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226  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Sweet Jesus on: August 13, 2005, 05:51:11
What does Jesus look like? Can anyone describe him?
227  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / "The Tomb of Jesus" on: August 13, 2005, 05:47:20
Well I hate to burst everyone's bubble....

BUT....Jesus isn't buried anywhere.  Jesus was a fictional creation modeled after Plato's Philosopher King and enhanced by just about every cultural myth of the greater Mediterranean and Ancient Near Eastern World.  

So ... as long as the bible is being read, Jesus will remain alive and well within the pages of the New Testament!  

Right now I am reading Mary Stewart's "Merlin Trilogy" and up until now I had no idea that Ambrosius was buried under Stonehenge!!!  But I do not need to go digging up the Giant's Dance to 'prove it'; as long as I am reading Mary's book then I must accept that 'fictional fact' or I would no longer be able to enjoy her tale...

Fiction....gotta love it!!

Peace,
Beth
228  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / "The Tomb of Jesus" on: August 11, 2005, 04:34:26
rolleyes  rolleyes  rolleyes

Less poetic than "horse bollocks" ...

but IMO, that stuff is all Stupidity and IGNORANCE.

 rolleyes  rolleyes  rolleyes
229  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / AP Means Hellbound? on: August 11, 2005, 04:26:54
Quote
Kid: Dad, how do we know right and wrong?
Dad: Because the bible tells us what's right.
Kid: How do we know the bible is right?
Dad: Because the bible tells us it's right.


LOL...cheesy  cheesy What a great way to explain the more academic term "circular argument".  This is what Christianity is based upon. The only justification they have of the bible is found in the bible.

This justification has enabled these three primary western religions to create a entirely illusional world that they call 'history' that will never be proven to have happened.  (I don't care what Mel Gibson thinks!!!) The bible stories are just stories, and as such, not real.  

But always remember, it is the human mind that has allowed the religions of the bible to take on such magnitude.  Maybe early on people were actually afraid for their lives if they did not convert, but today's world is very different, it is more intellectual laziness than anything else, and being "a member" of a very large established group makes some people feel more 'normal' ... whatever that is!

But, this is just my opinion...

Peace,
Beth
230  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Astral Projection and The Reformed Christian on: August 11, 2005, 04:05:34
Dear Stookie,

I wish I could provide you with THE ANSWER that you seek, but I am not yet convinced that there is ONE ANSWER that we can ever know as long as we are in these present bodies.  

My knowledge base (which certainly includes Christianity), as well as my personal experience of the astral tells me that whatever we experience, at least initially when we leave these bodies for good, is very much a mental construct of our own making.   I have the feeling that whatever 'I think' will be awaiting my last breath here and my first breath there, will indeed be 'waiting for me' at least to some extent.  What happens after that? I cannot say. Because these bigger questions are not so readily answered, I try to live within the answers that I can find.  

Seek and ye shall find.  Knock and it shall be answered unto you.  From following this maxim, I have found that there are guiding forces in my life, and it is to those forces that I have learned to work with along with my own reasoning ability.  To do the same would be the best advice I can offer.  This path can be very exciting and very challenging as well.  To do so in a world where religion is so prevalent, you have to be willing to walk on the fringes of society to a great extent. This is not easy for some people, but is definately a do-able for others; and times are a'changin' and one day it will be more the norm than the exception. Until then, it is up to you to be true to yourself with every step you take.  

Peace,
Beth
231  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / The End of Faith on: July 24, 2005, 10:35:46
Yes Gandalf, we can openly discuss and think critically about religion, especially on forums such as this one, and perhaps this is also the case in the social sphere of Scotland; but here in the US "religion" doesn't even bother to walk softly and has no problem whatsoever wielding its 'Big Stick'.  

Here in the US, the constitution is supposed to support the freedom of religion, all the while protecting the people from a "state sponsored religion."  Well...I watched, over the course of several years, how easily this current administration wooed the fundamentalist Christians for the 2004 presidential election.  From a sociological standpoint, this 'mass mobilization' was quite amazing to watch, but for the many other millions of people--it was without doubt--a very disheartening experience.  

I think the most pressing issue here (though I have not yet read Harris' book) is the 'convenient use of religious faith' to justify the actions of state, whether it be the enactment of law, the dispensation of ethical norms/dictation of morality (upon which the relavant laws are oftentimes interpreted), and/or control over our military and the decision to go to war.  Moreover, most people who are smarter than that ARE NOT BOTHERING TO STAND UP TO THEM!!!!!!!  

Even if Sam's book is repeating what other authors have said before him, here in this country we will probably need books like this on a regular basis---books that challenge this intellectually vapid collective consciousness----until one day it will sink into enough thick skulls and REASON will prevail.

Do I think that religion in general will ever go away?  Probably not.  Too many people are 'needy' for an 'easy answer' that will require nothing of them intellectually, yet provide something that they can relate to, something that will give them power over their lives, and justification for their actions.  That is exactly what religions do.   I cannot think who wrote it (was it Eliade?), but it is a good one:  "God created man in his own image, and man did not hesitate to return the favor."

That is why GOD, for all intents and purposes, acts very HUMAN and fits perfectly in a human world.   What we need I guess is a GOD of REASON, and a HOLY WRIT of RATIONAL THOUGHT.

Peace,
Beth
232  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Who Jesus really was? on: July 22, 2005, 11:19:39
Anti,

Spiritual seekers seek those things of the spirit, whether in scripture or in life itself.  

As ugly as these stories are, pick up any daily newpaper and see if you don't read of the same kind of things happening in the world today.

The bible is an ancient collection of fiction and mythology, created through the tools of creative writing.  When deeper meanings are lifted from those same pages, through the use of allegory, metaphor and symbol, then those atrocities and perversions come to represent very different things.  

The daily news is not, however, written metaphorically or symbolically.  The daily news is the actual continuing historical account of the human race.  

If you want to be justified in your indignant outrage....this fact would be a very worthy reason to do so.

Beth
233  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Who Jesus really was? on: July 20, 2005, 08:19:30
Projector:  I do care.

There is a tremendous amount of wisdom to be found in the Bible. The ethics, morals, parables and other kernals of knowledge should always be viewed as being a lending hand to those who strive for a higher path in life.  Accepting that Adam, Eve, Abraham, Moses, Daniel, Jesus, Peter, Paul. etc., were all fictional characters used through the medium of "story" should not deprive the writings from their higher purpose.  

"Jesus" does not have to be "God" for the Bible to maintain its worth.  Jesus only has to be God for dogma's sake.  In fact, the character Jesus taught against such dogma (and many other things that dogma has ignored.)  

The need for Jesus to have been a man, or a God, is milk.  Milk is for children.  To be able to look deeper into the 'meanings' of the texts is the meat of the matter; and this is only for those mature enough to handle it.  

Hebrews 5:11-14:
We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

There is so much more to the Bible than a surface reading of the texts allow.  To stop there is to miss the most important parts of the messages.  The writers of the bible were not historians.  They were seekers just like us.

And as this forum represents on a daily basis, there is so much more to our reality than what appears upon the collective surface.  We few do not stop there...we cannot...everything that we are becoming is begging for more.   The writers of the bible were no different.

Peace,
Beth
234  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Is an AP during a dream, a real AP? on: July 17, 2005, 23:26:27
Frank,

I know exactly what you mean about the false awakenings!  In the early years of my experiences, I often got 'caught in a loop' of being 'in a dream of a dream'.    A bit later, I knew (because of the sensational marking of an AP) that I had projected into what appeared to be 'layers upon layers of reality' from which I would awake, believing I was really awake only to find that I was 'just caught' in another layer.  

I finally learned that each layer was distinguished by an alteration of content from the one previous to it, or the one to which I could expect to find myself next, e.g., a piece of furniture moved, a wall moved, or even something so fantastic as an elephant in the room!   It was not until the physical contents of the experience truly matched up to what I remembered that I 'knew' that I was indeed back where I started.  

Once, I must admit, I became freightened that I would never find my way back, for I had been in multiple layers for so long (I had already counted 10 different false awakenings in this one experience.)  As you pointed out in your response, it finally occured to me that I needed a 'wake-up call' from this PF to bring me back.  Not knowning what else to do, I 'mentally sent a message' to the other person that I was living with at the time to "MAKE A NOISE" "ANYTHING" !!!  And sure enough, somehow, someway, he got the message and dropped something on the floor that made a big enough noise to 'wake me up for real'!!  

That was back in 1999...and I actually haven't been caught since then...hhmmmm....maybe I learned the lesson being offered!!

Please understand, I do not wish to freighten anyone by the telling of this, but rather, to perhaps provide a tool if this ever happens to you.  At the recognition that you are awake within one of these loops, focus on your PF and ask for help like I did.  Even if you live alone, still ask for help, for I have come to believe that in the same experiences previous to the one mentioned above, I somehow 'knew' that this was the key, and several times the phone would ring to bring me back.  Each time it was my mother calling me!  Did she feel my distress?  I cannot be sure, but it worked!!!  

So what you are saying then Frank, is that this same process just described is also necessary to those living in PF3 that are caught in a construct of their own making??  


You also said that in the upper branches of PF3 it appears to be even more physical than the other branches.  Does this level come close in comparison to this physical PF?  If so, can the levels in-between be like the filters that join two physical realities?  

Peace,
Beth
235  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Is an AP during a dream, a real AP? on: July 17, 2005, 08:40:53
Frank,

The extraordinary physical sensations that come with a standard OBE seem to become ‘proof’ that what is occurring is actually an AP and not ‘just a dream’.  

When these sensations are noticeably absent, it is easy to question ‘the kind of experience’ that occurred.  In other words, without the ‘extraordinary’ the experience seems so ‘mundane’.  

Yet, even in the absence of the physical sensations, I find myself having to accept that I am somehow ‘bypassing’ this step and moving straight into another focus point.  

It is like having two distinctly different experiences:  one is ‘to ride a super roller coaster’ and the other is to merely ‘blink your eye’.   The first is very heady stuff, but the latter is noticeably absent of physical sensation.  Of course, now that I think about this, is that the point?  In other words, do we need to learn how to ‘wean ourselves’ from physical sensation?

So, I guess the real question here is: are the distinctive marks of a standard OBE indicative of a ‘RTZ’ projection within Focus 1, or, can a shifting into Focus 2 or even 3 also occur in tandem with the extraordinary physical sensations?  If yes, then why are the physical sensations sometimes present and sometimes not?

Further extending Ben K's question:  how can I be sure that I have not already ‘died’ to this physical world and am just living in a Focus 3 construct of my own making?

Peace,
Beth
236  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Is an AP during a dream, a real AP? on: July 14, 2005, 05:10:11
Frank,

hmmm....

Okay, I have a few more questions then if you don't mind:

1)  Can we 'dream' of having an AP, or are 'all dreams' to a certain extent projection experiences?  (project=moving one's focus)

2) Do people who are 'resident within Focus 3' dream about us and have experiences that they too have to understand as temporary shifts in their focus, i.e., project/phase, that help explain certain experiences with us??

3) And finally, when we are experiencing 'them' are they also experiencing 'us' at the same time?


Thanks Frank,
Beth
237  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Is an AP during a dream, a real AP? on: July 14, 2005, 02:52:56
Well Frank....A woman is now on the scene!! Cool  ....but I won't try to dictate that you are wrong! wink

In this, I think that what you say is very provocative (which has a better than average chance of 'being right'!!...JK!)  Your explanation certainly rings true, but is it really an explanation, or is it just a definition of terms?... I understand that to say --- "my reality includes" AP or Phasing or whatever we want to call it, as well as the many other things that I do thoughout my day --- is a correct and logical statement...for that is MY experience, hence, MY REALITY.  

But, how do we explain, or account for, a living reality that is not as easily accessed as my car, for instance, and includes other entities that I have no sure, consistantly predictable, way of contacting--except through an altered state of consciousness?  Are these experiences extraordinary dreams, or is our ability to claim this unique kind of reality as being our own just extraordinary circumstances?
 
Additionally, how do we account for 'the implications of a living reality' that is not shared by those around us? In other words, while my neighbors, family, friends and associates most definately share the more tangible aspects of my reality, they do not share this much more intimate aspect. More often than not, I feel as though I am straddling a chasm between, what seems to be, 'more than one world' -- 'more than one reality'.  One of which I can share with others, and the other I cannot.

How do you deal with this Frank?

Peace,
Beth
238  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Who Jesus really was? on: July 14, 2005, 01:51:39
Leannain,

 Cheesy I see.  

I guess being a normal man, albeit a errant kind of king--and myth or no--is a much more logical way to view the matter.

I wonder though, whether "luck" had anything to do with the development of the cult...hmmmm....

...yes, most definately.  A lot of luck and a lot of carefully executed machinations...but certainly not on the part of anyone living in the first century!

Oh, well!   Just my own musings.....

Peace be with you Leannain,
Beth
239  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Who Jesus really was? on: July 13, 2005, 11:45:39
Leannain,

If we know nothing, upon what do you base your opinion that he was even an ordinary man of a royal family who sought to be a king?   The only evidence we do have of him is found in the biblical narratives, and those stories do not support your line of thinking.  

Why read something more into the myth than the story itself provides?...for that is exactly what it is--a story.  

Just curious...

Peace,
Beth
240  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Who Jesus really was? on: July 12, 2005, 21:58:25
Markulous,

The topic of religion can be a very touchy subject and unfortunately your particular comment is one that I have heard many times before!  

Now that you have clarified your position, I humbly withdraw my critique. wink

Peace be with you!
Beth  Cheesy
241  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / guides? on: July 12, 2005, 08:58:41
I like the questions that Runola is asking.  Frank, can you help us here??

In general to the posts in this thread:
Some people may not need these questions answered (James for instance) just as some people may not need to 'raise their kundalini' to achieve astral success (me for instance.)  While I am not interested in exploring kundalini, that does not mean that kundalini is not useful.  

Systems are by nature constructs; one construct make work for some, but another may work for others.  Whether 'poetic' or 'rational'  -- 'mystical' or 'scientific' there is no reason to 'pit one against the other'.  All systemic constructs are necessary else they would cease to exist from a lack of use.

So, if the poetic or mystical offends you, then seek out something different (which is clearly what Frank is trying to offer.) 'Getting there' is the objective right?  But there is no need to 'bash' the poetic or mystical in order to justify the use of a non-poetic/mystical approach.

I think we can all agree that the 'astral' is for the most part 'a highly malleable area of reality' (whether it is 'collectively out there' or 'individually within each mind') so...why argue over things that are so nebulous??

If Frank's approach works for you as he presents it--go for it.  
If, however, you want to use Frank's model but you also want to precede his method with a ritual 'fasting', a few 'candles' and 'a prayer', what difference does it make?   Frank will never know  wink  and if his model truly works, the inclusion of your ritual will not impede your success!  


Peace,
Beth
242  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Satanism on: July 12, 2005, 08:13:54
Regardless of how you cut it....

Satanism is an extremist sect of Christianity.  

What does this mean?  This means that Satanists need the bible and the dogmas of Christianity to even exist as a 'religion'.  

If Christianity disappeared one day in a 'poof of logic', then Satanism would disappear at the same time.

Peace,
Beth
243  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Who Jesus really was? on: July 12, 2005, 07:59:33
Hello all!

I can see a serious misfire of communication in the making.  May I interject?  No???...well, too bad!!! wink  cheesy

Dr. Anti:
I cannot speak for James, but what I think he is saying has less to do with the object of your critique, i.e., Christianity, and more to do with the way you are going about it!  The hostility in your tone, or lack of finesse (whichever!) does nothing to support an argument as to 'why' your position is the case.  In other words, putting more emphasis on your words does not make them more convincing!!  As James pointed out, preachers--whether 'for' or 'against' any particular religion are not welcome here.   If you want to make such a claim you need to support it some other way than to rely so heavily upon an appeal to the emotions!  WHY is Jesus a myth??? What makes this the case?  

Markulous:
There is a distinct difference in what you are requesting of Dr. Anti and what James is requesting...And Markulous, your request is just as absurd and empty of substance as Dr. Anti's claim.  

Think about it!  Requesting of Dr. Anti to "provide facts that these things did NOT happen" makes so sense at all, and moreover, does NOT in any way 'prove' that they did.  

In FACT, the 'lack of proof' or 'absence of evidence' already exists which prohibits biblical scripture from belonging to the sphere of 'history' or of 'provable fact' (science.)   Biblical scripture belongs in the realm of literature in general, and religious literature in specific.  The only importance that biblical scripture has that pertains to 'history' or 'provable fact' is the phenomenon that occured with the development of what has become Christianity through humanity's ability to turn myth into reality.  

At this stage of humanity's evolution, the use of myths, metaphors and symbols are fundamental to the understanding and communication of our individual and our collective experiences.  

Long before the bible was ever written, other myths served the same purposes, and at some time in the future, new myths will eventually replace the bible.  

Granted, the biblical myths have enjoyed centuries of the 'bestselling myths' but this DOES NOT make the myths TRUE!!! What is does do, however, is reinforce the power of myth in general and at the same time illustrate how other cultural influences e.g., political and economic, have used myth as a tool to empower particular agendas.

Think about these things.  Read up on all sides of an issue.  Use your own MIND.  Matters of the heart are not always logical or rational, but matters of the mind demand to be!

Peace,
Beth
244  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Strange and Surreal on: June 11, 2005, 05:51:30
Leyla,

I have had similar things happen as well, and some of my experiences have also contained a pentagram or five pointed star or shape, as well as a hexagram or six points.  smiley   smiley  smiley   I really wish I knew what the symbols mean in the astral context, for all of the data that I have read about these symbols do not satisfy the context!

But I must agree with violeteye: Just know that on some level you did understand, and that when the time is right the information will be there for your use; that is what I have had to do.  But also like violeteye said, it can still be very frustrating!

Beth
245  Integral Philosophy / Welcome to Integral Philosophy! / Duality Dilemma: on: June 11, 2005, 05:36:59
Major Tom,

My critique of the use of subjectivity/objectivity in the context that it is being used, is probably a very post-modern/deconstructionist thing to do.  

The limits of language have always gotten in the way of discussing extra-physical or non-physical phenomena, and is why these experiences are most often relagated into 'mystical' categories.  This also led to Wiggenstein's "pass over in silence" quote that many 'mystics' grabbed onto as their 'banner of verification' if you will.

But...if we (and Frank specifically) are going to seek out/claim that there is a scientific way of approaching and understanding Astral phenomena, then we must use a language that 'works'.  It is my contention that the words "subjectivity" and "objectivity" only work in discreet elements of his model, but when the model is looked at as a whole, the language becomes unstable.
 
So, if we (or Frank) do not come up with the language that can adequately cover the elements of such a 'science' then discerning intelligent minds will have to, at some point, be forced to cross a linguistic bridge that is actually a slippery slope.

If someone can show me that I am 'all wet' then please do, for I am just trying to logically account for my own experiences and be able to put that logic into words.

 huh  Beth
246  Bug Reports and Questions / Forums Bugs Reports and Questions / My "Preview" option does not work... on: June 11, 2005, 01:15:00
Okay, let's see if that works........


hehehe....well, I'll be darn....there it is!!   The old version actually created a popup I think!  Anyway....

Thanks Runola!!!   cheesy
247  Bug Reports and Questions / Forums Bugs Reports and Questions / My "Preview" option does not work... on: June 11, 2005, 00:44:56
Hey all,

After I create a post and then want to 'preview' it for review purposes, it only 'flashes' for an instant, and then returns to the create screen.  I usually have to go ahead and post it and then edit it if needed.

Am I doing something wrong?

Thanks,
Beth
248  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Experience: Going into the light on: June 11, 2005, 00:40:54
Greatoutdoors, I am glad to know someone else feels 'homesick' too!  So far, few people have related to me similar feelings, but that does not keep me from still feeling it myself.

Gandalf, yes that is certainly true, I do have something to aim for, and even though that was almost 4 years ago now, and a similar experience has eluded me so far, knowing it as 'my truth' does give me a lot to look forward to, in fact, that is usually how I pull myself out the depression that sometimes comes!

 Cheesy  Beth
249  Integral Philosophy / Welcome to Integral Philosophy! / Duality Dilemma: on: June 11, 2005, 00:03:13
Dear Shinobi,

Thanks for jumping in!!! cheesy

I quite agree that 'out-there' and 'within' are not necessarily mutally exclusive--but how do we talk about that?  All of these models can serve to help us understand what it going on here, like for example, if the 'mind split' theory is somewhat correct, then "I" can be both places at once.  I have always liked this idea, but it too has some problems.  

But within just about all the models that I have been exposed to, the issue of subjectivity/objectivity is a real booger.  I could try to explain it like this:

Within 'me' there is both a subjective and objective aspect, that can function 'subjectively' as both a subjective entity and an objective entity within both the subjectively/objective physical plane and the subjectively/objective astral plane. In other words, "I" in my astral form can 'subjectively' apprehend 'myself' as an 'objective physical entity', all the while apprehending 'myself' 'subjectively' as I move about in an 'objectively subjective astral world."  With a bit of dual awareness, I can also "subjectively" experience the "objective" movements of my astral form within the astral plane.

Now this totally makes sense to me, for I am while I type, applying this to my various experiences...but someone else reading this who has not experienced the same things may well respond with "WHAT?Huh shocked  That lady is nuts! That makes no sense whatsoever!!"

The very terms "subjective" and "objective" are very loaded terms just when it comes to experiencing the physical world! And are that much more loaded when we apply it to our experiences of the astral.  

This whole issue seems to demand a "relative point of reference."  If so, then...(I will see if I can set this up correctly!) it may be expounded upon something like this:

As I lay down to rest it appears to be a no brainer that "I" am the subjective element within the objective reality of my room, my bed, and even to my cat.  Here, my relative point of reference is easily understood so subjectivity and objectivity are pretty easy to understand.  

As I am experiencing the astral, however, I feel as though "I" am still subjectively experiencing an objective reality. But even within this aspect, subjectivity and objectivity are still useful terms as my relative point of reference is in the same plane of existence.  

But, when "I return" or "awaken" my relative point of reference has changed dramatically:  I am now subjectively recalling 'myself' in the astral but as an 'objective entity' to 'my subjective self', rather than with the same 'astral subjectivity' as before.  Add to this problem, other people, events, and activities, and you really find yourself in a subject/object mess!

Now, because there have been times when I have been traversing the astral and I have had a brief moment of being able to, for example, feel the design on my pillowcase with my fingertip all the while still being active on the astral, my ability to 'subjectively experience' has been enlarged to do so simultaneously in two seemingly separate realities.

This tells me that "I" am actually a "subjective entity" in both places at the same time.  But -- by definition, this cannot actually be the case, for "subjectivity" is of 'one entity' not 'two'.  One of those 'entities' must be an objective entity to the other.  But which one am "I"??

If this makes sense to anyone else, then as you can see, the terms "subjectivity/objectivity" are very tricky in these contexts!

To avoid the solipsism that would easily reconcile this problem, the "one universal mind with many awarenesses" model works to an extent, but when the details are singularily examined, this model too tends to fall apart (or at least our ability to conceive of it anyway.)

So, what to do?  I tend to think we need new words that will encapsulate the multiple realities involved in AP rather than try and use words that are best suited for 'one' world alone.

But either way, I think this issue is really important to this forum, so does anyone have other ideas or comments?

Beth    

p.s. Solipsism=a theory holding that the self can know nothing but its own modifications and that the self is the only existent thing
250  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Experience: Going into the light on: June 10, 2005, 19:25:26
From My Journal:
Wednesday July 25, 2001

Between 3:00 and 3:45 p.m., I had a most extraordinary experience.
It began with a dream of my older son who was talking on the phone across from me.  Looking at him sitting there, I began to fall deeply asleep within this dream, almost pass out in a way.  I could not keep my eyes open, but managed to say to my son, “Don’t leave yet, I want to see you.”  With that, my son was standing in front of me, bare-chested and glowing with white light.  He reached out his hand, and struggling through the heavy sleep I managed to take his right hand with my left hand.  

As soon as our hands made contact, an incredibly intense surge/bolt of white light coursed through my body.  My physical body was laying on its right side, but “I” was now facing the ceiling.  This light/power/bolt of energy was so intensly flowing through me that I began to rise out of my body as a long, rectangular and still reclined pillar of white light.  (This was definately not my usual out-of-body projected double.)  

I could hear myself crackle, hiss and pop with this surge of energy; I realized this must be what it is like to be electrocuted, and quickly assumed that I was dying.  But even this didn't matter, and giving over to it I was becoming the most radiant light I had ever seen.  

I also became aware of another presence of light on the ceiling just beyond me.  I continued to rise high over my body toward the ceiling, and upon reaching the ceiling my new light body rolled up like a carpet, then folded in on itself creating a ball or sphere.  Now I was a sphere of brilliant light!!!

At this point I did not just fly, I zoomed at a speed that I cannot possibly describe.  I zoomed through my apartment.  As I approached walls, the walls gave way to me, not by opening up but by changing their form to accommodate me; like a trampoline would for a jumper, I suppose.  This was a most exhilarating experience!!!!  I laughed out loud, marveling at this; zooming around to the sound of my own thoughts yelling “Woo-whoo!!!”  I was filled with PURE JOY and a newfound sense of FREEDOM.   (I have had many projection/flying experiences, but I had never experienced anything like this!)

I zoomed into my kitchen where I stopped and hovered, commenting to myself that I needed a decorative 'fan of peacock feathers' to hang on my wall, and further adding that I also need to paint the wall 'gold'.  At the very moment of these thoughts, a large fan of colorful peacock feathers appeared right in front of me and yes, the wall turned into a brillant and shining gold.  I was actually quite pleased with myself!

I then noticed that the refrigerator door was open as the light was shining through the crack; upon closer inspection, the door was jammed open with a refrigerator magnet.  I stopped, or hovered rather, to fix this small problem.  When I did, however, the act apparently required an ‘arm’ (which I did not have, being that I was a sphere of light), and at that very thought, I indeed had ‘an arm’ but was also immediately ‘descending’ to the ground!  I guess by creating an arm, I was now “reduced” to my usual projected body double.  

Very disappointed, but not to be thwarted, I stood in the doorway of my kitchen, and facing down the hallway (I assumed a Superman like flying stance!!!!) I attempted another take-off!  Like a little child, I said out loud, “I want to do it again!”  

This desire was to no avail, however, as I began to feel the sound of “The Thunder” rising up through my body from the soles of my feet.  (I recognized the “The Thunder” because I have heard it before.) Interpreting the sound of thunder, I realized that my fun was over—I was being sent back to bed!!!  

It was truly as though I were a child, being caught in an instance of harmless childhood mischief, and sent off to bed by a very loving yet firm parent, with a loving pat on my behind and a muss of my hair.  I then awoke in my bed, back in my physical body, laying on my side.

This was a very life changing experience for me, and whenever I think about it, I am reminded of the complete and utter joy and freedom of the experience.  There is truly nothing like it!   The down side?  Well, now that I have experienced this, just being here on this plane, ‘stuck’ in this physical body, can really be a drag sometimes.  I have experienced a lot more frustration with being here, and sometimes I can even become a bit depressed and ‘homesick’.  I always wish I could just be ‘my real self’ again!

Beth
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