The Astral Pulse

Well, yea the terrorists were the people committing that aweful crime against humanity - absolutely indefendable, and barbaric!!   I´m afraid that even more tragic terrorist attacks will occur in the states within the next few years, perhaps with some sort of ´nuclear´ weaponry...      
  .... this relatively small terrorist group though "spoke" (even if the language were horrible) for a much larger group made up of millions of millions (even billions perhaps) human beings who see the US of A as THE greatest terrorists of all...   and well, it doesn´t take much effort to see their point of view, at least not if your only source of information doesn´t come from the  main stream media that is....    the free media of today is just a myth sadly.

  Given you Daniel are an american citizen yourself, you might have a hard time realizing that the US are a terrorist state as well..   Probably the grand daddy of them all...  me saying that probably make you think I am an terrorist to but nothing is further from the truth...   just that they (US of A) handle things more ´discrete´, since they are sitting on the the majority of the worlds geopolitical power (and might I add values $$$ way above morals and even the most basic human rights) they have the means to exploit and oppress and they sure use it, they don´t send a troup of suicidal people to fly into Irans biggest buildings and spark the worlds disgust, and the oppression of the third world doesn´t reach the mainstream media as it should.....  

  Think for a minute, what made these frustrated people commit such an horrific assault on american soil??  Why do they hate America?  They didn´t do it unprovoked, that much is clear, of course that doesn´t make it any less horrible...   but then again, the "slow" consistant explotation of third world countries (mostly countries with oil might I add, what a coincidence......) that the US is guilty of have killed, mostly indirectly, far more than those killed in NY and DC on the 11th of sep., just not at one time and not seen on all the worlds tellies....     maybe Mr. Bush and many of his colleagues aren´t such angels if you think about it??   Living in America should be really good since the only real super power in the world today is pretty much only into national interrests - but think about all of those living outside the US borders, who has to live without the most basic aids for survival just so that the average US citizen can buy their gassoline as cheap as they can....   how do you think they feel about almightie America "stealing" their countries natural assets?

  Remember, An enemy is someone whoms story we havent yet heard, and often we choose not to hear that story casue we know we helped create it...
 ... we are all in this together, how can we choose sides on a round planet?

   Take care //Qui-Gon

- Your focus determines your reality -

I agree that America's hands are not clean, but the factors are pretty complex - I don't know if any one side can be called the aggressor.

Militant Arabs have been killing civilians ever since Israel occupied Palestine 30 years ago, and it continues through to today. That is a large part of the tension in the region, especially against the US, without whose support Israel may not have survived so long. But why are most of the oil nations allies of the US? Like everyone else, they're after the US petro-dollars. I feel it's hard to argue that the US has been abusing smaller nations over oil. Kuwait was a case of protecting national interests, and a large superpower has large national interests.

At the same time, US-led sanctions on Iraq are directly responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, and they seem to prefer political posturing rather than lives of the innocent, which is an outrage. If I were an Arab, I'd feel nothing but hatred for them also. But the answer isn't the murder of thousands more civilians - did they think the US was suddenly going to revese every Middle East policy decision just because they demolished the WTC? That is a terrorist's diplomacy imho...

Geopolitics is crazy stuff - just now East Timor becomes an independent country again, with Australian military and financial support. Yet in 1975, with Australian assent, Indonesia invades and quels resistance to make East Timor a province, obtaining access to some of the largest oil deposits in the world. Without Australia's assent, Indonesia would probably not have sought a war over the territory. Why did Australia approve - revenue sharing - the Timor Gap Treaty sees oil rights (and profits) split between Indonesia and Australia, and all it costs is the civil liberty of a third world nation. What else can you expect though - nations act in *self*-interest, and little else.

As an american citizen who has never been to any other country, how do I learn what it is really like to live anywhere else?

I think that Britain should have never lied and kept Jews from entering Israel after the Balfour agreement.  I think also that if Israel were a much stronger Jewish community (like it would have been if the Balfour agreement was enforced) there would be a lot less problems over there (as well as thousands of Jews who wouldn't have died in WW2).  
Anyway, militant Muslims don't only hate America and Jews, they hate all infidels.  Infidel is a Latin word that basically means non-believers.  They hate anyone who is not Muslim, and this also means non-radical Muslims are infidels.  

America has its problems, but these people are seriously screwed up in the head.  There is this article that was in a large newspaper (I believe in Pakistan), which basically was trying to convince the readers that Jewish people make flat bread with the dried blood of Muslim children.  I'm sorry, but that's nazi propaganda right there.  
All I ask is that people do some serious research into this area, before they accuse the United States of being aggressors.  I don't think you really know what you're talking about when you say that.  (This is coming from someone who is most unpatriotic about his country and many of the things that they do...so trust me on this)

I do, however, put a large blame on the media for not preventing this.  I don't know if any of you saw that special on militant Muslims (it aired about ten years ago on ...PBS I think, after the first world trade center bombing) and it basically said hey look at all these radical Muslims.  They live in the US, they want to bring down the US, and they are getting millions of dollars from donations and grants by posing as a struggling religious group.  It also identified several terrorists, and basically predicted the Sept. 11 ordeal.  Well... non-radical Muslims complained that it was giving Muslims a bad name, and it got A LOT of flak, and so they pulled it from the air.  I think that's bullshlt.  Had that video been shown several more times like it was supposed to be, we might have been able to have seen this coming, but because of our religious "tolerance" it was taken off the air.  I don't know.. If you live in the US and you see that video though, it will scare you!


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I have done a huge in-depth study to the Sept 11 attacks which led me extremely deep into the cesspool of USA politics.

Basically, Bush is not to blame. He is extremely corrupt and a puppet of others, but he is not directly involved. You'll find if you do any in-depth look that the USA is not infact run by those who you think, but that there is an extremely complex and corrupt back line which run the country anonymously.

As to the Sep 11 attacks, I wont post everything that I compiled here, but I think that you should all note several major things. The following list is taken from the online petition for a formal enquiry into Sept 11 at http://www.petitiononline.com/11601TFS/petition.html

1.) Thousands of put stock options that were purchased on United and American airlines immediately prior to 9/11/01

2.) Financial transactions totaling more than 100 million dollars that electronically passed through the World Trade Center immediately prior to its destruction on 9/11

3.) Black-box recordings from the four planes which crashed on 9/11

4.) Cell phone calls made by passengers on hijacked flights on 9/11 which never emerged on their cell-phone bills

5.) Interviews of any air-traffic controllers on duty on 9/11

6.) Eyewitness accounts detailing Flight 93's explosion prior to its crashing

7.) Aircraft debris strewn approximately seven miles from the crash site of Flight 93

8.) Unocal's role in its quest to build an oil pipeline across Afghanistan, plans implemented prior to 2001

9.) Carlyle Corporation's role in overseeing Unocal's quest to have an oil pipeline built across Afghanistan, plans implemented prior to 2001

10.) Role of remote-control software technology implemented in 9/11 hijackings and crashes

11.) George W. Bush's possible foreknowledge of the terrorist attacks on 9/11

12.) Role of the Northern Alliance in explosive growth of opium production in Afghanistan after U.S. military intervention


A certain level of knowledge is needed to understand several of the points above, but they raise some of the incredibly odd things about Sept 11.

Another thing not mentioned there is the fact that even though it was known the four planes had all changed dramatically no USAF air support was sent, even though that is standard op procedure, even after some of the planes had crashed still no air escort was sent.

That is damning evidence of inside support from the USA for the attacks.

- Ashfo

There are a great many things that we do as a nation that would make several countries angry at us.   I can see it well.   I have often thouht that if we started staying out of other peoples buisness we would not have as many problems ourselves.   But one of the biggest problems I see is the UN.   The US Military often ends up being the largest backer for most UN operations in any country.  That tends to push who evers hate toward the US.  

I also am begining to see more and more that our government is functioning less and less like it should.  The checks and balances system is a smoke screen for what is going on.   We are becomeing a country of too many beliefs and too many laws.  Most people don't see this because they try to look at in on the large scale.  It is however much easier to see of the smaller scale when you look at the individual states how things run.  Often things that are not in the public interest but rather a personal belief get past into law because they are piggy backed on with other laws.  A perfect example of this is California and its no smoking policy.  In passing this law they have taken the right away from not only the people but the buisness owners.  The bottom line of the law says that you can not smoke in or at any public facility.  Resturants, bars, bowling alleys, and parks.  
 Thngs like this show very well how the people in power force thier won opinions on to the masses.  It is the same with the Federal Government as well, but they in turn try to force thier opinions on the world.  Why do you think that the Anti Terroist movement that the US started got so much backing and very quickly.  The US government made it very clear that if you were not with us you were against us.  I mean come on we ousted an entire government from the middle east because we did not like thier views.  If we had just left it alone from the begining this entire ordeal would not have happened.  If other countries want to fight amoungst themselves, fine let them.  Just don't let them bring it here.   But we could not stay out of it and as a result we brought it to us.

I am begining to bable so I will stop.


David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com

I've heard a lot of conspiracy theories about 9/11, including the Israeli theory. I think it's a case of how seemingly inocuous information can be made to look like a major conspiracy fairly easily. I read the petitiononline page...

"1.) Thousands of put stock options that were purchased on United and American airlines immediately prior to 9/11/01 "
This is not as bad as it looks - analysts were bearish on airline stocks for some time, and larger put option volumes were sold in the months of Aug/Sep. There was however evidence of larger put volumes in the week prior to 9/11, and many of these were attributed to overseas buyers who were very possibly aware of / implicated in the attacks (Middle Eastern, etc). To suggest that any Western player would make those transactions is ludicrous - they are easily traceable and not only would you have profits frozen, you would be indicted in one of the world's biggest criminal prosecutions since WWII.

"2.) Financial transactions totaling more than 100 million dollars that electronically passed through the World Trade Center immediately prior to its destruction on 9/11"
Again, this is baloney. The WTC houses some of the largest broking houses in the world, currency transactions alone total $1.5 *trillion* US per day, and at 9:00am it was simultaneously the close of the european session and the start of the US session - higher volumes!

"8.) Unocal's role in its quest to build an oil pipeline across Afghanistan, plans implemented prior to 2001 " & "9.)..."
I don't find anything suspicious in this - Afghanistan lies between many Southwest Asian old fields and the shipping centres in the Gulf of Omman. There would be similar projects in any number of surrounding countries, which imply no involvement in planning an attack on the US to achieve their ends. US intelligence and retribution is scarry - I don't think Unocal Corp would be willing to stake their existence on contributing to such a massively risky action.

Of course, I could just be spewing Us propaganda, but I personally see this as a clear case of terrorist action and nothing more. Although I can't really explain the Israeli thing.

G,day guys

It all really sucks,cause it's just about the money & nothing else.I'm disgusted in our politicians here as they have designed the majority of the latest budget to once again follow the money,that is,investing heavily in war.The amount of money to be made from companies supplying everything from missiles to biscuits in the soldiers ration packs is staggering.For alot of people the more war & the longer it is,the better.

Here in Oz we have had a spate of companies collapsing & guess what? the CEO's end up with everything & the company goes bankrupt & everyone down the line but them, goes down.We havn't got as much money to play with as ENRON had,but a few insurance companies,an airline,IT companies,mining stocks & a few smaller fish made a nice dent in our economy,with lower income people bearing the brunt of the force through taxes.

I agree in one way,the media is trying to pin it on BUSH,but they wouldn't dare focus on the people who are major shareholders.One phonecall from a billionaire shareholder could ring CNN or CBS or whoever & say "I might buy a few million options in your company today,how long do you think it will take to sink your company?" Bush's hands are not dirty but he is a seal swimming with killer whales.

If this war ends up heading towards Columbia or other suspected drug traders in the world,you will KNOW it's all about the money.

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/bushcheney.html

If true,this is pretty scary.

Good journeys all

Mobius

i think this is the start of a decline in civilization, brought on our addiction to oil and having to manipulate the world to get it.we are not looking ahead to replace it with renewable energy and we are going to invest and use the military to get it. unfortunately the people of the US will  support this. it may be too late already.

Mobius - good link. Although I generally shy away from Nexus, that article was sourced well, from FTW I think.

In case anyone's interested in some wider reading on the issues, From the Wilderness is an excellent source (http://www.fromthewilderness.com/). Also, http://www.insightmag.com/news/251677.html contains some info on the insider trading theory.

And an interesting expose on the power elite is http://www.bilderberg.org. This site is a little too "conspiracy theorist" for my liking, but it can't be denied that the Bilderbeg Conferences contain the most powerful figures in the world today, and that their agenda is not at all in the interest of the common man. I would agree that things are, sadly, heading in dangerous directions.

A warning, if you even peek into the conspiracy theory culture, you will either walk away or get sucked in. I kinda got sucked in.

It's real hard to sort out the real from the paranoid and the many gradients in between, as they are all sensational. Some rational logic and even common sense, combined with deduction, will give you a rough idea of the real world we live in.

The US is a double-sided coin. Growing up here, I have life really good, and have lots of oppurtunities that not alot of others get; I'm thankful for that. However, I see politics and greed (not to mention...*dramatic music plays*...consumerism!) poisoning this country to death, dragging the rest of the world with it. I pray for good news.

bitsmart -
information illumination -
bitsmart@bitsmart.org -

Thanks Joe

I have read a bit about the Biderbergers before,there just seems so many of these big guys.Why don't you like NEXUS,got any good low down on those guys?As much as I like their stuff,you have to be even more careful to think of another point of view when reading their magazines.I try to cross check the stories with other magazines & websites,the Sai Baba one is a perfect case of letting someone else do your journalism for you & stuffing up.

Ralphm & Bitsmart,mate there is just as many scammers & greedy sorts willing to do anything for their own supremacy over here in Oz,it's just we only have a population of 21 million,same as L.A I think? But just like America,there were wealthy people right from the beginning establishing themselves for future control here in Australia.We have last time I heard, the largest building for a parliment house in the world & major finances were involved with the USA in building it.  

A large proportion of it is restricted & unused & if fully functional could house UN size meetings.Why build so big when we don't use it & our population isn't expected to explode?Why the reports of miners & construction workers that there is enough accomadation underneath Pine Gap in the middle of no-where to house a small city?Worst case scenario shelters?

The people who own the TV stations also own the newspapers & give heavily biased coverage of contemporary events eg. Recently here in Oz,Rupert Murdoch's company Newscorp was about to post an Australian record loss of $7 billion,but do you think much t.v or newspaper coverage was devoted to it? Some very quick t.v segments & small news articles,compared to pasting their rivals all over the front page for a 10th of the loss.The idea was to not alert too many people through media manipulation.All the financial advisers got on with their finacial reports & of course steered clear of Rupert Murdoch.

Also you mention getting sucked in by conspiracy theories,yes I know what you mean,somewhere in amongst it all there is the truth,but I'm sure these rich guys have lots of people leading false trails for them & making you think your onto something,when it's only another thing they have set up to divert your attention.Bitsmart we are all dragging the world to their deaths in first world countries,where does the amount of money one could want stop?

I really enjoy my life & the things I have & can achieve & feel lucky to live where I live,but money stifles productivity for the good of all.We take so much for granted like clean water,sewerage systems,power,good medical & access to the best products,even if it is all for show,only to be thrown in a compacter minutes later.

It wasn't until the Vietnam War that media was allowed to report with reasonable freedom & little censorship,then people had in their lounge rooms what our tax dollars are paying for,to kill others so that we can have more.

In Australia & America people were outraged & mobilized huge protests at our governments,some were killed for their protesting against war,what irony eh? In worl War 1 & 2 our troops were made to feel like heroes because thats what the media told them,but they were doing worse than in Vietnam,it's just peoples burning children weren't running across their t.v sets then,so they didn't know what war was like.

Good journeys all

Mobius

quote:

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Originally posted by Joe:
"1.) Thousands of put stock options that were purchased on United and American airlines immediately prior to 9/11/01 "
This is not as bad as it looks - analysts were bearish on airline stocks for some time, and larger put option volumes were sold in the months of Aug/Sep. There was however evidence of larger put volumes in the week prior to 9/11, and many of these were attributed to overseas buyers who were very possibly aware of / implicated in the attacks (Middle Eastern, etc). To suggest that any Western player would make those transactions is ludicrous - they are easily traceable and not only would you have profits frozen, you would be indicted in one of the world's biggest criminal prosecutions since WWII.

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You might be interested to know that the USA Government does infact know the whereabouts of Ladens accounts - they are joint accounts with William(i think?) Rockefeller, descendent of the "Great" Rockefeller. If you want the whereabouts of these accounts I can dredge them up. They said if they knew of the whereabouts then they would be frozen - but theyre not. Why? Because of corruption, political subterfuge etc. Please also note that if you were a Westerner involved with the attacks you wouldnt use your own hands to do the dirty business but would rather use overseas accounts and others to do it for you.

quote:

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"2.) Financial transactions totaling more than 100 million dollars that electronically passed through the World Trade Center immediately prior to its destruction on 9/11"
Again, this is baloney. The WTC houses some of the largest broking houses in the world, currency transactions alone total $1.5 *trillion* US per day, and at 9:00am it was simultaneously the close of the european session and the start of the US session - higher volumes!

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I never looked at this seriously as I knew of the incredibly high WTC trading volumes, but I believe they are referring to 100million dollars of illegal trading.

quote:

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"8.) Unocal's role in its quest to build an oil pipeline across Afghanistan, plans implemented prior to 2001 " & "9.)..."
I don't find anything suspicious in this - Afghanistan lies between many Southwest Asian old fields and the shipping centres in the Gulf of Omman. There would be similar projects in any number of surrounding countries, which imply no involvement in planning an attack on the US to achieve their ends. US intelligence and retribution is scarry - I don't think Unocal Corp would be willing to stake their existence on contributing to such a massively risky action.

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No, that is not the idea put forth. The idea put forth is this: The Taleban refused to allow the oil pipeline to go ahead yet Unocal made significant plans (involving surverying etc) prior to 2001 that were completely pointless unless they had prior knowledge of the Talebans downbringing. I do not suggest Unocal themselves orchestrated the WTC attacks, but alongside with the USA Government either:
a) planned them or (more likely)
b) had previous knowledge of them, therefore decided to use that knowledge to their advantage by blaming the attacks on Osama & those who harbour terrorists -- the Taleban -- by claiming to have "irrefutable proof" that showed Osamas involvement. Where is that proof? It has never been released but the world swallowed it whole that Osama was behind the attacks. And of course Osama would claim the attacks if they were blaimed on him - what greater publicity for his cause and what better way to show off his power?

quote:

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Of course, I could just be spewing Us propaganda, but I personally see this as a clear case of terrorist action and nothing more. Although I can't really explain the Israeli thing.

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Of course :P No, there are too many problems, too many missing links and not enough answers. Even if it is purely an act of terrorism, something which is extremely unlikely, the USA has put itself on the World Stage much too much in previous years and now for it to survive much longer. These are the days of power being associated with money, not might. There are many rich people outside of the USA, some who harbor great hate for them and with the same amount the USA might buy a squadron of F-22s he will buy himself a nuke and deal a much greater amount of damage.

There are nuclear weapons floating around these days - Russian records show huge unaccountable losses of nuclear and chemical weapons.

Bleh.

I just believe that every 'great' nation has its time - and the USA is nearing the end. Perhaps this will coincide with the 11th of December 2012 :P

- Ashfo

Yikes
Well I should've kept my mouth shut because I'm obviously not as knowledgable on this subject.

I still feel that people are just trying to point fingers, and need to just focus on the task at hand...so to speak.

Anyway
I still don't believe the Us gov't is to blame as much as the conspiracy theories claim it is.
Although Im not pretending the US isn't corrupt either.

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Hey Ashfo,

Well mate, you and I may have to disagree on this one. I see virtually no "evidence" in petitiononline's accusations - they're actually a bunch of one-liners on a website. You're right in that the US has traced a number of accounts that placed both forward and spot options before 9/11, and many of these accounts trace through Panama or BVI (British Virgin Islands) but claiming that no prosecutions have occurred "because of corruption, political subterfuge etc" is a little wild - any specifics on why this has not occurred?

I didn't see the reference to "100million dollars of *illegal* trading." - I think petitiononline left this unqualified as just "100 million" which is very easily explained as you can see. What are the facts behind construing any particular transactions as "illegal"? Can they say which transactions exactly were classified as "illegal"? If they're considered illegal, why have neither ASIC nor SEC said anything of the sort?

The point regarding Unocal still stands - there is absolutely no evidence linking that, or any other, corporation to implicit or explicit involvement in 9/11 - those claims are pure speculation based on generalised circumstances. eg, do we when Unocal filed request for pipeline (perhaps many months ago)? How many other corporations have files for pipelines through Afhganistan? How many existing pipelines are there through Afghanistan already? How many in neighbouring territories?

You see, it is very easy to for a conspiracy theorist to gather some generalised fluff and make it look like a major angle has been suddenly revealed. While this reinforces the preconceptions of other conspiracy-mongers, there is often little substantiation and poor research. I've actually written to Lori Price and Mike Wheeler, who posted the petitiononline web page, prodding them for details along the lines above - I've received no response.

Let me know if you have any sigificant research on the above, corroborated by at least two third party journalists, and I would be more than willing to change my opinion. Until then, the facts speak fairly clearly for themselves.

All the best,
Joe

ASHFO> "Basically, Bush is not to blame. He is extremely corrupt and a puppet of others, but he is not directly involved. You'll find if you do any in-depth look that the USA is not infact run by those who you think, but that there is an extremely complex and corrupt back line which run the country anonymously."  
 I couldn´t agree more to that statement, most americans, and "outlanders" as well of course, think George W currently is the most powerful man in the world...   but to my understanding, he is really but a puppet, a powerful puppet, but still a puppet...   and his strings are being pulled by other much, much more powerful individuals.. a group of indiviuals...
 
TOM, well I don´t know if you´ll find out how exactly how it is to live in other countries by going to this site, but it is one of the greatest sources of real news on the internet that I´ve found!!  Not the typical mainstream media babble about who gave who the last sexual favour in the white house and what have you....    it is www.rense.com - a bit down on that site you´ll find loads of articles..    and of course, the radio program is often very "educational".

Be well //Qui-Gon


- Your focus determines your reality -

Hey Joe,

I think your right on that one! I am not saying you are a typical American - you sound much too logical and independent for that, and having just said that I have seen your from Aussie... haha! Well, anyhow.. proves my point :P

You are correct in the majority of petitiononlines statements - it seems they were made by some rather misinformed and hasty people. When speaking on the 100million dollars of trading it was purely regurgitation of information from some other sources on my part and I accept that may well be a conspirators misuse of information.

As for Unocal I'd again like to point to the fact that no evidence as yet has been produced linking Bin Laden (and therefore the Taleban) with the Sep 11 attacks as well as to the purpose of beginning surveying prior to Sep 11 when it was obviously extremely unlikely building would ever go ahead. I myself in all the hours of searching I did never found any proposals from other oil companies and infact had proof that the US Government had collaborated with Unocal in terms of the pipelines construction. (I have since lost this proof and all other info I recorded regarding Sep 11 attacks because of a computer reformat - this sounds dodgy, yeah, but its the truth).

There are many other things to note apart from the evidence shown by petitiononline - such things as the lack of USAF air support, the fact that 4 of the supposed hijackers turned up safely after Sept 11 and such things as the never-released black box material recovered from the Pentagon crash, control tower-plane communication recordings etc etc.

I see your points and I know how easy it is for conspiracy theorists to come up with such ideas, but to me the evidence is overwhelming and points directly to something going on, to what degree I dont know.


- Ashfo

Hey Ashfo - fair points mate. In this kind of discussion, it's never going to be absolutely clear one way or another - there's always room for conjecture and debate. Good point of view nonetheless - and do post/email if you get more info/reports/etc as I'm interested in the general topic of power elite operations, etc.

All the best!

PS: I just saw you were Kiwi too - lol - that's gotta explain something for sure!

hehe, I've debated Sep 11 with so many and basically you take a side and stick with it, very few people change their beliefs...

I will have a look for backups I may have created in other partitions on my HD..

Have you been reading the Reverse Speech topic? I intend to do some reversals about Sep 11 and see what comes up :)

- Ashfo

In my conspiratorial opinion Bush knew about the attacks before they happened - he had to. Ashfo mentioned briefly what is for me the most compelling piece of evidence - that there is an airbase (I forget the name - Williams?) which is only 10 minutes from the pentagon. This base houses 2 flight ready squadrons of jet fighters AT ALL TIMES. Once the first plane crashed...no lets go before that. All flights in the US are tracked at all times (there are websites where you can watch their progress along the flight paths), and when any of these planes starts flying off their given course automatic procedure is for a fighter plane to "intercept" it. Especially when we are talking about huge passenger planes. They fly up there, find the plane, hold on its wing, try and hail them, see what they can see etc and the levels of warning go up and up until they start firing warning shots and, eventually, they might even shoot the plane down. This is a standard procedure and there is absolutely no easy explanation why NONE of the planes which crashed were intercepted. And yet even after the first plane struck, nothing, the USAF was nowhere to be seen. By that point the air above NY should have been stuffed with fighters - there were none. They only appeared AFTER the last plane had crashed. At the very worst, once the first plane had crashed, the others should have been spotted and intercepted (note this is very different to attacking them, although secretary of state would have you believe otherwise = spreading mis-information)

To order the airbase to keep all their planes grounded throughout the whole tradgedy would have required orders from the president himself. There simply is no other explanation.

Daniel - the media has only picked up on the most tentative pieces of evidence like the one which came out recently, and will inevitably get nowhere. To be blunt the press is in the pockets of their owners, who are in collaboration with the military-industrial-republican complex. Again, there is no other explanation except to say that the press is controlled in some way, otherwise why have they not picked up on the points above?

Anyone dissagree? To date I haven't heard anything near a reasonable refute for the above, but I hold hope!

Of course, yes, it was still an enormous tradgedy. As was the terrorist plane which was shot down with more exotic weapons later in NY - the one the press claimed was not terrorist (.....). The one where the back of the plane and its engine just "dropped off", and the black box recorder read g forces sideways of around 0.8 - impossible using normal theories - the turbulance one just doesn't hold (I study engineering, including aeronautical). And I believe the CIA still has not released the video recordings of the plane crashing, odd that.

Bitsmart

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A warning, if you even peek into the conspiracy theory culture, you will either walk away or get sucked in. I kinda got sucked in.  

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You are so right! I got caught in the web too.

Hope I haven't upset anyone here, but I believe the truth should be known.

Hey Inguma - I have to disagree my friend. I don't know where you got that opinion from, but I can only counter it with the facts :-

- At 8:40am EDT the FAA alerted NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector in Rome, N.Y. that American Airlines Flight 11 had been hijacked after taking off from Boston en route to Los Angeles. At 8:43 a.m., the FAA notified NORAD that United Airlines Flight 175 from Boston to Los Angeles had also been hijacked.

- NORAD ordered two F-15 jet fighters into the air from Otis Air National Guard Base in Falmouth, Mass., at 8:46 a.m. At about that time, American Flight 11 crashed into the World Trade Center.

- The F-15s were airborne at 8:52 a.m. At 9:02, as United Flight 175 struck the World Trade Center, the F-15s were eight minutes away, or 71 miles.

- The FAA notified NORAD at 9:24 a.m. that a third jet, American Flight 77 bound from Washington to Los Angeles, had been hijacked.

- NORAD ordered two F-16 fighters from Langley Air Force Base in Virginia to intercept the airliner.

- The fighters were airborne at 9:30 a.m., but were 12 minutes, or 105 miles, away when the airliner struck the Pentagon.

- After the Pentagon strike, Bush authorized fighters to shoot down any other aircraft that threatened targets in Washington.

- United Flight 93 from Newark to San Francisco was by then over Pennsylvania, headed back to the East Coast. F-16s from Langley flew protective patterns over Washington after the Pentagon strike, but as Flight 93 headed toward them, it crashed outside Shanksville, Pa., at approximately 10:03 a.m., according to NORAD.

- I can't recall any executive order from the President, Vice President or Security Chiefs to ground fighter jets, but as you may know the standing order is not to shoot down civilian liners without presidential authorisation, for obvious reasons, hence the delay.

I hate to appear predictable in my views, and I'm as willing as the next person to change opinions based on the facts, but like I said before, it's got to be *hard* evidence, not conjecture or hearsay from a C.T. site.

All the best!
Joe

Hi All -

Inguma - re Bush's knowing intelligently and the military being able to respond intelligently with fighter escorts to commercial flights containing terrorist threats full of civillian passengers in such a way as you described  - I say "full out B#Sh*t!"  As a military dependant of a career Airforce navigator and the wife of a former Army Airborne MP, I happen to know that the missions my family members participated in (Vietnam to Operation Just 'Cuz' and Desert Storm, were not necessarily guided by military "intelligence..."  'nuf said.  Regarding communication between civilian and military authorities - again - do I need to say it again?  Who would have really imagined this and would be willing to take responsiblity for shooting down three planes full of civilians over American soil in the face of possilbly being wrong?  .... AGAIN  - I say to you.... B#LL SH*T!

Censor me if you will!!

KB

Kristen, you are obviously a patriotic American and nothing will change your mind, but unless you have done some serious research and actually looked into the events with an unbiased mind can you draw fair conclusions.

I believe some of the timing recorded below is inaccurate..

=
- At 8:40am EDT the FAA alerted NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector in Rome, N.Y. that American Airlines Flight 11 had been hijacked after taking off from Boston en route to Los Angeles. At 8:43 a.m., the FAA notified NORAD that United Airlines Flight 175 from Boston to Los Angeles had also been hijacked.

- NORAD ordered two F-15 jet fighters into the air from Otis Air National Guard Base in Falmouth, Mass., at 8:46 a.m. At about that time, American Flight 11 crashed into the World Trade Center.
=

From memory I am certain AA flight 11 took longer than 6minutes after changing course to crash into the WTC. But, then again I could have a bad memory :P. Also note that it took twelve minutes for the planes to be launched. From memory again I believe the SOP response time to be in the vicinity of 3-4minutes, but definetly nowhere near twelve minutes. Im pretty sure the RNZAF could make competition for that, before the combat wing was disbanded that is.

You would also think that a plane flying into one of your largest buildings constitutes a rather major national disaster and that planes should naturally be scrambled to all major centres as a precautionary action incase of further attacks.

During the whole exercise four planes were launched.

Four.

- Ashfo

P.S: Joe, Nexus Magazine posted on article that outlines some of the problems with Sep 11.... There are a number of inaccuracies but I was just lookin' round the site last night and rememberd your request... you might find it interesting :)

They reported such things as Unocal stopping work in Afghanistan and... bleh, cant remember exacts, just a few things that werent quite right, but nevertheless its an interesting read. :)

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/overview.html

Hey Ashfo - the info I posted came from Associated Press, one of the world's largest professional news sources. I can't really put much more credibility into the data than that.

I took a look at the Nexus page - thanks for the link. I'd like to be more complementary about Nexus, but that page just confirms my currently held view that Nexus is a forum for 2-bit conspiratorialists to post whatever hogwash sounds good.

That article included a list of 21 'Unanswered' questions like, "Why were no names of the named hijackers on any of the passenger lists? If they all used aliases, how did the FBI identify them so quickly?"
  and
"Why are we bombing Afghanistan, when apparently no listed hijackers were Afghans but instead Arabs from various Middle Eastern nations? Since Iraq was implicated in the 1993 WTC attack, why are we not bombing that "rogue" nation?"
-- If they had done even the merest research, they would have discovered that the terrorists used 'stolen identity' aliases from a variety of Pakistani, Palestinian, Jordanian, Iranian, etc civilians. Many of these names were even on FBI lists for other reasons. This is the direct cause of, and answer to, both questions.

The entire Nexus article contains other "unanswered" questions, plus a host of uninformed, speculative and comical gems - my favourite was re: stock conspiracy - "Short-selling of stocks involves the opportunity to gain large profits by passing shares to a friendly third party, then buying them back when the price falls"  I almost fell off my seat at that one - even a basic knowledge of stock transactions would tell you that your "friendly third-party" would lose exactly the same amount that you gained, ie you sold high and bought low and he bought high and sold low!  I guarantee he won't be friendly no more.

Seriously, there's so much of this sort of stuff out there, and I don't have the energy or inclination to refute it all, but I can tell you that there's a good reason why most informed spectators shy away from Nexus' "world class" journalism - maybe we're all under mind control by the Illuminati after all!

Here's a link that IMHO contains a comprehensive and critical assessment of 9/11 (the conspiratorial angle notwithstanding) - http://www.attackonamerica.net

All the best mate!

Hey, thanks for the site.

Yeah I was reading the Nexus article about 2am or 3am last night, my brain obviously missed some of their stupid statements, especially that one about the shorting of stocks... rofl. He's obviously a stock market genius huh? :P

On second looks I agree that about 50% of those questions are contradictory and entirely obvious.

Heh, the reason those times etc are false is because of what you said - theyre from the Associated Press which is part of the Conspiracy that The Revolution must overthrow by Exposing the Obvious Truths of that which They Cannot Hide.

Exaggerated, but rather true. The larger the agency the higher the chance of the truth being distorted by those Higher Up.

From your AttackonAmerica website I got the following information which partially confirms my suspicions and memories. I've just copied the questions that are relevant to our discussion on the response of the USAF, and also a few at the end that I find most important.

------------
. NORAD had almost an hour and half to scramble F-16 jets from Langley AFB to protect Washington D.C. and the Pentagon, but incredibly failed to do so. Their excuse was that they didn't have enough time. Isn't 90 minutes enough time to protect Washington D.C.?

2. NORAD had a least half an hour to scramble F-15 jets from Otis Air Station to protect NYC / WTC, but yet failed to do so. Isn't 30 minutes enough time to protect New York City?

3. NORAD purportedly gets info from FAA at 8:40 and 8:43 that 2 planes have been hijacked and are heading directly for NYC. (they knew hijacking as early as 8:10-8:15) Why does NORAD then sit on this vital info for 6 full minutes and even waited until one of the planes went into the WTC before telling Otis Air Station to scramble at 8:46?

4. Once the F-15's at 8:52 and the F-16's at 9:30 were finally airborne, why were they flying at less than 1/3 of their top speed?

5. American Airlines Flight 11 flew directly over the #1 terrorist target in the U.S. -- Indian Point's 3 Nuclear Power Plants which are only 24 miles north of NYC. More than 20 million people would prematurely die and the land would become a wasteland forever. So, are we dealing with benevolent terrorists?

9. Did big oil and gas multinationals plan for years to build pipelines from the Caspian Sea going through Afghanistan?

15. Follow the money. By following the Put Options on United Airlines and American Airlines stock the days preceding Sept. 11, you will find it was anything but normal. Did some some U.S. intelligence agencies profit by selling these stocks short?

16. Where the hell is the white paper we were promised months ago by the United States government which was supposed to describe in detail all of the insurmountable evidence against Osama bin Laden? Ashfos note: this is the biggest piece of evidence for myself. How ironic that it is infact a lack of evidence that creates this evidence.

18. Former President Bush should immediately resign from the Carlyle Group because of an obvious conflict of interest. How much money is the Bush family making off this undeclared war?

20. What about the black boxes from all 4 flights? What about all the conversations between the FAA and all 4 of these flights? What about all those cell phone calls made from all of these flights? Wouldn't it be nice to actually be able to hear for ourselves some of the actual voices. Or is that just too much to ask in a free and open democracy? The grieving widows of UA 93 has asked the FBI to please let them listen to the last few minutes of the voice recorder for closure's sake -- why has the FBI denied them this?

22. How could there possibly not be any Congressional investigation on what took place on September 11th? In the January 2002 issue of Fire Engineering Magazine at fireengineering.com there is a Call to Action for its members to contact their Senators and Representatives in Washington D.C. to ask that a blue ribbon panel be convened to thoroughly investigate the WTC collapse. Fire Engineering has good reason to believe that the "official investigation" blessed by FEMA and run by the American Society of Civil Engineers with the Bechtel Corporation is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure. How can the biggest terrorist attack on American soil since the war of 1812 go without a complete indepth Federal investigation?

And for a little interest:

23. Understand History: From the USS Maine being destroyed in 1898, to the Lusitania being sunk in 1915, to our allowing Pearl Harbor's attack in 1941, to the Gulf of Tonkin in 1964, to 300 babies slaughtered in incubators in 1991, and finally understand Operation Northwoods from 1962. How many times can the overwhelming majority of us keep being fooled?



----------------------------





- Ashfo

Ashfo your sequence of events is as I remember them. After the first plane struck there was ample time for jets to get into the air, who would at the very least have been prepared by then since they would have been informed about all the planes which were off course.

Kristen for an example of fighters intercepting a plane which has gone off course check out
http://www.1staf.tyndall.af.mil/defender/winter99/Feature2.htm
Communications problems become irrelevant in the middle of a crisis like 9/11. By the time the first plane had hit the entire airbase would have known what they needed to do - intercept and other planes which were off course. And they had shed loads of time to do this.

oops my bad not secretary of state, I meant the Vice President Cheney. For a link of what I was talking about see:
http://www.tenc.net/indict/indict-2.htm

Wasn't there that other little coincidence that a couple of weeks before the WTC changed their insurance to cover for terrorist attacks? How odd...

Of course, please feel free to tear down my arguments, I don't come here to have everyone agree with me! hehe

I don´t know if I should write this- because I have not really read all posts onthe topic- but from a fast overlook it seems that most americans on the forum seem to be more pro the american side and most none americans seem to whant to put the blame a bit on the anmericans.. can this be a coincidence? but as I said- I havn´t had time to read the posts really yet...

Personally I understand that US foregin poletics raises anger... but then agina ALL powerfull poleticians seem to be a-holes, no matter where they come from. And at least america defends the democratic ideas.. even thoug its foregin poleyics seem to be more about mony then anything else..

-- Love is the Law - Love under Will --

Americans have short memories.

They forget it was THEIR government who trained and armed Osama Bin Laden's malitia to the teeth just a few years ago.  

Tiger bit back I fear.

Yours,
Frank

i am from the usa and i think something fishy is going on. at the very least our government is guilty of supporting and poividing terrorists when it is in our supposed best interest.  unfortunately there is no balance of powers in the world-bush and company decide who is guilty and decide what the punishment will be, then bribe and kisses the butt of other leaders of  other countries so they play along.

Bah
You non Americans and your conspiracy theories!
Haha Just kidding.  I admit the US is no innocent little...err...country..
But seriously...what country is? Or what country would be with so much power?
(Not that thats an insult on other countries power..I just mean realistically the US does have a lot of power and control over the world economy and other such things and if another country were in this position would they really be perfect?)

I dont agree with dishonesty or corruption, but damn...Its just human-(politician) nature.
I think many other countries get away with corrupt activities because the US is actually under a more watchful eye (IE every country that has any beef or negative feelings towards us)

It really surprises me how much propaganda is spread about the Us.  When I went to britian for a vacation...everybody I spoke to looked at me in horror (when I said i was from the US) and said to me something along the lines of "oh god how could you live in such a violent place"  and Id be like violent? and theyd be like "with all the murders and mugging and shootings! "  Wow..I cant believe how many people reacted in this way.  Sure there is bad areas ....but like...thats like so little of the country.  Watching the news it seemed like they reported more on crime in the US then news in their own country!!!! I couldnt believe how obvious the propaganda was...  I have to say... the food sucks over there! boiled potatos and grilled cheese sandwhichs!  Even the fast food chains tasted really bad.  I am spoiled by American food.  Luckily there is so many fat americans that it creates a huge business for food. hahaha

[][][] <-- boxes --> [][][]

Hah!

American food tastes good?

Your butter tastes like fat, my dear friend..

You haven't experienced true fresh meat and dairy products till you come to the land of the Z!


- Ashfo

Our butter tastes like fat?! Whoa I think you got the wrong country.
Our butter tastes like chemicals and water!!!
We dont have real dairy.  LoL
No I have to admit..When I was in England the dairy was quite good, although Im not used to eating such fatty dairy, and it would make me a bit sick.  

As far as the meat goes..Ive had some pretty good meat !!! HAhah

Hey speaking of poultry, did you see the genetically altered featherless chicken thats been getting all the animal rights attention? Lol that thing looks funny as hell.

[][][] <-- boxes --> [][][]

Well, world I agree with just about everything you might say, especially about Bush corruption based King George W. coo in Florida. But I would, I'm the the Green Party. Brave new world huh? First of all Gore won and Ralph Nader is right. There are a lot of Americans not fooled by the Corporate run government, IMF,  WTO, GATT, NAFDA etc. Pretty simple. Not easy to change. Like will the real Nazis minded people please stand up? I don't think we'll see that:-)

Remember, there we plenty of other people of other nations in the Twin Towers, too. It's not like this group are freedom defenders or something. They are the suffering and the hurt and should have had some method of being linked to some of that oil money and ability to rebuild on solid footing in that area without having to resort to drug traffic, child slvery, being body bombers, etc..You know. I don't have to tell you. Question: Where did all that oil money go? Trash for the rich as usual. Hmmmm solar? did I hear solar and wind power for Europe owned by the citizens of Afganistan? "We have a lot more solutions than problems." nader  Hey, I got my opinions here Dems and Reps:-)

Jay Jay

Hi All -

To Ashfo and others  - I'm not obviously anything.  What I wrote was that it was pure bunk that those planes would have been or could have been shot down (especially not over metropolitan areas) given the information that was available when it was available and the policy as it stood.  I also wrote that miliary missions are not always guided by adequate communication and intelligence for the purpose at hand - thus, mistakes are made. This is all in context of the concrete events of  9/11 and nothing else.   I didn't say anything about how I felt about my country or make any judgements as to my government's or military's actions abroad.

What I see as an American interacting with other Americans,  is extreme cinicism and distrust of government - in fact our culture is permeated with cinicism toward government, military, and business and institutions in general... the more beaurocratic the institution is, the more Americans are suspicious and fed up with it.  The American media make it their job to rake muck as it were where-ever they can find it, and that investigational focus whether based in fact or not dominates the news and papers.   Conspiracy theory message boards and other avenues of communication like radio and talk shows abound with second-guessing armchair political analysts often with no experience, sometimes with experience on some level or another, in the government, the military, and so on.  Discussions around the office copier and at the local coffee store are full of "threads" just like this one.  

And by the way - before anyone makes any kind of sweeping generalizations about what Americans know or what they are, I'd appreciate it if that person did some more open minded research of their own.  There are no typical people.  If someone looks like a stereotype to an observer - the observer is not looking closely enough.

KB

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kristen:
Hi All -

And by the way - before anyone makes any kind of sweeping generalizations about what Americans know or what they are, I'd appreciate it if that person did some more open minded research of their own.  There are no typical people.  If someone looks like a stereotype to an observer - the observer is not looking closely enough.

KB

---

It is an unfortunate fact that Americans are generally disliked the world over. Problem is, much of America doesn't realise that. Perhaps it would help if, rather than accusing others of being closed-minded, you would strive to become more open-minded yourselves.

I remember watching the broadcasts after the towers went down and the general consensus, amongst the populace, was utter confusion as to why anyone could depise Americans SO much that they would want to do such a thing; which many members of the European intelligentsia also find most confusing, as it's our general consensus that you finally got what has been coming to you for some time.

Yours,
Frank

Ashfo - glad you liked the article. Mark Elsis has done some professional research, and although I still have serious objections to some of his claims, I also agree that there are some honest questions that need answering. Nonetheless, a quality site (got all the CT's approval on these boards, Inguma included )

You guys should also check out http://www.fpa.org, which is an excellent source of foreign politics commentary, without the CT spin. Plus http://www.disinfo.com for some good CT research/theories.

Sadly, the thread is looking less and less like a debate - as for Frank's comment on America "getting what was coming to them", let me say that that has to be one of the most distasteful remarks on these boards yet, and if I happened to be American, I'd be using far more inflamatory words than that. The suggestion that large-scale civillian murder in any context is deserved, is abhorent. As for the integrity of European foreign policy - the notion's laughable! Invoking Article 5 means nothing when a gaggle of bickering nations constantly vaccilate over taking strong action of any kind, even against criminal dictatorships like Iraq. Especially when it's common knowledge that both France and Russia have been selling arms to Saddam for years!!!  I can't think of any other region in the world that lacks more economic and political leadership that the EZ right now. And as for Europe's *alleged* distate for Americans, you might want to wake up to the same sentiments about Europeans - particularly the British and French.

G,day all

Hey Daniel,you must think you've started your own little world war in here,with everyone having their own opinion on how things are.Lucky it is only the chat component of this site & lucky it's somewhat a peaceful forum here,but it's probably good we all get our ideas out there so that ourselves & others might learn more through others experiences & the links they might post.

Check out this sites forum,theres a whole forum just on September 11 & check out the post on "Breaking News",an example of how the wording of a post or just the words Bush, develops into 11 pages of arguements & some good links,but it's just good to see how other people think,people who are not so spiritually involved.

http://www.guerrillanews.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/postlist.pl?Cat=&Board=state

if that doesn't work go to
http://www.guerrillanews.com/

Joe I'm not sure how much faith you put into Associated Press,but while they are supposedly non profit,their journalists are made up of the same ones in the mainstream papers,it's just that they are all getting together under one roof for one purpose.I read NEXUS magazine & sure they have some pretty far out topics & things that mainstream media & universities wouldn't exactly reference,but most of the articles are outside general public exposure. Most topics  that has been posted in here at Astral pulse are not exactly mainstream beliefs but are written about in NEXUS as well as are most of the OBE 'ers & R.Ver's stories that don't make it through mainstream media.I personally don't fully trust them,the same as any other media  resources, I believe everyone needs to cross check at least 3 sites with opposing views & then make my own decision.

Also on the subject of short selling,I didn't see the article in NEXUS on the short selling, I'll have a look around for it,but I thought the method of short selling involved speculating that a particular stocks price will fall,so me for example would ring my stock broker (if I had one,which I don't,what a waste) & ask to short sell a particular stock at a high price,he borrows the shares of a third party who isn't likely to sell soon,sells them to you with his commission,then when the stock falls in price you sell it back when you think it's fallen far enough & take the profit difference between the initial stock price & it's new price,paying tax on the sale & a commision to the broker,the third party only a problem if they want to liquidate their stocks,then the loan must be repaid.

Yes Kristen,there are a lot of conspiracy theorists out there,alot without experience,but if you keep an eye on them you pick up a fact or good lead every now & then,I think it's important to not just read mainstream media & accept what they & universities say is first class info or the right one to be watching.

I don't believe any of us have the supreme access to the right info & so,we can only read as many different opinions as we can & just don't commit to one view until more facts present themselves.We all have the duty to investigate for ouselves the evidence being presented & the possibility of bias.

Peace all & good journeys

G'day Mobius,

RE: AP - they're a news brokerage ("wholesaler") that a lot of the large media houses use - BBC, CNN, many newspapers, etc. They typically have reporters on the ground earlier than most others - and reported much of 9/11 as it broke. Yes, they are established journalists like everyone else, not sure of non-profit though!?

The NEXUS article was the one Ashfo posted, but the short-selling bit was only one example in their piece. You're spot on with short-selling method, although that method is typically only for very short time frames (1 day or so). A put option is the usual method for punting on stock devaluation.

And I sincerely agree with your last point. In a great debate, there is a dearth of evidence and good arguments on both sides. As you say, the most we can do is make our best judgement, and we all assess things differently. However, I feel strongly that there should never be room allowed for inflammatory or insulting material.

All the best mate!

Joe

Mobius- I am always glad to let people voice their opinions...

The fact of the whole Sept 11 matter is complicated, but at the same time I do believe that it all comes down to good and evil.  Of course the US is not innocent, every country commits horrible transgressions behind closed doors and these acts are fueled by hate and self-interest.  

What happened on Sept 11, however, cannot be justified by anyone who is not a murderer or a liar.  The bottom line is this: even if the US were completely honest and good, ie. they didn't start/fund coup's, didn't meddle in the affiars of other countries, etc. someone or some group somewhere would still come over and do something horrible because of pride, greed, hate, jelousy, etc.  

I am at work or I would write more....until next time....

love to all!
-D.T.

fides quaerens intellectum

I can't see what your fuss is about, Joe.

Surely, common sense tells you that if you continue to play with fire, and *repeatedly* ignore the warnings, one day you are going to get burnt in a *big* way.

I read in the newspapers, just this morning, that the UK will almost certainly suffer reprisals for their US support. Bombings in London, perhaps? Oh well, us lot living in and around London are kinda used to bombs blowing up office blocks, and so forth. The IRA have been doing that, on and off, for years!

IRA activities were tightly surpressed in this country by our strict Anti-Terrorism laws. So, what they did was, present themselves to the good old US of A as "freedom fighters".

They ran US-based funding rallies and all that jazz. Then, using the USD they raised, they bought Semtex explosives in Libya and used it to launch their bombing campaign on the British and Irish mainland. In the process, hundreds of innocent lives were lost, together with billions of pounds worth of damage to property.

The thought has long since been with me that if the US are indulging in such double-dealings with their (so called) allies, then God knows what they get up to in the 3rd world countries.

Remember, you cannot ignore the Piper's song... that day, WTC just happened to be heading the bill.  

Yours,
Frank

Speaking about foods, have the ´Swedish´ (discovered here like a month ago, at first it said it would cause MAJOR eating habits throughout ALL of the world, but it doesn´t seem to have up here so why abroad?) alarm reached where ever you are all from, about a chemical named Acrylamid (at least here it is named that) being created when you heaten up carbohydrates to very high temperatures...    so briefly, apparently, for example french fries & potatoe snacks (thsoe two are said to be the worst) are said to be VERY dangerous - causing all sorts of disturbances like cancer etc., because of the potatoe (carbohydrates) in these products are being heated up to a very high degree.....    Cooked products (pasta, potatoes etc) wasn´t said to be dangerous, but it was a big deal up here the first few days, then it kinda faded...  but clearly, potatoes being fried, baked or whatever IS dangerous, so something for you to consider and perhaps look up if you haven´t heard about...   I know, alarms come all the time and most doesn´t care anymore, but this one was out of the ordinary...
  Heard about it eh´?


Grenade01; "Hey speaking of poultry, did you see the genetically altered featherless chicken thats been getting all the animal rights attention? Lol that thing looks funny as hell."
   What do you mean, funny as hell??´   Ain´t following you on that one.....
     If I got hold of the responsible for crimes like that, one on one in a remote place, well...  let me out it this way, perhaps I would close my eyes before the fact that their Karma would make sure justice being done in the future....


Butter - it is well known that Sweden has the best butter, that´s me being patriotic ;)      Not that I understand why anyone would eat butter volountary, don´t we get enough fat in our system??´

    Be well amigos //Qui-Gon




- Your focus determines your reality -

Hi Richard! I heard about the acrylamid thing- the first thing that came to my mind was potatoe chips.. so I whent down to ICA and bought a bag of Estrella souercream and onin... mmmm

-- Love is the Law - Love under Will --

Frank -

Americans are closeminded?  What specific behavior are you referring to?  Do you have any concrete examples you can site about what an American has done that is by definition closeminded and that then can be generalized to the entire population?  If you can, then I'll find an example of that same or similar behavior from a person of another country.  Are you game?

By the way - I think it might be worthwhile to distinguish between a nation's populace and its government and/or its military - for any nation. The populace of any nation may not necessarily have signed off on what its government, its military or what its business institutions do. Thus, to say "you Americans" are thus and so, (using a national entity's actions abroad)  is to behave as ignorantly as someone who says "you Arabs" are thus and so, or all "you Nigerians" are thus and so for example.

I would also venture a guess that you may not have studied your own country's history or European history, or the history of the Ottoman empire, or that of China, or Japan, or Egypt..... and so on and so forth.  If you have studied enough world history it seems to me you might be conveniently not seeing some distinct and repeating patterns of empire building that cut across nations, cultures, and time.  

That is that hust about every government of every nation with a significant enough economic/military power base - now and throughout history - exploits and manipulates other nations and even its own populace, or attempts to.  Your government  does it too - albeit with less power than it used to, but it does.  This is not a value judgement or an endorsement by the way.

Now - I say to anyone - if you're not going to like an individual person, or if you're going to be resentful for some reason - instead of repeating vaguely understood nationalistic dogma, why not be accurate and relevant - make your dislike about a specific behavior or character trait that you have had occasion to actually witness or experience.  If you do this, it might be worthwhile to ask yourself if this behavior or trait is human rather than American or Arab or Christian or Muslim or whatever (i.e...you might be capable of it too)....  if you still want to be incensed and resentful then at least you are trying to be somewhat intelligent about it.

In any event, the bottom line for me is that American citizens did not deserve 9/11 any more than the citizens of Kuwait deserved being invaded by citizens of Iraq; or , deserve it more than any nation so troubled deserved being conquered by the British, or than Pakistani citizens deserve to be fired upon by Indian citizens, or that the Vietnemese deserve having thier country occupied by the French....  do you get it Frank?

Does anyone get it?

KB

Well, it's been awhile since I've posted on this ever-growing and changing thread.

Firstly, to whoever it was that made such a disrespectful and untasteful comment stating that Sweden has the best butter... well, how can that be so when NZ is greater at everything than anyone else in the world? Patriotism aside, of course..

Kristen.. my first post wasn't meant to anger you, I was just making a generalization that most Americans are more patriotic and close-minded than most other nationalities... which of course you refute :)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kristen:
Frank -

Americans are closeminded?  What specific behavior are you referring to?  Do you have any concrete examples you can site about what an American has done that is by definition closeminded and that then can be generalized to the entire population?  If you can, then I'll find an example of that same or similar behavior from a person of another country.  Are you game?

---

That logic is rather flawed as you could say Swiss butter is bad (hehe) because one cow died prematurely. My generalizations are based on much more than one example - they are based on every single American I have ever met. And I agree, generalizations they are, as a small percentage of Americans have a very open mind and think for themselves, but the larger portion of the population doesn't. You can say it's all very well that I have only ever met perhaps several hundred Americans and therefore have no right to generalize the entire population, but that doesn't fit. Becuase every other person I know who has had dealings with Americans (except Americans of course) feels exactly the same way as I do, and all those I have talked to have talked to others who feel exactly the same way. It's like "global knowledge". I might also add that it's ironic how you are arguing against your countries own close-mindedness by refusing to accept whatever we say :P

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kristen:
In any event, the bottom line for me is that American citizens did not deserve 9/11 any more than the citizens of Kuwait deserved being invaded by citizens of Iraq; or , deserve it more than any nation so troubled deserved being conquered by the British, or than Pakistani citizens deserve to be fired upon by Indian citizens, or that the Vietnemese deserve having thier country occupied by the French....  do you get it Frank?

---

I entirely agree that the general American citizen doesn't deserve this, but to provide an exaggerated example for you I'd point out that the Nazis didn't take charge without the average Germans support. The whole issue is rather moot anyway as the attacks were perpetrated by someone inside the US.


I'm not going to reply to any pro-American/anti-American posts as I can quickly see this degrading into something rather disgusting :P

- Ashfo

Okay, Kristen, let me get this straight.

So if what you say is true: I am to believe that the American people repeatedly continue to democratically elect a government that repeatedly continues to act contra to the needs and wishes of the majority who elected them?

I think not somehow.

Moreover, I rather think it is not so much a matter of, as you state, conveniently "not" seeing distinct and repeating patterns of empire building that cut across nations, cultures, and time.

The fact of the matter is: ordinary citizens ARE beginning to see such things. Not only that, we are crying enough!

Follow virtually all trails of world terrorism and you will find US government funding somewhere in the recent past.

Do I get it, Frank? Yes, I get it only too well: what you call "foreign policy" a large percentage of the rest of the world calls... American Imperialism.

But please don't get me wrong. You speak about my being "resentful" and so forth. No, not in the slightest. Such a thing has not one jot of emotional effect on me. I am merely a lifelong observer, doubly fascinated by the sheer irony of it all.

Funny how you should mention about Kuwait and Iraq.

You will no doubt remember the time when the US and Saddam Hussein were the best of friends. Well, you should do as it was around a billion of *your* tax dollars that funded, trained and armed Saddam Hussein to the teeth in the 1980's. In the United States' war (err, sorry, Saddam Hussein's war) with Iran.

However, it was only when Saddam Hussein, using basically the same American-funded army that he had previously used to demolish Iran, invaded Kuwait (thus threatening American petroleum supplies) that Bush snr. suddenly began a rhetoric of hate against Saddam.

A rhetoric fuelled primarily by American corporate greed.

But Saddam Hussein is just one of the *many* dictatorships the US has trained, armed and supported.

Dictatorships such as Saudi Arabia (humungeous oil reserves), Kuwait (big oil reserves) Indonesia (vast oil, gas and timber reserves together with vast supplies of all kinds of mineral resources) and Zaire (key country in the *vast* mineral-rich region of central Africa). To name but a few.

To any normal, right-thinking person, this must *surely* beg the question: How come the USA always seems to be involved in arming, training and funding the biggest terrorists of the decade?

Answer: It's a basic 1, 2, 3 strategy...

1) They fund, train and arm the dictatorship.

2) The dictatorship keeps the people's voices surpressed.

3) American corporations then mine the countries of their oil, gas and mineral wealth for a pittance of what it should truly cost.

Fact is, you've been playing this strategy for around 50 years. A strategy that has made America the richest, most powerful country in the world.

However, in your wake is the devastation caused by the loss of millions and millions of lives. Together with the countless billions of dollars worth of damage to property. Not only that, there are the tens of millions of people that have been (and currently are) subject to a life of crippling poverty and disease.

As such, slowly but surely, Americans are being made welcome in fewer and fewer countries in the world. Fact is, hatred of America, and to a certain extent their allies (notably Britain) increases significantly, year by year.

To a passive observer, such as myself, It was only a matter of time before such mass hatred would boil over and begin to fuel revenge-based attacks. The warning signs have been ever so clear. Yet, for the most part, they are either not seen (or are simply ignored) by the American populace.

Whether America "deserved" to suffer the devasting effects of September the 11th is not for me to fathom. But, as I say, if you continue to play with fire, and continue to ignore the warnings, one day you will get burnt.

Think of the horror as those buildings were hit: the panic; the fright; the fear; the sheer sense of dread; the knowing that you are going to die; the searing pain of being burnt alive; the crippling loss of life; the years of sorrow; families torn apart; all those loved ones that will never be seen again.

All that horror, in such a small space of time!

And only about two cruise-missiles worth. The very same missiles your military fires in their hundreds at other people's buildings, in other people's countries. What's that? You only fire them at military targets? Hmm, funny how I remember bunkers full of women and children blown to pieces in Bagdhad; the civilian train in Belgrade; oh and the Chinese embassy that got demolished, to name but a few.  

The thought did cross my mind, what these people may have been trying to graphically demonstrate, is exactly what it is like for *you* to be on the receiving end for a change... rather than them.

Or maybe they were trying to give you a real-life example of the sheer extent of the suffering *millions* of people in the 3rd world have to endure, often on a daily basis.

Is the supply of cheap gasoline really worth all those lives?

Yours,
Frank

Greetings all, One thing to say,  thank God I live in the land down under

Regards  Steve

How can you say American corporate greed?  All governments essentially contain corporate greed.  A government is pretty much set up to protect the rights of its own people, and to fuel its economy so that it can come out ahead of other countries.  It's like a giant game of monopoly, and whether you want to admit it or not, nearly every government in the world plays the game.  If you dont admit that, then you are a hypocrit in every sense of the word.  We live in a crappy world where survival of the fittest prevails, and even though it would be nice if it were otherwise, this is the way it is.  I hate the fact that my country has capitalized on other people to gain its power and authority, but you cant put someone in such huge shoes, and tell them not to step on anyone elses toes.  People are corrupt. Its human nature and no matter whos government it is, its going to be like this if your in these positions.  I probably sound like a very ignorant, uncaring person when I say this, but I assure you I am not.  I love everybody equally, and I understand and forgive anyone who might hate me or have negative emotions towards me because I live in America.  Most Americans either don't agree with, or don't even understand half the stuff that goes on in politics. (Me included to some extent)  But you cant make things so black and white and say they did this so they are bad or we did this so that makes us good, because there is always a context to which anything is done. Some decisions are bad, others are a gamble that dont turn out in our favor, but most of us just want the same things you want.  We just want to earn our money so that we can support our families, and live life.  It's perverse to say that anyone would deserve to die, or that anyone would be even halfway just in making an offensive decision which would harm other people (US included).


Qui-Gon Jinn: I do think that whoever made that featherless chicken was pretty messed up, and I dont condone it at all...But you got to admit, it does look funny.  :-)  Sorry if I came across the wrong way though, because I'm all for animal rights and I don't want to make a joke out of something like that either.




[][][] <-- boxes --> [][][]

i is just because of the complexities of the world and who does what for what reason that i really focus on my own spiritual search. i try to stay informed but i realize there is a lot of manipulation going on. as the dali lama says- i dedicate the fruits of my spiritual practices for the enlightenment of all

Hi Steve -

HA... you lucky guy.  

Hey Ashfo-

You might change your mind about the closemindedness thing if you came to the US for a prolonged visit.... there are an awful lot of different kinds of folks here from as many races and cultures as there are races and cultures, all with different political views and varying degrees of support of lack of it, for the government, or the "American way," or whatever,  who are ready, willing, and able  to say just exactly what they think, privately or publically, whether the government or anyone else would agree with it or not. Some of the most strident voices currently opposing the Bush administration for example, are in government - as has always been the nature of our system.  Also, I suppose you realize that world-wide anti-American sentiment occurs because of the dynamics of power?  I would suggest that if it were Sweden for example that was playing the world field to the extent that America does, that Sweden might be resented the world over, and that if a Swedish citizen had opportunity to be confronted and burdoned with such a weightily preloaded dynamic that they might also take a defensive stance.   Also, please understand that my argument here is that 9/11 was not just, as anything anywhere of such a nature is not just; no matter by what country its instigated; and,  that Americans are not blind to what their government does, at least if they can spare some space in their minds for the content on the BBC or CNN and so forth.   As is true with any population, there are degrees of intelligence, education, and interest in world events.  Your theory about from where the attacks were instigated is just a theory, (albeit quite interesting) and comparing the American populace to the German populace during the Nazi's regime is really  despicable.

Frank -You have not comprehended my intent in what I wrote.   Everything you've cited is commonly available through media outlets; and, as I said, every government in the world who can, does the same thing, however many try to hide that fact with more success.  I don't appreciate your use of "you" when (I assume) you refer to America in general, just as I assume some poor bloke from Britian may not appreciate being called to the carpet for the actions of the IRA.

It seems to me that both of you may be more interested in painting me with a bloody brush instead of really listening to what I'm saying.  I'm not going to play straw man, or scapegoat apologist.  Its useless.

Heh, well... couldn't resist replying :P

I used Nazi Germany as an exaggerated example of how a corrupt/unjust government needs the support of the average citizen to exist, not to make comparisons between Nazi Germany and the USA.

I just think the evidence stands for itself. If Americans weren't close-minded they would see that the evidence (which I might add is freely available) points directly to their own Government regarding Sep 11. But they don't want to think this. They are happy, they dont want change. If on the otherhand the majority were open-minded they would see the injustices their nation has performed and the people would do something.

I partly agree with you that the "superpower" will be disliked simply because of their position, but in the USAs case it is more than that. It is hated because of the sickly greed it displays in desire for an unneeded commodity - Oil.

quote:

---

Rise, Rise
Corruption Undisguised
Rise, Rise

Confronting With Our Minds
Destroying All The Lies
Unmasked By Purity

---

- Ashfo

Comparing the USA to Nazi Germany is really not as far out as many would believe - the Patriot act effectively gives Bush near dictatorial powers. Not many people know this - including many members of Congress, who basically signed it without reading past the 2nd page, it was pushed so fast. If they didn't sign it, they would be labelled "unpatriotic". As is its rediculously stupid name. And to be labelled unpatriotic, in a country where 90% of the population supports then anti-terrorist campaign, is one hell of a big hammer. Some people say that Bush has legally more powers than Hitler, so we shall see where all this leads (somewhere dark and sharp I suspect). For me, I do not know, though i am starting to be able to back some of this up with referse speech ( eg Bush says "Our nations must spare no effort, at {preventing all forms} of proliferation" goes to "look thats your fault in Africa"....) - yes, I found that reversal, so not completely an armchair bitcher lol. And I have barely started. Me and Ashfo and going to set up a site with all the truth we can find, again, see where it leads.

It does not matter whether other nations would have followed a similar path, the hard truth is that the US has acted completely ruthlessly for too many years now. Karmically, the government is supported by the population, so what the goverment does, the general populace bears some of the debt for.

I do not believe it is human nature to at like this. Granted, it may be the nature of some people, but therefore it is the nature of an equal amount to oppose that view - just those people have been pushed underground. Power may currupt, but only to those who are not ready for it. A leader should be able to cope with and control such forces, which is where the american populace went so terrifyingly wrong in voting in Bush, I simply so not understand it, it is heredictory power, which goes against all the principles of democracy. It shocks and worries me deeply to see him in power. This, nobody can defend against. Then consider that 1% of the population controls 2/3rds of the wealth and you come out with a worrying picture

"the continuous consolidation of money and power into higher, tighter and righter hands" - Bush I

Inguma, check your PMs and email me back :)

- Ashfo

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kristen:
Frank -You have not comprehended my intent in what I wrote.   Everything you've cited is commonly available through media outlets; and, as I said, every government in the world who can, does the same thing, however many try to hide that fact with more success.  I don't appreciate your use of "you" when (I assume) you refer to America in general, just as I assume some poor bloke from Britian may not appreciate being called to the carpet for the actions of the IRA.

It seems to me that both of you may be more interested in painting me with a bloody brush instead of really listening to what I'm saying.  I'm not going to play straw man, or scapegoat apologist.  Its useless.

---

I both hear and comprehend what you are saying perfectly. It's just that the relative merits of the arguments have no real interest to me. As I say, it's the irony of it all that I find *doubly* fascinating. Especially where you say, "If someone looks like a stereotype to an observer - the observer is not looking closely enough." That was exquisite.

Yours,
Frank

Power corrupts, and Absolute power corrupts Absolutely.  This is true anywhere and everywhere, and can be exampled in so many ways that I would die before I named them all, and I would have missed all the ones that occured while I was listing them.  Hey, look, another one just happened.  Truth is, no matter what anyone does, you'll always end up with someone who doesn't agree, whether it's good, bad, or ugly.  You can please some of the people all of the time.  You can please all of the people some of the time.  BUT YOU CAN'T PLEASE ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME.  Anyway, I'm gonna spew one more piece, a quote very few of you may know.

"Though I may not agree with what you say, I will fight with my life for your right to say it."  (I think it's Thoreau.)  Americans are all for their own freedoms to do whatever they want, however they want, whenever they want.  They also cherish the freedom to not give a damn about anywhere else in the world.  We have the freedom to be ignorant, and too many people exercise that freedom on a daily basis.  And some people even more often than that.  We're free to be misled, misrepresented, misinterpreted, misunderstood, and mistaken for people who know about what goes on in the world.  But the truth is the average american is more content to drive his lexus to the gym just to sweat in a sauna with his stockbroker, then visit his mistress for his daily exercise, then return home to his wife and kids sweaty and tired, than research something he sees on the evening news.  Or at least that's the way we used to be.  Now enough people know how to use computers that the government actually has to withold information from the media, or pay them not to say things, instead of just puting a little bit of spin on them and leaving them alone to gather dust.  I'm still trying to find the other side of this whole september 11th thing.  I refuse to believe that whomever planned september 11th meant it to be the only part of their plan.  I want to know the connection between september 11th, chandra levy, enron, and andrea yates.  Because there has to be one.  I don't care if it's bumblebee tuna, I want to know that it exists, because I"m an american, and I have the freedom to pretend I know everything about everything.

Of course, none of that is my opinion, I just like having the right to say it.

--

"She was barely a teen
hangin' out inbetween
just a part of the scene...

With mercurial smile
and incurable style
she was only a dream..."
- Bad Religion "Sorrow"

Hi All -

Inguma -I admit I haven't read the specific papers your referring too. I'll have to do that - do you have some links?  I suppose you might have already posted them.... The point with "all nations do thus and so" is not to excuse the effects of empire building.  The point is to illustrate that America bashing is de rigueur.  Why spend time with the cheap distortion and lies available from other countries' wardrobes when you can pull something off the rack in America's closet?  This whole geopolitical dues ex machina is an entagled web - extricating America from it and waving it around like a bloody flag is just to be inaccurate.  Lets at least try looking  at the whole picture.

For example:
Ashfo - America is not the only country interested in safeguarding the supply of oil.  All industrialized countries have this interest - and get this - oil producing countries have a really vested interest in oil too.  Go figure aye?  Why do you suppose the American intervention in Kuwait was supported not only by Kuwait, but also by the Arab Emerites?  They were afraid they were next.

I have some  questions to anyone - as a world power - how do you propose that America behave responsibly toward other nations...

Should America be world cop?  Should it honor requests for military or economic intervention?  Or not?  Should it safeguard supplies of oil or not?  Should it attempt to stabalize regions of conflict?  Should it partner with European nations to affect economic growth in underdeveloped countries?   Should it become isolationist, refraining from participating in the outcome of conflicts? - Oh wait - that was what happened in WWI, and  WWII....  

The list is woefully inadequate but you get the idea - Come on folks - run the world for a day.  

Wow Eranos - I wish I were a typical American so I could afford a Lexus.  

- KB

A spanish documentary showed that the US has a training school for dictators located in the US.. This is qute an unsetteling thought. The people trainde in the US aply there deucation in latin america..
I have forgotten the exact fakts- but will try to check them up and update with a new post. After al, if it is  true, and I´m afraid it is, then the US governmetn actually are outright criminals- but then agin that´s not news now is it. In my opinion all governments with much power are corrupt- not only the US.
Money breeds corruption..

-- Love is the Law - Love under Will --

Kristen... "If someone looks like a stereotype to an observer - the observer is not looking closely enough." as I say, was exquisite, but, "Let's at least try looking at the whole picture"...  is the very definition of sublime.

When you boil it to the bone, it becomes obvious the incident over Kuwait was nothing more than the USA cleaning up its own mess. Having a "coalition force" was a grand tactical move. Albeit an extremely expensive one that cost US taxpayers billions of dollars. But the truth of the matter had to be camouflaged at all costs.

Right now, I'm scratching my head trying to fathom where you get some of your other ideas from: America as world cop? America running the world? I'd check your government isn't putting hallucinogens in your drinking water, if I were you.

For the past twenty years, European governments have been working in closer harmony. There is now a common currency that most EC countries have adopted. Plus, it is only a matter of time before the European Defence Force will be in place. (Much to the chagrin of Mr Bush, if all the fuss that eminated from that quarter, when the idea was first mooted, is anything to go by.)

Then it's goodbye NATO.

It is true that all governments, to some degree or another, whether currently or throughout history, have engaged in corrupt activities. However, America currently stands unique in that it uses its vast wealth and military might to fund dictatorships; arms them to the teeth, thus surpressing the voice of the people; while American corporations rape the land of natural resources at a fraction of their true value.  

Many times this 3-step plan has backfired. Resulting in some spectacular side effects that caused horrendous loss of life and destruction to property. Though, up until September 11th, 2001, it had previously caused no significant deaths of American civilian lives, or damage to their property.

For about the past two decades, there have been a growing band of people who are crying: ENOUGH. The very fact that corruption does go on, is no excuse for allowing it to continue. As a result, US political support dwindles daily.

For example, the proposed war and/or invasion of Iraq appears to have been thwarted (for at least the time being) by the staunch refusal of both the French and German governments to support such action. Non-support from the French is always expected when it comes to situations regarding the USA. But the German government have been unusually vocal in their total non-support.  

NOTE: On foreign policy the rest of the countries in the European Union generally align themselves with France and Germany.

The British government, while traditionally supportive of the US, are having to face the fact the British people are turning against the idea of a fresh war with Iraq in droves. Many of us found it rather comical (journalists in particular) watching the prime minister nodding his head to Bush's plans, whilst knowing he had virtually no real public support.

"A smile that looked like the face of a glacier suffering the effects of global warming" was one columnist's description I thought particularly apt.    

Yours,
Frank

Kristen - the USA Patriot act can be found at:
http://www.defenselink.mil/dodgc/lrs/docs/PL10756.pdf
I have tried looking at it, but I wouldn't advise anyone else to bother - it is a huge pile of legal garbage to me

However for more informed info, and I haven't read much on this site, just stumbled over it, go to:
http://www.freeexpression.org/patriot.htm

Please realise though that I am not trying to bash america, more state how things are (or may be). America should not be world cop, and history proves this, when most times america has intervened militarily the end result is usually chaos, suffering and some sort of totalitarian regime. Take Sierra Leone as a good example, the head there installed by the US (and I believe, British), the end result = genocide. There should not be any world cops, countries should be allowed to decide on their own form of government, not just what the US approves of. Eg Cuba has a better child death rate AND life expectancy than America, yet still they are percieved as red scum and shunned. Let it go and let them be!
(however I am not saying countries should never be interfered with, only that it should be done with care and the actions decided on by a collection of responsible countries, if such an entity could exists)

Frank I am not sure what the EU has to do with this am afraid, at the moment we are divided and for as long as that lasts (at least another 10+years) we will not be as strong as America. Thus the US really is the biggest player on the world stage, and so they tend to do what they like.

Hi All -

Frank - how old are you and what's your educational background? If you don't want to answer I respect that, I just think that before I respond to your posts it might be a good idea for me to know for certain.

Hi Inguma - I appreciate the links and will give them a look-see....  

The dynamic you are referring to regarding ouside involvement in a people's/countries'  internal or indiginous affairs is certainly true for any country and across human history.   In recent history, the entire course of outside involvement in Vietnam is an excellent example of this - taking it a bit further back, so is the history of European/Western involvement in India, and Africa, as well as the Americas.

I would add, that in cases where any country or coalition of countires act as an intervening force - that its not like pulling apart two little kids who are beating each other up and sending them to their respective corners without dinner for causing an obnoxious disturbance.  Civil unrest and war is complicated, messy and sick.  It was sick and messy, it is sick and messy and will continue to be sick and messy in the future.  The forces that were at work before an intervention, are at work during it, and after it.  Just because America or any other country gets into the middle of something doesn't mean that there was not something already there to be gotton into the middle of, and that it won't exist when that country leaves.  To say that America or any other country is the first cause of strife in any other country's affairs' is to put no  responsiblity for agency on the governments or the populaces of the countries themselves.  

By the way, have you studied the politics of the world wars, and are you familiar with the UN?

For the record, Bush's push to invade Iraq again is in my opinion politically assinine.  I wish Cheney would sometimes just put duct tape over his mouth and hide him in a closet.  

as a us citizen i would definately be more of a isolationist, seems like we were going that way after vietnam. recently a past secretary of state gave a talk at uc-davis and was asked about our support of a dictator who had a poor record of  treating his people justly and the sec. of state said he was the lesser of two evils.  seems like that is still supporting EVIL.we should not be manipulating other countries.

I'm getting a little sick of this thread to be honest...

Kristen to me it seems you are grasping at straws. Of course the US hasn't personally started every conflict in recent times, but they have contributed hugely to several of the largest and many of the smaller.

In terms of your question - what should the US do with their wealth and power - I give you this answer:

To help their poor fellow human beings who are starving to death by the millions and have no way to rectify the situation themselves. To support all forms of advancement, be it scientific or spiritual, rather than suppress much of the information that is coming out about sciences like cold fusion because of their materialistic wants, e.g oil. To help those they have made suffer in countries such as Indonesia - which should, by rights, be one of the richest countries in the world because of their large mineral deposits and location in the world. Instead its one of the poorest because of globalization.

Blech.

- Ashfo

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"You are First Cause. You are a portion of the great energy. And you, yourselves are thought manifestations of what you think you are."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I spent last evening flipping through the Patriot Act. Darned scary if you ask me. They obviously must have had the bulk of the text already waiting in the wings and just needed the right depth of excuse.

And what a title: perhaps more apt would be something like "Emergency Powers and Procedures Act" or something to that effect. But no, they called it a Patriot Act. Thus having the effect of locking the masses into an emotive bind from square one.

Yours,
Frank

The funny side,

They say that illusion takes form, changes and disolves, and that reality always exists.
We are masters of illusion, and have all agreed to participate.

And the greatest illusion is that some have more than others and the war begins.
All the details are just the intensity level of the illusion.
The death and destruction serves a purpose, creates a need to try another method en mass.
Death they say is also an illusion, and when i obe, i feel i can survive outside my body.
So who is killing who?

Lets get out of that energy.
Paola.

Hi Ashfo -

Oh well... its been nice arguing with you : ).  If you feel like debating politics again I have one prerequisite request.... stay interested and curious.... If only because it looks to me like somewhere in there behind the cold fusion loop, you've got a a trillion other brain cells just begging to get a go

Take care,

Kristen

Hey!  Every once in a while I have to come and check in on the little monster I've created!

Anyway, I was just thinking about something the other day: what if we enjoyed "world peace?"  One things for sure, we would all have enough food....easily.  I don't know the stats (maybe someone else could enlighten us with details) but it's something like one state in the US could feed half of the world population if it had to.  I may be over-exaggerating grossly, but I do know that for the last five decades or so the US gov't has had to subsidize farmers because of the fact that we can simply produce more than enough food to feed our country.

I agree that the US should do more to help those citizens of other nations, and the gov't (we?) should do a lot less of the negative things we do outside the US that involve violence and decpetion in the name of self-interest, BUT the main thing is this: the leaders of most of those countries who need the most help and who are in the deepest have leaders who are CORRUPT and HOPELESS.  I remember when I was in junior high my friends and I would say things like, "We should just go take over in all of the those third world countries and make them be like us..."  Of course this was faulty thinking on my behalf, but what obligation does the US, UK, Australia, Germany and every other first world country have towards these people?  What do we do to help them?

For those of you who are against the US meddling in the affairs of countries in which genocide and violence runs rampant think the US should do?  Should we let people like Milosevich (I probably misspelled his name) go off and murder hundreds or even thousands of people?  

Where can we do today, this month, this year to help out places like Kenya and Sierra Leone?  


fides quaerens intellectum

Heh, well Kristen if you want to discuss the Sept 11 events I'd love to...

Go back and refute my claims, and let the war begin!

:P

I was just getting bored of the yay-America boo-America tit-tat discussion :)

- Ashfo

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"You are First Cause. You are a portion of the great energy. And you, yourselves are thought manifestations of what you think you are."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Hi Ashfo -

Good!  Remind me of your premise - do I have it right, that your postition is that  the events of Sept. 11 were puppeteered by Bush and/ or by some American national entity?  Or am I completely misreading you?  (also - I'm in a busy time right now - so bear with me as I try to find the time to check your sources).... please enlighten me with further links or readings....

Re the yeah America Boo America thing - please don't confuse my posts as defense of America.... feel free to confuse them as being attempts at painting a broad brushed perspective of underlying intricately intertwined patterns of human behavior existing from the beginning of recorded history irrespective of national boundaries.  Current political events can be understood as being historically "necessitated." To pull current events out of their context is to "truncate the range."  America is certainly not blameless as Daniel points out.  It most certainly plays the field it is in possession of.

As a relevent aside, (interesting to me at least - I chuckled).   There recently was a political cartoon printed in my local paper wherein a group of stylistically Darwinian  fish were taking their first steps onto dry land - two of the fish were beligerently sticking their tongues out at each other and one of the fish, (obviously irritated)  in the group turned around said something like "cut that out you guys!"  The punchline is that the narration of the cartoon was something like - " the beginnings of the Mideast conflict."

Here's a nice quote:  "A rational being belongs to the realm of ends as a member when he gives universal laws in it while also himself subject to these laws.
- Foundations of the Metaphysics of Morals Immanuel Kant  

Here's another question - Can a government by definition of its purpose enforce universal laws without breaking them?  In other words, are governments truly capable of being rational?  Let us assume that the definition of government includes the securing of an ideological agency.

KB

i do not think that one government can enforce universal laws. that is the problem now the u.s. is trying to be the judge and enforcer of this new world order without giving proof of who actually is responsible for 9/11. so a lot of people around the world are questioning why kill innocent people in poor countries and how is it really going to solve the problem? i think it just gives the evil ones more chances to recruit more oppressed people to get the crusades going again.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kristen:
Hi Ashfo -

Good!  Remind me of your premise - do I have it right, that your postition is that  the events of Sept. 11 were puppeteered by Bush and/ or by some American national entity?  Or am I completely misreading you?  (also - I'm in a busy time right now - so bear with me as I try to find the time to check your sources).... please enlighten me with further links or readings....

---

Right. I'm not saying they are actually pro-America, infact its unlikely, but they have some power within the US either as a secret government or a public position. Bush is a puppet and an actor.

//www.attackonamerica.net
//www.mycountryrightorwrong.net
//www.9112001.net
//www.september112001.net

 

quote:

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Here's another question - Can a government by definition of its purpose enforce universal laws without breaking them?  In other words, are governments truly capable of being rational?  Let us assume that the definition of government includes the securing of an ideological agency.

---

Depends if you take the current legal system as being what the government tries to enforce. Depends if you take a Capitalist government or a Communist government. But does it really matter? I know you will argue "oh, so of course the US government is breaking its own laws, it simply has to." And even if that is so, does it have to break its own laws to the extent of killing 3000 of its own people and destroying the two largest buildings in NYC? Even if it was the government in the first place... which is unlikely.

- Ashfo


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"You are First Cause. You are a portion of the great energy. And you, yourselves are thought manifestations of what you think you are."
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G,day guys

Hey Ashfo, not sure if it's my computer but I can't get onto the links you posted, I know they exist as I have been onto the attack on america link before, so probably is my computer, no-one else had a problem?

Kristen, I remember reading that quote by Kant, but havn't got the book now, are you able to put the paragraph that was before that quote & the one after that quote, I love Kants work, but sometimes it sounds like rhetoric that can be a bit confusing. Also have you got any URL's that I/we might not have come across that supports your view, always good to see another point of view.

Looks like Bush has enough trouble from his political opponents at the moment, who I,m sure would love to see him go down, so we will see some interesting backstabbing going on soon it seems.

Good journeys all

Mobius

Hi All -

Mobius - unfortunately I haven't been using the internet for resources for the views I've stated - I've been using highschool, college, history/philosophy/political textbooks, literature of all kinds - fact, ficition, biographies, newspapers, news commentary, documentaries, etc... as well as remembered lived experience, some second-hand tales from folks who've been there (my dad was a career Airforce officer/my husband was an enlisted Army man for a short stint - was in Panama and Kuwait) plus I've been alive for a bit of time and travelled just a bit and known lots of folks and seen a few sights.... I can't really dredge it all up and site it concretely  

Re the links - I'm getting dns errors - the last two are Astraldynamics urls?

The Kant quote you've requested is long.... and I think your memory is serving you well if you are about to go where I think you might with this...

"By "realm" I understand the systematic union of different rational beings through common laws.  Because laws determine ends with regard to their universal validity, if we abstract from the personal difference of rational beings and thus from all content of their private ends, we can think of a whole of all ends in systematic connection,  a whole of rational beings as ends in themselves as well as of the particualr ends which each may set for himself.  This is a realm of ends, which is possible on the aforesaid principles.  For all rational beings stand under the law that each of them should treat himself and all others never merely as means but in every case also as an end in himself.  Thus there arises a systematic union of rational beings through common objective laws.  This is  a realm which may be called a realm of ends (certainly only an ideal),  because what these laws have in view is just the relation of these beings to each other as ends and means.

A rational beings belongs to the reallm of ends as a member when he gives universal laws in it while also himself subject to these laws.  He belongs to it as sovereign when he, as legistlating, is subject to the will of no other.  The rational being must regard himself always as legistlative in a realm of ends possible through the freedom of the will, whether he belongs to it as member or as sovereign.  He cannot maintain the latter position merely through the maxims of his will but only when he is a completely independent being without need and with power adequate to his will.

Morality, therefore, consists in the relation of every action to that legislation through which alone a realm of ends is possible.  This legislation, however, must be found in every rational being.  It must be able to arise from his will, whose principle then is to do no action according to any maxim which would be inconsistent with its being a universal law and thus to act  only so that the will through its maxims could regard itself at the same time as universally lawgiving.  If now the maxims do not by thier nature already necessarily conform to this objective principle of rational beings as universally lawgiving, the necessity of acting according to that principle is called practical constraint, i.e., duty.  Duty pertains not to the sovereign in the realm of ends, but rather to each member, and to each in the same degree.

Ralphm - by "this new world order," do you mean the "war against terrorism?"

Ashfo - I actually came across some bits of opinion that sound like pieces of truth to me -  that what the American administration was doing prior to 9/11 was attempting to  negotiate  with the Taliban in order to place an oil pipeline in Afghanistan - interesting if true if we are going to suppose that information regarding terrorist threats were being suppressed rather than not taken seriously enough - an old school airplane highjacking might be viewed by some organizations as acceptable risk or loss - although I don't have the political imagination to figure why suppressing such info would be helpful.

Here's another quote -

SOCR.  And do you mean to say, Eurthyphro, that you think that you understand divine things and piety and impiety so accuralty that, in such a case as you have stated, you can bring your father to justice without fear that you yourself may be doing an impious deed?
- Euthyphro

Oops.

The sites are without the astralpulse forum thing.. just www.mycountryrightorwrong.net etc etc....

dunno what it did that :)

- Ashfo

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"You are First Cause. You are a portion of the great energy. And you, yourselves are thought manifestations of what you think you are."
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Thanks Kristen

I might have remembered what he was talking about there (Kant) but I forgot how intense he is & the size of the paragraph's. So sorry for asking you to type that up while you are busy & I wont pursue philosophy on this thread as it is allready confusing enough trying to work out the real reasons & motives the perpetrators of 9/11 might have had.

Ahh, ok Ashfo, will give those links another try.

Australia is doing it's bit in trying to secure oil assets too & recently held ceremonies for the Nauru people, smiling & pretending to be real mates to the Nauru people, but never seem to discuss the fact that Australia has dumped refugees on the Nauru people & convinced them somehow to let them have control of it's oil deposits. Sure, they probably don't have the means to set up their own oil platforms & will get pay off's for Australia having access to their oil fields, but I wonder how many of them know who will benefit out of this deal the most, or maybe they can't do anything about it & are just being bullied into towing the line. Another bit of trivia, I heard on the radio a couple of days ago that said something like Nauru had the most amount of banks per capita in the world & had something like 1 bank for every 10 people, another little tax haven.

Good journeys all

Mobius

Folks,

I just spent the afternoon reading this thread.  Probably a weird way to spend a lovely Saturday evening, but I had to see what all the fuss was about.

It's obvious from the length of this thread that so many of us felt 9/11 deeply enough to want to express themselves about it . . . but it's also obvious to me that none of us are going to get anywhere by reading conspiracy theories, blaming people or countries, spouting political opinions, dueling with half-facts, or quoting the philosophical rants of dead people.  And all I can say as an U.S. citizen is . . . The United States is the only country where most of the poor people are FAT.  Think hard about what that means, for better and for worse.

I became a BBC and  National Public Radio junkie after the 9/11 attack, trying to understand and put the whole awful event into perspective.    I'm very close to this event and feel its repercussions every day. The only way, I've concluded, that we as individuals can reconcile this horrible reality is to look in the mirror at ourselves, and CHANGE OURSELVES.  

Because, trite as it sounds, every adult is responsible for the circumstances he or she finds him/herself in (i.e. you create reality, trite-but-true).   Pointing fingers at "them"  is an immature, non-spiritual way of looking at reality.  Them is YOU.  Yes, YOU are responsible for this post-9/11 world.  Even you over there  in Sweden.

I looked in the mirror tonight and cringed.  I am embarrassed now at how I pointed my fingers in disgust at the gas-guzzling SUVs driving up and down the NJ Parkway with American flags waving on their antennae . . . driven by stupid Americans who had no CLUE that their SUV said worlds more than their flags ever could.  Because I'm probably no better than they are . . . and neither are any of you . . . no matter what country you are from, because you created this reality too.

So, if you can at least accept that there is no "THEM" to blame, NOW what are you going to do with your lives?  For instance:

a)  you criticize Middle East policies . . . but how many miles per gallon does YOUR car get?   How many miles do you drive per year, and do you WHINE when the price of gas goes up?

b)  How do your daily behaviors, i.e, your shopping habits, your eating habits, your voting habits, your drug (?) habits . . .  put money in Al Qaida's pockets, directly or indirectly?

c) you criticize America . . . what of the corruption and evil that surrounds you in your hometown?  What are you doing about it?

d)  you say your butter tastes like chemicals and water . . . but do you buy it anyway? Do you, ugh, EAT it?

e) You are horrified by that creepy naked chicken on TV . . . but do you buy the cheapest chicken on the market with no thought to how it was bred or fed?  If so, soon you will be EATING creepy naked chickens.  Stick your nose in the air and call yourself a vegetarian, and I will ask you where your vegetables come from.  Do you know?

f) you despise politicians, and criticize what they do,  but have you ever told one how you felt?

g)  You say you hate corporate greed.  What do you do for a living?  Feed the corporate greed that you say you hate?  Do you buy their products?

h) when was the last time you did something to help the only true innocents this world has . . . children, animals, the environment?

I so enjoy getting responses to my posts . . . they're so rewarding! . . . but I think I'd be even happier to see this thread end in favor of a NEW topic (separate post). . . what are we doing to align our behaviors to our beliefs? What are we doing to CHANGE our this reality?  

Tisha

Well  Tisha, what can I say, I was halfway through writing a post with answers for your A-H statements/questions and i just deleted it. I know what I do. The important thing is you know what you have to do.

Regards  Steve

Hi All -

Tisha - spirited debate is what's happening here... conversations like this allow people to connect and exchange ideas - learn things - get inspired to look at things in different ways.... react to things in different ways... getting ideas out there and wrangling with them can build connections between ideas, clarify thought and can lead to action.  Political movements are built on ideas.  Political systems and law and society really rest on philosophy.  Its really no small thing.  

Now, about those dead philosophers.... may I suggest that you try to read something by a dead philosopher - and try to resist the urge to let your eyes gloss over and to nod off... there's lots of wisdom coming down through the ages - my first recommendation is one of my favorites and especially speaks to spiritual pursuit and enlightenment - Plato's Republic.

Take care,

Kristen

P.S.  "Why have you ever noticed that opinion without knowledge is always a shabby sort of thing?  At the best it is blind.  One who holds a true belief without intelligence is just like a blind man who happens to take the right road.  Isn't he?"
-Republic

Ug, Kristen, I'm a very educated, well-read person who has had ample time and willingness throughout the years to be inspired, amused, confused, and bored by some of the worlds most prominent philosophers.  And my Jewish brother-in-law has his Masters in philosophy, and he teaches, so suffice it to say I've had more than enough philosophical debate to understand that most of it is philosophical one-up-man-ship (which one of us can remember the most theories and quotes?) and, well, something I call mental masturbation, intense brain activity that winds its way into . . . hopefully a "climax" . . . and then, nothing.

Philosophy does nothing unless you use the knowledge to change yourself . . . not the world "out there" but your entire reality.   None of us can really do anything about 9/11 or the fact that there is evil in the world (and don't you dare start listing the philosophical reasons why this is the case!).  All you can do is change yourself and in doing so change reality itself.

Your quotes and philosophical observations are interesting . . . they are sometimes even relevant and enjoyable, so keep them up, I don't mind at all.  My point is just . . . don't just live in your head, DO something.

Tisha

G,day Tisha

Well, this is only chat in here, an off the topic forum from the usual OBE's & as Kristen wrote, it's just an exchanging of ideas really. It hasn't got too long as I've seen some forums with up to 15 pages of replies, we are a third of the way on this one.

As far as the questions go, havn't much time for this, but will answer briefly anyway even though it's not all directed at me.

a)I have a 4 cylinder car that gets 500km out of a full tank & walk quite a fair bit, if I had access to a free energy device that can power cars productively I would use it & applaud the efforts of free energy scientists who fight against huge power corporations for patents. The mentality of the people in power are from the baby boomer & above generation who still cling to the idea that a product must have a certain life span, preferably just after the warranty expires, oil fits this critique nicely & since most westerners depend on them for survival in a world where they can't live without money, it will continue as long as the executives want it too.

b) I try to shop as environmentally conscious as I can & purposely alienate products that have bad press with the wider public, use the same plastic bags every week, I don't eat foods that are GMO's & don't shop in places with bad human rights abuse records. The only drugs I take are pharmecutical drugs which I need to sustain life at a reasonable standard & they are all owned by American companies who admit to rediculous prices & profits but say the reason is that they need to fund experimental research that might turn out to be a dead end.

c) I'm well aware of what my own country gets up to &  I am even more passionate about exposing political deceptions & scams at home as I can't do much about you guys from over hear. Funny you should say what am I doing about it, I recently closed a case I had with the tax department over returns & lost funds, did very nicely thanks, also I have a supreme court action in process at the moment & is being negotiated at present.

d) I thought the butter thing was a light hearted dig, to break things up a little.

e)From what I saw of the t.v coverage, most people including the ones on this forum were opposed to it's existence. There is a free range farm 3km from where I live, mmmmmmmm.

f) Personally I have had the chance to confront a politician, I told him I didn't vote for him & his re-election was rigged. He smiled & shook my hand & said I'll try a bit better this time around. A month later he was in jail for child molestation charges & is serving a 15 year sentence, Bill Darcy. Countries are run by governments that are elected on a 51% majority and deals made with minor parties to secure that 51% majority, meaning 49% of the country don't want the guy speaking for them or running the country for them, most countries experience vote rigging to enforce that particular parties chances of election. Most people these days know that politicians have power,but only political power, which is highly influenced by what big buisness wants.

I,ve got to cut things short here, gotta go, but see no reason to try and forget what has happened with 9/11, choosing to move on with solutions. I agree with your solution but some people really do think the past is the past, I've personally learnt that like me, courts don't believe the past is just the past & should forget about perpetrators of these crimes otherwise there is repeats, because they think they can get away with it again.

Physical & Astral peace too you all

Mobius

Hi Tisha -

Oh my.  Well I never!  Mental masterbation aye?  Sometimes even relevent aye? Dare not quote philosophy as to why such and such is the case you say?   I think I shall throw a tantrum!

So "miss put your mouth with your money is or shut up"  - what have you done to make the world a better place?

That's a real question....


Kristen

"oh boy" I've just realized why i'm single

Regards Steve

Geez, I need to put more smiley-faces in my text, I'm coming off as angry when I'm only earnest    .  When I get on my soapbox its mostly to "Save the World," not to indulge in knee-jerk ego-driven rants.  Sometimes I succeed better than others!

tish

jeez
this thread is still goin? hahah

[][][] <-- boxes --> [][][]

What have I done?  What have I done, ahhhhhhhhhhh! jk

Actually, we can philosophize ourselves to death, liiterally...therefore I agree with Kristen, at the end of the day we need to ask ourselves, "What have I done to make the world a better place?  What have I done to better myself?"  I love to philosophize and conversate, however and that is why I love this forum and spoecifically this thread.

fides quaerens intellectum

It really bothers me that the media, thanks to the personal agendas of certain political figures, are trying to place blame on Bush and others.  Of course in retrospect we all wish that certain warnings would have been taken more seriously, but that's attributed to hind sight.  Only one group is responsible for what happened on Sept. 11: the terrorists themselves.  


fides quaerens intellectum