wrong and in reality don´t move or raise any energy.

I find it wery hard to sens my body awareness on many bodyparts. I THINK that I have managed to pull energy around in the feet and the thumbs- but how can I be sure?
Pulling energy upp the legs seemd to work, almoust up to the knees, but then it became wery tricy.

People talk about the NEW system as being wery easy to use. This is not really how I have experienced it, It is not that easy to pull energys around. The feeling and of energymovement in the body is wery hard locatet for me..

TIA
"Now, as for meditation - that is really boring! I have been doing it every day, but I think I have lost the plot. What is the point in sitting without thought for 40min (longest I can bare it) All worries, mindless thoughts come back the minute you stop meditating, it's not like it gets rid of stuff... I dunno about the meditation thing..."

When I have been meditating for about fiften minutes I get into a trance state, and I find that quite interesting. Do you go into trance to? The ideal is probably to reach a state of mind where time dosn´t matter any more, where you can sitt through the whole meditation without thinking about time. But I have days too when meditation seems virtually impossible.

But meditation has many good effects- even on the physicall plane.
Your heart rate goes down- wihitch is always good. You get stress relife, and better consentration abilitys. And on the metaphysicall plane it probably dose alot more than that!  

quote:
If spirits need a constant supply of etheric matter from a living source to exist in the real-time realm, and if etheric matter is the glue that hooks us up with our physical bodies... how can they come back?  There's no etheric matter to hook them up in the physical world.

I think that the answer to this question lies within the question so to speak. Think about it- how did we come into our physiacl bodys in the first place? If we some how managed to get in to them this time, surely it would work again:)


Regarding the reincarnation question, I see it as possible that we do live many lifes on this planet. And after this palnet and plane of existens we probably move on to some other plane. But in MHO no one can know for sure- and in a hundrede years most of us probably will know a bitt more at least - du to the most natural causes.

The word Magick is Crowleys inventon- and a wery good invention
indeed, IMHO. It differs REAL MAGICK from stage-tricks.

Crowleys definition of magick:
"Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occure in
conformity with Will" - magick without tears. p.27

I used to lie down on my bed doing a relaxion exercice, where I "imagined" energy going through my body. I began with relaxing my toes, and then whent al the way up through the body relaxing one part after another- feeling it get heavy and warm . This had the same effect- a strong wibrating feeling and warmth. Sometimes that vibrating feeling got so strong that it was on the border to unpleasant, and I broke of the exercise. The feet where the parts of the body that got the strongest reaction, and where easyest to work with.

-Yeah, the guy had humor!

Everytime I mention uncle Al I gett this stragnge reaction from people who probably never have read one page of his books and understod even less. I don´t know much about Crowleys life, and what he did with his physicall body really dosn´t interrest me. The fact remains that he has writen WERY GOOD BOOKS! And in my opinion that is what really is important.

That crowly called himselfe The Beast 666 had wery good reasons, he turnd against the perverted kind of christianity that was prevaliing in England in those days. Even the OUTSPOKEN CHRISTIAN Dion Fortune (founder of the society of the inner light) claimd that the situation in victorian England was bad- that people lived in menatl misery selfimposed by self created "christian" ethics. Ethics that damaged many people.

Many people now days that call themselfes Christians have a wery different wiev upon life then what the christianity demanded some hundred years ago. I think it might be hard for modern people in secularised countrys to understand the way life was in Crowleys days.

Crowley was serving God, just like all true occultist. He said this many times- but he was not serving the man made tyran Jahve.

Great books by Crowley:
Eight lectures on yoga
Magick without tears
Moonchild
Diary of a drug fiend
Liber AL -the book of the law (Do I dare adding this title?)

I recomed all people who think that they know something
about Crowley to actually read some of hes work, instead
of reading slander about him.

Dion Fortune Link - www.innerlight.org.uk

What about good old Aleister Crowley and Dion Fortune? Can books get more interesting and essential than that?

Hi Tom!

I am neither buddhist nor taoist, but still have a strong feeling for the full lotus. I never manage to sitt in full lotus longer then 20 minutes though, and that is a problem. If I sitt with tha legs crossed, but not full lotus, it works up to 30-40 minutes before the
ache becomes unendurable.

"My legs used to start with the pains and my feet began to turn a purplish blue after 20 minutes. The problem is much diminished and getting better with practice."

This is exactlly my problem too! The question is if it is damaging for the legs when they turn purplish and get numb. Of course there has to be a difference if you sitt for an hour or if you sitt for many hours. But sitting up to an hour in ful lotus, would that be damaging?

Pleas tell me more about the "Alexander technique"

Bruce talks about feeling the awarness hands going THROUGH the foot and leg on page 124-125..
So the sensation should be of the hands moving like gost hands through the body? not ALONG the body?  I have actually never feelt
anything sweep THROUGH my body- and thus have a hard time recreating this feeing. Dose anybody have any sugestions about how this might feel?

I have used the five leafed plant on three ocasions, and al three
times I just got wery paranoid and feelt sick. The reason I tried
again after the first unsucsesfull atempt, was that I kind of wanted
to give it a fair chans. And It was told to me that a bad trip might be due to bad quality of the pot. Well, all in al I cannot recomend it. I hade a friend who smoked regularly, and he never was consentrated during his highs. So doing energy work might be pretty hard if you have smoked and feel all happy and flappy...

I have been living in celebacy for qite a while, I don´t
really know if it dose any difference for the energy work
though. Some occultists see sex as a magical act that actually
helps rais the energylevel. But I guess the only way to learn
these things is to try them out.