I have been noticing it being mentioned a lot lately that a soul can be destroyed. This seems a contradiction to everything I have read and or been told. It was my understanding that energy can not be created or destroyed only transformed. I also been told that the soul or our spirit side of our physical existence is ever lasting. So how can a soul be destroyed? I also been told you are completely safe doing whatever you want while obe. But it seems that if a soul can truly be destroyed then you are not as safe as people are saying while obe. So what is it?
You would do well not to accept answers to questions no one can end for certain, haha; can you really say anyone can answer something like this, and never need to be questioned?
I don't profess to know either, but much has been said on the matter that is interesting to consider.
Socrates and Plato had much to say, and here is one of their better arguments, from the Phaedo:
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/plato/p71pho/phaedo.html (http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/plato/p71pho/phaedo.html)
"Must we not, said Socrates, ask ourselves what that is which, as we imagine, is liable to be scattered, and about which we fear? and what again is that about which we have no fear? And then we may proceed further to enquire whether that which suffers dispersion is or is not of the nature of soul — our hopes and fears as to our own souls will turn upon the answers to these questions.
Very true, he said.
Now the compound or composite may be supposed to be naturally capable, as of being compounded, so also of being dissolved; but that which is uncompounded, and that only, must be, if anything is, indissoluble.
Yes; I should imagine so, said Cebes.
And the uncompounded may be assumed to be the same and unchanging, whereas the compound is always changing and never the same."
Basically Socrates is saying that in one sense there are two types of things- things that have parts or are composite, and things which have no parts at all, and are whole, and inalterable. Things which have parts can always be destroyed, since that would happen if the parts were separated, like the separation of our body's molecules, for instance. Things which have no parts cannot be destroyed or altered, since no change can be made to their composition at all.
So the question that leads us to is, is a "soul" a single uniform whole with no parts, or is it a composite of several parts? The answer you provide to that should tell you whether souls are destructible or not.
Quote from: Stillwater on March 13, 2011, 03:52:12So the question that leads us to is, is a "soul" a single uniform whole with no parts, or is it a composite of several parts? The answer you provide to that should tell you whether souls are destructible or not.
Nice use of socratic dialogue... my belief is that all matter breaks down into energy, and all energy ultimately breaks down into consciousness. Like energy, consciousness can't be created or destroyed, only converted. In this respect consciousness is 'one part' both in each of us (ie. the soul) as well as the collective unconscious (ie. there's nothing outside of consciousness.) In other words, the idea that one's soul can simply cease to exist is more of a leftover religious scare tactic than a reasonable assumption.
Nuclear detonations shatters the soul, according to the phoenix journals.
What are the phoenix journals, and how did they determine this?
Quote from: Nomesb69 on March 12, 2011, 23:50:52
I have been noticing it being mentioned a lot lately that a soul can be destroyed. This seems a contradiction to everything I have read and or been told. It was my understanding that energy can not be created or destroyed only transformed. I also been told that the soul or our spirit side of our physical existence is ever lasting. So how can a soul be destroyed? I also been told you are completely safe doing whatever you want while obe. But it seems that if a soul can truly be destroyed then you are not as safe as people are saying while obe. So what is it?
@ the statement that OOBEs are safe:
True. Nothing can harm you.
@ the statement that souls can be destroyed:
A load of poppycock!
Quote from: Stillwater on March 13, 2011, 20:16:47
What are the phoenix journals, and how did they determine this?
I tried to read them, and I had to stop. They are 'channeled' material, and obviously the people that were channeling were not channeling the most positive of their selves.
Their message seems to be fear, hate, and do what we tell you.
MO, of course.
Quote@ the statement that OOBEs are safe:
True. Nothing can harm you.
But this is only a belief, no? How could you know this?
Quote from: CFTraveler on March 14, 2011, 14:47:36
I tried to read them, and I had to stop. They are 'channeled' material, and obviously the people that were channeling were not channeling the most positive of their selves.
Their message seems to be fear, hate, and do what we tell you.
MO, of course.
It's not channeled because of the "tainting problem" risk, it's radio transmitted. The info in those books are quite impressive.
Quote from: Stillwater on March 14, 2011, 16:02:10
But this is only a belief, no? How could you know this?
What you don't know CAN hurt you!
Quote from: Stillwater on March 14, 2011, 16:02:10
But this is only a belief, no? How could you know this?
I know for a fact! I know people who have been doing it for a lifetime and were never harmed. How could they be harmed when the physical body is laying in bed?
As for those very FEW people who have apparently died in sleep paralysis...it wasn't the paralysis nor whatever metaphysical experiences they were having that killed them. This is science fact! They already had underlying health problems and this my friends is what killed them.
Sleep paralysis is something which occurs naturally and it is meant to protect you. In fact it happens all the time when you sleep. It is a natural mechanism caused by cells at the pons sending inhibitory signals to motor neurons in the spinal cord. Once this takes place, muscle atonia occurs regardless of whether you are aware of it or not...
You are far from a vantage point of being able to claim it as fact.
We are discussing something- "souls"- purported to be eternal; Having data from a handful of individuals who could have practiced 70 years tops does not prove anything; clearly you realize that when the age of a soul goes to infinity, 70 years goes to 0.0000000000% of that time. Such it would be with any trial over any time period. When you are discussing the ifinite, no set of finite data, no matter how large, is ever sufficient to predict all future behavior and possibilities- it would be a grave error.
You also describe people's bodies and their minds as though they are in different places during OBE, suggesting that this will protect the body- this has not been established; a large number of people feel the body and mind don't part during OBE, it is just a change of focus.
I am not saying it is likely that you can or will come to harm through OBE, but I think it would be ignorarnt to say it is impossible. All sorts of things might happen that are beyond anyone's expectation or understanding. Who is to say what hypothetical malicious beings may or may not be capable of? I think OBE is pretty safe, when you compare it to earth-activities, but that does not mean you should fancy yourself invincible, and do all manner of foolhardy things for the sake of doing them. I think you should respect the astral environment, its inhabitants, and any potential unknown dangers like you would any terrestrial environment.
It just comes down to the fact that absolute ideas are generally dangerous.
QuoteYou are far from a vantage point of being able to claim it as fact.
Erm... I wasn't talking about how old souls can be. I was talking about OOBEs being harmless...they are harmless! It's plainly obvious because the physical body is in a state of sleep...the same state you are in when you DREAM! and to claim that dreams can harm you is absurd. If you had a muscle atonia deficiency, of course, you could do yourself some serious harm if you started acting out your dreams.
QuoteWe are discussing something- "souls"- purported to be eternal; Having data from a handful of individuals who could have practiced 70 years tops does not prove anything; clearly you realize that when the age of a soul goes to infinity, 70 years goes to 0.0000000000% of that time. Such it would be with any trial over any time period. When you are discussing the ifinite, no set of finite data, no matter how large, is ever sufficient to predict all future behavior and possibilities- it would be a grave error.
When I said "a load of poppycock" to the "souls can be destroyed" statement I meant just that. Primarily because there is no evidence that such a thing even exists. Either consciousness is a product of the brain or vice versa. The statement comes from superstitious crap and fear-based bias.
QuoteYou also describe people's bodies and their minds as though they are in different places during OBE, suggesting that this will protect the body- this has not been established; a large number of people feel the body and mind don't part during OBE, it is just a change of focus.
What I describe is merely a description and not to be taken literally. In fact I'm the first one to say that OOBEs are only OOBEs in the sense that in terms of perception, the self
disassociates (emphasis on this word) from the body to focus
elsewhere (notice the italics) not a place...it still leaves room for the possibility that we are merely focusing on our thoughts (which are amplified to life-like proportions) and thus NOT focusing on sensing the physical body. Check out this link and you will see what I mean:
http://astralviewers.com/obeap-chat/science-meets-oobe/
QuoteWho is to say what hypothetical malicious beings may or may not be capable of?
Of all the nightmares that you've had in your life...have you ever been harmed by any of them? The monsters that come to eat you or the mob that comes to beat you...have you ever been harmed by what happens in a dream? The same thing for OOBEs. Also, it's funny that I never experience any demons...hmmm...let me see...is it because I don't believe in them?
Quotebut that does not mean you should fancy yourself invincible
It's not a matter of seeing myself as invincible, it is a matter of fact that nothing can harm you on a metaphysical level period - even when the experience turns unpleasant (and it usually only does this when it's fear-based or certain ill-informed individuals out there focus on stupid concepts like demons).
QuoteI think you should respect the astral environment
My experiences are usually pleasant and it is not in my nature to be disrespectful in whatever environment I find myself in. I've got better things to do with it like enjoying the experience, making observations and consider certain theories which could be potentially true about 2nd phase OOBEs (astral projection) like telepathy and precognition...
Quote from: Everlasting on March 14, 2011, 17:40:43
It's not channeled because of the "tainting problem" risk, it's radio transmitted. The info in those books are quite impressive.
One of the documents I read said that it was 'received' via a human channel. Maybe it was radio transmitted by a channeler, but that is still channeling to me.
Quote from: Summerlander on March 15, 2011, 16:09:51
I know for a fact! I know people who have been doing it for a lifetime and were never harmed. How could they be harmed when the physical body is laying in bed?
So........... Because something bad hasn't happened to the 10 people you know that AP, it's impossible for something bad to happen?
QuoteErm... I wasn't talking about how old souls can be. I was talking about OOBEs being harmless...they are harmless!
I wasn't precisely talking about how old a "soul" may be either; I was speaking about the danger of inductive reasoning, going from a few experiences to make a broad conclusion about all possible instances of such an experience. The reason the infinite age of a soul or mind is important, is that it emphasizes the fact that you are taking data from a very small sample size of the soul's purported life, and reason out of it a very broad conclusion, namely that an OBE could never lead a soul or mind to any sort of harm ever.
QuoteWhen I said "a load of poppycock" to the "souls can be destroyed" statement I meant just that. Primarily because there is no evidence that such a thing even exists.
Granted- but the arguments here don't rely on "souls" existing as purported; the very same arguments hold if you consider mind to be a product of body.
QuoteEither consciousness is a product of the brain or vice versa.
Is the vice versa that brains are a product of consciousness?
QuoteOf all the nightmares that you've had in your life...have you ever been harmed by any of them?
It has not been fully established that nightmares and OBE are identical events, and that the rules which govern the one should govern the other in entirety.
QuoteIt's not a matter of seeing myself as invincible, it is a matter of fact that nothing can harm you on a metaphysical level period
lol- the "you" in my previous post was not the second person singular- you personally- but rather the the hypothetical you, for which the words "a person" can be substitued; if I was referring to you personally though, knowing you were invincible and knowing nothing could harm you would be nearly the same thing, in effect- I do not see how in one breath that you could say you felt that nothing could harm you, but that you also did not consider yourself invincible.
Stillwater...
QuoteIs the vice versa that brains are a product of consciousness?
Hypothetically yes...if you consider the theory that everything is consciousness.
QuoteIt has not been fully established that nightmares and OBE are identical events, and that the rules which govern the one should govern the other in entirety.
More likely than not, astral projection is equivalent to lucid dreaming, just entered in different ways and therefore people are the ones who make up categories. The rules may seem different in each of them but who's to say that we are not experiencing two different kinds of dreams or that the very belief that we astral project is what changes the rules. Try to think outside the box instead of following what everyone else says.
Also, name one person who has been harmed by OOBEs and have they proved it concretely? I've never seen or heard anyone who has!
QuoteI do not see how in one breath that you could say you felt that nothing could harm you, but that you also did not consider yourself invincible.
You are clearly making assumptions here about what I said. When you visit the metaphysical level, nothing can harm you...this is the absolute truth. But I did not say "I don't consider myself to be invincible" either. I said "it's not a matter of seeing myself as invincible" meaning it's not about that...it is about stating a FACT! Either you need glasses or you are just picking at things...
Quote from: kurtykurt42 on March 15, 2011, 18:38:01
So........... Because something bad hasn't happened to the 10 people you know that AP, it's impossible for something bad to happen?
I almost missed this one! Where did you get ten from? I know people who have projected for decades and had thousands of OOBEs...they've never been harmed! I've been OOBEing constantly since 2008...never been harmed. You're more likely to win the lottery, my friend! :-D
The wind brought a strange haunting whistle to the deserted street, along with the dust and a single tumbleweed. High noon rang out on discordant bells...
Thomas Campbell believes it is possible for the non-physical part of ourselves to be destroyed... or wiped clean. Think of a hard drive being wiped.
Obviously no one knows for sure... but Mr. Campbell would be considered one of the experts in this field.
QuoteThomas Campbell believes it is possible for the non-physical part of ourselves to be destroyed... or wiped clean.
This is precisely one of the matters I was considering when I presented Socrates' argument- the wiped clean bit. Perhaps that part of us which exists might be an indestructable whole, which has no parts, and cannot be altered. But people seem to think that a "soul" can change, and one of the ways a soul could change would be to take on memories; but in the same hand, taking on a memory would be a change, and a change would require that the soul should have parts. So hypothetically, it may be that while the "essence" of existence is an inalterable thing, and cannot be changed or destroyed, the memories which a soul may take on may be annihilated, or separated from it at least.
Just a thought, but worth considereing I think.
QuoteHypothetically yes...if you consider the theory that everything is consciousness.
Yes, I thought that is what you might have intended there, but was unsure.
QuoteMore likely than not, astral projection is equivalent to lucid dreaming, just entered in different ways and therefore people are the ones who make up categories. The rules may seem different in each of them but who's to say that we are not experiencing two different kinds of dreams or that the very belief that we astral project is what changes the rules. Try to think outside the box instead of following what everyone else says.
It is not a matter of following groups or thinking as an individual. We are entertaining arguments here, and I have provided different examples of how many people approach these problems. I have never presented my own views in this matter, since they are not relevant. It may well be that these several events are the same type of phenomenon,
but it has not been proven, and hence you cannot make the leap that what goes for one goes for the others. We are discussing a matter of absolutes, and you should see that no amount of proof is suficient to prove almost any absolute.
It is one thing for you to think to yourself that it is unlikely that you will be harmed in OBE situations; it is quite another to tell others that it is not possible they should ever come to harm- likely no one is qualified to make such a claim.
Quote from: Stillwater on March 15, 2011, 20:25:17
Just a thought, but worth considereing I think.
For sure. I'm not going to get scared over it though. If I get wiped clean there will be no "me" to cry about it. :-D
Define harm. Thirty yrs ago my sister had several spontaneous OBEs in quick succession that involved our deceased brother. She saw him being run over by a car on her birthday in "real" life. She found these a most unwelcome intrusion and to this day is quite uncomfortable with the subject. This I know has caused her a great deal of anguish. The irony being, I seek the experience and haven't had one and she still occasionally has a little one and wants nothing to do with them.
Skiax, it is not the experience that caused her anguish. It was herself because of how she chose to see the experience. She could have chosen to see it as just a nightmare. Also, the fact that your sister wants nothing to do with them implies that she is running away and is afraid.
@ Stillwater:
Many people are qualified in certain fields and still make mistakes just like some people are not qualified in them and still be good at them. My approach is pragmatic. I have never seen anyone being harmed by such experiences! OOBEs occur in sleep paralysis just like lucid dreams. It is absurd to say that dreams can harm you. In fact, dreams may be useful in problem-solving, putting things into perspective and may play a role in memory. Firstly:
In 1st phase OOBEs (seemingly projections into the here-now physical realm), there are never any "astral beings" of any sort (and I'm starting to dislike the word astral, I prefer metaphysical realm). As far as I can tell, from personal experience, there are none to be seen. I have also made certain distinctions as to what constitutes this type of experience. There is no perceived meta-body as you experience the world from a floating consciousness perspective. Also, movement is different and the colours of the environment are duller. Even though I have made these observations I still do not rule out the possibility that this could be some sort of hallucination which displays particular characteristics. Sometimes you know what you think you don't know. Cryptomnesia is a perfect example of this.
In 2nd phase OOBEs (projections into what most of you call the astral plane), a lot of what you perceive is subjective, however, I have also made certain observations which make me suspect that not all is mine - but then again I can never know for sure because our minds can often exceed our expectations. I also suspect that these experiences can turn telepathic, particularly if you wish to visit someone in the OOBE-state. I know because I've conducted a study and obtained some confirmations. Either OOBEs can provide access to the objective reality of other people's minds or I've been running into coincidences all the time.
As for being harmed...never! I have never seen any evidence for this. I've seen evidence (although not concrete) for telepathy and for the possibility that consciousness survives physical death (obtained some information from the seemingly deceased which checked out to my surprise)...
But the harm...NONE! so I must assume that it doesn't happen just like I assume that you cannot be harmed in dreams. The only way you will be harmed from doing this is if the biological mechanism that causes sleep paralysis fails. If muscle atonia doesn't ensue, then you will be acting out your dreams and astral projections. It's as simple as that.
You may say that you think OOBEs and dreams are two different things but the thing is, they are very closely related (if they are not the same thing!). I see a lot of people in here being influence by this New Age astral projection tosh. Have a look at this for a better insight:
http://www.lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html
Hey Summerlander,
I understand the metaphysical implications but, for example, if someone were to be robbed and then beaten, it could be quite traumatic. It would be cold to no comfort for someone to stand over our victim, sucking on a popcycle, saying "This was your choice. You are choosing this experience. Can't you see that?" The victims "choice" is pain and having felt a bit of anguish in my time, it feels quite real. We can all sit around the table, sipping our coffees and amiably chatting with cold detachment but when the rubber hits the road, most people in the thick of something lack that ability and must experience the pain first. Healing later or maybe not. About eight years ago I was in a bad skydiving accident. Intellectually, I knew a part of me chose this event but that "part" wasn't the part I meet the world with everyday. All the pain, physical and emotional was quite real. Only time allowed me to view it with any detachment. I have found in my experience that people do not like having other people deny them their experience. We can never really know anothers' pain, so to deny it by calling it a choice is not the most compassionate stance.
Sure, skiax! I read you. The physical world can obviously be more dangerous and has much more of an impact. My father used to beat my mother up almost daily when I was a child and once he nearly killed her. She was in hospital. I hated my father and I was in a lot of pain...emotional pain. I also had a lot of nightmares.
In time my mother divorced him and I dealt with that pain. My mother helped me to come to terms with what happened. I also learned in my experience that one should not run away from nightmares. Nightmares are there for as to come to terms with certain issues...particularly anger and fear-based ones. The mind is a complex thing that always tries to make sense of the world around us. Metaphysical experiences could well be one way for it to come to terms with what's gone on. The pain won't go away until we face it and remedy it.
So, emotional pain in this respect isn't exactly harming. It is a symptom which let's us know that something must be done. there is fixing to do. I don't see it as harm. The only real harm I see is that which can potentially threaten your life or even that which can permanently change the way you lead your life for the worse. Physical reality has this potential.
You may argue that mental illnesses can harm you. Sure! I agree that mental illnesses like schizophrenia can lead to physical harm and even premature death. But if you treat it, it becomes less of a problem. I still maintain that OOBEs are not harmful even if they turn unpleasant. If they do turn unpleasant I recommend that people face them and attempt to understand what's going on rather than avoid them. I never worry about OOBEs turning unpleasant and I never fear that demons might come to get me. I have no doubt in my mind that the reason why I don't experience demons is because I don't believe in them and I usually focus on positive experiences.
When you have OOBEs you will understand what I am saying here. 2nd phase OOBEs, what a lot of you call "astral projection", is when you enter the dream world through the back door so to speak. You become aware of all this imagery which is otherwise part of the unconscious in your mind. Usually, upon the sensation of separation, you encounter slightly inaccurate replicas of your bedroom/house or wherever you are projecting. this is a matter of fact! The sensation of separation and movement might as well be illusory because the reality you encounter is one made of thought. Everything is made of THOUGHT! Literally! This is something that I have realised after many experiences. Even the perception of space there is a thought. The distance between you and an object is just a thought there which is amplified to emulate physical space.
This metaphysical realm, although it often resembles the physical one, it has nothing to do with it in terms of its nature. I also suspect that you may view other constructs there which are not your own, but essentially, because of its very representational nature, no harm can come to you guaranteed - despite the fact that the way in which you have entered this realm allows you to lucidly experience it as though it were physically real. False awakenings are the perception of the same realm. This realm is where you can experience dreams, nightmares, hallucinatory worlds, abstract worlds, ideas manifest in all their glory, potentials etc etc.
Despite the lies that you might have heard and read about where people astral project and are attacked by demons and then demons chase them in their waking state or they are possessed etc. etc., I can tell you with certainty that OOBEs will not harm you or place you in any danger. In fact, OOBEs and lucid dreaming should be used for therapeutical purposes because, at the moment, all they are doing is drugging patient and numbing their pain while the problem remains. Metaphysical journeys allow you to tackle the problem first hand - GUARANTEED! I know this because I know that it can give you so many different perspectives. I would urge your sis to get back into it and tackle it head on.
I'd also like to remind people that the idea for these forums is to encourage people to have OOBEs and to let them know the potentials that can become available and the doors that can open to them with this phenomenon. It truly is a powerful tool. The mind is amazing...but you must shed your fear or at least not focus on it. There's a lot of rubbish being published out there and I feel like I should caution people.
Quote from: Stillwater on March 15, 2011, 20:25:17
This is precisely one of the matters I was considering when I presented Socrates' argument- the wiped clean bit. Perhaps that part of us which exists might be an indestructable whole, which has no parts, and cannot be altered. But people seem to think that a "soul" can change, and one of the ways a soul could change would be to take on memories; but in the same hand, taking on a memory would be a change, and a change would require that the soul should have parts. So hypothetically, it may be that while the "essence" of existence is an inalterable thing, and cannot be changed or destroyed, the memories which a soul may take on may be annihilated, or separated from it at least.
Just a thought, but worth considereing I think.
Are you describing the 'soul' + 'spirit' theory? (Spirit being the indestructible whole, soul being the changeable (therefore destructible part) of the psyche?
Just curious, this convo has gotten more interesting (to me, anyway).
I suspect that the self is nothing but thoughts. I think that's all we are. And these thoughts may originate in unconsciousness before they slip into consciousness. In Tibetan Buddhism, ultimate reality is of a "radiant nothingness". There really is no observer nor observed. I think science is coming to this conclusion too if one considers the subatomic world. Everything is more like waves of potentiality than anything else.
Scientific experiments have also shown that activity in the brain's motor regions occurs about 350 milliseconds before a person is aware of deciding to move. Hmmm...it's definitely something to ponder about. It seems like things are decided in the unconscious mind which will then result in a symptom observable in the brain before we become aware of what has been decided in the waking state. This seems to make sense when I consider that when I have visited people in 2nd phase OOBEs, I have seemingly seen what's on the minds of others or slightly inaccurate replicas of what they were doing in waking life. I even had conversations with their unconscious selves while the conscious part of them was unaware of this. Stranger still was the fact that a friend of mine I visited felt strange while he was meditating at the time of my experience. He even reported to his girlfriend the feeling and added that he felt as though he was supposed to remember something or someone...
I also thought a lot about the possibility of an afterlife or at least the survival of consciousness beyond death:
http://astralviewers.com/random-chat/summerlander-there-is-an-afterlife/
Hypothetical but worth a read!
If the self is made of thought, then quite possibly it goes on the reside in the realm of thoughts post-physical death. It is also interesting to see that the description of the intermediate state of death in The Tibetan Book of the Dead is akin to a lucid dream or astral projection where one acquires a "mirage-like vision".
They also believe that ultimately, the karma that the dead person has accumulated during their earthly life will propel them to the next rebirth and not necessarily as a human being (this, according to Buddhism, is uncontrollable). The spiritual practitioner, however, knows that rebirth in cyclical existence always entails suffering. This is why their aim is to become liberated from rebirth and to experience no more i.e. the cessation of being (a very hard thing to achieve and even if you do achieve it, there is a good chance that you may spring back into existence).
All of this, plus my experiences is what makes me strongly suspect that dreams, OOBEs and NDEs are a dress-rehearsal for death. You may even think of them as "temporary deaths". On the "destruction of souls" theme, I'd say that there is no such thing as it would mean the cessation of being and therefore the cessation of suffering. According to Buddhists, you don't get that given to you on a plate. What do you think guys?