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1101  World Cultures, Traditions and Religions / Welcome to World Cultures, Traditions and Religions! / Universism on: February 02, 2005, 13:47:17
Quote from: beavis
They claim the following is absolutely true for all people...
Quote
II. There is no absolute Truth that applies to all people; ultimate knowledge of the nature of existence cannot be communicated, it can only be reasoned or experienced personally.


Anything can be communicated if the people (or smarter species) communicating are smart enough.


 Can experiences themselves be communicated in your opinion?

 To quote Huxley:

"    We live together, we act on, and react to, one another; but always and in all circumstances we are by ourselves. The martyrs go hand in hand into the arena; they are crucified alone. Embraced, the lovers desperately try to fuse their insulated ecstasies into a single self-transcendence; in vain. By its very nature every embodied spirit is doomed to suffer and enjoy in solitude. Sensations, feelings, insights, fancies—all these are private and, except through symbols and at second hand, incommunicable. We can pool information about experiences, but never the experiences themselves. From family to nation, every human group is a society of island universes. "

Regarding experience. We filter everything we perceive through our current life experience to date. We do not see the experience, we see our interpretation of it. When we communicate it using symbols (words) it passes through our belief systems (ego, perception, prejudices, desires etc) and through the lips. The receiver then filters it through his/her own belief system and stored it based on their life knowledge to date (which might or might not contain first hand experience of the event being passed.) Even language itself is not an absolute, it has a common enough core to be useful in general. But each of us attribute different feelings, experiences to words. So it is not a complete form of communication. Disregarding the language aspect. How can an experience itself be communicated when it cannot truely be communicated even with words?

 I have to say i'm with Frank on this one. There are no absolutes.
1102  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Strange Projection on: February 02, 2005, 13:15:33
When I encounter the vibrational state, I usually try and force myself out. Today I actually learnt that is the wrong way to go about it. Although sometimes I did get out, more often than not I would kill the vibrations. Today I relaxed and breathed deeply, this increased them 10 fold and gave me a high pitched whirring in my head.
 Anyway, today's projection was different to any I've had before. Lucidity was high. When I sat up out of body I was in a red car driving through an unknown town. There was a large open skylight in the roof, and looking up there were very strange trees hanging over the road. They had wooden effigies of humans in them, not just humanlike shapes, but they were perfect in every detail.
 At a crossroads I got out of the car to go exploring. At first everything seemed unreal, like a high level computer generation. I decided to go flying and found myself in a forested area at night. There was a celebration going on, on top of a huge building. I decided to fly up, but I kept encountering ceilings (areas I couldn't fly above). Luckily these were near edges so I could grab them, pull myself up and fly to the ledge above. When I got to the top I hid in the shadows, there was a large audience whose attention was centered on a podium, they were there to celebrate someone/thing.
 Not long after I was seen by a woman who grabbed me. I struggled to the edge of the building and with effort floated off. But she was still holding on to me. She became quite terrified at the experience, and I told her I was worried I couldn't fly with her weight on me. I managed to float us both down into the jungle. She lived in a complex in the jungle, which she informed me had a lot of traps which could kill people. She guided us through a lot of small structures, which all had a strange red crystalline growth on the ceiling, and a small purple laser seemed to flick out at us as we passed under.
 We finally got her to her building (Which was one of many similar ones - the others trapped decoys too) and we said out goodbyes. I now decided to go home so I started to fly again towards my house. On leaving I saw a police car pull up below me and go to the house I dropped the woman off at, they were looking for a man which the guests at the celebration had seen acting strangely. She looked at me flying away and said nothing. I got back to my house uneventfully.

 I'm not sure what to make of this experience as when I usually pull out of body, I'm in my bedroom.

 Last night I had a strange experience too. I was in an old room with someone I seemed to recognise from life. For some reason I mentioned UFOs and he got increasingly agitated at me, jumping up and demanding to know about them. He had an idea an organisation was keeping knowledge of them away from him. I then found myself in bed, totally paralysed with the vibrations. BUT. My bedroom looked different, I thought I was lying in a class room which looked run down. It took a little while to pull through this dream state to see my bedroom as it was. I also had a form of paralysis which cant be broken. Movement is possible with extreme effort, but you sink back down, still unable to move. So I always give into the paralysis at this stage (very deep trance state?) My girlfriend has seen me in this state, as I guess I was whimpering trying to get enough effort to 'break it.'
 And the night before this I had another strange experience. I was seemingly watching my OBE state from a 3rd person view. (Later that night in a very vivid dream I was a wolf, and with my mate we had some cubs! Quite interesting on the whole Smiley But this is going way OT).
1103  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / Astral Projection in Music on: February 01, 2005, 22:57:55
Led Zeplin - Kashmir.
1104  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Can wave be used for lucid dreaming? on: February 01, 2005, 22:49:45
I've found that heavy wave CD use did aid lucid dreaming. By heavy I mean once or twice a day, every day. I think this was more a side effect of being in a controlled trance state for long periods each day.
1105  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / dream, obe, or ap on: February 01, 2005, 22:47:37
I've experienced similar to this duel vision Smiley I was in bed looking at the ceiling, thinking to myself. Yet at the same time I was in a garden, talking to someone about OBEs with a different visual scene and a different independent consciousness. Hard to explain but in two places at once with two independent consciousness at the same time, both being aware of the other and feeling/seeing/thinking it all at the same time.
1106  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Coupla questions on: February 01, 2005, 01:29:49
Thing 1:
 Sounds like a deeply relaxed state. Body distortion is quite common. I guess this can be attributed to attention taken away from physical stimuli to the extent that the mind fills the 'holes.'

Thing 2:
 Sounds like sleep paralysis and a potential LD or OBE occurance.
1107  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Do drugs impare OBE? on: February 01, 2005, 00:17:44
Drugs do not impair ability to go OBE, as my past is testament to Smiley
  BUT. I know people who take various drugs to achieve OBE, and I feel such a practice is counter-productive. Firstly, there is a complete lack of control. If you don't like the experience, you are stuck with it, or its after effects until you come down.
Secondly, using drugs as a crutch to achieve a foggy uncontrolled OBE is not a long term solution to achieving the OBE state at will. It's effects are not as long lasting either. The discipline I've learnt, and am learning, has radically changed my view of the world (I actually see things differently), with drugs, a different overview usually lasts as long as the high. Perhaps sometimes for a few weeks, but the change is not permanent.
1108  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Why are you so shure that AP is not just a product of your on: January 31, 2005, 17:45:35
In my opinion, I think a person should NOT believe the validity of AP until they achieve it themselves. And even then they should not hold it as fact until they have repeatedly experienced situations which prove it has a validity over that of sheer fantasy produced by a 'meat' brain. Or to put it as Robert Monroe would, turning a belief into a known through repeated  (left brain) experience.
Don't misunderstand me, a person could and should believe AP is possible, but just not hold it as fact until personal proof shows them it is. Taking beliefs as knowns can lead to distorted and untrue belief systems which might be detrimental to AP and progress later on down the line.
1109  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Wave 1 Progress on: January 31, 2005, 01:52:43
I've fallen asleep many times during wave 1, or perhaps a better term would be that I've 'zoned out.' Sort of losing awareness and gaining it back with a jolt a set period along the exercise.
 I'd personal say don't expect anything amazing to happen with the wave 1 series, as always your mileage may vary, but it seems to be an introduction to certain tools like ECB and REBAL.
 I've been using wave 1 for around 4 years now, and so focus 10 is easily achievable. My reasoning for not pushing ahead with the series was that I wanted to lay a solid foundation.
 I have used F10 triggers during OBE practice to great effect.
 Regarding consciousness, my state of awareness in F10 feels just like C1 awareness, but my body is diminished/removed/distorted etc. And I usually see a lot of light when I pop my REBAL. I've progressed on to F12 and have had fantastic results with this expanded state.

 To get back to the point Smiley Try not to use the CDs when really tired, and with repeated experience feeling wired will not effect depth of experience. I'm not sure if it's in the book which comes with wave 1 but Monroe says falling asleep is not really detrimental to the process. Your subconscious will still be taking the CD onboard. I also try to leave an hour or so after drinking tea/coffee before using the CDs, reducing the caffine in my system which might be detrimental to relaxation.
1110  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / Work with chakras really necessary for AP or OBE? on: January 30, 2005, 14:00:30
Quote from: Nay
Hmmm..I never did energy work either before I heard of Robert and I was projecting long before that, albeit spontaneous.....maybe it is just an intent?

Nay


I've often wondered if thats what the energy body truely is. A belief system, which through intent, allows energy to be directed. If that makes sence Smiley
I've also wondered if its only the belief which matters ie structured belief even in the seemingly absured gives a structure to work towards. But thats too much to go into here.

 I'd say energy work is not needed, but doing it facilitiates directing awarness and focus, and aids in gaining trance states/relaxation which in turn are needed to AP. Reading Monroes books shows high frequency of AP can be obtained without needing new age or spiritual concepts.
1111  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Consciousness! / I need Very Very Very, Extremely basic method on: January 29, 2005, 18:54:33
Quote from: astralspinner
Quote
Not any of this meditation and stuff


You're familiar with the saying about wanting to run without learning to walk first?

Projection requires you be in the state between awake and asleep. Meditation puts you in that state. Get a good book on meditation - there's an excellent one by Eric Harrison, if you want a recommendation. . .


If you are talking about Harrisons 'Teach yourself to meditate' I second that recommendation Smiley A book free of dogma, spiritual and religious overtones. Meditation in its purest form.
1112  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Pulse Island! / A New API on: January 29, 2005, 16:23:44
I used to be part of a mailing list which had this idea, although it soon adapted into an astral locale idea so we never really got to try it out Smiley
 I've always wondered what its effectiveness would be though.
1113  Dreams / Welcome to Dreams! / Not so clear dreams. on: January 29, 2005, 16:17:19
Keeping a dream journal and sticking at it will aid amazing dream recall Smiley Too much in some cases. I usually stop recording dreams after a while, as I have to write thousands of words (sometimes even condenced) to record all my dreams from a single nights sleep. I usually pick the journal back up a few months later.
 I also have a lot of dreams which don't really translate into 'baseline' (C1) consciousness. Their ideas and concepts don't make any sence when recalled at baseline. They can be felt or touched upon, but it's like feeling tactile shapes in my head and body. Hard to explain, and makes detailing them impossible Smiley
1114  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Pulse Island! / A New API on: January 29, 2005, 15:59:20
Rather than an isle, or astral locale, I've often wondered if it would be possible to create a 'symbol.' Something quite simple in look and style, but through focus of many, imbue it with the idea of astral projection ie a tool to aid projection through focusing upon. Any state can be re-achieved through the use of triggers, so I wonder if a symbol which is the focus of many would aid AP in a greater way than a personal learned symbol/trigger. Sort of like a permenant becon in the astral whose aid is to provide ease of use to the AP state when focused upon etc.

 Anyone think this would be possible?
1115  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / Extreme Projection Locales on: January 29, 2005, 03:27:37
Quote from: heter
Would it be difficult to get to the moon? I mean if you project at night, couldn't you simply fly to it?


I tried this a few days ago. I started to fly towards it, but it didn't seem to get any closer, so I kept picking up speed. Due to the distance involved I figured I would try and 'teleport' to it instead, reasoning I couldnt cover the distance needed before I had to go back to my body. So I closed my eyes, focused on my destination and 'pulled' myself to it. But when I opened my eyes I have no idea where I was. I seemed to be in rock or something, it was streaked with brown, dark red and orange. These bands seemed to be seen in 3 dimensions all around me.
 I went back to my body not long after - not being able to work out where I had jumped to.
1116  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / astral plane? hmm... on: January 24, 2005, 12:15:21
http
Quote from: anton1

(6) MisterJingo: "I totally agree that astral sight is a creation of the brain" - GREAT! now watch your opinion change as your friends disagree with this statement trying to show that A-sight is a thing on its own.

(7) MisterJingo: "It [sight] only has difference from the other senses because our brains have developed in a way to generate these 'pictures' from this form of input." - huh??? so you are saying this is why sight is different from hearing and taste? hmm. that doesn't make sense, sorry.


 I guess you have never heard of the medical condition synesthesia then. Do a google on it. With this condition people actually physically feel taste, smell sound, see sound etc. It's a documented condition.
 One could assume that this is a relatively rare medical condition where the brain is wired differently in sufferers, but one needs only look at documentation of psychedelic experience where 'psychedelic' doses of a compound create synesthesia effects too. People seeing music, feeling music, tasting it, or smelling sound etc. So it seems we can all bypass this brain catagorisation mechanism which distinguishes sensory inputs from each other. I've even experienced similar during trance-states and meditation.
1117  Astral Chat / Welcome to Astral Chat! / New Moderators on: January 13, 2005, 12:10:24
Welcome Wink
1118  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / astral plane? hmm... on: January 13, 2005, 10:57:09
Quote from: anton1
the reason why i don't believe in AP is not because i know AP is not real. it is because my life experience suggests that this is another lie/misconception like honest politicians or charitable enterpreneurs Smiley i do not have proof, but i have some interesting evidence of that. let me explain...

1. most of you claim to see things while APing. like you get out of your body and see your room and yourself lying in the bed. well, guess what, you can only see things if you have eyeballs, retina, nerves, and all those nice things. they are what make us see things they way we see them. how do you know red is red and blue is blue? because your mind registers the difference between electromagnetic waves it receives from red and blue objects and labels them as those colors. in reality there is no color. there are atoms and waves. the only way to see color is with human eyes (or cat's eyes; but for example snake eyes won't do). therefore the most likely explanation to "astral sight" is that it is a creation of you brain. even if AP is real, you certainly would not see the objects the same way (or even close) while in AP, because you don't have your physical eyes with you Smiley

reading material: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Mach


 Firstly, by what mechanism does the brain distinguish sensory input gained from electromagnetic waves as a colour? Colour is subjective and man made. There are ranges of frequencies which we relate to certain 'ideas' which we call colour. As far as I know, if you have discovered such a mechanism you are the first in the world.

 Secondly, are you talking about the brain or mind? You use both interchangeably, which implies you perceive a difference between them.

 As stated above, colour is not seen by the eyes. The eyes are simply devices which sense photonic data. Have you ever read any journals on external perception and internal visual generation? If so you would know that the eyes take in very little information, basic forms, colours and shapes. Reality as you view it is enhanced a lot by your brain.

 I totally agree that astral sight is a creation of the brain. Sight is a dominant sense in our perception of reality. It only has difference from the other senses because our brains have developed in a way to generate these 'pictures' from this form of input. When we project our brains interpret data in the only way we know how, through the representation of physical viewing (perhaps because it is the dominant sense.) If scientists connected a human brain up to a sonar device, giving them an extra sense, do you think their brain would immediately generate a new form of sensory experience or would it try and fit the data to existing pathways? If you have read into this subject you would have read of blind people who could project, and know that their experience is generated through the sense of touch. Seemingly being able to touch in all directions at the same time.
 Just because things are view along existing neural pathways does not mean AP is false.

Quote from: anton1

2. i made an observation about the kind of people who usually believe AP. now this is going to sound offensive and rude... sorry, but i will say it anyway Smiley all you guys have one thing in common: lack of education. most of the time you hear something you do not need proof. as long as enough other people believe it - you will believe it too. some of the articles i read about AP were hilarious! one guy was concentrating on a candle and questioning himself "what is fire made of?". open a [edit] physics book, the answer is right there!!! lol. there is no real scientific studies about AP, because none of you guys know how to conduct one. sorry. in general, the kind of ignorance about world you demonstrate on these forums is way above average ignorance. once again, this is what i saw on these forums and it is my perception/opinion. don't be mad, please.


 Have you read into any other hobby/area? There would be a range of intelligences there too. What does this point prove? That people who are interested in AP display a standard cross-section of intelligence and academic achievement? If you are basing the premise that most people interested in AP are of a sub-educational standard on a few Internet sites and these forums, then your research is deeply flawed.
 A guy questioning what fire is made of? If he wants to do such a thing let him. Or perhaps we should mock all people who talk in such ways (most poets?)


Quote from: anton1

3. i made another observation about the AP people. this one is kinda ugly too, bear with me please. you all have another thing in common: weak mind. i saw the funniest convo in another topic. it went something like that:

guy1: when APing i can see things very clear
guy2: but can you read a text?
guy1: yes, i can.
guy2: wow! be my mentor please and slap me around for you are so much cooler than me.

as long as a person can speak fast and say mind blowing things - you will follow them anywhere. think about it, this is not your first "spiritual" hobby, is it? you have been used by the opposite sex in the past quite a bit, haven't you? when some1 tries to start a fight with you you say "i don't want to fight" instead of punching him, don't you? most commonly you suppress your fear, not anger, right? you are weak minded, this is why. sorry...


 And they are more groundless assumptions. For a person mocking others academic credentials, and then basing a theory on groundless data is pretty funny.
 I don't wish to divulge personal information here, but I usually do not walk away from fights. So I guess I don't fall into this criteria either.
1119  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Parallel Universes on: January 13, 2005, 10:24:55
I agree. But by what standard are we use to judge a thing irrational? The theory which spawned the technology which built TV's, microwaves, and the internet was considered irrational by a large proportion of the eminent scientists of the day. Even Einstein was not totally convinced of this new area of science (Quantum), even spending a lot of time trying to discredit it. Now we know this area (which was once thought of as irrational) is rational, it helped shape technology and medical science as we see it today. So again, it helps to keep an open mind Smiley
1120  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / OBE motivation on: January 13, 2005, 10:16:19
I always thought of karma as self fulfilling... If you hate someone, that person does not feel your hate, you carry it around in you. If you love someone, you carry around that love in you. People might experience some physical manifestation of your emotional intent. But the intent will be carried and experienced only by you. Sort of like we are our own judge and jury; we are all the victim of our own prejudices. Carrying hate and anger over time isn't a pleasant thing.
1121  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Astral Projection Experiences! / am i worthy of ap on: January 12, 2005, 15:44:19
Quote from: Gandalf
Don't worry Iank, i had the same problem after living in Nottinghamshire for a while.. you need to move up to Scotland like me.. then you will feel much better  wink

Then you will be more than worthy to AP!

Douglas


Hey whats wrong with Nottinghamshire?! I currently live there  Tongue
 Regarding the OP, yes, anyone can learn to project if they put the time in and have the motivation.
1122  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Parallel Universes on: January 12, 2005, 14:24:38
I should state my position: I don't agree with the deterministic view of the universe myself because we do not have enough understanding or information to come to such a conclusion, but we also do not have enough information to say a non-deterministic view is true either.
 I guess my point in arguing was the fact that we should be open to all possibilities, however much we might not like their implications Smiley
1123  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / OBE motivation on: January 12, 2005, 14:20:16
Quote
I think the motivation for OBE is important too. Ask yourself exactly why you want to OBE and be honest with you about it. Why is important.


 Taking this quote of Tayesin from another thread, i'm curious to your motivations for achiving the OBE state.
 I've tried to think of what my motivation is, and to be honest, I don't have any idea. All I know is that from when I first read about OBEs they caught something inside of me. I felt a pull which could get very strong on occasion, to this area. I've been practicing OBEs for around 10 or 11 years now and I still can't define my core motive.
 One possibility is innate curiosity. I read widely and deeply, and am facinated by the workings of everything. But, my interest in the paranormal really stops at OBE. I've read into other areas but none have effected me in the same way, or given me the desire to persue that direction intently.
1124  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / Bordom on: January 12, 2005, 09:43:24
I would also add to astralspinners advice that meditating for long periods is something which comes with practice and experience. You can't expect to sit and meditate for hours when just starting out. 10-15 minutes a day is a good start. If during that period you ever get restless and feel a need to stop, then stop. If you force yourself and become increasingly bored, meditation will turn into a chore.
 I sometime feel boredom too. But that gives me an avenue to explore. Why am I actually feeling the emotion/mental state boredom in the current situation etc.
1125  Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences / Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! / astral plane? hmm... on: January 12, 2005, 09:37:13
Quote from: anton1

MisterJingo: shared hallucination? that's a possibility. though I am sure there is an even simpler explanation. do you talk in your sleep? Wink


That would be a possibility but the people who have seen me when OBE where either not in the same room or on occasion the same building. The reason I discovered they had seen something is because I usually questioned them in the pretense of having a strange dream (Not wanting to divulge such a strange interest.)
 I would usually project and visit someone (documenting the time) and later when checking with the people I visited, on more than one occasion, the person actually saw something strange at that time too.
 An example being when I was OBE and decided to try and pull a female friend OBE too, I wasnt sure if this was possible at the time. In my experience she did go OBE and I showed her how we could move through walls and float. I spoke to her the morning after-wards stating my experience as a 'weird dream' that I'd had.  She froze on me and acted strangely towards me for the rest of the day. Later I bought up the subject again and she told me that she woke up in the night and found a figure bending over her bed reaching towards her, the figure was made of 'black smoke' in her words and she could see through it. She has no interest in the paranormal, or even religion or spiritual subjects, and she has never had an experience which could be called paranormal before or since (in her words.)
 The times of my OBE and her strange experience were the same.

 I have no explanation for the experience, and more was going on than talking in my sleep Smiley And I have no idea how a shared hallucination would work with a friend who I hadn't spoken to for a while in a separate location.
 This is just one experience of many which has led me to believe more is going on than dreaming. I do try to be very objective where OBE is concerned. Also when questioning the person I visited I am careful not to use leading questions, or plant the seed of something strange happening at a certain time.
 I don't expect you to believe what I say, but that's OK as I know it happened.
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