I agree. But so far logical thinking has provided us with what you see around you now (including the PC we are using to discuss) whereas belief and experience which can’t even remotely be consistently shared with others has just brought us personal experiences and little more. I don’t think sciences view is inherently materialistic as much of what science works with today is definitely not material, and was outside the scope of scientists a few hundred years ago.
Certainly I'm not agains logic it's great. What I mean is just that we are dealing with the mind itself here. Maybe i can put it this way: Logic is just a aspect of the mind ( for example feelings, perceptions etc are also part of the mind but are outside of logic) So therefore I suspect that with logical thinking alone we won't understand the mind, it is just my theorie though.
I agree. But this is the same for the view that the mind is more than the brain. It’s a meme which has spread down the ages with nothing to substantiate it (other than personal experience – which is not conclusive in itself) – yet it is used as an argument point.
Well it is not a theorie that the mind is more then the brain, it seems like a fact to me. the brain is matter the mind is Not matter, this two are hard to fit together no matter how you turn it. How can an electric impulse generate a self/mind etc?
What I meant is that we could create an infinite amount of reasons for anything if we don’t require any form of reproducible, substantial proof to back it up. But this doesn’t mean any reason we create has any form of reality outside of ourselves.
I agree. But do include things such as meditation or Buddhism as "science of the mind" it is also reproducible. substantial proof? well maybe not in the way you mean but having dircet experiences in the mind is more substantial to me then any "outside" proof.
I’m not sure I agree with this, as until recently, western culture was no different in believing more duellist views of mind/brain. I think this is partly due to indoctrination of such beliefs (as happens now) and little to no knowledge about the brain at all.
For example, if we had no knowledge of the functions of the brain, I think we all would view consciousness as more than matter produced. Its only the recent cutting edge science of the brain which has made us start to question this.
I agree
If I hadn’t read all the things on neurology that I have (things which have shown their worth through medical procedure saving countless lives), then I would still happily be holding a duellist view of reality. Now I am uncertain, so I question.
I understand. kepp in mind though that we can also put things to good use without really understanding them. what I mean is that we can manipulate things without the need to truely understand them. for example I can create a airplane using the laws of newton. This plane will ( or better probably won't

) fly although the laws used are in fact false. The newton laws are not completly correct the Einstein quations are more correct. So what I try say is that the fact that we understand somethings and put them to good use (e.g. Computer, neuroscience) doesn't mean we truely understand the real essence of them.
I agree. The idea that we are products of our brain is quite horrific really – but I guess I want to learn ‘the truth’ regardless of my fears.
Recently I come to the conclusion that it is maybe not that horrific. Do we really understand what matter is? I don't think so. Current theorie I thinks is strings (consisting of what?!) vibrating in multidimensional space. I wonder what the theorie is in 50 Years..... So in way we do not know what matter actually is so in that way we do not really know what this neurons in the brain actually are. Maybe they indeed produce the mind but maybe the mind and matter are two sides of the same coin. maybe as we learn more we will realize that matter is frozen thought or something like that and the horror will be gone. Just my theorie again.
I somewhat agree. A scientific theory generally has to be reproducible to be accepted as accurate, and if a scientific theory was produced which could explain and reproduce something we once took to be paranormal – would this be science ‘explaining away’ the phenomenon, or would it be science actually finding an explanation other than ‘ours’ for the phenomenon?
if science finds good explanations thats great. I don't think there is science and then there is Paranormal stuff and one destroys the other. there is just one world. as science evolves it will cover more and more paranormal things, thats what I believe and i think that is great. But I think science has to open up. intensify the research in areas like OBE NDE Telephaty with an open mind and our knowledge grow.
I think it comes down to me wondering why, if I have projection experiences, they have to mean life after death, they have to mean I have energy bodies, I have chakras, that I am an inhabitant of an astral world currently inhabiting a belief system to learn lessons etc. I know none of this directly, so why should I just buy into it without question?
True, I agree with you. I don't buy into it that is far certain. But I try to keep an open mind maybe it is true.
(For me at least, it just doesn’t ‘feel’ right). I only experienced ‘the vibrations’ before I read about all this stuff, and it wasn’t until I started to believe about ‘silver cords’ etc that I actually saw them. My experiences before that had nothing of the sort. So it seemed to suggest my increasing belief in these philosophies was actually creating them, rather than them being inherently true.
Very well possible. This may teach that the experiences are greatly influenced by ourselfs. A insight impossible to find with common science but nevertheless very important would you say?
This is why I want to strip away the dogma and unfounded belief (in me at least) and really see what is there – look at things without even deep unconscious programming getting in the way.
I agree. But is seems possible to me that for example the believe in brain, science etc and the doubt in Soul ,Chakras , Astralplaes ect may also shape your experiences and impede any direct knowledge of this things. It is really hard to get a completly open mind (also when projecting) at leats for me it is. I strongly feel that my own fear and believes (which are strongly logic and science based, as I studie physics) compromise my astral experiences. a catch 21 :confused:
regards Tom