In The Beginning...

[Bedeekin]

Ben - there is no light saber.

I know!!!!!

i hope you are realising that I didn't think there was.

There was also no giant sculpture.. on both accounts.

[Bedeekin]

I was speaking metaphysicorically. Type that three times fast.

It's hard to say it once... never mind type it!

I know you were metaphysically speaking. Just seemed a perfect time for a Matrix quote.

This thread although going out of its way of being the most ubiquitous in terms of communication, is the most lacking in communication I have ever experienced. 

[Astralzombie]

It's hard to say it once... never mind type it!

I know you were metaphysically speaking. Just seemed a perfect time for a Matrix quote.

This thread although going out of its way of being the most ubiquitous in terms of communication, is the most lacking in communication I have ever experienced. 

Oh, I get it now. It seems we both missed the other one's joke, I was speaking metaphorically about metaphysics. This really proves your statement I believe.

[Wi11iam]

I know!!!!!

i hope you are realising that I didn't think there was.

There was also no giant sculpture.. on both accounts.

I agree - the communication could do with improvement.

This for example - from your link about the 'lightsaber experiment'

Conclusion.

I have held and operated a real Lightsaber. Period

http://bedeekinoobe.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/the-lightsaber-experiment.html


You can see how this type of communication might confuse anyone right Ben?  I wasn't realising that you didn't think anything other than you actually believed you held and operated a real lightsaber...I am guessing most people who would read your blurb would think the same.

And:

There was also no giant sculpture.. on both accounts.

http://bedeekinoobe.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/the-arcimboldo-sculpture.html

From your "The 'Arcimboldo Sculpture' Experience" blurb...why there are even pictures!  So okay you are a great story-teller at least, so what are you saying exactly?

[Astralzombie]

From your "The 'Arcimboldo Sculpture' Experience" blurb...why there are even pictures!  So okay you are a great story-teller at least, so what are you saying exactly?

I'm not speaking for Beedeekin, but I can give you my interpretation of what I think he meant.

What is real? Are you real? If yes, then what are you? Are you a physical body or a consciousness or both, either or neither? Well, I'm going to argue that no part of you is real, not to me anyways. The only thing that I know without a shadow of a doubt exists, is my own consciousness.

For something to be real it must exist objectively. Meaning with or without our consciousness, it exists.

So if Beedeekin is real, then the same applies for him. If his consciousness never existed, that sculpture would not be here for me to see. But still, what I see is not my consciousness and only my consciousness is real. The sculpture is not real

You can see how this type of communication might confuse anyone right Ben?  I wasn't realising that you didn't think anything other than you actually believed you held and operated a real lightsaber...I am guessing most people who would read your blurb would think the same.

You're right about most people in general but not most people on this forum. You see Will, as much as we have all communicated with each other on this thread, it never gets to deviate from the your main focus. Mostly because you won't let it. That's cool, I understand the thread rules and all. But I understand a little bit about people too.

People like to discuss things...sometimes serious stuff and other times not. Many of us are fascinated by the same things but the problem is that we are not all completely serious about the same things. So topics on a thread can tend to wander and eventually evolve into a new beast. That's alright if your fascinated with the topic but it sux if your real serious about it.

I guess there's nothing wrong with that but what happens is that you miss out on getting to understand a person and what they are like and how they joke. In other words you don't learn anything about thier personality...as much as this particular medium allows anyhow.

Long story short, I think I new the gist of what Beedeekin was saying.

[Wi11iam]

From your "The 'Arcimboldo Sculpture' Experience" blurb...why there are even pictures!  So okay you are a great story-teller at least, so what are you saying exactly?

I'm not speaking for Beedeekin, but I can give you my interpretation of what he meant.

What is real? Are you real? If yes, then what are you? Are you a physical body or a consciousness or both, either or neither? Well, I'm going to argue that no part of you is real, not to me anyways. The only thing that I know without a shadow of a doubt exists, is my own consciousness.

For something to be real it must exist objectively. Meaning with or without our consciousness, it exists.

So if Beedeekin is real, then the same applies for him. If his consciousness never existed, that sculpture would not be here for me to see. But still, what I see is not my consciousness and only my consciousness is real.

Pretty much what I have been saying here in this thread too IAB.

However, in that the only thing that is real is Consciousness, nothing really can exist without Consciousness acknowledging its existence - so it aint real unless that is the case...said another way it can be argued say, that this physical universe can still exist even if consciousness was not involved within it, but it actually needs consciousness to verify its existence otherwise it may as well not exist.

In relation to one another, we are real on account that we are Consciousness - and the constructs are real because we want them to be, so the 'tree' is real and the 'lightsaber' is real and my post to Ben was tongue in cheek when he said 'the tree is not real' because I saw the irony...it was a tree that he cut through in his lightsaber story and despite the sparks and ash and toppling of the tree, when he looked at it later, there it was all good again standing tall as if nothing had happened.

Perfect!

But yes - we are 'real' - I can agree to the idea that the only thing that is real is you and everything else is a construct you created (sophism) but only from the pov of 'no beginnings' No beginnings is where consciousness (as we understand it) derives...and that is the point of this thread.

So while Consciousness creates constructs to explore concepts with a hands on approach, and this obviously involves fragmentation, amnesia, and separation etc...we cannot deny each other being real, simply on account of that.

Sure we don;t have to see our self as being 'human' or 'higher self' in form or formless - indeed it serves us better that we dont - but that is very hard yes?

The process of fragmentation, incarnation amnesia etc...tends to MAKE us identify with our dominant reality (this PMR) and our particular gender, race, culture you-name-it - influences which are not in our control - at least not immediately but we can work on changing these to better suit what we actually are.

[Bedeekin]

I put the pics on there because when I didn't some people told me on FB that it would be nice to see a picture of the sculpture. Sorry if it offended you.

Unfortunately I didn't have a picture of the lightsaber. If I had I would have put that up there also.

[Astralzombie]

Sure we don;t have to see our self as being 'human' or 'higher self' in form or formless - indeed it serves us better that we dont - but that is very hard yes?

Yes, of course. I don't enjoy the thought of forced meds and a straight jacket.

[Wi11iam]

I put the pics on there because when I didn't some people told me on FB that it would be nice to see a picture of the sculpture. Sorry if it offended you.

Unfortunately I didn't have a picture of the lightsaber. If I had I would have put that up there also.

What gave you the impression it offended me Ben?

Why are you hiding behind humor?

[Bedeekin]

You can see how this type of communication might confuse anyone right Ben? 

No not at all. You are the only person it seemed to bother. In fact... this is a none statement. For it didn't confuse you... so why would t confuse anyone. It was a choice of wording.

I wasn't realising that you didn't think anything other than you actually believed you held and operated a real lightsaber...I am guessing most people who would read your blurb would think the same.

I really didn't want to bore people with the semantics and rhetoric you are being specific about. I'm sure that people didn't really think I had held a real lightsaber... but to say anything other than what I said, which was just a little statement, I would have to provide a reason and preamble about why I chose those words in the blog.

[Bedeekin]

Why are you hiding at all?

[Wi11iam]

Sure we don;t have to see our self as being 'human' or 'higher self' in form or formless - indeed it serves us better that we dont - but that is very hard yes?

Yes, of course. I don't enjoy the thought of forced meds and a straight jacket.

Nonetheless, at least there are 'places' such as this board in which such 'crazy stuff' can be shared and worked out right?  Now - in relation to my reply post, do you agree we are all real - because we are all - at our core, Consciousness?

[Astralzombie]

Nonetheless, at least there are 'places' such as this board in which such 'crazy stuff' can be shared and worked out right?  Now - in relation to my reply post, do you agree we are all real - because we are all - at our core, Consciousness?

Yes. I believe you are all Con's and therefor real. But objectively speaking, I still exist with out anyone else...that's all I meant.

[Wi11iam]

Why are you hiding at all?

I am not hiding Ben, and nor for that matter is Consciousness in Its entirety, as something without beginning.

However I would have to say that from experience IT is being hidden in a number of ways by something which seems frightened of IT being revealed...nonetheless, as fragmented aspects of that One Consciousness we each will eventually see IT as it truly is, even given that the process may require loads more 're' incarnations to finally come to that point. 

Thinking for example, that one is the only thing that is actually real, and everyone else is a construct of ones own consciousness, and that one is the only real consciousness, well THAT is one way to hide IT, or keep IT hidden from oneself.

[Bedeekin]

I don't hide behind humour William.

I wear it... but I don't hide behind it. I don't use it as armour either. I wear it because I am familiar with it and it is part of my life and attitude towards it. I wear it as my skin... not to keep warm and fussy.. but as a real functional aspect of my identity.

If it was a mask or something I hide behind then it is my physical counterpart that does this as something that has become me.

My sense of humour is my ego... and it is massive. I have a massive ego.

I'm just boasting now.

[Wi11iam]

Yes. I believe you are all Con's and therefor real. But objectively speaking, I still exist with out anyone else...that's all I meant.

Can you elaborate this concept for me IAB...I can understand it from the pov of The One consciousness which evolved from The Void as it became self aware and then began the process of creating 'others' using of course its own consciousness to make those 'others' real by imbuing said Consciousness into those 'others'...

In those initial stages, yes it could quiet honestly say 'I exist with out anyone else', for that was the state of its existence - there was no evidence of 'anyone else' existing apart from itself.

However, 'we' are...well lets say as a metaphor, its 'offspring' and not even the first in line, which would go to our 'higher self'...so in our form 'we' are offspring of offspring, but all related and all essentially The One Consciousness which had a beginning through The Void.

Without the understanding of our real...'source' as being 'that which has no beginning' which created The Void and essentially entered it in order to experience the construct(s)  - we are ...lets say...'little ego' (our in human form experience) and 'big ego' our higher self and 'super ego' -  'the One Consciousness which had a beginning' and are stuck with our myriad constructs and the myriad diversions, distractions, entertainments etc which those constructs provide...altogether from the 'top' to the 'bottom'.

Acknowledging our obvious beginning as The One Consciousness by understanding the nature and purpose of The Void we can - even individually - connect with that which created The Void, which is essentially who we are over and above The One Consciousness which had its beginnings through The Void.

All in all though, it really is a rather gross mistake to conclude that as consciousness 'I am' the only thing which really exists as 'real' and everyONE else is 'my' construct...

The truthful way to view this is that you, me , everyone is equally real, no argument, and if there is any voice of protest against this concept, it is likely sourced at the Ego. 

We simply cannot objectively say "I exist without anyone else" without this being merely an expression of Ego.  It would not matter if the expression was coming from Little, Big or Super Ego, or all three combined...it must still be a dishonest expression yes?

[Wi11iam]

I don't hide behind humour William.

I wear it... but I don't hide behind it. I don't use it as armour either. I wear it because I am familiar with it and it is part of my life and attitude towards it. I wear it as my skin... not to keep warm and fussy.. but as a real functional aspect of my identity.

If it was a mask or something I hide behind then it is my physical counterpart that does this as something that has become me.

My sense of humour is my ego... and it is massive. I have a massive ego.

I'm just boasting now.

Yes.

[Bedeekin]

My god.. I had to fabricate a whole post that pandered to your opinion of me to get you to agree with me.

That says a great deal about you... another nut cracked.

[Astralzombie]

All in all though, it really is a rather gross mistake to conclude that as consciousness 'I am' the only thing which really exists as 'real' and everyONE else is 'my' construct...

The truthful way to view this is that you, me , everyone is equally real, no argument, and if there is any voice of protest against this concept, it is likely sourced at the Ego.

We simply cannot objectively say "I exist without anyone else" without this being merely an expression of Ego.  It would not matter if the expression was coming from Little, Big or Super Ego, or all three combined...it must still be a dishonest expression yes?


I'm not saying I exist without anyone else. I'm saying I exist despite of anyone else I know with my current physical brain and knowledge of.

So no dishonesty implied or intended.

Besides, I only made the statement in context of a theory that is not necessarily my own but I do actually believe that you can't prove to me that I can't exist without you. But if you do actually have a way to prove this to me then I would be believing in the wrong thing and I assure you, it wouldn't be the first time.

[Lionheart]

 Wi11iam, I think you could learn a lot from this guy.

Check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LLq96yzONo

He has many videos where he tried to explain what is this reality.

Maybe he would answer some of your questions as well! 

[Wi11iam]

My god.. I had to fabricate a whole post that pandered to your opinion of me to get you to agree with me.

That says a great deal about you... another nut cracked.

No

[Wi11iam]

All in all though, it really is a rather gross mistake to conclude that as consciousness 'I am' the only thing which really exists as 'real' and everyONE else is 'my' construct...

The truthful way to view this is that you, me , everyone is equally real, no argument, and if there is any voice of protest against this concept, it is likely sourced at the Ego.

We simply cannot objectively say "I exist without anyone else" without this being merely an expression of Ego.  It would not matter if the expression was coming from Little, Big or Super Ego, or all three combined...it must still be a dishonest expression yes?


I'm not saying I exist without anyone else. I'm saying I exist despite of anyone else I know with my current physical brain and knowledge of.

So no dishonesty implied or intended.

Besides, I only made the statement in context of a theory that is not necessarily my own but I do actually believe that you can't prove to me that I can't exist without you. But if you do actually have a way to prove this to me then I would be believing in the wrong thing and I assure you, it wouldn't be the first time.

What has this got to do with what I have been saying about Consciousness, beginnings, Higher Self.

Sophism, being distracted by Egocentric constructs a discussion does not make.

[Fairywindblues]

Woah... All I'm going to say is that I was so not in the right mindset to start asking myself this question. 

Asking myself this just leads me into an endless spiral of questioning my reality, which in turn, makes me feel like I'm losing my mind.

When I start going into the whole "Is anything real?" or "Is this all but a dream" frenzy, I panic. And let's just say that I'm not good in a panic because I have this condition known as dysautonomia, where my autonomic nervous system is messed up.  I start producing adrenaline like crazy, will get short of breath, and my 'fight and flight' reflexes will start going haywire.

I do have such a hard time wrapping my mind around something having no beginning and no end. To me, the very fact that we ARE conscious, and alive, and on some tiny speck of a planet known as earth, floating around in some endless vacuum known as space... that kind of blows my mind in itself. I cannot fathom it, yet, at the same time, I wouldn't have it or imagine it any different. But like I said, I cannot fathom anything. My mind is blown by the fact that I'm even here, talking to you guys on this forum.

The "What am I?" questions have plagued me since childhood. I have a wild imagination and can imagine it being anything from: We are in the Matrix, or a computer simulation, or, we were programmed to live and do all of this. Or, we are merely inside of somebody's dream. But who is that somebody? Who is the maker? Is it us or is it God? Is it both? If it's pure energy, then where did the energy come from? Where did love come from? Where did beauty and perfection come from? It all looks like it has a maker; an artist. But who? Who?!

Wrapping my mind around these questions, though, just depresses me because I want to know EVERYTHING so badly! Call it a conceited gesture or not, I won't get offended.    I will never give up trying to solve the riddle. Life is the world's biggest and hardest riddle to crack.

[Wi11iam]

Wi11iam, I think you could learn a lot from this guy.

Check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LLq96yzONo

He has many videos where he tried to explain what is this reality.

Maybe he would answer some of your questions as well! 

Okay Lionheart - there certainly are many 'explanations' as to 'what is this reality' (Am I right in assuming you mean this particular physical universe with the 'Milky way' and innumerable other Galaxies?)
Are you a believer of this personalities interpretations as to what this reality is?

Also, to be fair, I am not asking questions so much in this thread - I am trying to understand exactly what some of the posters angles are in their responses and I am questioning some of those...so are you saying that this personality you have linked me to will assist me in understanding the direction these (and maybe you) are coming from with their beliefs?

[Wi11iam]

Woah... All I'm going to say is that I was so not in the right mindset to start asking myself this question. 

Asking myself this just leads me into an endless spiral of questioning my reality, which in turn, makes me feel like I'm losing my mind.

When I start going into the whole "Is anything real?" or "Is this all but a dream" frenzy, I panic. And let's just say that I'm not good in a panic because I have this condition known as dysautonomia, where my autonomic nervous system is messed up.  I start producing adrenaline like crazy, will get short of breath, and my 'fight and flight' reflexes will start going haywire.

I do have such a hard time wrapping my mind around something having no beginning and no end. To me, the very fact that we ARE conscious, and alive, and on some tiny speck of a planet known as earth, floating around in some endless vacuum known as space... that kind of blows my mind in itself. I cannot fathom it, yet, at the same time, I wouldn't have it or imagine it any different. But like I said, I cannot fathom anything. My mind is blown by the fact that I'm even here, talking to you guys on this forum.

The "What am I?" questions have plagued me since childhood. I have a wild imagination and can imagine it being anything from: We are in the Matrix, or a computer simulation, or, we were programmed to live and do all of this. Or, we are merely inside of somebody's dream. But who is that somebody? Who is the maker? Is it us or is it God? Is it both? If it's pure energy, then where did the energy come from? Where did love come from? Where did beauty and perfection come from? It all looks like it has a maker; an artist. But who? Who?!

Wrapping my mind around these questions, though, just depresses me because I want to know EVERYTHING so badly! Call it a conceited gesture or not, I won't get offended.    I will never give up trying to solve the riddle. Life is the world's biggest and hardest riddle to crack.

Hey FWB

I know what you are saying.

In realising that Consciousness does not have a beginning actually simplifies things a great deal.

We don't need to understand every aspect of this physical universe in order to just be in our particular place within the human form, here on the planet (which can also quite mind blowing) or get too carried away emotionally by it, or for that matter be indifferent or cold about it

What you are is a matter for you to decide but in the mean time you have to be someone right?  So keep the mind open on that... kind of like;

"For now this is who/what I think I am, subject to changes tweaks and shedding of formative beliefs as more data of experience comes my way".

Some data for you to consider if you can.

In relation to 'what created us, what is God, love etc...in regard to any particular experience you might find yourself in, be that this reality (physical universe) or alternate reality (Astral) if it has a beginning, then it is not 'God' and to be more particular...any personality which would claim to be your creator which itself has a beginning, is not. 

Indeed, as consciousness we have always existed and we have created these reality constructs in order to experience the different things the constructs were created for the purpose of.

Of course that is not that easy to just accept.  'We' – after all – are within one such construct, which had a beginning and in the form we are in (human) also will have an end.  It is no easy task to lay aside the things we have been subjected to right from the go get, as tiny babies devoid of any memory of prior existence and having to rely on what we are taught by those we learn to trust in.

So the first thing necessary to even really think outside of these taught beliefs about 'who we are' requires that lovely gift called 'imagination' which itself is subjected to all sorts of stuff – again, from those who teach, preach, direct, control, etc...

One could be forgiven for just shrugging and saying 'what the hey' and closing the mind off to anything which might threaten our immediate need to survive, be comfortable, acquire things we want, be 'normal' so we don't attract unwanted attention to ourselves which might have the people in white coats come along and slip us into a straitjacket and give us drugs which will help us stop asking such questions.

But really it doesn't have to go that way.  Science is beginning to connect the dots as it searches for the illusive theory which will bring all things together...in the mean time we don't have to wait for that to happen.

It is natural for something which is experiencing or has experienced a beginning to thus assume all things must have had a beginning.

Tom Campbell's theory of everything also recognizes this problematic approach whereby the question loops... "if we were created, what created us, and what created what created us etc...into infinity." His answer is to stop going there and just accept his particular model of 'everything' because of the existence of 'The Void' which apparently is impenetrable, and not only existed before anything else, but created consciousness, yet is not conscious itself.

In this way we do not need to 'torture' ourselves and can focus on understanding, exploring, working with the 'reality' which has come from The Void.

However it is not in the nature of Consciousness in any form or non form through which it is able to ponder and question, to accept the conditions and limitations of whatever situation it is involved with, and there will always be aspects of IT which will – given any opportunity – work a way to get past the walls placed in front of IT...and The Void is one such wall.

The better angle to come from, which also stops that loop thingy happening...that "if we were created, what created us, and what created what created us" thing and understand that Consciousness itself had no beginning – that any construct which clearly shows a beginning (like the Big Bang or The Void) is by that fact a simulation and that wonderful tool we call the imagination can easily enough include the likelihood that there is a state of existence where Consciousness actually had no beginning...we don't even have to go there to see for ourselves.

But it does bring an end to that loop thingy...and it needn't 'blow ones mind' at all...or cause sensations of fight or flight, anxiety etc... We are IT.  Period.

Of course, 'you' can be whatever you believe 'you' to be.