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51  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Life beyond physical Death on: May 11, 2006, 02:13:28
patelvipulk,

You have posted several things that I would like to address:  
Quote
Are everyone born with the same level of sins?
Quote
I am more familiar with Hindu beleifs in which everyone is born wit hcertain level of ignorance. ( based on Karmas of past lives) ... that everyone has limited ignorance whihc can be removed by finite efforts and after all ignorance about self ( Complete surrender of EGO or "I am the doer" ness to GOD) is removed, whatever is experinced is GOD.
Quote
In most Eastern relegions, creator and cration are non-seperate..


I am not a Christian, but I have been studying Christianity for years, and I would say that to the best of my knowledge, they do not put that much thought into their current doctrines.  Since you do not know much about Christianity, the best way to answer your questions is to "recap" the whole.  Here goes -- The Christian Story 101: as Beth understands it grin

Originally, Adam and Eve (the very first humans) lived in a perfect paradise. Everything they needed was provided for them by God. This was very good! In this paradise, they could do and eat anything they wanted -- except one thing: they were not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. With the exception of that one prohibition, all of paradise was theirs to totally enjoy.

One day a snake came along and told them that there was even more to be had -- that they could actually be like God himself!!! This was VERY tempting!!!  Even though this required her to eat of the ONE TREE that God had forbidden them to eat from, Eve decided to do it anyway. This was a very bad thing for her to do, because she did not become like God at all! All she did was disobey God.  By listening to the snake, Eve (woman) originally brought sin into the world, but Adam (man) willingly followed along with sharing in her sin. Because of their sin (original sin), God was very unhappy with them. Their punishments included being banned from paradise, being made to have babies and to have to feed themselves without God providing them with all of their food.

From that moment on, all humans (who were born of sinful people) were automatically born with sinful natures. They had to work for their survival and the more the world populated with new humans, the more sin was unleashed into the world.

God eventually decided he didn't like it that his creation was so full of sin, so he totally destroyed the world by water at one time, giving all future issue of humanity to one faithful man named Noah. Ultimately, that plan didn't work out! Sin just appeared once again through the sons of Noah's sons.

God then tried a more pragmatic approach: He tried to get humanity to overcome sin in other ways, e.g. through divinely appointed judges, kings and prophets. Of course, humanity really liked their sinfulness and so the judges were not that effective, the kings liked their sin too much as well, and the prophets, well...no one wanted to listen to them.  So, God needed a new plan.

This new plan was to divide himself into three parts, one part remained as God, one part remained as spirit, and the other part was born into the flesh of humanity.  The latter of these parts was Jesus.

In a quick recap, until God was born as Jesus, the world was in the clutches of a sinfulness that they could not seem to overcome by themselves, so God appeared to them as his own only begotten son.

As a human, God/Jesus was able to walk and talk with humans in the hopes that they would listen to reason from his very own mouth. He taught them what sin was all about, and how they shouldn't be living in sin because when they died, they would die for all time. If they would just listen to him, and turn away from sin, they would live forever. Some listened to him at the time, but many more did not.

God/Jesus also tried performing miracles to show them his power, and a lot more of the people joined him because of this, but still, many more had a lot of doubt. Especially the religious authorities of the day.

So, God/Jesus decided that the only way that humanity would recognize him as himself (the One True God) he would have to shed his human flesh and appear to them in his spiritual form. To do this, he had to die. Since he could not take his own life (that was a sin) he made one of his disciples betray him to the authorities so they would put him to death.

With this death, not only would they be able to see him in his spiritual form, but when he died he decided he would remove all sin from those that had believed in him.

So, his disciple (Judas) did indeed betray him, the authorities (the Jewish priests) did indeed have him killed, and he (God/Jesus) did indeed "rise again" three days later, appearing to his disciples in his spiritual form before returning to heaven. Before he returned to heaven, he decided not to abandon his believers, so he left the third part of himself with them, the Holy Spirit. This latter part would take over where Jesus had left off.  

From that point on, sin still lived in the world -- but people that choose to believe that all of these events actually happened "are saved" from their sinfulness for all time. They may still sin -- but they are immediately forgiven. As an added bonus, these same people will live with him in heaven throughout eternity after the world comes to an end and all people either pass/fail the final judgment.

This is basically what most Christians today believe (except CFT's Christianity.) It took hundreds of years, however, for all of this stuff to be worked out through Church teachings.

Now, to address your questions directly: Interestingly enough, one of the earliest Christian Church scholars (my personal favorite), Origen of Alexandria (185-254 c.e.), who was instrumental in getting the young Christian religion off the ground, held some notions that DID NOT make it into mainstream Catholic Tradition. You will probably find them quite interesting as well!!!

One of these things was that "ignorance" was the "greatest of all sins."  While everyone was born into sin (ignorance), it was up to each individual person to abolish their sinfulness through "knowledge." It was through education and learning to "Know Thyself" that they could turn their lives around and abolish evil from their lives.

In the process of obtaining knowledge about themselves, everyone had the potential to "apprehend God" and were bestowed with a "chrism/anointing" from God through the Holy Spirit.  This made it possible for anyone to become a "Christ -- an anointed one -- a Messiah," IF they were willing to undergo the intense studies and the processes that were necessary!  Part of this process was to "totally surrender your personal will" over to "the will of God."

With what you have written about Eastern beliefs, it sounds very similar!!! It is also interesting to note that Origen also believed in reincarnation (as did most all early Christians) as well as Jesus being the "Logos" which allowed God to be an active participant everywhere in the universe. In other words, with God/Jesus as the Logos, the creator and his creation were no longer separate!!! smiley  

Of course, the bad news is that our wonderfully enlightened Origen of Alexandria was ultimately branded a heretic, excommunicated from the Church (post-mortem) and all of his teachings were banned from the Catholic Church's Doctrines!!! Especially his teachings on reincarnation and his teachings that everyone could become "A Christ"!!!:shock:

So, maybe original Christianity was much more like Eastern religion and over time the Catholic Church decided that they didn't much like the eastern ideas. The Church was all powerful back then, so they could do pretty much whatever they wanted. And they did!!

I know for a fact, that in many other ways, Catholic Christianity and original Christianity are not very much alike at all! I guess I can add this eastern influence to that list!!:razz:

Thanks patelvipulk!!!
~Beth
52  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Letter to President Bush on: May 10, 2006, 04:24:00
Are you serious runlola??? :question:
53  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Letter to President Bush on: May 10, 2006, 03:58:50
CFT,
Quote
The problem I had with it is that it adressed too many issues,
I thought that too (about mid-way through the letter) but...after some thought, I could see where ALL of these issues are quite related, in that, he consistently and clearly "calls Bush on his actions" regarding those issues by holding them up in constrast to his profession of being a Christian.  

In other words, instead of "What would Jesus do?" per se, this guy is obviously asking Bush "What should he be doing, IF he is truly a Christian?" There is definately the implied undertone of Bush's religious allegience being questioned.

As to grouping all people as Christians, I must disagree; he specifically states that "hundreds of millions of people" are both Christian and Muslim and "millions" (notice he doesn't use the word Jewish) "follow the teachings of Moses." Surprisingly, he then tries to unite "all three" of them through their all being "monotheists" (page 13.) There is definately the implied undertone of religious superiority for the "religion's of the book."

I am not sure why you think that his grievances became true because of the war in Iraq; the whole WMD fiasco is just one more grievance on his extensive list. Iraq is not what is motivating him to write this letter. Rather it is the fact that the US is going after Iran for their nuclear experimentation.

While he obviously left out the bit about the Africans being persecuted by the Muslims, he--in no way--covered ALL of the global issues at hand. He cannot--he is blind to many such atrocities, just like Bush is. IMO, their monotheistic/male dominated religions prevent them from seeing a great many travesties in this world, e.g. just to name one of many--aid workers in Africa molesting young girls: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4983440.stm

I feel safe in assuming that he is also being hypocritical in that there is surely proverty and unemployment in his country as well!

Please do not think that I am in favor of this guy at all: I DO NOT agree with his solution, or his religious politics/government.  

I am just in agreement with his critique of Bush, and thought the letter was very interesting because his candor was very surprising. He is really trying to force Bush to take a look in the mirror.

Quote
I guess he didn't get the memo that Pres. B. doesn't listen to anyone!

Or the addendum to the memo that explained that even if he did, Pres. B would never be able to read someone else's opinion for 18 WHOLE PAGES!! wink

I also thought is was interesting that he hints at a conspiracy of 9-11 and further implies that the Holocaust never happened. shocked
54  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Summoning spirits: deceit of the devils on: May 10, 2006, 00:49:22
Yes! Great post Leyla! grin

Thanks!
~Beth

p.s.
Quote
I didn't really write anything but it took me forever just to get the boxes in the right places!  
:rotfl: CFT!!!
55  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Letter to President Bush on: May 10, 2006, 00:42:27
Hey all,

At the risk of moving too much into the political realm, I am starting a thread regarding the letter sent to President Bush from President Ahmadinejad of Iran.

I think it is an excellent example of how the impact of religion cannot be ignored as a major factor in what is going on in the world today.

Moreover, it is clear from this letter that all three of the biblical religions are going to have to "face off" sooner or later...with each other and with the rest of the world. It also looks like "sooner" is going to have to be the case.

In response to the letter, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice dismissed it as “a diversionary tactic,” saying: "It isn't addressing the issues that we're dealing with in a concrete way."

I just read the letter, and while he definitely returns again and again to the topic of religion (primarily holding Bush to his profession of being a Christian), the way that Ahmadinejad actually “addresses the issues that we are dealing with” from his perspective are quite clear and very concrete.  

In fact, and this is a positive aspect, as far as “addressing the issues” themselves, I don’t know how he could have gotten any more concise!

As a solution to all of our problems, however (and this is where the negative comes in), he is calling for "global unity" under a "biblically based monotheistic banner."

If you all can take a little extra time to read the whole thing, I would really like to know what you think...If you are interested in the state of religion in the world today, then it is definately worth the read.

Here are the links from NPR (National Public Radio):
 
PDF version of the letter itself from NPR:
http://www.npr.org/documents/2006/may/ahmadinejad_letter.pdf


The NPR story:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5392883


~Beth
56  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / A question for Beth. on: May 05, 2006, 23:56:25
Quote from: CFTraveler
It is a sad idea, but I think a great number of people would rather have someone make the decisions for them than to think for themselves.


That's religion in a nutshell CFT!!!   grin

In addition, I believe it was Karl Marx that said "religion is the opiate of the masses." This is, unfortunately, all too true as well...

~Beth
57  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Re: A question for Beth. on: May 05, 2006, 01:08:50
Quote from: Donal
The church has had a major influence on matters for almost 2,000 years now. However 500 years ago if people spoke out they would be killed, but nowadays people can do it freely. Though the church still those have high connection in academia, goverment, etc.

How much do you think the church has lost influence since it's peak of influence, and how long do you reckon Christianity will be around for?


As you can imagine, I have given this very thing a GREAT DEAL of thought!! wink

I can easily see how the church was able to gain the control it did for many of those 2,000 years. Most everyone was illiterate, so when "officials" came knocking on your door and told you that if you didn't believe a certain way, that they would take you in and punish you -- to death if needs be -- it instilled an immediate sense of "sure, what do YOU want me to believe!" into society at large.

Until recently, I could not see how the church still got away with what it did. We are not an illiterate world anymore. People are free to think for themselves, and public burnings, lynchings and other public tortures are no longer allowed. Yet, I looked around and people who are quite intelligent in other areas of life, still held firm to the irrational beliefs that the church maintains.

That was until recently. I now know how they do it: whenever something threatens the power of the religion, all it has to do is come out with a new dogma that preaches against it!

Case in point, more and more people are becoming quite educated, and as a result are leaving the church by the thousands. In response to this mass-desertion, the "new dogma" is to preach against "intellectualism"!!!!  "Faith" they say, "is not an intellectual endeavor" and that "intellectuals" will try to make you "stray from your faith" by asking you to explain those things that should remain "mysteries of God."  "Intellectualism" is the new "weapon of Satan" to try and overthrow the gospel.

So, in answer to your question, I don't know how long this insanity is going to continue, but I will say that where I live, people hold these beliefs VERY STRONGLY, so it will probably take some kind of COLLOSAL event to change their minds.  What that will be, I have no idea!!!  I mentioned in another thread that it may take UFO's entering our atmosphere to "wake them up" but now that I think about it, they will probably just "shoot first" and "explain later" that the UFO's are "Satan's Spaceships"!!!!

~Beth
58  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Different Christian Beliefs on: May 02, 2006, 23:08:10
:confused: Well...I did post that didn't I?Huh :confused:

How about this Ruy...go slowly.

Ask only one, or just a couple of related questions at a time.

Surely you can see where your post is a bit too much???

~Beth
59  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Different Christian Beliefs on: May 02, 2006, 03:50:57
To all Christian believers,

Since I have been rightly chastised for trying to "lump all Christians" into the same stereotype, please share here your own brand of the Christian message.

This thread is to share why and how your Christian belief is different from the most conservative position--which most of us are very familiar with.

For instance, my error came with a particular topic: Sex.  Please explain your Christian based attitudes toward sex.  How about toward birth control? Toward women in general?

Another good detail to include is your position on the eucharistic meal, aka, The Lords Supper. If your view is transubstantiation, i.e., magical transformation of bread and wine into Christ's body and blood, explain how you understand this to occur. Or if this ritual is only a symbol, how does it fit into your overall belief and practice?

How about hell, pergatory and the afterlife?

And most especially for this forum, how does your Christian belief support or discourage astral investigation, or other topics that this forum addresses?

Certainly include any other beliefs that differ from the well-known conservative beliefs that you would like to share with us.

Please do not argue with one another over the differences. This thread is for information purposes only.

All members may be able to learn something from this information, even if not Christians by faith.

Also, if any non-Christians have questions regarding the religion that they have never understood, ask away! (But BE NICE about it!)

Knowledge is a good thing.
~Beth

p.s. Please do not quote long verses of scripture; just paraphrase and cite the pertinent scripture. We can all look it up for ourselves!

p.s.s. No sermons please!! Just talk to us...
60  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / What religion are you? on: May 01, 2006, 23:36:08
Quote from: Nay
Hey Beth!  Thanks for the list. smiley  So the Gnostics believe in one God, right?


Actually...no! grin

This is one of the main reasons that "Gnostics" were deemed as heretical to the Roman Catholic Church.  Also, what "we" now term "Gnostics" were not just one group or sect; there were actually quite a few!

Most Christian Gnostics were dualistic/polytheistic, if we want to term it as such, in several different ways:

One group that I know of worshipped both a male and a female deity. I don't think that they even tried to roll this dualism into two different aspects of the ONE God, like Catholicism did with the Trinity.  For whatever it is worth, this was actually a pretty cool group: both men and women were priests and deacons and the women could actually serve and perform the ritual for the eucharistic meal. Needless to say, the Roman Catholic Church did not like any of this one bit!!!  shocked  Believe it or not, it is also interesting to note that they did not have one designated "head of the church"--other than Christ; they would actually draw lots to see who would perform the rituals at the next gathering! Pretty democratic if you ask me!!:wink:

Other various Gnostic groups incorporated quite complex divine heirarchies complete with demi-gods and goddessess, also known as "archons" with the main kahuna God placed so high that he/she/it was not even involved with this physical world. They also developed very large "angelologies" and "demonologies" that would war amongst themselves, or wreak havoc on humanity whenever they took a notion~

Personally, the polythesistic tendencies is where I have to split from "Gnosticism proper" because I do not think that GOD has a personifiable gender or means of adequate description at all.  I do, however, like the Gnostic idea that "knowledge" is the highest and best way to obtain "salvation" and to glean whatever knowledge we can is to bring us that much closer to obtaining knowledge about "God."

~Beth
61  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / What religion are you? on: May 01, 2006, 04:22:22
Welllll.....I don't follow a religion at all, and Donal, unless I am mistaken, being an Agnostic isn't actually a "religion" either. Religions usually have some sort of system attached to them that sets a particular standard, or doctrine, for that religious belief.

Here is a rundown and definitions of some standard western choices:

Thesism [from the Grk Theos] is the belief in God.

Atheism from the Greek "a" (without) and "theos" (God) is the doctrine or belief that there is no God

Monotheism believes that there is only One God. This very specific type of theism is the basis of all three major western religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Polytheism believes in more than one God, and is usually associated with the further designation "paganism."

Deism [from the Latin Dei] is similar to theism by believing in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason. It is said that some of the founding fathers of the USA were Deists, e.g., Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin.

Gnosticism from the Greek gnosis "knowledge"; a belief system that flourished in Hellenistic culture. Gnostics held that the closest that humanity could come to knowing anything about God was to obtain "knowledge" of as such as possible. Through knowledge of the physical world, it became apparent to Gnostics that the physical world was just a chaos of dying matter, and thus evil, and that the spiritual world was both ordered and eternal, and thus the only and highest good.

Agnosticism from the Greek "a" (without) and "gnosis" (knowledge) is the philosophical view that while there may be a God, we cannot know anything about it, so the matter is actually irrelevant to physical life.

Seeker
is someone who cannot say what one believes at the time, and thus is usually on a search for their own truth.

These pithy definitions are, of course, far from saying all there is to say about any one of them.

I don't really fit into any of these categories, but I guess would I lean more toward Gnosticism than any other; even then it is not an exact match! I have always had my own brand of belief!! wink

~Beth
62  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / More Contradictions in Religion... on: April 30, 2006, 20:32:18
Since this thread is up to 6 pages, it is a good time to lock it down for future reference and start another one for new or renewed discussions.

~Beth
63  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / More Contradictions in Religion... on: April 30, 2006, 20:30:42
Ryuji, et al,

Please accept my apology for the nonsense between me and Mustardseed.  We have being doing this off and on for several years. I know I should just ignore him, but sometimes I take the bait he dangles...

As always, I take full responsibility for my posts, and with that comes the full knowledge that the "absurd dance with Mustardseed" doesn't look very good on me and most importantly, is not fair to other members...!!  Again, my sincere apologies...

~Beth
64  Astral Chat / Welcome to News and Media! / Crocodile attacks chainsaw on: April 30, 2006, 17:35:45
:hearts:
BUT HEROS STILL EXIST!!
Another headline:



PACK OF DOGS ATTACK CROC IN FLORIDA

http://www.jonco48.com/blog/dogsvscrock.jpg

~Beth
65  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / More Contradictions in Religion... on: April 30, 2006, 17:16:05
Quote from: Mustardseed
Ahh what will the future bring, what insults cutting remarks and slights you will be sending my way shocked


I said: "Cut it out Mustardseed."  We have been doing this same dance for years now.

You know that I only send you cutting remarks after you have attacked my person first.

You attack my academic knowledge when I post something that you disagree with or do not understand, and then I counter-attack your bull-headedness and intellectual laziness. (You have only recently added this whole passive-aggressive thing to your biography.)

We have a long history of such nonsense, of which we are both guilty and which I tire of it much quicker these days.

Again...Let's get back to the topic at hand...Contradictions in Religions...

~Beth
66  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / More Contradictions in Religion... on: April 30, 2006, 17:05:00
Quote from: gdo
An uneducated but devout person may reach a point of inspiration and understanding that an educated person may not have reached by reason alone.  Each may end up disagreeing or dismissing each other out of hand.

I  think that this happens quite often.


This is so very true gdo. I was one of these uneducated but devout persons for many years. I had an inspired understanding from childhood of what the NT message was--but it didn't agree with the other followers of my faith.

I did not go to college until late in life: I was a 35 year old college freshman. I had struggled with the religion of my upbringing all of my life. I made the decision and the committment to study the bible, to learn the languages of the bible, so I could ascertain for myself whether or not "my inspired understanding" was indeed true or not.

I am now 47 years old and I have, since my initial entrance into college, learned more than I could have possibly imagined back then.

In essense, my inspiration came first and my application of academic knowledge followed much later.

I know that going to college is not something that everyone can do--and even those that do go to college cannot justify majoring in religion alone. Usually college is for preparing one for a "practical profession"!!! I had to, however, use the opportunity to address something that had bothered me since I was a little girl.

I did use the opportunity to do so and now I attempt to share with others here--and elsewhere--all the many things that I have learned.

I feel that this is the best that I can do.

~Beth
67  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / More Contradictions in Religion... on: April 30, 2006, 05:30:58
Mustardseed,

Now you are showing definate signs of passive-aggressive disorder:

Definition:
Passive-aggressive personality disorder is a chronic condition in which a person seems to passively comply with the desires and needs of others, but actually passively resists them, becoming increasingly hostile and angry.

Cut it out Mustard...

~Beth

It's time to MOVE ON...Let's get back to the topic of Contradictions in Religions...

~b
68  Astral Chat / Welcome to News and Media! / Boycott Da Vinci Movie? on: April 30, 2006, 05:18:37
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: I have to laugh at the irony of this whole thing :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Once upon a time, sometime around the beginning of the 2nd century of the current era, some fictional writings were floating around Alexandria Egypt and the greater Ancient Near Eastern World.

Some people began to believe that these stories were REAL HISTORY--that the events depicted in the writings actually happened, and that the characters in the stories were REAL PEOPLE.

Afterall, the Romans, the Greeks, the Jews, Herod, Ptolemy, Persia, Egypt and Babylonia were all mentioned in the writings and they were real right? So with this as a given, then all the rest of what was written must have been true as well...

Because of this total misunderstanding--taking FICTIONAL writings to be HISTORICAL--over the course of two thousand years, a mega-religion developed based upon these fictional writings that oppressed countless peoples, suppressed true history, killed unimaginable numbers of people in its name, and has held back intellectual and rational progress from the minds of people around the world ever since.

This mega-religion embedded itself so deeply into the global consciousness, that despite the fact that no historical evidence exists that any of the events happened, or that any of the characters actually ever existed, that even 21st century people totally believe the stories to be real, and will fight to the death over their TRUTH.

Now, this is where the irony comes in:

A new work of fiction is created in the 21st century--based upon the mega-religion's texts--that also mentions REAL THINGS like Rome, Paris, the Vatican, the Pope, the Templar Knights and Leonardo Da Vinci, and this mega-religion is having a major holier-than-thou temper tantrum about the whole thing because it is making "their people" question "their faith" that is only made possible because of fictional writings!! shocked

In essence: Dan Brown's book is a DOUBLE FICTION.

I would say that for Christianity, the "chickens have actually come home to roost!"
 :chicken:  :chicken:  :chicken:  :chicken:  :chicken:  :chicken:  :chicken:  :chicken: :chicken: :chicken: :chicken:

~Beth

p.s. I don't often allow myself to give my honest and personal opinion...but...I was in the mood tonight.  cool
69  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Trucks on: April 29, 2006, 20:42:27
shocked  Wow!

Have you thought about offering dream interpretation as a serious sideline activity??  

That was actually quite good cainam_nazier!

Thanks! grin
~Beth
70  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / More Contradictions in Religion... on: April 29, 2006, 20:28:27
Mustardseed,

Well, your post is an interesting turn of topics. Instead of giving your opinion about the discussion underway, you have, for some reason, tried to make "me" the issue. That is not what this thread, or this forum is all about. You have done this before...what makes you want to do that?

The only reason that I can think of, is that you disagree with my posts, but you cannot refute the points that I am making, so you try to "refute me personally" instead.

This just makes you look bad in the end, even though you try really hard to prevent this from happening when you say repeatedly that you don't wish to "offend me."

When you say something that is offending to someone and then say that "you don't mean to offend" you are psychologically trying to manipulate the situation in an attempt to excuse you from your own insulting behavior.

In other words, you are trying to diminish me personally with your negative points, e.g, that my academic background and level of intelligence is a negative influence to this forum, while at the same time you are trying to make yourself "a positive influence" by assuring me you do not wish "to offend me" while you are doing just that!

Religious Conservatives use this abnormal psychological tactic all the time to defend their irrational and hate-filled doctrines and dogmas. Like when they tell gay people that they are an abomination in the eyes of God, and that they will surely burn in hell for it, but that "as Christians" they "will love them anyway."  rolleyes  

Compassionate Conservative Christians: Hateful Judges wrapped in Loving Robes.

As to the issue currently being discussed on this thread, I am not the one trying to put God into a box. In fact, I am doing my level best -- not just here on the AP, but in all the work that I am doing -- to liberate God from all the boxes that humanity has built.  My most recent posts are pointing out why we cannot define God without building such a box.

"Language" in general and "certain religions" in specific are the "very rigid" structures that prohibit us in our understanding of, and our ability to discuss "God" and our astral experiences--not me. Further, we are not limited by the academic training or intelligent thinking that teaches us that our systems are not adequate to address the totality of the human experience.

In fact, I wish we did have the language capability that would make all of this easier, and moreover, I wish that our "religions" would encourage the exploration of God, instead of mandating prohibitions for doing so.  

And finally, I am a referee Mustardseed.  If you will remember, I was asked to be a moderator in the religion section because of my education--not in spite of it. Trust me when I say that as a moderator, I am not allowed to say a lot of things that I would really like to say sometimes...so "my personal opinions" are actually quite rare on this forum...

~Beth

p.s. If you think that it is in the best interest of this forum that I no longer remain in a referee capacity, please feel free to PM Adrian and ask for my termination.
71  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Trucks on: April 29, 2006, 04:33:17
Quote from: kai wren
I'd personally interpret that in one of two ways.

1) The second truck represents a better self, but you feel afraid of it in some way, but know that you must attain this better self somehow, despite the risks/danger to your current self/life.

2) The second truck could also represent a relationship which you know could be dangerous or wrong for you, but you desire to keep with it or start it regardless, both dreams seem to have an element of this danger about them, so on some level I'd say you fear it, but the inevitability of it implies that you also strongly desire it. Whatever it is.

Or I could just be making stuff up Tongue


kai wren,

The first one sounds reasonable, given what my friend told me last weekend. The second suggestion may be a relationship with my work, or perhaps, on a personal level I am afraid to let anyone in on an intimate level because it might "blow up" in my face???  (I am certainly "gun-shy" when it comes to love relationships!!! :confused: )

Thanks for the insight! It really helps to get other people's opinions!!

~Beth
72  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Trucks on: April 29, 2006, 04:28:12
Quote from: CFTraveler
Here's my 'inexpert' interpretation:
The first truck, pretty much wreaks havoc, doesn't stop to help, but there is a feeling of guilt-
The second truck caused you to stay with it to see if you could help- you were anticipating trouble.
Provided the trucks are metaphors for you- you are engaging in something you don't feel good about- things are 'getting away from you' - runaway train style-
You see something bigger or worse, with larger potential for disaster (fuel tanker) but are preparing to 'take care' of it- This time the desire to help (positivity) overrides the original act or attitude.
Your nurturing nature is overcoming the other (destructive?) nature?
 :dont-know:


In the dreams, I never felt like I was personally being compromised, but that events were taking place that I had no control over at all. I was not personally involved in either wreck, but was a bystander or witness to the wrecks instead.  I also really wanted to help in both cases.

Because of the work that I do, I am in constant tension with religious issues and situations. Religion is a pretty big entity in our world; maybe I am feeling like I want to help something that is so much bigger than me and yet, I am seeing with my own "eyes" that there is really nothing that I can do except "be there"...Huh

hmm....I don't know either!! :dont-know:

I will continue to think on this...but thanks for all the input!!! grin

~Beth
73  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Trucks on: April 29, 2006, 04:15:39
Quote from: Nay
Quote from: Beth
What about the second truck though? I knew instictively that it was flammable fuel and that it might "blow" after it had turned over--even though it never did in the dream--but I still felt compelled to stay with it.
 Ego?  And maybe it goes to show that Ego and Self are both very large?

And thanks! grin


hmmm...that's an interesting observation. In contrast, however, a very good friend of mine told me just last weekend that I needed to strengthen my ego, that I needed to develop more self-confidence and courage for the things that I need to do in the future. Maybe the dreams are showing me a fear that I have that my ego will get too big...Huh

I will think on this...

Thanks,
~Beth
74  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Trucks on: April 28, 2006, 22:36:19
Great insight Nay!! I hadn't thought of that angle!!   grin

What about the second truck though? I knew instictively that it was flammable fuel and that it might "blow" after it had turned over--even though it never did in the dream--but I still felt compelled to stay with it.


~Beth
75  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Life beyond physical Death on: April 28, 2006, 13:05:18
Arnold van Gannep:

Rites of Passage

Publisher: University Of Chicago Press (July 15, 1961)
Language: English
ISBN: 0226848493


Victor Turner:

The Ritual Process

Publisher: Aldine Transaction; Reprint edition (December 31, 1995)
Language: English
ISBN: 0202011909

I just looked it up and both of these books can be purchased on Amazon.com There are also other books on this same topic, written by subsequent scholars that apply this theory to other aspects of our lives, such as the theater experinence, e.g., plays and movies (probably both the participation in and the viewing of movies and plays.)

A good example of liminality is found in the mythical stories of the "Hero's Journey."  From the moment that the "to be hero" begins his/her quest they have "stepped into liminal space." Betwixt and between their normal reality and a future reality that will reflect a drastic and undeniable change in their lives, they will encounter all kinds of strange and unusual things in order to be able "to accomplish their mission." Examples of such hero journey's are still found in modern stories and movies all the time. Some classic examples are the Wizard of Oz and Luke Skywalker in the first made of the Star Wars movies.

I like the Wizard of Oz example because Dorothy actually 'leaves Kansas' and 'goes into another realm of existence' for a time. If you have seen the old movie, the producers actually highlight this liminal space where the beginning and end of the movie were filmed in black-and-white with the 'adventure' in the middle being filmed in color, and her return to Kansas was in black-and-white again! The color parts highlight the liminal space that Dorothy was in while on her heroine journey. grin

~Beth

p.s. I like to think of this liminal space as being an apt description of what it is like for us to travel in the astral... wink
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