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151  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Baptism on: March 11, 2006, 04:20:41
Leyla,

Was that in Bangladesh??  The reason I ask is that I live in the US, home of the Southern Baptist Church; a fundmentalist Christian sect that greatly frowns upon everything that you have described!!  

The Southern Baptist's here are very strict in their belief that every word in the Bible is true--exactly as it is written--and there are little to no 'bells and whistles' to their worship or beliefs.  

A lot of these Baptists are quite stoic about their religion, and can also be very arrogant about being the 'only ones' that really 'get it'.   This stoicism and arrogance tends to strip away a lot of the potential for exhibiting the passion, or zeal that Kitsune notes the absence of. There are, however, a few fringe churches that do get a bit exotic, most notably a bit of 'snake handling' and such.  

Believe it or not, I was actually raised a Southern Baptist, but needless to say, I have never been able to 'connect with them' even when I was a child.

Now there is also the National Baptist Church who share most of the doctrinal tenets of the Southern Baptists, but they are much more emotive in their worship practices.  I am thinking it is due to the fact that the National Baptists are mostly African-American, and the Southern Baptists primarily Caucasian, that the National Baptists are much more passionate about their beliefs, and usually not stoic at all.

I am wondering if you were perhaps exposed to 'Missionary Baptists'??  If so, then they pretty much preach whatever they want because they have no one to answer to for it and are, therefore, not really representative of the majority of Baptists here in the US.

Just curious...

~Beth
152  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Islamic Knowledge versus Western ideas on: March 10, 2006, 03:13:19
That's very true Leyla...the political and social climate was at such a hopelessly low point, that the very reason behind Mohammed's writing was in response to the fact that Christianity was not being an effective religious moral influence for the people and the government (what there was of one) was so totally corrupt that any kind of 'civilized society' was almost extinct.

While Mohammed and his family get the credit, post hoc, for the success of Islam, it was in truth the wealth of certain individuals that got it off the ground and assured its success.

Likewise, Christians give the apostles all the credit for the success of Christianity---after the fact---but the truth is, there were $$$big Roman bucks$$$ behind its ultimate success.

It takes a lot money for a religion to survive and grow--and you can be sure that plenty of money found itself provided to Islam in the earliest centuries of the religion...which was just a repeat of Constantine and Christianity. Islam had a new and updated message in the Koran, it found financial sponsorship to back it, and viola'...another theocracy was born...

Finally, where there are $$$big bucks$$$ to be found behind one reigning entity, then 'history can be written' the way the holder of the pocketbook wants it to be written...and this is surely the case if Muslims think that 7th century Medina was anything close to being "an ideal society."

~Beth
153  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Suicide bombing on: February 27, 2006, 22:45:47
Side Note:
Quote from: ubiquitous
... if someone is searching it leaves them more open and vulnerable to suggestion 21 century underground interpretation of islam gives them a feeling of importance/belonging a crusade if you like, its just sad...
 
If I may add...even if someone is just looking for a 'fight' they will grab onto most any supportable cause through which to do so.  These bombers may certainly be seekers or even devout believers...but they may not be either one.  Unfortunately, we cannot ask them...

~b
154  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Suicide bombing on: February 27, 2006, 12:29:00
Quote from: ubiquitous
The psychology(sickology) of the suicide bomber the mentor,its origins/history and the power of persuasion.It's a relatively new phenomena ... it is a trend amongst young Muslims people i have met do respect the bomber, work amongst the evil infidels in they day then prey for the death of the west at night, this ain't no media lingo jingo!!!!!!!!!!

Mob violence, Ubi, is hardly a new phenomena.  "Bombs in backpacks" is certainly a new method, but gang warfare with drive-by shootings, lynch mobs that would hang, burn, pillage and rape, and collective hatred that either comes out in favor of such actions, or quietly stands by and allows it to continue, are phenomena as old as 'warfare' and 'hatred' itself.  

Your use of the phrase 'power of persuasion' is behind all of the examples that I used to show that this is not a new phenomenon at all.  

The most pressing question here is: what can be done about it?  Obviously, that answer is still eluding us all....

~Beth
155  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Suicide bombing on: February 26, 2006, 18:44:44
Ubi...

Whenever I am faced with religious phenomena, which these bombings surely are, it is in my nature to immediately notice the patterns inherent in such situations and compare those patterns to similar situations in a search for some kind of meaning--some kind of explanation--especially for those things that are so terrible as these.  

As I see the inherent patterns in this thread's topic, there is little to no difference in any man's violence in the name of any god.  Whether it be Allah, Yahweh or Jesus, Islam or Christianity, both of these religions have---for many centuries---sought to wield their power in the name of their god in order to conquer some perceived evil.  

And, I shouldn't have to point out to any reasonably educated person that, countless unknown numbers of people have suffered and died throughout the centuries, oftentimes very brutally, either in the conquering or in being conquered.

As Lord Acton once wrote:  'Power Corrupts' and 'Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely'. How much more 'absolute' can it be that in the name of a God that humans can feel justified in bringing such vicious harm to other humans, hmm?Huh

While Christian ministers may not explicitly tell those who commit violence in the name of their religion to 'go out and do so', some do consistently preach of the 'evil' of certain things; 'ideas of evil' that are then quite readily planted into people's heads who in turn, in the 'name of their god', act on their own volition to commit such atrocious acts.

"Religious Martyr's" were made popular with the advent and subsequent long history of Christianity. It should not be a suprise that it is the same in Islam as well.  

To the best of my knowledge, these bombers are in fact acting of their own volition, albeit that they have been thoroughly brainwashed to do so.  Whether the promise is of twelve virgins in heaven, or more familiarly, 'eternal salvation with an honored seat at the right-hand of God', the religious assurance that 'God' is on the side of such violence is 'Absolute Power' 'Corrupted Absolutely.'

~Beth

p.s. This abuse of power comes in a wide range of degrees: from the seemingly harmless quiet prejudice to the much more vocal and demonstrative acts that we see today.  I should also point out that there are many religious believers that have no designs toward corruption or violence, regardless of the motivation, but IMHO, they should be a lot more vocal against such atrocities made in the name of their religion.
156  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Suicide bombing on: February 26, 2006, 04:16:03
Quote from: James S
Doing something horrendous in the name of God or Allah relieves a person of the responsibility of thinking that what they are doing is way beyond human or more appropriately humanitarian reason
 
Reading your response James, I was reminded of the sporatic bombing of abortion clinics here in the US during the 70's, 80's and 90's, where the 'Christian Bomber' didn't necessarily blow himself up, but would throw a bomb through the window or open door of a clinic, killing staff and patients alike.....In the 'Name of God' I should add.

Whether a 'High Tech Backpack Bomb' or a 'KKK Lynch Mob' or even a Medieval 'witch hunt', people who profess to know 'God's Will' have gone to great extremes through the centuries to 'eliminate the evil one' as they have seen fit.  While the current run of cases are certainly Islamic Fundamentalists, Christian Fundamentalists have been doing the same kind of thing long before the label 'fundamentalist' was coined to separate the 'good ones' from the...well...'not so good ones'.  

~Beth
157  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / The pictures of Muhammd on: February 24, 2006, 01:14:48
Yeah, well....since 2003, "French Fries" have been returned to their original status, and Americans are once again drinking the grape of the French vines, so....while the pen may well be mightier than the sword, I will add that the 'lust for food' is much mightier than even the pen....

I predict that this too shall pass...

Bon appetit !!.... grin
158  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Duality... on: February 24, 2006, 01:00:19
Werebull,

I can certainly relate to how confusing all of this is, especially when it is so obviously a fundamental part of all religions.  

Might I suggest that you approach the problem from a slightly different direction?  

Philosophically speaking, the very existence of humanity within the physical world is dictated by the duality that we all perceive in our day to day mundane reality.  It -- duality -- is what we 'see' when we look at other people and things, i.e., you/me, our/their, this/that, here/there and yes, good/evil, but also hot/cold, tall/short, etc.  

Since all religions are created by humans, then it is quite natural for 'religion' to reflect such an essential part of our existence.   It is really a complex challenge to try to wrap our heads around any other way of looking at things, so, through these same religions, 'heaven' or the 'divine/astral realm' -- and those who are thought to inhabit that realm -- have also been 'perceived' in that same 'duality' as well.  Again, that is surely to be expected.

Who is right?  Well...I cannot say ... wink ... not for anyone except myself, that is!!!!  But I will say that to be on the road to discovering what/who is right from what/who is wrong is one of the most important parts of this journey in the physical world.  

In my life, I can say that there is really only one thing that you can do for this situation: that is, ask yourself, "Does this feel right?"  If the answer is "No", then discard it as an option for you, but -- also recognize that it may still be an option that other people will choose, so don't disregard it as being among the choices that people can and do make.  Leave the 'should's' to your own personal journey.

Each journey is an individual journey and we must all find our own truth along the way, so in asking yourself about a particular thing, "Does this feel right?" and the answer is 'well, yes it does'....then go with it.  For now.  Because as we all age in this physical world (which is just another example of the duality we perceive, e.g., young/old, twenty-one/not twenty, etc.,) our thoughts and perceptions will change, if we allow for that change.  So be prepared to fully experience that "Yes" -- in the now -- but also know that in a few years that very same "Yes" may well become "No, not any longer."  And that is perfectly okay, it is perfectly 'human' to do so, for 'Yes/No' is also another example of that same duality through which we all perceive the world in which we live.

I hope this helps?Huh

~Beth
159  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / kind of an odd question but here it is on: February 23, 2006, 03:44:17
hmmm....interesting post....Assuming this is a serious inquiry, I must admit that I am not equipped to answer this question sufficiently from personal experience, but I will say that I always heard that visualizing 'three dead nuns' can have the total opposite effect....so....I suppose if a man is an accomplished visualizer, then technically speaking, it should be possible.  

~Beth

p.s.
As far as Sting's claims are concerned...IMHO it's quality that counts....not quantity... :whistle:
160  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / My God Theory on: February 23, 2006, 02:56:09
It is very indicative of people's religious beliefs that if someone doesn't adhere to a particular religion, then they are considered to be 'atheists'.  

While Muslims, Christians and Jews banter back and forth, calling each other 'heathens' and/or 'evil' etc., I don't recall that any of them refer to the other as 'atheists' per se: 'godless' maybe, but 'atheist' no.  It is much like the disagreement between all the Christian denominations: they are all divided and fragmented within the group called "Christian" but can quite easily ban together 'against' Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc., if needs be.

Personally, I think this is one of the biggest problems with organized religion:  an organization, by nature, puts 'God'/'Deity' in a particular concretized system that also, by nature, separates said deity from other 'systems'.  And that is exactly what 'beliefs' are: systems.

Interestingly enough, I spent some time last fall in discussion with some atheists and there is a very 'broad range' of belief within that 'category' as well; some consider themselves atheists simply because they are anti-christian (and therefore think that 'god' belongs solely to Christianity) and then there are others who claim strict scientific allegiance and until 'god' shows 'himself/herself' then there is 'no god'.  And then there are others who are really more agnostic, in that, they admit they know nothing about 'god' but would certainly entertain convincing thoughts about such an idea, but so far, no religion has offered acceptable proof.

So, variations are everywhere....and IMHO....so it is with 'god' as well!

~Beth
161  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / I saw Jesus on: February 23, 2006, 02:29:01
If you look outside the bible, in non-canonical early Christian writings you will find at least one very interesting book on this very topic.  Apparently, 'Jesus' took many different forms to those who say they saw him.  Here is a link for the Acts of John (go to section 87): http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/actsjohn.html

Here is an excerpt:
Quote
For when he had chosen Peter and Andrew, which were brethren, he cometh unto me and James my brother, saying: I have need of you, come unto me. And my brother hearing that, said: John, what would this child have that is upon the sea-shore and called us? And I said: What child? And he said to me again: That which beckoneth to us. And I answered: Because of our long watch we have kept at sea, thou seest not aright, my brother James; but seest thou not the man that standeth there, comely and fair and of a cheerful countenance? But he said to me: Him I see not, brother; but let us go forth and we shall see what he would have. . .

89 And so when we had brought the ship to land, we saw him also helping along with us to settle the ship: and when we departed from that place, being minded to follow him, again he was seen of me as having rather bald, but the beard thick and flowing, but of James as a youth whose beard was newly come. We were therefore perplexed, both of us, as to what that which we had seen should mean. And after that, as we followed him, both of us were by little and little perplexed as we considered the matter.

Yet unto me there then appeared this yet more wonderful thing: for I would try to see him privily, and I never at any time saw his eyes closing (winking), but only open. And oft-times he would appear to me as a small man and uncomely, and then a giant as one reaching unto heaven. Also there was in him another marvel: when I sat at meat he would take me upon his own breast; and sometimes his breast was felt of me to be smooth and tender, and sometimes hard like unto stones, so that I was perplexed in myself and said: Wherefore is this so unto me? And as I considered this, he . .

90 And at another time he taketh with him me and James and Peter unto the mountain where he was wont to pray, and we saw in him a light such as it is not possible for a man that useth corruptible (mortal) speech to describe what it was like.
 

Just some 2nd century points of view to consider....

~Beth
162  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / contradictions in religions on: February 15, 2006, 13:41:50
Dear Ryu,

There is a good general place you can go that you can search almost any topic pertaining to the ancient doings of Christianity:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/

You won't find everything that you may be looking for in there, but you can search by most any topic, e.g., Councils, or specifically Nicea, Church Fathers, Mithraism, Easter, or any person such as Constantine, Clement, Jerome, Augustine, Origin, etc.  

It is a very valuable resource for these topics...and be sure to follow any other links that an article may provide.

As far as magic and kaballah, yes, the ancients (not just rabbis) practiced many kinds of magic, mainly due to the fact that their belief systems were full of superstitions that allowed for that kind of thing, as well as experimenting into those powers that surround us that are not superstitious.  The formal Kabbalah did not form until the medieval period, and this was certainly within the ranks of Jewish Rabbi's by then, but the name itself means 'tradition' so they no doubt kept alive a lot things that the ancients had studied and practiced, albeit that they updated it to medieval world thought.

Go to: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp  and again, search most any topic, e.g., magic, Kabbalah, superstition, etc.
 
And when searching for these topics, any .edu site is pretty reliable because they have been required to do their homework...

That is not to say that other sites are not informative, just be careful until you can verify certain claims with reputable back-up data or you may be lead astray. Verifiable resources are 'outside of the bible ancient written sources' so be sure to check any and all footnotes provided.  If there is no backup supporting documentation, then it may well be just a conjecture made by someone without any supporting information....and A LOT of wild conjectures are being made all the time...

Happy Hunting!!
Beth
163  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / contradictions in religions on: February 14, 2006, 04:21:14
p.s.  If it is Mustardseed that is being so offended, well, all I can say Leyla, is he can be a really 'tough nut' but he has also really come a long way over the past few years!  Like I said, it will take time Leyla...and A LOT of PATIENCE....

p.s.s. .....hey mustardseed !!! :flowers: how's it going?  Are you back to causing 'astral angst' again Huh?  :naughty:   :heartsmile:
164  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / contradictions in religions on: February 14, 2006, 04:09:24
Welllll....I would have to disagree with your volcano theory, on the grounds that I do not take the biblical narratives as literal accounts...of virtually all of its claims.  

I have found that the bible is full of metaphors, symbols, allegories, similies, allusions, etc., and through a study of both the Greek and Semitic languages, as well as some Latin, that the meanings of all of these things can be determined to be quite different than the narrative stories reveal; I am finding a very different understanding of scripture in doing so.  

As for the quotations you used to support your theory, several of them, I think are referring to the Logos, or 'Reason', oftentimes described as the 'element of fire' and also known as the 'Mind of God'.

But that's just my two-cents worth...

~Beth
165  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / What did Jesus look like? on: February 14, 2006, 03:55:51
Leyla,

Those descriptions sound very much like those made of 'Socrates' by the Greeks...which, in a primarily Greek speaking world, as a first century model for 'salvation' as 'the name of Jesus' is, a comparison to Socrates is not as far-fetched as it sounds... cool

~Beth
166  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / contradictions in religions on: February 14, 2006, 03:47:34
Leyla,

I personally understand how difficult it is to get Christians to think outside of their well established doctrines long enough to see how irrational their beliefs are.  I also understand 'that tremendous need' to 'make people see' what is so clearly right before all our eyes.  But I am learning that humans have to learn to crawl before they can stand up on their own, and they must be able to stand up on their own before they can walk.  Extend this metaphor to 'rational thinking'.  

And you are right Leyla, it is becoming easier and easier to disassemble the biblical narratives to show that they are not what they have been held to be for so many centuries.  These proofs are coming from many different places, in many different ways, so a great deal of time and patience will be required of us all.  Personally, it has taken me many years and a great deal of academic study to figure out all that I have, and there is still a great deal that I do not as yet understand.

IMHO, every Christian should be required to own a copy of Strong's and be required to study it in detail!!! :reading:  That, in and of itself would change a lot of things, but even then it would not happen overnight.  

I am interested to know what your research entails...give me a thread and I can read up on it, or you can summarize here...

Thanks,
Beth
167  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / contradictions in religions on: February 13, 2006, 13:37:33
Just another attempt to explain one of the claims that a literal reading of the bible makes.  

My advice:  Pay no attention to that stuff...

Peace,
Beth
168  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / contradictions in religions on: February 12, 2006, 20:13:55
For the most part, Leyla, you are correct.  Constantine was NOT a Christian throughout his life, although he was baptized upon his deathbed.  His bedside conversion should be a huge clue as to the major loop-hole that Christianity contains, i.e., no matter what you do, as long as you convert, even on your deathbed, you are SAVED.

Constantine pretty much sat back during these councils and let the various Christian Bishops, representing quite a few very different positions on Christian Doctrine, hash everything out.  But he was shrewd enough to see that in order to get EVERYONE to follow HIM, he needed a religion/God that would appeal to ALL of the masses involved.  It is recorded that he did want to include Mithraism into the tenets of Christianity, such as the Dec 24 birthday of the son of the god, as well as the official day of worship to be what became 'SUN-DAY'.  There were also a few Mithraic/Roman festivals that he had worked into the scheme.  Now at some point he did tire of the never-ending debates between the Christian Bishops and did call a halt to the discussions...at that point it did concretize to a certain extent, but the other dissenting sects just went out on their own and survived as best as they could as heretics.

The ultimate development of Christianity, however, was not an overnight thing.
Quote from: Leyla
...And there it has stayed ever since.
 Only until the Reformation and the Enlightenment.  In addition to the development of Protestantism, Catholic Christianity did go through a more academic phase which revamped its spiritual tenets which we find with St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila.  These 'mystics' were sanctioned by the Church, and allowed a lot of latitude in their interpretation of scripture, albeit that they were sequestered within monestary walls, where 'biblical symbolism' was allowed to take presendence over a literal understanding. Unfortunately, most of this revamping never reached the masses on any great scale.  

Today, there are so many branches of Christianity that many Christians are totally clueless of what other Christians believe, and in order to avoid standing up against other Christians, the majority allow for fundamental extremists to speak for everyone.  We are seeing this same thing within Islam now...

IMHO, I think the biggest obstacle that Christianity is facing, because of its immature belief in fantastical fictional stories, is that Jesus was made the same as God in their doctrine.  As I introduce my research to different kinds of people, and they hear me explain how Jesus was a fictional character, the first question that some people ask me is:  "Well, do you not believe in God then?"    

The first few times this happened, I was totally taken aback!!  I always thought that my research would open Christianity up to a more spiritual way of looking at life, both mundane and divine, through the movement from a literal belief to a symbolic understanding..........but.......now I am not quite so sure, or even hopeful at this point.  As Jesus 'goes away' into the category of a fictional character, 'God' and 'divine belief' may well go to the wayside as well...

I cannot be sure of course, but if Christianity experiences a major fall, then 'anarchy' may well be 'loosed upon the earth' by those who believe the absurd idea that Jesus was actually God of the entire Universe.  The best that we can hope for is the simultaneous evolution of a more Rational World to be there to maintain rational control...

~Beth
169  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / contradictions in religions on: February 12, 2006, 02:26:26
Most all of the contradictions within the Christian bible can be explained by the research that I have been working on for the past five years.  Soon to be released as an e-book, I show where the literary tool of 'proper name wordplay' was used by four different writers to ultimately come up with what we now know as 'The Four Synoptic Gospels'.  

In short, biblical proper names were created to have certain lexical meanings.  When four different writers use the same list of proper names for the characters in their stories, and each writer utilizes the lexical meanings that make certain key motifs and other narrative details possible, then what you get is four generally agreeable versions of the same story with only a few details that differ.  

As a result of this finding, biblical contradictions and inconsistencies can be easily explained as individual creative license on the part of each writer...and...when writing 'fiction' that is a totally acceptable thing to occur.

The bible was a multilingual storybook; not the word of a God, or even the 'history' of any peoples.  The biblical characters were totally fictional, from Adam and Eve, to Abraham and the Hebrews, to Jacob and the Twelve Tribes of Israel, to Jesus and the disciples.  This is why the world's desert diggers can't find anything to support the biblical accounts...it is all fiction...quite good fiction for the ancient period in which it was written, but fiction nonetheless.

~Beth

p.s. I will let everyone know when the e-book is available.  I am doing my final, final edit  grin
170  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / The pictures of Muhammd on: February 12, 2006, 01:50:53
Doug, you wrote--quite correctly:

Quote
Moderate Muslims have been to afraid to stand up as yet, as they don't like to be seen as being critical of other Muslims, but they have to realise that these people are not true Muslims, they are very sick people and their actions should be condemned and condemned 100%
 
 
Which is exactly why I made the comparison to Medieval Christianity.  In a slightly altered version of your quote, the same thing could have been said about 500 years ago...

Quote
Moderate Christians are afraid to stand up as yet, as they don't like to be seen as being critical of other Christians, but they have to realise that these people are not true Christians, they are very sick people and their actions should be condemned and condemned 100%
 

...And eventually the Protestant Reformation came about.  

Now, Jilola, about Christianity today, yes, it is once again in some serious hot water, so it is definately time to rethink Christianity yet again--for now the corruptive power of being able 'to speak for God' has enabled the Protestants to become out of control.  And yes, Mustardseed, the clerics did indeed know, but...just like the medieval priests, bishops and popes, as long as the believers are ignorant and are willing to follow blindly, then these religious authorities will continue to get away with just about anything.  My main point is that Islam today is in its 'medieval stage' just like Christianity once was...where religious tyranny meets face-to-face with a more rational, secularized world.

I am of the personal opinion that religion today has totally run amok...but religion in general is not likely to dissappear over night, with literally billions of followers of one religion or another.  It is, however, the 21st century and there are too many people who are adversely affected by religious belief systems that they themselves do not adhere to.  So, once again Doug's quote is appropriate to slightly alter for this as well:
Quote
Political moderates and liberals have been to afraid to stand up as yet, as they don't like to be seen as being critical of religious believers, but they have to realise that these people are not true to any kind of loving deity, they are very sick people and their actions should be condemned and condemned 100%


~Beth

p.s. Doug, I hope you don't mind if I altered the context of your words...
171  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / The pictures of Muhammd on: February 11, 2006, 04:35:38
Hello Everyone~~

My thoughts on this issue take me back to the Medieval Christian Church, where the governing bodies across Europe would look to 'The Church' in matters of 'Law'.  This essentially made 'Christianity' the 'Judge' and the 'Jury' for many criminal offenses across the entire western world.  

Of course, civilization progressed/evolved and Civil Governments began to form, e.g., the formation of The United States and its Constitution went hand in hand with the rapid fall of Monarchies that had been sanctioned by (i.e., in bed with) 'The Church'.  With this governmental changeover to civil government, Christianity lost a great deal of its previously held 'carte blanc power'.

However, the struggle between the powers of a 'Man-Made God' and the powers of a 'Collective Civil Humanity' takes time; even after over 200 years of Civil Government, the United States is still struggling with Christianity and its desire to usurp governmental power.  Fortunately, the civil laws of this country are just that--civil laws--not religious laws.  And within these civil laws come the much debated "Freedom of Expression" which is regularly defended in our higher courts of law.  This is the issue here across the western world: do these cartoons come under the protection of 'Freedom of Expression'?  In a western, civil government, the answer is probably 'Yes'.  

But, a mere several hundred years ago, when the Christian Church was still in control of the western government, it was a regular practice to 'cut off heads', 'to execute by burning', or just plain 'torture to death' ANYONE who spoke out against the religion in general, its doctrines, or in specific, its Popes, Bishops or other clerical members.  
 
So, the extreme Islamic reaction to these newpaper drawings, e.g., execute the artists, the editors and I suppose, a large chunk of the Danish population, is not that much different than the Christian Church would have done just a few centuries ago.

Islamic countries may have a somewhat civil governing base, but it still has what is called 'Shariah Law' which is a Koranic Governing Body that usually gets the final say in matters of serious offenses. As long as the Islamic Religion has that much of a voice within the MidEast governments, then reactions like this are to be expected in defense of the religion...

Bottom line...as Civil Governments within Islamic Countries continue to spread and develop, the result will be just like it was with Christianity: the barbaric extremism in the name of religion will eventually come to an end.

Of course, the trick here is to make sure that no nukes go off in the meantime...

Peace  :question:
Beth
172  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Islamic Knowledge versus Western ideas on: November 19, 2005, 03:57:12
p.s.  Islam is greatly indebted to both Plato and Aristotle for a great deal of its political philosophy via the works of Al-Farabi, Avicenna, and Averroes.
Quick Reference: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/arab-y67s11.html

And don't forget its dependence upon Judaism and Christianity for its very foundation...

p.s.s. So, be very careful in trying to cut the roots out of a full grown tree.  Common sense tells that if you do, you must also be prepared for the whole tree to die....

Beth
173  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Islamic Knowledge versus Western ideas on: November 19, 2005, 03:46:23
Abraham,

There is one very simple, but extremely important fact that you are neglecting to consider.  You wrote:
Quote
This Western idea of progress, of an ideal (but impractical) society with a Destiny to make it real, is perhaps one of greatest misfortunes the West has produced, for since its genesis in the culture of ancient Greece (witness Plato, and Alexander) it has caused immense suffering and destruction.
 
If it had not been for the work of Plato, Aristotle and the goal of 'Reason' in human thought, and then ... Alexander spreading this knowledge, and Greek culture in general, throughout the Ancient Near and Middle East ... then Judaism would never have been more than a bunch of oral stories told around campfires in the desert, nor would it have ever provided the necessary root system for Christianty or Islam!  

Also, the actual religion of Islam was created and developed in great part in response to the social and political climate of the early medieval period, which was necessary for Islam to have even been conceived.  This social and political climate was, by this time, more reflective of Roman government as it had absorbed Greek and other ideas along the way.

Bottom line, for better or for worse, without Greek culture, and then Roman culture after it, none of the three major western religions would even exist...

Peace,
Beth
174  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Losing my Religion... on: November 06, 2005, 06:04:06
Quote from: magicmac2000
...The had these written words: "To meet the third person (El / He), you should first know the second one (Tu / You)" ... I don't understand what I thought in the dream, but it was a feeling like: In order to meet God, you should first meet somebody else.

Well, since -- grammatically speaking -- the 'third person' is he/she/it and the 'second person' is 'you' and the first person is 'I'...then I think your dream is actually pretty clear....

The other person that you think you have to meet is......YOU.!!!!!

On the entrance to the Temple at Delphi in ancient Greece there was an engraving that has become a very important maxim:  KNOW THYSELF.  

Think on that one for a while!!! wink

Beth
175  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / hey I need some help on: November 05, 2005, 19:11:22
Dear Steve,

I just posted a response to a similar question that you can read: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21111

You can also check out my research project at:  http://www.fireonthewateronline.com

Let us know if there is anything else we can help you with, but if I may also add...don't allow anyone to think for you, or to just provide you with 'pat' answers on any of this...

That is what has gotten us all into this mess to begin with...

If you want to seek God....then by all means...seek God.  If there is a God, you will no doubt find out more about god from god...

If you want to know about the Bible....then seek to learn all that you can about it...

But consider this...

God does not= Bible

Take care,
Beth
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