First off, seeing as how you created the thread then you can close it your self...
I bet they are just going to use the structures that are already there on both planets, I am willing to bet we will "make our structures" right where the structures that are already there are "supposed" to be. Guess we will have to see.
They could get to Mars easily though, using the Medusa or the Steam powered space crafts they have designed.
-Aries
The only problem with going to Mars is the 6 month long trip or maybe it is even longer, and whoever is sent there is going to be stuck there a while. The mass of the supplies and such that would have to be sent along in order to survive that long is huge. Sure we could sent shipments periodically to keep them supplied but as with other mars projects who is to say it would ever get there? Never underestimate the stupidity of rocket science.
Its a bad idea. The International Space Station isn't nearly complete, has sucked somewhere between 200-500 *billion* dollars from the US economy, and once completed has an operational life expectancy of 10-15 years (before overhaul), for a operational crew of 8-12 people.
The costs of a moonbase are astronomically greater than a space station, and immeasurably more difficult. Mars would be even greater still. Add to that there are long term risks to human existance in space, one being the decalcification of bones, where they become more and more brittle, and will break much easier. What exactly is on the Moon or Mars that justifies a multi-trillion (yes, experts have already figured out the cost) dollar investment that we don't have already when the space station is complete??
This new program of Bush is a major sop to the major military-industrial sector that contributed so heavily to his politial campaign, and to secure more votes in the upcoming election. Do you think it coincidental that he loosened immigration controls with Mexico so close to 2004?
I think it's a great idea, but financially impossible now that Dubya has spent ours and the next generations surplus in the Iraq debacle.
Space is our future - or more likely now, some other countries future.
About the structors on the planets, we will use them for sure.
Although the "shadow" governments may sabatosh the whole mission because they do not want NASA to know about the structors. The higher ups in NASA know about it and so do the airbrushers that airbrush the structors on the photos before they release it to the public. I got that from Art Bell when he did a interview, that came from the guest and I believe it.
Art Bell was cool, though some of his guests made some rather dubious claims.
Then again, I have no great trust of Govmnt.
I just think Dubya's trying to find out if anyone's been hiding weapons of mass destruction on Mars.
Ooops....err...is that a stupid political comment????
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Originally posted by James S
I just think Dubya's trying to find out if anyone's been hiding weapons of mass destruction on Mars.
Ooops....err...is that a stupid political comment????
Na not really[:)]
I think it's a stupid idea but I wont back up my claim with any information because it would be considered political.
-Impunity
I love this idea. From what I know, he wants to actually start colonizing the moon, and move to mars from there. Sure it's expensive, but it's our next step in evolution. Read "Musings on Human Metamorphosis" by Timothy Leary.
Don't trust him, he is just going to have them go there fore like a week or something and come back with more "Specimens". I hate the man, he is an idiot and he is a stinking lier, I don't care the reason for the lie he still lied and I can't trust someone like that.
How can you say that you want to do away with NASA but think it's a good idea that they want to do space travel? I'm not sure about this issue. We've always had that need to explore, maybe the cosmos is next. We're nowhere near deep space exploration, but I suppose you need to start somewhere. Perhaps in the incredibly distant future there will be a great need and reason for space travel, so starting now couldn't hurt. However, we're in the middle of a war and a huge recetion right now, do we really need to throw billions more into putting a flag on mars when we have starving and homeless people on our own world? I think the money would be better spent researching a cure for cancer or aids. It might help him get re-elected, but who cares about him more then himself anyways. I think we have much more imortant issues to address other then helping Bush screw our country over for another 4 years. As far as colonization goes... why? We have no need for it right now. You might use the reasoning that our planet is falling apart and we may need to find another home, but mars isn't exactly a thriving jungle that's 70 percent water. Further more, you must consider the environment you will be colonizing. Hurricanes hundreds of times stronger then earth has ever seen, -300 at night, 200+ in the day, tornadoes hundreds of miles wide. Come on, do we really want this place to be humanities second home? So what if we can... the question is if we should!
You wouldn't need to send supplies over constantly, the Idea would be to start harvesting your own foods. Theres no real money problem either, I guess no one noticed america just took over the most oil filled country on earth.
The moon really isnt as important as mars, (for colonization) since theres nothing there, it just provides an easier way to get to mars, which is has water, an atmosphere, habital tempuratures and fairly normal gravity.
I don't think -300 is habitable. It would cost alot to make everything and send about 3 shuttles to send everything we need. Although if they would just finish that Mass Driver, then it wouldn't cost as much.
I would say more but it would quickly get political.
Let's just say there are a lot of reasons for going to Mars, not all of them about getting to Mars.
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Atmospheric temperatures are the featured Pathfinder meteorological observations and the temperatures encountered at the surface of Earth and Mars provide the primary basis for these developments. The temperatures on the two Viking landers, measured at 1.5 meters above the surface, range from + 1° F, ( -17.2° C) to -178° F (-107° C). However, the temperature of the surface at the winter polar caps drop to -225° F, (-143° C) while the warmest soil occasionally reaches +81° F (27° C) as estimated from Viking Orbiter Infrared Thermal Mapper.
I dont even see the number 300 in there, but +27 seems fine to me.
I was refering to the post above yours. But yes that does seem better, however there is still the strong winds. I just don't think it is worth our time right now, in about 10 more years, maybe but right now we have to focus our attention on using that money (which has been said we don't have) for something to help people right now.
america has more than enough money to help people. If you redirected most, not even all off the military budget, you could help every single person on earth. But it looks like their going to use some of that to restore intrest in dubya bush for 2005.
There is no way America could help every person on this earth, we could maybe afford to give everybody $200 although i fail to see how that would really help especially in the long run. Bush has gone to war with 2 countries WHILE giving a giant tax break (not an economically sound policy) hes give the military budget the biggest increase that we've seen yet, all the states pretty much are millions/billions in the red while the federal government still has that huge deficit over their heads, they're in the red too. He's created new departments and given more money to just about all of them. Now eventually we have to realize that this money has to come from somewhere and it is not neverending, if this keeps up hes going to bankrupt America, now is not the time to be adding another god knows how many billions of dollars to the nasa program so we can harvest red dust. At some point (barring a plague) it might be necessary to move there but we're not ready for it yet.
Impunity
-Go to war and lower taxes? Yeah that's economically sound.
America is poor compared to the rockafellars, who own every bank on earth.
Alright LOGIC, we will use your number. 27 degrees F, the warmest that our little pathfinder had encountered. How many miles do you think that that little pathfinder has covered? From Utah to Nevada, about a 6 hour drive depending on where you are, can range from as much as 70 degrees. So, according to you, the highest temp we have encountered is below freezing. But ask, what difference does this make? Do you not see that humanity is not concerned with whether or not we should, but whether or not we can. It will take over one billion dollars (easily, quite possibly much more) to colonize Mars. Aside from the fact that there is no reason to colonize Mars other then being able to say we did it, what other reason is there? How can you think that it is more reasonable to see if we CAN (not should) colonize Mars, rather then spend those billions of dollars (which it seems our humanity has come to revolve around), instead of using that same money to fix our own planet. If you truly sit down and think about it, there is absolutely NO logical reason anyone would want to put human life on Mars other then the fact that we can say "we did it". Who cares if we did it? Should we have done it? Wow, great, now mankind lives on a lifeless planet that has no benefit to life on earth. And yet we are not smart enough to cure the disease that kills 75 percent of Africa, or find a way to save animals that have lived on the planet just as long as we have. I may sound like a hippy, but listen to what you are saying! We have our OWN planet to save! What good could possibly come from GETTING to Mars aside from saying we did it? We might find a bacteria that has been extinct for hundreds of millions of years. Christ, has everyone stopped caring about Earth so much that we would rather live on a completely desolate planet? What do you think Mars is? Where did you get the idea that it is a paradise? What made you think that life there could EVER be better then here? Are we honestly willing to destroy our own planet in the HOPES that we might find a new life somewhere else? You want to explore another world? We have explored less then 1 percent of our OWN ocean. Who knows what possibilities lie there. We discover a different species every single day on this world, who knows what they could offer our own species. Earth is still one of the greatest mysteries we hold, and still we are willing to set it aside for a lifeless desert of a planet that we can't even begin to fathim living on. For all you who are for this idea... what in the hell can you be thinking? Have you even researched the planet you wish to explore? Do you even know the utter impossibilities of it? Even if mankind were to travel to and colonize Mars, no one alive right now would ever see that day. Don't you understand the extremeties of space travel? I just can't say enough about the ignorance of this subject. You watch Total Recall and think that we are at that next level. We don't even have an idea of how to preserve man in that situation. Even if we invented a ship that could take man to Mars, we wouldn't survive long enough to make any impact there. Sorry, I'm rambling, but you get the point. Nothing but wishful thinking from trying times! Good luck getting to Mars on Tang!
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It will take over one billion dollars (easily, quite possibly much more) to colonize Mars
Well, if you knew the right areas to research into, I reckon it could be done in under 10 million - and almost certainly 50 million. High spin m-state metals (iridium is supposed to be best) put into a ceramic disk would give you a sufficiently strong gravity-beam, once the niggling details have been figured out. Podkletnov, a Russian scientist, originally discovered the AG effects of spinning superconductors, and he has to use lame supercooling to achieve this superconductive disk. High spin metals can take us to the next stage. There are a thousand ways to get into space which are many, many times more efficient and safer than outdated rocket engines (50 year old technology).
Which is what this all comes down to, really. One big, bad, scam. I wouldn't be suprised if there already were bases on Mars. Nor would I be suprised if at least 50% of the budget for this program goes into unscrupulous pockets. So what Dubya want to put a few people there? If he had any real desire to help mankind explore space he would be pumping money into new ways of getting out there.
As for why get there - well! We probably wont know what its really good for over there until we get there! But exploring space, if purely for the reason of exploring space, is totally valid IMO. Next level and all that. Trouble is if we are really going to do it it should be done properly.......
OOooh but looks like Russia are gonna give it a go now that Bush has given the "initiative":
http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/379/11819_space.html
ps people who are talking of structures on Mars - beware! Hoagland seems to be a known BS merchant, and I've seen a very good explanation of how those "cities" on mars actually came to be (manipulation, no cities). Then there are those extremely shaky pictures on the surface which could be interpreted as buildings and etc, IMO they are not of a sufficiently high quality. The "face" and pyramid are also.....interesting but they may still be natural formations. I've seen some pretty crazy things made by nature. However, those weirdy wormy things (http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa030501e.htm) are pretty funky, I dont have any explanation for them.
All I'm saying is dont just accept things, use discernment. I dont know, there probably are some artifacts on mars. But, having never been there nor seen enough data, I dont think we can say for sure....
We do know that the "face" is a natural feature now. Pictures were taken of it a few years after it was discovered and it had changed and eroded. Kind of like a sand dune. That is the only structure I am aware of though, so the buildings and other things you are talking about would be very cool. I was also unaware of the metals issue. It would be great if the price maxed out at only 50 million. It would improve matters greatly. As for living I mars, I obviously don't think it's necissary by any means. But I must admit, exploration has never been a negative thing. It's a large part of the human drive. It will be some time before we get to that stage though, so I guess I'll just sit back and see where the solar wind, so to speak, takes us.
Hi, everyone. As a teenager, my baby boomer generation were told we would have moon colonies in no time -- and a whole lot of technological wonders. I thought we would have people living there by now.
So I am in favor of a moon colony and a Mars mission. We have to get out there sometime. May as well start now. There is nothing sadder than Americans without a frontier - and not just us - but all of humanity.
We always seem to need a place to start over. A place for the restless and the risk takers and the natural born explorers to go.
I would like to see some combination of private business and the federal government do the financing. They could watch each other. Might keep them honest. Or not. But at least the working taxpayers wouldn't have to pay for it all.
I don't think of it as Bush's plan, but more a plan that is long overdue that will span many presidencies.
As to giving everyone on earth $200 - what good would that do them?
It would bankrupt us and after they spent the two hundred, they would still be living where they are with the same problems and for the same reasons - whatever you attribute those problems to.
Give people a place to go, a place to start a new life, and they will go there in the billions.
People from all over the world came to North and South American centuries ago and traveled for months to do over dangerous waters. Many died, but still they came. So, too, it will be with Moon and Mars colonies.
My generation may not get to live in one of them, but many of the teenagers who visit this forum might. How exciting for you. I envy you that adventure. And when you go there, I will admire your courage.
Just listening to a Whitley Streiber interview (with Angela Micol), and something the guest said really hit me - total "click" in the mind type moment:
"....if we are going to get off this planet, which I believe is a big tomb"
As Whitley then said "I think it is........nothing wrong, its just there are too many of us, and we cant help using it up at a faster rate than it can renew itself"
Damn fair points. The thing about our civilisation is that it will eventually fall, whether through natural causes, war, what whitley said, or a slow degrade into negativity which will eventually swamp us. So, we need to get off the planet, onto other planets and into other solar systems, spread ourselves and our civilisation out. This will increase the chances of our civilisations survival, of which we are all an integral part, many times. If one planet is falling into decline, there are others! Or if one gets totalled by a huge comet flyby (planet X style), there will always be others out there who can help. So this pushes the idea of a real space program out of the "nice" basket and into the "absolute necessity" zone.
Conversely, if you take the bigger picture, exploration of space would be crushing for those in power, because it would mean people could comletely split from the current power system, try their own thang, get away from all the rockefellers and bushs and all that muck. So I am not suprised that the western space programs are essentially just big jokes.
On the other hand, China has a very different idea - they have far too many people and want to get rid of most of them! So you see their attitude is very different. They are actively and rigorously pushing ahead their space program, and will almost certainly beat the US government back to the moon and to mars. Watch their space! And hopefully where they go, others will have to follow.
Back to revision....I have an exam tomorrow.....uch [V]
Yes, China will definitely get there. The press of overpopulation will also impel India sooner or later to do the same. There are so many places on our world where the problems that come from too many people make life absolutely horrible for most.
But, do you really think the China of today will allow its people any freedoms on another planet that they will not allow here? Not likely. Of course, the China of 50 years from now may not be a totalitarian state. One can only hope.
TheAlphaOmega, it was 27 degrees C, if you had cared to read it.
If you haven't noticed, earth's environment is completly screwed now, with global warming and pollution. There are many reasons for going to mars, for one, its another planet that can easily be terraformed and at one point was in the perfect condition to support life.
There are canals and ocean markings all over the surface, with polar ice caps and quite possibly underground rivers.
Also, if you haven't noticed, that earths population is growing out of control, and more than 50% fossil fuel is already used up, at the rate were going we cant stay on earth forever.
Another interesting fact, The Outer Space Treaty prevents any nation or government to own land on a celestial body, which means that any planet colonized would be international and under ONE government, or under all governments.
(governments are still evil..)
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But, do you really think the China of today will allow its people any freedoms on another planet that they will not allow here?
Well, I dunno, but perhaps once they are on another planet, they wont care so much. Their strict rules are only really in place to preserve the power structure after all. But I would agree that freedom like that will eventually filter through. Well, who knows - maybe they are looking to make things more lax in the future? If they have an active space program with people flying around all over the solar system, then people will WANT to be a part of whats going on, rather than them having to force them into submission.
They are quite acutely aware of over-population, hence that law forbidding more than one child per family. Not sure if thats still going...hmm...
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Not likely. Of course, the China of 50 years from now may not be a totalitarian state. One can only hope.
Aye....
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There are many reasons for going to mars, for one, its another planet that can easily be terraformed
....some people think this is already happening, but not by our doing!
Rob
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There are many reasons for going to mars, for one, its another planet that can easily be terraformed
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....some people think this is already happening, but not by our doing!
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Really? Who? and by Who?
Mars wouldnt take long at all to reach.. they have ships which could reach it very fast.
The Medusa : is a ship which imagine a parachute in front of it, well the ship explodes a nuke in front of it and lets the chute catch the blast, which makes it go at incredible speeds.
Also they have designed ships that run off steam that wouldnt take long to reach it.
There is structures and such on mars, here is a good site.
http://www.enterprisemission.com
-Aries
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Originally posted by Aries
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....some people think this is already happening, but not by our doing!
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Really? Who? and by Who?
http://www.drboylan.com/trfmars2.html
Picked this one up at http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2004/01/11.html
Dr Boylan seems to be a good guy, but some of his info seems contradictory to the general impression I get of "the visitors" - he says they are predominantly real nice guys, but most people who I have heard of dont seem to agree. Of course this could just be media sensationalising the issue and him telling the truth - indeed Whitley Streiber (who I trust about ooh 85%, pretty high for me!) used to think they were nice. Although now he also thinks they are a bit on the crooked side of good, and backed up with Roger Leirs implant removals - people who have them removed say they have a new feeling of freedom. So, hmm, well.....intuition goes with him, but facts dont stack up very nicely. Well, thats how it is in the UFO arena I guess. He makes some good arguments.
But, his conclusion that the planet is being terraformed, may be jumping to conclusions. I would not be suprised if the atmosphere is changing over there - but then I've heard from other sources that there are crazy things happening to the atmosphere, magnetic fields, etc of all the planets in our solar system.....not least of all our own.
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Mars wouldnt take long at all to reach.. they have ships which could reach it very fast.
The Medusa : is a ship which imagine a parachute in front of it, well the ship explodes a nuke in front of it and lets the chute catch the blast, which makes it go at incredible speeds.
OMG!!!! Thats INSANE!!!!!![:O] But, impressive if it were to work!
I mean, do we even know what would happen if we let off a nuke in space?! One more thing - how do you stop yourself??????!!! Set off another nuke? Crazy crazy idea......I sure as hell wouldn't test that thing!
But you are right, there are many methods of getting there - and quickly - which are do-able. This one looks interesting http://www.forceborne.com/index2.htm
(I'm a student engineer btw [8D])
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Also they have designed ships that run off steam that wouldnt take long to reach it.
There is structures and such on mars, here is a good site.
http://www.enterprisemission.com
Arg! Richard Hoagland!!! [:O][;)]
Rob
check out
http://www.hindu-religion.net/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hinduism&Number=18555&Forum=All_Forums&Words=siddhis&Match=And&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=18555&Search=true#Post18555
makes references to ancient flying machines in india
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040114_1870.html from ABCNEWS.COM
So Bush is like Kennedy, good or bad? I think its good. Although I disaprove of NASA and I think it should be done away with, but this is a smart move.
It will also make more votes for him. * DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A STUPID POLITICAL THREAD. IF YOU DO THEN I WILL REQUEST A MOD TO CLOSE THIS THREAD*