Modern day martyr or crazy idea that can't possibly help?

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

I am considering this option for myself. My family lives at the poverty to low middle class income level. Would taking out a high life insurance policy for my family for 10 million dollars then committing a peaceful suicide in 2 years later once the suicide clause exuding suicide in the insurance policy expires, would that count for a good karma? It would be like dying a martyr wouldn't it? That is dying for the sake of others that they might have life more abundantly. A very noble altruistic thing to do wouldn't it be? It would be totally legal. IMO it would be good karma as long as it was a peaceful death and done selfishly, and if I lived a good part of their life, and did most all that I could while here. Which is about where I am at.  

EDIT: This is about giving my family opportunities not money just for the sake of money.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

BTW Xanth when I first heard of this I knew at that moment that this was what I wanted to do. There was no hesitation. I knew that I could help my family far more than me living out the rest of my life. So yeah I didn't have to think it through. I'm only posting here to get the thoughts of astral projectors on this, cause I look up to yous. 

[EscapeVelocity]

I think that it is a bad idea for several reasons.

1- It is not, as you think, totally legal. You would be committing willful fraud against an insurance company, despite it's disclaimers. You have, in fact, declared your intent to do that here. With some due diligence, their lawyers might learn this through discovery and therefore argue to void your estate's claim.

2- A $10 million dollar policy would no doubt put your family through a year or more of litigation of the claim, potentially costing them thousands...the pain and suffering that might involve for them?

From a possibly more spiritual perspective-

3- Why would you suppose that you know better than each individual member of your family, what their choice for this incarnation might involve? Maybe they did actually choose the lives they are currently in...and they have no need, nor desire for someone to shove substantial wealth upon them? To possibly complicate things more than they already are for them?

Do you ascribe that power and that right to yourself?

4,5,6 etc- A choice resulting in a difficult personal karmic path...

It doesn't come across to me as an unselfish or noble act...actually more the opposite.

In my own experience, I know how difficult it can be. I hope you take some time to consider alternatives and move beyond this...there is always better.

EV

[Kzaal]

Adding to what EscapeVelocity said:

Do you think that your family (even if there was a chance that it worked out) would be glad that they were using the money they had from your suicide?
They would have constant regrets. They would never say: -I'm glad that happened after all.
They would feel terrible ever time they touched a dime from your suicide. Specifically if they somehow found out that you did that for them.
I would be ticked at my sister if she did that for my family, even if we were homeless.

Besides Life Insurance companies do check stuff like that...
I'm sure your family would be much happier seeing you succeed in life than crying at your funerals and having to grief.
To me this would be very bad Karma.

Edit: another thing I might add as I'm reading this post again. Karma is not just about money or just helping others financially. It's about helping them emotionally.
Suicide is never good karma in my eyes.

You're looking for a solution to your problem and you saw that shiny goldmine from the insurance company. Trust me when things look too good to be true it probably is.
You have to think this through.

[ThaomasOfGrey]

I am considering this option for myself. My family lives at the poverty to low middle class income level. Would taking out a high life insurance policy for my family for 10 million dollars then committing a peaceful suicide in 2 years later once the suicide clause exuding suicide in the insurance policy expires, would that count for a good karma? It would be like dying a martyr wouldn't it? That is dying for the sake of others that they might have life more abundantly. A very noble altruistic thing to do wouldn't it be? It would be totally legal. IMO it would be good karma as long as it was a peaceful death and done selfishly, and if I lived a good part of their life, and did most all that I could while here. Which is about where I am at. 

My best friend from high school successfully executed this plan and got close to $400,000 for his daughter out of it. I don't think he did it to be a martyr, more to make the most out of his intention to end his life.

He hated the money system and felt doomed to work as a slave to society for the rest of his life. At that point in time I basically thought the same way, that it would be better to be dead than spend 40 hours a week doing something you hate, so I didn't try to stop him or talk him out of it.

Now my view is that suicide is _usually_ an unsuccessful attempt to evade a problem that must be faced one way or another.

Ultimately, sometimes knowingly dying is the correct or high consciousness choice for the scenario - I guess Jesus is the easiest example.

What you have to ask yourself is whether your family really needs this money more than they could profit from your existence here. I think you will find it is difficult to argue that your family would experience more spiritual growth as a result of either your suicide or gaining the money.

[Xanth]

First, I want to make it 100% clear that we *DO NOT*, in any way, shape or form, condone suicide.  If you're perfectly healthy and have a long life ahead of you, then it's not glorious, you're not helping anyone but yourself.  It's a purely ego move.  Nothing more.

It's more noble to live the life you've been gifted to the fullest extent that you're able to.

I'm sure if you gave your family the option, they'd much rather have your presence in their life than money.  When are people going to learn that you can't buy happiness.  *sigh*
When all that money is gone, they're still out a loved family member.  

So you have to ask yourself this... do you do it to help?  Or, are you ultimately just trying to escape something with an easy out for yourself?  Intent.
Because your act has repercussions for not only you AFTER you're gone, but for your family for a very long time after as well.  

[baro-san]

I am considering this option for myself. My family lives at the poverty to low middle class income level. Would taking out a high life insurance policy for my family for 10 million dollars then committing a peaceful suicide in 2 years later once the suicide clause exuding suicide in the insurance policy expires, would that count for a good karma? It would be like dying a martyr wouldn't it? That is dying for the sake of others that they might have life more abundantly. A very noble altruistic thing to do wouldn't it be? It would be totally legal. IMO it would be good karma as long as it was a peaceful death and done selfishly, and if I lived a good part of their life, and did most all that I could while here. Which is about where I am at. 

I guess, if you do it for them, not for your karma, it's a good intention. If you (also) do it for your karma, it is a little less selfless and less good.

Karma traces form for each thought, desire, action. When you have good intentions, but your actions have bad results you still incur some bad karma. Ignorance and bad judgement aren't excuses; they have to be corrected too, not only intentions and desires.

In your case, your good intentions may have bad consequences, for your family or others.

We think and talk about "good" and "bad", but these are relative terms, limited by our bias, perception, ignorance, etc., and ultimately our Earth-centric thinking.

I understand and sympathize with your wish to sacrifice for your loved ones, but you can't know what will be the consequences for your family and others. An awful scenario: your family gets the money, that attracts the attention of some violent criminals, ...

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

I'm probably one of the most controversial users ever on this forum. LOL

I feel like I'm talking to a group of pro-lifer's rather than a group of astral projectors. LOL

I have told my family that I am going to exit life on my terms with a peaceful suicide method when I am an old man. They are OK with that. They don't know that I've potentially changed the date right now though.

This video pretty much sums up my view on suicide.

Let people kill themselves
https://youtu.be/ojvbww0T0-Q

BTW I am not depressed, so that isn't the issue here. Though I would almost say that I've failed to thrive. This is about giving my family a chance to thrive and beat the odds stacked against them. This isn't about money in of itself. It's the opportunities it will unlock for them.

I'll give a million dollars to the first one that comes to my place and gives me private lessons on how to astral project. LOL  Sorry I couldn't resist another joke.   More replies are coming.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

I think that it is a bad idea for several reasons.

1- It is not, as you think, totally legal. You would be committing willful fraud against an insurance company, despite it's disclaimers. You have, in fact, declared your intent to do that here. With some due diligence, their lawyers might learn this through discovery and therefore argue to void your estate's claim.

Most life insurance policies over two years do in fact cover suicide. Yes suicide is intentional which is why insurance companies make people wait 2 years before giving out benefits. I've researched this I know.

2- A $10 million dollar policy would no doubt put your family through a year or more of litigation of the claim, potentially costing them thousands...the pain and suffering that might involve for them?

One of my brothers makes good money so if any problems arise he can win the case for them. Besides the only way that the insurance company can win in court is if the suicide is under two years, or I mislead them on the application about my medical history which I won't do.

From a possibly more spiritual perspective-

3- Why would you suppose that you know better than each individual member of your family, what their choice for this incarnation might involve? Maybe they did actually choose the lives they are currently in...and they have no need, nor desire for someone to shove substantial wealth upon them? To possibly complicate things more than they already are for them?

We can suppose many things about why they choose this incarnation, but the only thing we can do is measure their suffering now and if they are suffering we can relieve that suffering and one way to do that is with money.

EDIT: I'll also add here that it's more about giving them opportunities too.

Do you ascribe that power and that right to yourself?

Absolutely, we have the ability to decide when to make a life in good timing under ideal circumstances, and we have the ability to decide when to take a life under good timing and ideal circumstances, one example being doctor assisted suicide.

It doesn't come across to me as an unselfish or noble act...actually more the opposite.

If that is your personal intent then that is your personal effect.

In my own experience, I know how difficult it can be. I hope you take some time to consider alternatives and move beyond this...there is always better.

EV

I am open to other alternatives. But I doubt a better one than this will come along.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Adding to what EscapeVelocity said:

Do you think that your family (even if there was a chance that it worked out) would be glad that they were using the money they had from your suicide?

Yes and no, they would be sad that I died, but they would be glad that I was looking out for them with the life insurance policy. It's a complicated question. It's like asking if someone that benefited form their grandmas last will and testament if they are happy about it. They would probably give a similar answer.

They would have constant regrets. They would never say: -I'm glad that happened after all.
They would feel terrible ever time they touched a dime from your suicide. Specifically if they somehow found out that you did that for them.

That might be true if I had children of my own, but I don't have children or a wife, I don't even have a girlfriend. I can barely work a job, and I've been more of a burden to my family than a benefit. This is the best way that I can rectify my past with the future. When they go and buy their new home with that money they will say to themselves "what a brave moral principled soul he was to do that for us." "They will envy me and my courage." And I don't say that boastfully. I say that because I genuinely want to help them. It would be similar to a solider that jumped on a grenade to save his comrades in battle. And yes if I do do this I will write a letter specifically saying why I did it so that they will have the proper frame of reference for how to deal with it.

I would be ticked at my sister if she did that for my family, even if we were homeless.

Why aren't you being ungrateful if she loved you that much?

EDIT: I take that back. IDK your sister's situation. But if your sister has been through what I've been through then really you should be understanding and grateful. But chances are she hasn't and if she's healthy and can take on the world and overcome then yeah then yeah you would have reason to be upset for a while.

Besides Life Insurance companies do check stuff like that...
I'm sure your family would be much happier seeing you succeed in life than crying at your funerals and having to grief.
To me this would be very bad Karma.

They would be crying at my funeral someday anyway.

Edit: another thing I might add as I'm reading this post again. Karma is not just about money or just helping others financially. It's about helping them emotionally.
Suicide is never good karma in my eyes.

What about doctor assisted suicide in states where it's legal?

You're looking for a solution to your problem and you saw that shiny goldmine from the insurance company.

LOL your talking like I'm going to be cashing out on this money. IMO this is one of the most selfless things someone can do for someone else.

Trust me when things look too good to be true it probably is.
You have to think this through.

I don't know if I will follow through with this whole thing yet, I mean it's quite a process, I'll see.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

My best friend from high school successfully executed this plan and got close to $400,000 for his daughter out of it. I don't think he did it to be a martyr, more to make the most out of his intention to end his life.

He hated the money system and felt doomed to work as a slave to society for the rest of his life. At that point in time I basically thought the same way, that it would be better to be dead than spend 40 hours a week doing something you hate, so I didn't try to stop him or talk him out of it.

Now my view is that suicide is _usually_ an unsuccessful attempt to evade a problem that must be faced one way or another.

I am way too smart to have anything other than a peaceful successful death. I've done the research on it while being depressed. Even though I am no longer depressed I still am sympathetic to those to do commit suicide.

Ultimately, sometimes knowingly dying is the correct or high consciousness choice for the scenario - I guess Jesus is the easiest example.

Finally someone that sort of sees it the way I do. OK perhaps not fully, but you get the underlying concept.

What you have to ask yourself is whether your family really needs this money more than they could profit from your existence here. I think you will find it is difficult to argue that your family would experience more spiritual growth as a result of either your suicide or gaining the money.

Your thinking is very close to the way I think. Only thing is that I don't view spiritual growth as a huge factor. I do view natural secular thinking as growth too. Spiritual growth is important, but not a necessity. I think I can create much more general growth if I go the way of the martyr.

Who knows though, in the end I may not even do this, only time will tell.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

First, I want to make it 100% clear that we *DO NOT*, in any way, shape or form, condone suicide.  If you're perfectly healthy and have a long life ahead of you, then it's not glorious, you're not helping anyone but yourself.  It's a purely ego move.  Nothing more.

Was Jesus' death purely an ego move?

It's more noble to live the life you've been gifted to the fullest extent that you're able to.

I'm sure if you gave your family the option, they'd much rather have your presence in their life than money.

Xanth your too nice, my life is very valuable, but I know things about myself and see things that are coming that you don't.

When are people going to learn that you can't buy happiness.  *sigh*

It's not about buying happiness, it's about buying opportunities.

So you have to ask yourself this... do you do it to help?

Absolutely, that is the main point. I am not depressed doing it for selfish reasons. And even if I was depressed I could certainly argue that it's still justified to take my life even if I'm depressed.

Or, are you ultimately just trying to escape something with an easy out for yourself?  Intent.

Well considering that I already tried very hard to go the long hard route and that never worked, I don't have very many options to help the ones that I love and right my wrongs in the process.

Because your act has repercussions for not only you AFTER you're gone, but for your family for a very long time after as well.

Well I've got a lot of time to think about it. So there is no rush right now. I may not even do it in the end, IDK, but as of right now it looks like a good option.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

I guess, if you do it for them, not for your karma, it's a good intention. If you (also) do it for your karma, it is a little less selfless and less good.

Well I can certainly go into reasons why it wouldn't be a selfish thing to do, but it would be way to controversial for me to mention here.

Karma traces form for each thought, desire, action. When you have good intentions, but your actions have bad results you still incur some bad karma. Ignorance and bad judgement aren't excuses; they have to be corrected too, not only intentions and desires.

In your case, your good intentions may have bad consequences, for your family or others.

We think and talk about "good" and "bad", but these are relative terms, limited by our bias, perception, ignorance, etc., and ultimately our Earth-centric thinking.

Yes I am aware. But I think the benefits outweigh the risks in my case.

I understand and sympathize with your wish to sacrifice for your loved ones, but you can't know what will be the consequences for your family and others. An awful scenario: your family gets the money, that attracts the attention of some violent criminals, ...

That was making sense up until you started talking about violent criminals, which is unlikely. In fact it's the poor that are more at risk of being around violent people. Thanks for chiming in baro-san.

[baro-san]

...
That was making sense up until you started talking about violent criminals, which is unlikely. In fact it's the poor that are more at risk of being around violent people. Thanks for chiming in baro-san.

Your original post reminded me of several instances of murders for profit, in which whole families were tortured and killed. The first one that came to my mind was the 2015 Savopoulos case.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Your original post reminded me of several instances of murders for profit, in which whole families were tortured and killed. The first one that came to my mind was the 2015 Savopoulos case.

That is just one case. Show me statistics and I will be much more convinced. I still think as a general rule those with money are much safer than those with little money.

[Xanth]

Was Jesus' death purely an ego move?

Well, considering I don't believe for a second "he" existed nor happened... the point is moot.  No "Intent" happened either way.

Xanth your too nice, my life is very valuable, but I know things about myself and see things that are coming that you don't.

It's not about buying happiness, it's about buying opportunities.

Absolutely, that is the main point. I am not depressed doing it for selfish reasons. And even if I was depressed I could certainly argue that it's still justified to take my life even if I'm depressed.

Well considering that I already tried very hard to go the long hard route and that never worked, I don't have very many options to help the ones that I love and right my wrongs in the process.
Well I've got a lot of time to think about it. So there is no rush right now. I may not even do it in the end, IDK, but as of right now it looks like a good option.

Excuses.  If there's one thing I know about you, Plasma, is that you have a lot of soul searching to do. 

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Well, considering I don't believe for a second "he" existed nor happened... the point is moot.  No "Intent" happened either way.

Excuses.  If there's one thing I know about you, Plasma, is that you have a lot of soul searching to do.

OK then let's take the example of a solider that jumps on a grenade to save his comrades from getting hurt and limiting their opportunities? Is is decision purely ego based? Of course not. And neither is mine. However if I committed suicide for revenge that would be a purely ego based suicide.

I realize that I will never convince you of this idea, because you can't accept it, because of what society thinks about it. No amount of logic will convince you on this. But that is OK. I understand. I am at peace with myself and that is what really counts.

[Kzaal]

I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish here plasma... I am speechless right now.

It's weird, for me pretty much from 12-15 years old to idk like 22-25 years old I've always wanted to kill myself because I found life too hard.
And now that I've finally found a meaning to it, every time that I'm about to go to sleep and that I feel like life wants to take me away and that I'm about to die, I pull myself out of sleep because I feel that dying, even in my sleep and even if it was god who wanted this, it would still be a bad move for me to let it happen.

All I'm saying is... I don't know... You shouldn't seek advice on a forum for theses kinds of things, Xanth has seen multiple scenarios like that happen over the past years and most of the time he says that you got to stop talking about it and just seek professional help.
We can't justify or defend suicide here it's not permitted.
And I would never tell someone that it's justified for whatever the amount of money his family would get... Life is priceless and it's a horrible thing to evaluate someone's life with money even your own.

Man... I don't feel good....

[Selski]

I feel like I'm talking to a group of pro-lifer's rather than a group of astral projectors. LOL

Hi Plasma

I wanted to address this as it cropped up in another post of yours where you seem to lump astral projectors in the same boat.

Yes, we are astral projectors but that's one aspect of each of us. We are all different. Some will be pro-lifers, possibly most will be. Those who are replying to you are more than likely to be pro-lifers. Those who aren't probably don't give a monkeys what you do and so won't bother replying.

I get the impression you think 'we' (as in projectors) are somehow set apart from other people - is that correct? If so, how do you think we are different? I'm curious as from your other posts, it looks like you're carrying around a rucksack full of baggage (and by that, I mean potentially erroneous beliefs).

What knowledge do you think we have compared with non-projectors?

[Selski]

Life is priceless

Before I could astral project, I agreed with the above quote.

After I could astral project, I agree with the above quote.

Life an be a pile of poo too, but I still agree with the above quote.

[Visitor]

Sorry but this is the most bat crazy idea ever.

It comes under the lunacy theories.

Firstly everyone here came here with purpose.  The harder the life the most purpose and most value.  You don't know what they came here to learn so you are projecting your perceptions of your life. 

Anyway money is the root of all evil.  It's not exactly a false saying.  But you need to experience it to understand that it truly is.

Your gift would come under one of the hardest, toughest and most destructive lessons possible ever for a human not prepared or ready to receive and prepared to contain that flood of destructive energy that would hit them.  

It's going to arrive and leave...but leave them wrecked.  And leave them feeling exactly how you do and exactly where they are now...but worse off in every way possible.

It singles you out....cuts you off ....opens flood gates for others to turn against you from jealousy, feed off you greedily and wreck you with guilt, doubt, insecurity and all manner of fear from inability to handle the money and its loss.  

the negativity of watching the destruction you will unleash may be your biggest regret.  

Before you go give them that test of a life that may destroy them....go study the after effects to lottery winners past the first week of elation and see what destruction it unleashes.  

That kind of test is reserved for those looking for major character battering.

It's a nightmare gift that will certainly change them but depending on their abilities to manage it....it may destroy them entirely.

Batshit crazy.  

But if you must give them a lesson they won't ever forget and regret their entire wasted lives.... it's your choice.  

As to all this astral projection being something special?  I have news for you.  We all...no exception....return home every night while the body does a reboot.  And we are all busy elsewhere.  We are learning or doing.  Some of us are so busy that we cannot ever recall a thing.  It's blanked intentionally. It's difficult if you are off somewhere to do serious work, where time is sped up (one hour =7000 yrs), to bring back that kind of bank recall ...it's impossible!  

If memory recall is the criterion that is prized or appears to be special..... some rethink is necessary.

Astral projectors are kept in tight playpen areas so they don't go anywhere, see anything or do anything....because they don't know how to.  In essence they waste their time frolicking in play pens.  Is that special?  Well it's ok if your ego needs to feel that. I think it's a waste of time personally.

[ThaomasOfGrey]

Woah, Plasma has the right to discuss this openly and I think the correct thing to do is to take it seriously and ride this horse to the conclusion with an open mind.

I'm probably one of the most controversial users ever on this forum. LOL

I feel like I'm talking to a group of pro-lifer's rather than a group of astral projectors. LOL

Don't sweat it. It isn't a good thing that we come off as pro life - grouping with people that have similar beliefs is the beginning of belief trap culture. If we can't discuss it here we have a problem.

Finally someone that sort of sees it the way I do. OK perhaps not fully, but you get the underlying concept.
Your thinking is very close to the way I think. Only thing is that I don't view spiritual growth as a huge factor. I do view natural secular thinking as growth too. Spiritual growth is important, but not a necessity. I think I can create much more general growth if I go the way of the martyr.

Yeah, it really isn't that difficult to understand if you aren't held back by a strong bias. I suspect that spiritual growth is just a terminology issue - I am talking about fulfilling the quest for ultimate truth, growing, being the best you can be. Natural thinking is certainly a part of it.

The way I see it, growth is a necessity, because the only other option is regression or staying the same. One direction is the way of life, the other direction is the way of death or stagnation leading to regression.

You might be right about creating more growth as a martyr, this is where serious thinking comes in. In order to act with truth you must display sober judgment of the outcome with the right metrics.

Well, considering I don't believe for a second "he" existed nor happened... the point is moot.  No "Intent" happened either way.

Neither do I, but it is still a good hypothetical example of suicide. I am interested if you think that Jesus' hypothetical suicide was incorrect, it would be in contradiction with a commandment, which puts religion in an awkward position.

[ThaomasOfGrey]

Astral projectors are kept in tight playpen areas so they don't go anywhere, see anything or do anything....because they don't know how to.  In essence they waste their time frolicking in play pens.  Is that special?  Well it's ok if your ego needs to feel that. I think it's a waste of time personally.

This is one of the most interesting things I have read on here. I agree that we seem to be confined, at least that is my experience. I wouldn't say it is a waste of time though, I have experienced results from the lessons of astral projection that improve my life. I understand the point you are trying to make though.

[Selski]

Astral projectors are kept in tight playpen areas so they don't go anywhere, see anything or do anything....because they don't know how to.  In essence they waste their time frolicking in play pens.  Is that special?  Well it's ok if your ego needs to feel that. I think it's a waste of time personally.

That's funny.

Out of interest, what would you say isn't a waste of time Visitor (and I'm not talking just about astral projecting)? 

[Xanth]

OK then let's take the example of a solider that jumps on a grenade to save his comrades from getting hurt and limiting their opportunities? Is is decision purely ego based? Of course not. And neither is mine. However if I committed suicide for revenge that would be a purely ego based suicide.

This is why I say you have a lot of growing up to do still, Plasma.
You honestly don't understand the difference.  Not even a little...
You think you're being noble and good towards others, but in reality, if reincarnation is true... you'll be back here so frickin fast it'll make your head spin.

I realize that I will never convince you of this idea, because you can't accept it, because of what society thinks about it. No amount of logic will convince you on this. But that is OK. I understand. I am at peace with myself and that is what really counts.

Someone choosing to end their life has it's place and time. 
You... you're just looking for an excuse.  You've got so much more to learn and you'll only learn that here.