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You're no one's slave, Sare, even though I know it may not feel that way right now.

Please hang in there...have you been able to try anything? I know how hard it is to do anything when you are under attack.

First, this is Spectral Dragon's post on Psionic Shielding which may help:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9297

Secondly, you are like the third or fourth person to come here describing this problem and you may want to check out this thread:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9426

You might want to talk to Lockmar and Bard as they are having similar problems. You're not alone, definitely.

quote:In describing the incident, she said a huge, dark being looking something like an octopus had descended through the roof, and with enormous strength had pulled her out of her body. The thing had overpowered her mind with suggestions that she was never going to come back, and it seemed completely fearless and powerful.

Oh Geez,...Mick, I hope you're reading this too.

You are not the first person to describe a black octopus type creature. I have seen something similiar on a smaller scale back when I was suffering from the attacks real bad. This thing is a neg and it is being seen more and more by people and sensitives.
The link I have pasted below contains counter measures I often suggest, but they're just counter measures, like the Holy Water. I agree with Bluelite, fear and powerlessness is what this thing feeds off of, and it does a good job of trying to convince you while you're under attack that no one loves you, they've all forgotten about you, you'll never see your family and friends again, I can do whatever I want to you nad no one will ever help you. So one thing I would do along with the countermeasures is telling your daughter and showing her and affriming to her, that she is loved, that you and your family would move earth, moon, and sky if anything tried to hurt her. That love, that connection is what this thing is trying to destroy to get at her. And it's not her fault if she is a little weak right now, especially if this is has been happening since childhood. It took a while to weather her down, it may take some trying to bring her back up. If you can, go out on family outings to make that connection as strong as possible. Enjoy life with her.
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10402

Support her and try the counter measures, especially the bloodstone, black tourmaline and Hematite. Those stones ground energy, and may make it harder to remove her (may make it harder...may not stop it altogether but something is better than nothing...and harder gives you time to reach for Holy Water).

I would also advise Getting Robert Bruce's book, Practical Psychic Self Defense.

He describes similar things to what your daughter is undergoing

Nay,

My attackers are people (human and ET...I consider ET non-terrestrial people). I've had things inserted inside me resmebling the gollum creature from Lord of the Rings only black and slimey doing everything to me from sucking away my energy to sucking on my vagina, try putting up with that while you're at work. Nay, God defines you, you don't define God.

Tayesin, Spectral Dragon, Enderwiggin, and one more person on this forum (in this thread) have had encounters and similar experiences with my perp unless you're about to tell us we're all suffering from the same thing.

quote:Many people have read this thread and I think, come away with differences of opinions. Is that so bad?

You can have freedom of opinion but responsibility goes along with it. You are not free from responsiblity if what you are doing causes some of the things I have described above,...which I have now repeated several times. And quite frankly, people under attack and people like me are not conspiracy theories. What we go through every day is not a theory or an opinion. What we have to sacrifice to stay alive is neither theory nor opinion. It's like asking someone who has a tumor do you mind if we theorize about it being cancer or not, but doing little else. The tumor starts to spread, and the theorizing continues...well yes, I'd say some harm is being done here.

You gotta learn how to listen to people. Several times throughout this thread, people (and myself) have explained the consequences in several different ways, explained how your actions are potentially hurting people under attack, and we're still contradicted and asked, "Why is it so bad." Because you have to respect people's needs, and when you don't respect people who are hanging by a life and death thread after you're repeatedly told to stop, you shouldn't be surprised to be on the receiving end of retaliation...the consequences a person under attack receives because of you actions are immediate, now, and powerful. It's either retaliate or let go of the thread and most people do not want to let go.

You can't change a situation because you don't like the consequences

Sare,

this is the link that contains the thread describing Robert's sacred symbol technique, please give it s try:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9595

Hi Sare,

I am so sorry about your neg problem, and I know how draining and lonely it can feel.

Sare, I'm now going to launch into my usual mantra of things you can do...namely I would recommend getting three books (assuming you ahve the financial capacity to do so: "A Practical Guide to Psychic Self Defense" by Dennings and Phillips, "Practical Psychic Self Defense" by Robert Bruce (who owns this site) and "Psychic Vampires" by Joe H Slate.

There are things you can do in the meantime until you get those books, just so you don't sit on edge until you can get them. And I know I repeat this stuff a lot but I know from experience that people under attack do get depressed and are usually at the end of their rope when they find this site. It's hard to research a site especially when threads change topic in mid stream so damn much.

1) I don't know if you have any religous faith, but I absolutely advocate prayer, chiefly to St Michael the Archangel and St Benedict (I'm Catholic and St. Benedict not only found the monastic order and was twin brother to St Scholastica, he performed exorcisms and drove out evil...there is a medal I wear called the St Benedict'e medal, also called an exorcism medal). If you want to try it, this is a link to a site that has an exorcism prayer for lay people (this is not a full exorcism prayer, this is a lite exorcism prayer intended for lay people to say on a daily basis:
http://www.geocities.com/missionstmichael/PrayerExorcism.html

2) Can you get some Holy Water? I would do several things with the Holy Water. a) put a small amount in a glass of water and drink it slowly, b) throw it around your room preferrably in the shape of some religous symbol, c) water your plants with it and your herbs (see recommendation #4), and save some for the next part of this list.

3) Take a ritual salt bath: I've got to believe you can find bath salt at a store somewhere near you, if not, table salt or sea salt will be fine. Add a little bit of Holy Water to the salt and shake it up (you don't want to add so much water the salt dissolves). Add about a teaspoon of salt to a bath and immerse yourself in it slowly. I was given the following prayer by a member of this forum called alchimiste and it does a good job. Say it while in the bath, preferrably 40 times:

quote:"PURIFICATUM CHRISTUM,
ST MICHEL ARCHANGELUM ARCHANGELUM,
ADJUVA MEUM,
ADJUVA TEUM,
IMMORTALIS CONJURATOR ET PECTORUM VERITUM ADJUTORIUM"

Recite this as many times as needed and also recite this forty times whilst taking salt baths as it is an extreme purification that works wonders. i use it all the time.

alchimiste is right, it does work.

4) Burn oil, incense, or dried herbs (what Native American people call smudging). I add Holy Water to the oil I burn for added effect. If you can do this without burning down your house/apt, please walk through each roon of your living space with the burning whatever and demand that the energy afflicting you leave. I can't explain it, but Carla Rueckert, the woman who channeled the Ra Material, told me once she asked why incense, oil, and dried herbs are so offensive to negs. She couldn't get a completely clear answer, but she was told that negs either do not or cannot exist in the same space/time as the burning substance. Substances I would choose would be sage, lavendar, mint, and rosemary. You dry your own herbs by placing them in an oven set at 32 degrees Celcius (that's 90 degrees Fahrenheit for you Americans).

5) Specific semi precious stones, I have been recommended and would recommend Hematite, Black Tourmaline, Bloodstone, and Citrine. But I also would recommend any quartz (rose, amethyst, clear quartz). Get a lot not a few, (I am so sorry as I do not know your financial situation, given that by the end of the month I have only $5 in my checking account if I am lucky. I am reluctant to just tell you, they're cheap, just get them. I hope you have funds to obtain these). Place them in a clear dish, cover them with salt and Holy Water (regular water will also work if you cannot get Holy Water, I am lucky that I can get my hands on 3 gallons (~11 liters) of Holy Water a week so I use it for a great many things). Place the stone, salt and water mixture in direct sunlight and moonlight for several days, say a prayer over them to protect them from harm (alchimiste's prayer works well). After maybe three days and nights, place the stones around you living space and ask them to protect you from harm. Walk around with a few in your pocket, pray with them if you can (stones need to be programmed, they won't just protect you for the heck of it). I go to bed at night with a few in each of my slippers (energy can be taken chiefly from the head, feet, and hands). It didn't stop the attacks but it did make it a heck of a lot difficult for the entities to take my energy. At one point they were frustrated with me and zoomed up to my face to stare at me and gloat. I glanced at them and asked, "Awww, we having a wittle pwoblem?"

Also, I had posted something from Robert Bruce's book about writing sacred symbols on yourself to make it more difficult for negs to attach to you. I will find the link for you and post it.

Sare, I'm so sorry, but these things may or may not work. It will work in most situations but I don't want to make a promise and then have it unfulfilled. What I can tell you is that there are some gifted people here on this site that can help you further if you are interested. What I am trying to tell you is please don't give up hope. What I have listed above may work, but not for a few days. If it is a weak cheesey neg, it'll problem run at the first sign of trouble and should have no problem. If it is a semi cheesey neg, it will probably fight you for a few days, then leave. If it is a powerful neg, you will need more help, but that help can be found here.

Please don't feel that you are alone or unloved or forgotten, as you are not. Let me find the URL for Robert's sacred symbol technique. Please hang in there and please let us know that you are all right.

quote:yes that does happen, sadly, where a person is told that perhaps the affliction isn't happening. but sometimes the question about whether the person is sure it's a metaphysical ailment needs to be asked because it is good for a potential helper to know whether an ailment is physical or metaphysical in nature. that simple differentiation can mean vastly different types of help for the person afflicted. and sadly, it is possible for a person to misdiagnos a physical affliction as a metaphysical one and get the wrong treatment just as there are many cases out there where people believe they are being physically afflicted by something when in reality it is metaphysical.

It's a little more than that, Kakkarot, but thank you for at least listening.

Kakkarot, this is more than not believing in what a person is going through...kakkarot, people under attack have been given advice and if it didn't work in their case, they were blamed for it not working. I recommend blessed ritual salt bathes, but even I don't have the ego to believe if it doesn't work in a particular person's case it's because they're negative or not trying. People under attack that I have been speaking to privately have been doing things that do not work or help their situations just to be "accepted by the group." Just so they don't feel alone...but in actuality it's the worst kind of loneliness there is...being surrounded by people and utterly alone.  Others were too weak to pretend, they had already compromised too much, so they left, and they really needed help and support...God only knows what happened to them. If a person dies and no one hears the scream did he/she really die? You guys only heard me screaming so you thought I was only talking about myself (it's just past tense rhetoric, I am fine now, really, I'll just keep saying it)?!

Kakkarot, you get the things you have in life because of compromise. You may not feel the effects of the compromise because you live in a "world" where there is cooperation, respect, and compromise between people to lessen the load. The compromise made to get what you want isn't painful or is neglibly so. When a person gets no cooperation or respect, the only person they have to compromise with is themselves (self). You literally have to compromise whole parts of yourself to get what you need to survive. Do you understand what that means? It means you're in a situation where you can't walk away from anything because you have to do everything yourself. That kind of compromise is extremely painful, destructive of self, and frightening...and then they're being attacked on top of it. You don't get better slowly over time because what you're doing is essentially cannabalising yourself.

I didn't start getting seriously better until I got that help, cooperation, and compromise because I didn't have to compromise all of myself anymore to get what I needed. I could use that freer portion for other things, like enjoying life, enjoying people, seeing more of the positive.

Kakkarot, people forced in a position to compromise their self to survive (not even live, survive) can't see the positive because there is nothing positive about being forced to live that way. You walk around making affirmations and see that everything else around you has value except you,...so you continue to say the mantras all the fluffy bunny people want you say, all the while dying slowly and painfully inside...and there is total awareness every waking second of everything inside you which dies...you have to look at to compromise it. Everything a neg wants in a subject they get when people in pain are treated this way.

One year ago this month I was in the middle of the download. On Feb 13, 2003 I was fired from my job because the channeling was so severe I was muttering to myself, would stare out into space for long hours, and could not function or interact with others at all. I was taken into protective custody with my parents and watched as they and the family dog were channeled. I'd hear in my head, "We'll make sure they send you to the hospital, [Dark Knight], we'll make sure you never get out." I had no idea what the hell was happening to me. At one point I walked out to the nearby lake and looked at all the icebergs and thought I could walk out there and end it (and ending meant no life beyond the body or being ripped to shreads by whatever was one my case, anything to end it). I could've walked out there and no one would have found my body till the spring. I would've been ruled a suicide and no one would have known what had actually happened to me.

How many people has this happened to, and how many people really needing help came to this site on their last legs only to be driven away? This argument is petty but the suffering are not. This has to stop.

And hell, if not even Robert Bruce's account is believed, what hope do people under attack have? Sceptics won't believe until it is their skin. We can't cannabalise ourselves like this.


Kakkarot, read ALL of this, please![]

Kakkarot,

I am not a slave, Kakkarot, I fight the slavery every time I open my mouth. And like it or not, there are not many places to go for refuge when under attack. Who's abandoning who?

No, you're right, each situation has to be taken on it's own merits. And yes you're right, people under attack need to depend on help not be dependent on it. But the depend portion hasn't been an option to many people who come here under severe attack.

People under attack have been put on the defensive and given the responsiblity to prove and justify why their feelings need respect and understanding. This is a devastating thing to do to any human being under any kind of attack, physical, spiritual or otherwise. People don't have to give a reason to feel, they are human that is all they need. And feeling anger, fear, or sorrow is not negative, it is part of moving through the healing process. Everytime feelings are challenged and put on the defensive for unreasonable reasons the healing process comes to a dead stop. Then the person under attack is blamed for not getting over it, and it's not their fault. They're trying to take responsiblity by moving through it and identifying everything and their blocked every step of the way.

Kakkarot, I have sympathy for you confusion, and I don't expect you to get it in a second...I DO expect you to work on it. You are not under attack, you'll probably share the latest "I got over this horrible situation" story with us, the majority of your boundaries are intact (unless you are not sharing something), and your sense of self is there...there is simply no excuse. You're perfectly capable of learning how/where you drop the anvil.

Learning how to navigate boundaries is difficult, isn't it? How would you feel if you were trying to learn how to navigate these boundaries, were under attack, felt in fear of your life, and received no understanding or good support? You aren't going to die if you have to learn how to effectively compromise.

Akensai

There has to be compromise on both sides, not one. The people being attacked have become compromise slaves as one person on this site coined it. It isn't right to do it to anyone, but it is devastating to do it to a person who entire sense of self is being compromised by an invading neg.

Akensai, many people under attack have tried talking and they've been rebuked, made fun of, laughed at, hurt, and ignored. The suffering above all need dignity and their rights (boundaries) reinforced not decimated further by the people trying to "help."

People suffering attacks like these are at their weakest, they need justice and to be listened to. Without it, they are pushed aside unseen and invisible.

This planet is going to reach a point where you can't walk away from everything you don't want to deal with. You can deal with it now, while you still have safety, respect, and freedom, or wait until it's all gone and try then.

Akensai, I can see you are trying to understand, but if you don't listen to people, and it causes them suffering, respect is not owed to you. That is how you learn where the boundaries are, that is the warning sign you need to see and pay attention to. Please think about it.

quote:It occurs to me that if you go to see a doctor about a problem, and you don't like the diagnosis, you always have the choice to go and see another doctor. Just because the first doctor didn't give good advice doesn't mean he requires your frequent visits back to his office for the purpose of telling him how wrong he was.

This is Robert Bruce's website...people who are under attack come here for help, and the actions of many of you have not only caused more harm than good, it has put them in the position a neg wants and needs for total subjagation...isolated, unvalidated, and unheard.

You don't have to be a doctor or a nurse, but if you can't even act respectfully in a hospital, find another job.

quote:Why didn't you use the example of, say... driving a spike through someone's head?

Why not? Why not a spike, or a knife, or a sledgehammer or this:

quote:People under attack have a hard time making life work and have to compromise a tremendous amount of themselves just to make it through the basics of life,...have to fight sometimes to get the energy to get up and in the morning. Then on top of all that, they have to endure the abuse of people wanting to force fit their experiences onto theirs. When you tell them their ideas aren't working, you're told no, you're just being irresponsible, or just being negative, why don't you put in any effort...as if making life work as best they can wasn't an effort. Your experiences are the end all, so it should work, and you deliberately put people who are under attack on the defensive to force it to be true. You forcibly challenge them to prove your wrong. The people suffering from psychic/supernatural attack are trying to cope with everyday life survival, they need serious help, not games...investing energy into something that does not work is just more energy depletion. It's called honoring and respecting the self (how that is negative I have no idea). People who are under attack are expected to prove why they should have their needs respected...how in the hell do you prove that, especially when the consequences are flat out rejected as happening in reality.

Well, forcing individuals to defend themselves on why they should have their experiences and needs respected works as intended...shuts up people suffering attacks real well...can't move through something or take responsibility without acknowledging it exists. No focus, energy stops flowing, blocks form. Since you can't defend yourself, you end up playing a game that doesn't work which causes you to lose more energy (and that is what I call being positive for the hell of being positive). That is what I call positive for the hell of being positive. Tends to tinkle you off after a while (That is the point, God gave us the power to become angry as a pain receptor to warn us when our value is being diminished...that isn't a negative thing).

Two things just occured to me today...You are looking at the external and seeing different things instead of looking Internally and seeing the same thing (so sorry if I'm talking over your head again). You're self focused and external.

quote:You are NOT the only one suffering being on this planet! Why should we focus on you?

And since I'm the only one who has and still does yell back, you think I'm only talking about myself in the present. You assume because other people being attacked didn't open their mouths, you didn't do anything wrong, didn't hurt them...Didn't matter...oh the sound of invisible people. No, don't worry, your "help" had a blanket effect on a lot of people being attacked, it shut them up and drove them off. They couldn't cope with being attacked by negs and being attacked by their "help."

Here let me help, since you so obviously need a map to connect the dots...I don't want the spotlight on me. I want the spotlight on you and how your actions affect others. And you, a whole lot of you have been asking for it for a while.


Now I wonder how much of this you actually read?

Thank you for at least looking at it, and quoting it.

You're the first person I've met who has pointed the finger at him/herself instead of the people they are "alledgedly" trying to help. You've earned my respect.

Trying to help is not the same as forcing a type of help that does not work. And no one asks how their actions affect others, actually quite the opposite, they flat out deny it's happening. They tell people how to feel and debate it instead of asking and respecting.

And you can be a good person and still hurt somone terrbily and unintentionally...that's why lesson of "other" is so important.

If you haven't gone through the whole thread, a person from this site had suicidal tendencies because of all this...couldn't fight the negs and look to "move her foot from the falling anvil" at the same time and it took it's toll,...a very heavy toll. And the "good people offering help" neither want to hear it or make an effort to understand, just wanna whine and complain that they have to learn something.

Respect is important, but not more important than a human life. The person's life first, hurt feelings last, sorry. What can you get over more easily, your feelings getting hurt, or an action that caused serious, serious harm to someone?

If it means anything to you, go look at the Robert Bruce quote I made on page 4 of this thread.

NO akensai,

Oh by the way, obviously since you haven't heard, I got the help I needed, thank you....

People suffering attacks aren't listened to, aren't validated, aren't respected, and aren't given what they need to overcome their problems.

They're given "advice" that doesn't coincide with their experiences or help, then they're forced to take it because if they don't...

Did it ever occur to many of you how unpleasant you may be?

quote:Personal advice: move your foot after the first anvil drop...

Uh, no, YOU learn, people under attack are not responsible for themselves and you. You need to become more aware of your surroundings and how your actions affect others, and if you've overcome what you claim, that shouldn't be impossible. Try using some of that positive attitude you claim you have and set your mind to it.

And when help was asked for we got it from Ender, or Sunnyblue, or Tayesin, or Spectral, or Bluelite, or Ardane...and when we told the others their comments were not helpful and why, they didn't stop, listen, or care. People suffering attacks were treated rudely, cricised to the point of forcibly being shut up,...and now you're on the receiving end and you don't like it (you're not even under attack and have alledgedly gotten over so much...what the hell is getting in your way in overcoming your failed shortcomings).


Well we'll try again, not that's gonna work, you guys are way too self focused to get this or be any effective help with your bad negative attitudes:

quote:People under attack have a hard time making life work and have to compromise a tremendous amount of themselves just to make it through the basics of life,...have to fight sometimes to get the energy to get up and in the morning. Then on top of all that, they have to endure the abuse of people wanting to force fit their experiences onto theirs. When you tell them their ideas aren't working, you're told no, you're just being irresponsible, or just being negative, why don't you put in any effort...as if making life work as best they can wasn't an effort. Your experiences are the end all, so it should work, and you deliberately put people who are under attack on the defensive to force it to be true. You forcibly challenge them to prove your wrong. The people suffering from psychic/supernatural attack are trying to cope with everyday life survival, they need serious help, not games...investing energy into something that does not work is just more energy depletion. It's called honoring and respecting the self (how that is negative I have no idea). People who are under attack are expected to prove why they should have their needs respected...how in the hell do you prove that, especially when the consequences are flat out rejected as happening in reality.

Well, forcing individuals to defend themselves on why they should have their experiences and needs respected works as intended...shuts up people suffering attacks real well...can't move through something or take responsibility without acknowledging it exists. No focus, energy stops flowing, blocks form. Since you can't defend yourself, you end up playing a game that doesn't work which causes you to lose more energy (and that is what I call being positive for the hell of being positive). That is what I call positive for the hell of being positive. Tends to tinkle you off after a while (That is the point, God gave us the power to become angry as a pain receptor to warn us when our value is being diminished...that isn't a negative thing).

Ready for round 3....

So if you do something that causes harm to someone it's OK because your intentions were good? You meant well and wanted to help so the harm you did was inconsequential? You can have the best of intentions and still cause considerable harm to someone.

Like dropping an anvil on someone's foot and saying, "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to drop this anvil on your foot, therefore your foot shouldn't hurt and you shouldn't get upset over it because I meant well."

Keep dropping the anvil on the person's foot repeatedly, time after time...the person has to worry about the attacks and you? No room to walk away at all? That's your idea of helping or support? And on top of it, you can't figure what part of the puzzle you're missing so you want the person you're dropping the anvil on to compromise by putting up with it instead of you compromising and learning.

I don't give a damn what you're intentions are. If you are missing information, it's your responsibility to stand up and take claim of the lesson. You don't make it the responsibility of the person you're dropping the anvil on. What effect do you think your actions have over time, what kind of impact do you think you impart?

Nay's mother can commit suicide and blame her, affecting her life for a long time to come, but your actions can't have the same effect on someone else? Even to the point of driving them to suicidal tendencies...you have no responsibility, that's what you're telling me!

You're not a child being blamed by an adult, you are adults blaming temporarily weaker adults.

You don't have to learn how to AP or fight negs to be of help to people. The only thing you have to fight and learn more about is your own ignorance about the needs and rights of others. That is not an unreasonable lesson to learn. It doesn't have to be done in the PSD forum...but it has to be done, you can't run away from this forever, and your fear is not going to drive this argument away.

You're not a little girl anymore, Nay, you're an adult with responsibilities. You can't cower in terror and hold people back because of your fear.

And you were also the one telling people being attacked that you could probably take on our negs with a chicken bone.

I'm wondering how it would've made you feel if I went back in time to the point you just described and held a chicken bone in front of your face telling you, "this will make it all better."

If that puts me in the gutter, where does it put you? Move through and face your fears and your responsibility or get the hell out of the way.

Now that is comedy...

I inserted the comment about suicide deliberately. No it's not me, I was referring to someone else back in post. Here's the quote:

quote:This kind of behavior takes its toll after time...Fuzzy, Sam, during the Christmas Holiday I exchanged emails with a former member of this site who was on the verge of suicide. She couldn't do it anymore, couldn't cope with the attacks and try to engage the forced defensiveness of the love and light loonies. That is the consequence this behavior creates. Hey when you convince people they have to prove they need their experiences respected, and that person can't, the logic becomes "I don't deserve respect." I showed her something, I won't say what. She wrote back saying that I had confirmed something she had been suspecting and it made her feel better. I gave the suggestion, she pulled herself up (she deserves the credit not me, I only validated something she had already thought of).

Thank you for proving two things to me...you don't read my posts, and everything I say is thought of in reference to myself...whether it is the gov't, the greys, the attacks or whatever.

Just to let you know because I know Spectral is tired of repeating himself...I am just fine, thank you.

Want don't you actually go back and read that post I quoted from. Maybe then you'll know what I am talking about when I quote Mother Theresa "how dare you be so comfortable at the expense of others."

"how dare you be so comfortable at the expense of others..."

Mother Theresa

All right Kakkarot, being a Catholic, I'd never turn down the advice of Christ.

Are you all that cut off from each other. You've turned self focus into isolationisn as Mick suggests, perfectly.

Your actions contributing to a suicidal person doesn't matter...at all. As always, thank you Kakkarot for proving to me that people only see the intent and do not care about the consequences of their actions.

Can't see it, can't feel it, it does not exist. Your perceptions are accurate and only yours, so there are no other lessons beyond the self. You "tried" up until the boundary that differentiates self from other.

Find the context? You have to acknowledge "self" and "other" and you can only acknowledge "self." You acknowledge the attack and nothing beyond it. That kind of pride will be costly someday.

[Avoid the Love and Light Approach:]

A direct quote from Robert Bruce's book, Practical Psychic Self Defense:

Avoid the Love and Light Approach:

Contrary to the advice of many modern spiritual teachers, turning the other cheek, refusing to fight back, and sending loving thoughts to an attacking or possessing neg is not productive and borders on the ridiculous. It is an ineffective approach when dealing with  attacking or possessing negs.

A channeled spirit once told me that I come under so many intense psychic attacks because I resist. It said my resistance was an open challenge and this, in itself, attracts and causes psychic attacks. I was told to stop resisting and love my enemy, and that the attacks would stop if I ceased my fiery resistance. I tried this once (I'll try just about anything once) and it almost got me killed. I suffered a lot more damage than I would have, had I countered the attack in my usual way. Submitting to an attack and sending loving thoughts, if anything, empowers attacking Negs.

...Negs thrive on love and light approach and use it to further their ends. They use these gentle spiritual beliefs against people. Negs play on these and often pretend to be misguided lost spirits, projecting seemingly harmless illusory forms to the perceptions of sensitives. But in truth they are just furthering their controls. Negs are masters of lies, trickery, and deception. A troublesome spirit, no matter what it pretends to be, should never be trusted further than one can throw it. Negs should never be given the benefit of the doubt.

pages 291-292 of Practical Psychic Self Defense.

And I don't recall Robert Bruce using Fluffy Bunny approach when he was demonically possessed and almost died out in the Australian Bush (pages 135 -142)

There is no Robert Bruce here...

ooo, forgot,

No, my problem with Mayatnik has nothing to do with whether there is gov't involvement or not...I have a problem with people who see lying as a legitimate method of conveying a lesson

quote:"I dont see any experiences being blocked by others (give me a qoute where you think it happens, if you can point it out, so we can learn from this too). Experiences are put here and people are free to comment on those, as it should be. I have given you response on some of the things you have previously written as i do now, to give you some input that you might find usefull. I do this in the interest of helping, trying to understand and yes learn something too."

All right then, we'll give it a try...problem is, Fuzzy, the blocks that happen here aren't singular quotes they are entire contexts. And that is how I am going to describe them.

People under attack have a hard time making life work and have to compromise a tremendous amount of themselves just to make it through the basics of life,...have to fight sometimes to get the energy to get up and in the morning. Then on top of all that, they have to endure the abuse of people wanting to force fit their experiences onto theirs. When you tell them their ideas aren't working, you're told no, you're just being irresponsible, or just being negative, why don't you put in any effort...as if making life work as best they can wasn't an effort. Your experiences are the end all, so it should work, and you deliberately put people who are under attack on the defensive to force it to be true. You forcibly challenge them to prove your wrong. The people suffering from psychic/supernatural attack are trying to cope with everyday life survival, they need serious help, not games...investing energy into something that does not work is just more energy depletion. It's called honoring and respecting the self (how that is negative I have no idea). People who are under attack are expected to prove why they should have their needs respected...how in the hell do you prove that, especially when the consequences are flat out rejected as happening in reality.    

Well, forcing individuals to defend themselves on why they should have their experiences and needs respected works as intended...shuts up people suffering attacks real well...can't move through something or take responsibility without acknowledging it exists. No focus, energy stops flowing, blocks form. Since you can't defend yourself, you end up playing a game that doesn't work which causes you to lose more energy (and that is what I call being positive for the hell of being positive). That is what I call positive for the hell of being positive. Tends to tinkle you off after a while (That is the point, God gave us the power to become angry as a pain receptor to warn us when our value is being diminished...that isn't a negative thing).

When we do protest we get, "Why are you getting upset, it's just an opinion, just a theory." If it is just an opinion, just a theory, why are do you need to drive home the idea that individuals under attack aren't positive enough, are lazy, and irresponsible. You don't accept the idea that you can be overwhelmed, why? What's the motivation? You're more than willing to put forward the intent of giving the idea, but you don't want any of the consequences that go along with it (noticed that's a theme in a lot of these threads, lot's of mention of the initial intent, no follow through). You don't even acknowledge the consequences exist...you take all the benefits and none of the responsibility. Your ego does all the work and you take all the credit.

This kind of behavior takes its toll after time...Fuzzy, Sam, during the Christmas Holiday I exchanged emails with a former member of this site who was on the verge of suicide. She couldn't do it anymore, couldn't cope with the attacks and try to engage the forced defensiveness of the love and light loonies. That is the consequence this behavior creates. Hey when you convince people they have to prove they need their experiences respected, and that person can't, the logic becomes "I don't deserve respect." I showed her something, I won't say what. She wrote back saying that I had confirmed something she had been suspecting and it made her feel better. I gave the suggestion, she pulled herself up (she deserves the credit not me, I only validated something she had already thought of).

I keep hearing the "We got over abuse" line over and over. Yes, in answer to James' question, that was a positive thing, in it's OWN place and period. What is wrong is using it as the insertion point for every other experience their after. Like saying, "I gave to the poor so now I can rob a bank and use my previous experience as a cover and claim credit." You cannot use a past experience as a substitute for dealing with the present. The positive of overcoming abuse is no more a substitute than alcohol, drugs, food, or shopping. You deal with a situation in the present on it's own individual merits and yours. You not only drag it into the present you use it as a club to beat people to death with. Your "positive experience" is not more valuable than the person you are alledgedly trying to help, or the things you have to destroy inside that person to make it so.

And don't give me this crap about helping or having compassion for people...there is a big difference between the abusive situations you were in and the situation a person under psychic/supernatural attack is in. When you were being abused, it was your hide on the line if you didn't overcome it. You had to do everything required of you to get over it. But when people being attacked ask you for the same help and the same requirements are demanded, you give as much as you want to, and whine when more is asked of you. Who's hide are you thinking about? And do you really need a damn shrink to explain to you that people don't have to defend themselves to have their needs respected? Is that what it's come down to, we need shrinks to explain to us how to treat people? That is beyond pathetic.

What right do I have to criticize...because human value was created by God and given to all of us. It doesn't belong to any one person, and anyone, ANYONE has the right to criticize, (and I will especially do it when I read emails from the one girl who was near suicide, and for the most insensitive of reasons). A single person doesn't need to be special alone, unto themselves, to do it,...God creating it made it special in all of us. You can't declare a special title requirement or think you need one without denying the Holy Creation in yourself...and that is the greatest sin of them all.

Oh course I gotta wonder about people who would think being attacked makes them special, especially when they tell me they were abused and tortured. I wonder how special you were to be singled out by your abuser for torture if that is the case. What a lovely fantasy that is.

One more thing...I am getting ticked at the claims of credit by certain individuals who claim "they were helping me so much." The only people who can claim credit for helping me are Tayesin, Spectral Dragon, Enderwiggin, and Sunnyblue. Spectral in particular pulled quite a few entities out of me at his personal expense and expended energy to keep my energy from being ganged up on so I could grow, and I did. I hear a lot of credit being assumed for things I did and overcame myself...and I've got an MSN message dating 18Dec2003 for proof on quite a few things. Nah, won't post it yet. That's be like turning a comedy into a tragedy.

And if you're wondering why YOU aren't falling under the boundary of respect...your boundaries are intact and you are maintaining other boundaries by forcing people weaker than you to defend their need for respect (which they can't). Causing harm to others does not earn you respect, and it damn well isn't owed to you. Irresponsible moral cowards the whole lot of you.

quote:Even when she projects her power over herself onto me or anyone else, that is still her decision.

(oh but I gotta love how much power I alledgedly have over others...you harp and sing about how you have gotten over your abuses and challenges, but I have the power to cancel all that out?)

I'll say it again, I may not be perfect, but I am doing fantastic. So, Fuzzy, I'm gonna ask again, because Lords knows I can't assume anything from people. Being that I'm fine, who do you think I was talking about in this post? Who do you think is bleeding to death?

I am not making this a habit! [}:)]

quote:I dont see any experiences being blocked by others (give me a qoute where you think it happens, if you can point it out, so we can learn from this too).

quote:I take it that you refer yourself as "bleeding to death", and if that is the case, im so sorry to hear that.

Who do you think I was referring to when I said that, Fuzzy?

Do I need to explain this in detail, are you that far behind? 3Ders have mastered this lesson to the point of overkill.

Nah, don't worry, this is definitely the last one...

And since channelings are going to take place in this forum maybe it would be a good idea for Spectral Dragon to start channeling Kereen every once and a while here, just get another "guide's" opinion beside the ones hand picked by Mayatnik. I'm assuming the almighty guides would be open to another point of view besides theirs from another "service to other", servant of the Creator guide? That's not a problem is it?

quote:You post a personal conversation afterwards that has to do with some of your personal issues. I dont see the relevance in what you present here on a thread as topiced : "What's wrong with Psychic Self Defence?". I understand that you want to write about this, but maybe another thread would be more suited for what you present.

Nooooooooooo way! This thread is perfect, thank you!

quote:I take it that you refer yourself as "bleeding to death", and if that is the case, im so sorry to hear that.

No, I wasn't referring to myself (and I haven't felt like I was bleeding to death for a long while now).

quote:"I applaud Ender Wiggin for showing the extremes that are spoken here, whether by humans or 'Guides'. Very obviously the middle perspective is what is needed here.....isn't it highly possible that both sides of this discussion are actually correct, but only so far as the concepts being adhered to will allow ?"

Tayesin is right. What I see happening here are generalized, all inclusive boundaries. All the sudden PSD becomes polarized to black and white, each situation logged into either one of two categories with no respect paid to individuality (people are not black and white polarized). Hey polarize something to that grand an extent, you stop questioning, stop feeling things out,...becomes mindless dogma. Each situation is different, each person's situation is different, and each person deserves more respect that to be mindlessly tossed into a black or white category.

Why all the focus on negativity? I think that depends on your definition of negative. Why no displays of positive? I guess that depends on your definition of positive too.

So now I'm quoting my old sensei again, "There will always be someone better than you, stronger than you, smarter than you, faster than you, and even if you think you are the best, everyone has a bad day." There are a lot of people that have come to this particular forum in the past to find help and understanding, if I can quote Tayesin again:

quote:"Let's take the concept of using a protective shield. We would not allow a baby to crawl near a road without an adult being there to insure it's safety while it learns to walk and digest the information about what is safe behaviour and what is not. SO too with Potection. It has a place in a persons early practices while they become acquainted with the ability to Journey at will and then to work with their own Guides until they become Self-empowered. At which time they will know how to deal with what comes in the most effective manner."

Whether many of you like to hear this or not, we are linear entities, our focus and energy can only be divvied up so much. That's why things like compromise, communication, and community are important. Many of us have been overwhelmed by our experiences and came here looking for all three c's so we could cope. It was never meant to be forever, just until, as Tayesin says, we could stand on our own. Where is the positive!? We reached out to each other, consoled each other, learned from each, and it made the fear of what we were all experiencing more workable. That is the positive! It's called coping skills. You don't avoid fear and you sure as heck don't deny a person's right to feel fear, you move through it...and you can't move through it without acknowledging it, feeling it, and experiencing it. Fear only destroys you if you hold onto it,...and that happens when you don't acknowledge it or stop yourself or others from feeling or experiencing it. It creates a blockage of energy flow, and when that blockage occurs you experience anger. Blocked too long...it turns to hate. This is why it is important to allow people to feel and to validate feelings, their right to feel joy, happiness, pain, suffering, anger, fear. That's what keeps the energy flowing.

Why acknowledge it, why not "be positive" at any cost? Because there are no substitutions for emotions. Same way you can't replace any emotion with alcohol or drugs or food or shopping, you can't avoid fear by "be positive" at any cost attitude. It's a block...looks, walks, quacks, is a duck.

Oh but then comes the problem...like I said, you can't reach out to help others without acknowledging fear is there...or that we can be overwhelmed by something. And a good chunk of you don't wanna hear it. Suffering or any insinuation of being overpowered should stay in a closet some place and any acknowledgement of fear's existence is seen by you as a negative attitude. And those of you out there responsible for this mentality neither recognize nor take ownership for the blockage in energy you create. Energy flows where the focus goes, and when a block forms, focus is gonna go directly to that blockage...and on the a**hole to blame for trying to keep it in place. And that focus won't leave until the blockage is removed, in fact if anything, it will intensify. And when you try to shift the blame off of yourselves by telling the angry person how negative and lacking in personal responsibility they are...

If people reached out to one another, the way many of us who were suffering attacks tried to, showed compassion to one another, we'd all be safe even when overwhelmed. Suffering is not an opinion or theory, it is a situation with real life consequences that impacts every aspect of life...some of you refuse to even acknowledge that.

Do you really believe you have the right to block others to keep yourselves safe from moving through and confronting fear? Who really has the negative attitude here? The ones on this forum who keep claiming to have positive attitudes put all their focus and energy into ignoring the compassion and understanding that those suffering from attacks tried to give each other, but you put a lot of energy into trying to deny that a person can be overwhelmed to the point of breaking, bleeding, or dying...lord knows keeping your own hides safe took priority above all. Hey but there's no negativity or fear on your part when you do that now, is there?  

Hey, you're right, energy flows where the focus goes.