"The Truth About 2012" (The Church did WHAT?)

[Rudolph]

A paragraph in Adrian's book,  "The Truth About 2012" caught my eye.

When the Spanish invaded, the Roman Catholic Church ordered that all of these codices, which the church held to be the "work of the devil", be placed in piles and burned before the Mayan people as an example, when they were forced to submit to the Roman Catholic Church.

a. I do not think the Church ordered that all of the codices be burned (otherwise the ones we still have would not exist).
{The author also failed to mention the "Codex Yoalli Ehecatl" preserved in the Vatican Library}

One Bishop Landa is known to have burned 40 codices describing diabolical practices, while no other reports on any significant scale are recorded on this burning of codices being some sort of pervasive practice. Bishop Landa was bent on destroying these books when he came upon a ritual where a young boy was about to be sacrificed. (Even today, recorded ~c1965,  Mayan elders will toss a young boy off a cliff to appease the gods when there is a sizable earthquake).

b. "the work of the devil" referred to the routine ritual sacrifice of thousands of men from sunup to sundown on High Holy Days. (The burning of some codices began shortly after the Conquistadors witnessed the horrendous slaughter of countless human sacrifice victims and the soldiers were intent upon eliminating anything that ordered or instructed anyone in such demonic behavior. This opinion was not merely something which the church held to be the "work of the devil").

c. The Mayan people were not forced to submit to the Roman Catholic Church.

Their society was in headlong decline and what we know as 'ancient Maya' were nearly extinct when the Spaniards arrived.
The native people of the Americas were NOT some brilliant, advanced culture. They were barely developed beyond the Stone Age. They basically had no domesticated animals. They had no real agriculture beyond pushing a sharp stick in the ground and dropping a seed in. That may be because the plow had not been invented because they had no metallurgy (gold was not mined but simply picked up off the ground near certain creeks and rivers and then melted down by dropping it into a really hot fire. Silver and iron can be smelted at similar temperatures but no European observers ever saw this happening. Archeological digs show that "maybe" some sort of smelting was going on around 2000 BC but that art was completely lost over time. Their knowledge of chemistry was nearly zero. They never even figured out how to attach a sail to their canoes.

When will people stop pretending that these were advanced cultures?

[Volgerle]

When will people stop pretending that these were advanced cultures?

Well, we all know: History is written by the winners, I suppose that Landa's and the Catholic accounts are subjective and a highly apologetic views of this aspect of history.

Everybody knows about the atrocities that the Spaniards committed to the indigineous population, not necessarily Mayan since, if remember correctly, they were already gone and extinct by then. (Some esoteric beliefs are that they even collectively ascended to a higher dimension  ). I think it was more the Inca culture and other local peoples that were conquered and affected by the Europeans then, right?

Regarding the Mayas: By all experts they are considered an advanced culture that existed deep in pre-Columbian and pre-historic times. Many 'advanced' cultures (if not all of them!) perished over time, ours might too, so extinction is not a category for 'advancement', in my view.

I'm by far no expert, but didn't they build some or most of the mesoamerican pyramids and did other archealogical feats (if it wasn't the aliens who did it or helped them )? Didn't they leave lots of written stuff, monuments, scuptures, pieces of art? Didn't they have deep knowledge about astronomy? Medicine? I reckon that is normally considered an advanced culture, given the time period this took place (pre-historic).

They might have built these pyramids and have other achievements in certain fields in an early era when the Spaniards or any European high culture did not even exist yet.

I'm not a Wikipedia fan, but here 's what we find there:

"The Maya is a Mesoamerican civilization, noted for the only known fully developed written language of the pre-Columbian Americas, as well as for its art, architecture, and mathematical and astronomical systems. Initially established during the Pre-Classic period (c. 2000 BC to 250 AD), according to the Mesoamerican chronology, many Maya cities reached their highest state of development during the Classic period (c. 250 to 900 AD), and continued throughout the Post-Classic period until the arrival of the Spanish."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_culture

I would call that 'advanced'. 

I think (and it's just my humble layman opinion) that we do not know enough about the Mayans in order to judge them throughout, moreover since generalisations in historic science are never right anway. There are too many variables to be taken into account.

Yes, human sacrifice is a dark chapter, indeed. It makes you wonder how this fits to other achievemnts they certainly had. But who knows if this was not an aberration over a discrete timespan in their (supposedly very long prehistoric / pre-columbian) history? Just speculating though. Who knows.

[Lionheart]

 http://www.authenticmaya.com/maya_culture.htm. The Maya developed a unique society that boasted a rather complex social, political and scientific structure. Mayan research into the fields of mathematics, astronomy and the measurement of time is truly astonishing.
This sounds pretty advanced to me! 

[Xanth]

Forgive me if I make an assumption here... but there's more to being "advanced" than technology.
The Mayans definitely had their smarts. 

[Stillwater]

I think there are a couple clarifying points to make about the Mayans...

First is that they have certainly been deified. They were a brutal and earthly race, just as any classical-age civilization was (our favorites in the western world, the Greeks, were petty, blood-thirsty warlords). We tend to place indigenous people on a pedastal as knowing, peaceful creatures, who lived in harmony with their world; this clearly not true, they were very much like us, with all the same frailties and bad tendancies.

Second is that the Classical Mayans were not one people. There is archeological evidence that the earlier tribes that were responsible for the advancements in mathematics, astronomy, and civil trade, were largely displaced from power by a later sequence of tribes, sweeping across much of Mesoamerica, which brought the strong emphasis on human blood sacrafice and warfare to support it. These bloodthirsty savages, (as opposed to the comparatively more civilized and learned savages that preceded them) were the face that Europeans were greeted with. The people the conquistadors met (although largely other groups like  the Aztecs, as the Mayans were quite in decline by then) were not representative of the height of those cultures.

And yes, the Mayans were aparently tinkle-poor farmers, lol. All evidence seems to suggest they destroyed their soil's fertility through lack of proper-crop rotation; again, at least the later Mayans, who were clearly not height of the brain-trust that culture produced.

That said, what the Mayans achieved is still impressive. Western civilization was built on the foundation of Egyptian knowledge, which was only possible because that culture was presented with a golden period of 1000 years of peace made possible by geography; the Egyptians taught the Greeks almost everything the Greeks ever knew, and this civilization-generating knowledge was held in stasis till it re-surfaced from texts the Ottomans saved till the 12th Century. The Europeans had the Mediterranean sea, which was a gift from the gods for sharing advanced knowledge and developing civilization, and were in contact with a multitude of advanced cultures as they grew. The Mesoamericans somehow developed some fairly sophisticated technologies (chief among these their astronomy) in advanced isolation, so they did do quite a lot with the hand they were dealt.

As for how the Catholic Church treated them, and what precisely happened during that time... who really knows. There is so much motivation to shape how the world views their behavior on both sides of the issue that there is no way to separate the lies from the history. As you say, a couple examples of Mayan literature were preserved by the Church... who knows what that means.

[kailaurius]

When will people stop pretending that these were advanced cultures?

Hmmm, well, I don't know.  When would you like them to stop?

[CFTraveler]

I think there are a couple clarifying points to make about the Mayans...

First is that they have certainly been deified. They were a brutal and earthly race, just as any classical-age civilization was (our favorites in the western world, the Greeks, were petty, blood-thirsty warlords). We tend to place indigenous people on a pedastal as knowing, peaceful creatures, who lived in harmony with their world; this clearly not true, they were very much like us, with all the same frailties and bad tendancies.

Second is that the Classical Mayans were not one people. There is archeological evidence that the earlier tribes that were responsible for the advancements in mathematics, astronomy, and civil trade, were largely displaced from power by a later sequence of tribes, sweeping across much of Mesoamerica, which brought the strong emphasis on human blood sacrafice and warfare to support it. These bloodthirsty savages, (as opposed to the comparatively more civilized and learned savages that preceded them) were the face that Europeans were greeted with. The people the conquistadors met (although largely other groups like  the Aztecs, as the Mayans were quite in decline by then) were not representative of the height of those cultures.

And yes, the Mayans were aparently tinkle-poor farmers, lol. All evidence seems to suggest they destroyed their soil's fertility through lack of proper-crop rotation; again, at least the later Mayans, who were clearly not height of the brain-trust that culture produced.

BTW, when my brother visited Mexico and Peru and visited the usual ruins and archeological places, he was educated in these facts- apparently we're the only ones (non Central and South Americans) who didn't know this or don't want to accept it.

[Rudolph]

As for how the Catholic Church treated them, and what precisely happened during that time... who really knows. There is so much motivation to shape how the world views their behavior on both sides of the issue that there is no way to separate the lies from the history. As you say, a couple examples of Mayan literature were preserved by the Church... who knows what that means.

Actually, as for how the Catholic Church treated them, we really do know quite a lot. If there is one thing the Vatican was *very* good at it was keeping meticulous written records.

The Conquistador Officers were also required to keep detailed journals. And then there were opportunistic merchant class types who wrote letters, contracts, shipping logs, etc. in standard business style.

We have a LOT of very good reason to think we know *pretty much* what happened if not *precisely* what happened (what an odd word to use for evaluating historical record...?...).

We know that the none of these separate groups trusted the other and each offered widely varying opinions and points of view on what was happening at the time. One Padre Francisco Dumshitsco (I forget his real name) returned after a two year trip to Spain and upon return to Tenochtitlan was shocked to discover hundreds of thousands of natives had died in the interim and he blamed it all on the murderous Conquistadors even though the surviving natives clearly explained the smallpox symptoms to him. And even though there were only about 120 Conquistadors armed with simple muskets and even if they had managed to kill a couple thousand natives every day and spent all night digging the musket balls out and reusing them again the next day and even if there were enough gunpowder to keep reloading like that all day long every day for two years...
Well... his story made no sense at all but he still made the allegation and sent it back to Rome asking that all the Conquistadors be charged with mass murder. And even to this day moronic historians quote his absurd allegations as though they were true.

See, the problem is not so much that history is written by the victors but that, far more often, history is taught by idiots.

[Everlasting]

Huh, are you actually defending the demonic catholic church?

Jesuit blood oath

I_______________ , now in the presence of Almighty God, the blessed Virgin Mary, the blessed St. John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles, St. Peter and St. Paul, and all the saints, sacred host of Heaven, and to you, my Ghostly Father, the superior general of the Society of Jesus, founded by St. Ignatius Loyola, in the pontification of Paul the Third, and continued to the present, do by the womb of the Virgin, the matrix of God, and the rod of Jesus Christ, declare and swear that His Holiness, the Pope, is Christ's Vice-Regent and is the true and only head of the Catholic or Universal Church throughout the earth; and that by the virtue of the keys of binding and loosing given to His Holiness by my Saviour, Jesus Christ, he hath power to depose heretical Kings, Princes, States, Commonwealths, and Governments, and they may be safely destroyed. Therefore to the utmost of my power I will defend this doctrine and His Holiness's right and custom against all usurpers of the heretical or Protestant authority whatever, especially the Lutheran Church of Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden and Norway, and the now pretended authority and Churches of England and Scotland, and the branches of same now established in Ireland and on the continent of America and elsewhere and all adherents in regard that they may be usurped and heretical, opposing the sacred Mother Church of Rome. I do now denounce and disown any allegiance as due to any heretical king, prince or State, named Protestant or Liberal, or obedience to any of their laws, magistrates or officers. I do further declare the doctrine of the Churches of England and Scotland of the Calvinists, Huguenots, and others of the name of Protestants or Masons to be damnable, and they themselves to be damned who will not forsake the same. I do further declare that I will help, assist, and advise all or any of His Holiness's agents, in any place where I should be, in Switzerland, Germany, Holland, Ireland or America, or in any other kingdom or territory I shall come to, and do my utmost to extirpate the heretical Protestant or Masonic doctrines and to destroy all their pretended powers, legal or otherwise. I do further promise and declare that, notwithstanding, I am dispensed with to assume any religion heretical for the propagation of the Mother Church's interest; to keep secret and private all her agents' counsels from time to time, as they entrust me, and not to divulge, directly or indirectly, by word, writing or circumstances whatever; but to execute all that should be proposed, given in charge, or discovered unto me by you, my Ghostly Father, or any of this sacred order. I do further promise and declare that I will have no opinion or will of my own or any mental reservation whatever, even as a corpse or cadaver (perinde ac cadaver), but will unhesitatingly obey each and every command that I may receive from my superiors in the militia of the Pope and of Jesus Christ. That I will go to any part of the world whithersoever I may be sent, to the frozen regions north, jungles of India, to the centers of civilization of Europe, or to the wild haunts of the barbarous savages of America without murmuring or repining, and will be submissive in all things, whatsoever is communicated to me. I do further promise and declare that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons, as I am directed to do, to extirpate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex nor condition, and that will hang, burn, waste, boil, flay, strangle, and bury alive these infamous heretics; rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women, and crush their infants' heads against the walls in order to annihilate their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly I will secretly use the poisonous cup, the strangulation cord, the steel of the poniard, or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honour, rank, dignity or authority of the persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agents of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Father of the Society of Jesus. In confirmation of which I hereby dedicate my life, soul, and all corporal powers, and with the dagger which I now receive I will subscribe my name written in my blood in testimony thereof; and should I prove false, or weaken in my determination, may my brethren and fellow soldiers of the militia of the Pope cut off my hands and feet and my throat from ear to ear, my belly be opened and sulphur burned therein with all the punishment that can be inflicted upon me on earth, and my soul shall be tortured by demons in eternal hell forever. That I will in voting always vote for a Knight of Columbus in preference to a Protestant, especially a Mason, and that I will leave my party so to do; that if two Catholics are on the ticket I will satisfy myself which is the better supporter of Mother Church and vote accordingly. That I will not deal with or employ a Protestant if in my power to deal with or employ a Catholic. That I will place Catholic girls in Protestant families that a weekly report may be made of the inner movements of the heretics. That I will provide myself with arms and ammunition that I may be in readiness when the word is passed, or I am commanded to defend the Church either as an individual or with the militia of the Pope. All of which I,_______________, do swear by the blessed Trinity and blessed sacrament which I am now to receive to perform and on part to keep this my oath. In testimony hereof, I take this most holy and blessed sacrament of the Eucharist and witness the same further with my name written with the point of this dagger dipped in my own blood and seal in the face of this holy sacrament.

(Superior speaks:)

    You will now rise to your feet and I will instruct you in the Catechism necessary to make yourself known to any member of the Society of Jesus belonging to this rank. In the first place, you, as a Brother Jesuit, will with another mutually make the ordinary sign of the cross as any ordinary Roman Catholic would; then one crosses his wrists, the palms of his hands open, and the other in answer crosses his feet, one above the other; the first points with forefinger of the right hand to the centre of the palm of the left, the other with the forefinger of the left hand points to the centre of the palm of the right; the first then with his right hand makes a circle around his head, touching it; the other then with the forefinger of his left hand touches the left side of his body just below his heart; the first then with his right hand draws it across the throat of the other, and the latter then with a dagger down the stomach and abdomen of the first. The first then says Iustum; and the other answers Necar; the first Reges; the other answers Impious. The first will then present a small piece of paper folded in a peculiar manner, four times, which the other will cut longitudinally and on opening the name Jesu will be found written upon the head and arms of a cross three times. You will then give and receive with him the following questions and answers:

    From whither do you come? Answer: The Holy faith.

    Whom do you serve? Answer: The Holy Father at Rome, the Pope, and the Roman Catholic Church Universal throughout the world.

    Who commands you? Answer: The Successor of St. Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Society of Jesus or the Soldiers of Jesus Christ.

    Who received you? Answer: A venerable man in white hair.

    How? Answer: With a naked dagger, I kneeling upon the cross beneath the banners of the Pope and of our sacred order.

    Did you take an oath? Answer: I did, to destroy heretics and their governments and rulers, and to spare neither age, nor sex, nor condition; to be as a corpse without any opinion or will of my own, but to implicitly obey my Superiors in all things without hesitation or murmuring.

    Will you do that? Answer: I will.

    How do you travel? Answer: In the bark of Peter the fisherman.

    Whither do you travel? Answer: To the four quarters of the globe.

    For what purpose? Answer: To obey the orders of my General and Superiors and execute the will of the Pope and faithfully fulfil the conditions of my oaths.

    Go ye, then, into all the world and take possession of all lands in the name of the Pope. He who will not accept him as the Vicar of Jesus and his Vice-Regent on earth, let him be accursed and exterminated.