Take it easy guys.

[Summerlander]

Because we made it this far, war has always been in the universe. Its in animals and always will be.
After all how would we grow if nothing is challenging us?

WOW!!!!! GENIUS!!!!!! PURE GENIUS!^^^

We need a challenge. That's how we grow.

Good one, vinneh!

[Rudolph]

I'm really trying to keep my cool, but it's people like you that make war inevitable.

Your first reaction to a threatening situation is to kill, to retaliate.

The people that you keep referencing as terrorists are not terrorists.  They are EXACTLY like you.  We instigated, they are defending themselves.  End of story.

And if we are naturally inclined to war, how is the end scenario anything but total annihilation? 

Please keep your cool, since too much denial about the reality of inevitable conflict could drive one into the "Ned Flanders' Syndrome".

Actually it is people like me that prevent war.

Not one thing that I have said indicates that my first reaction in a threatening situation is to kill.

Those who fit the definition of "terrorist" really are terrorists. Deep Denial pacifists may not be able to accept this but that does not change the facts.

Humanity has pretty much done little other than make war. Peace is actually an anomaly. Yet we are still here in ever increasing numbers, despite almost nonstop war. Total annihilation would actually be counter inuitive at this point.

[Summerlander]

Humanity has pretty much done little other than make war. Peace is actually an anomaly. Yet we are still here in ever increasing numbers, despite almost nonstop war. Total annihilation would actually be counter inuitive at this point.

Interesting perspective.

[personalreality]

I'm sorry that my innate response is to avoid violence at all costs.

That doesn't make me a "deep denial pacifist" and I resent you constantly resorting to calling me that.

I'm not a pacifist.  I'm compassionate and recognize everyone's right to life, even if they don't agree with my ideology.  Everyone has a personal history and unique sets of circumstances that create the person they are.   Those psychopaths you mention, they have personal history that led them to that point, they don't have to be inherently evil.  Maybe they're mentally ill and never received proper treatment?

whatever.

I tried to make amends earlier, we aren't going to agree and we're just going in circles.  Seriously, let's stop and be friends. 

[Rudolph]

I'm sorry that my innate response is to avoid violence at all costs.

That doesn't make me a "deep denial pacifist" and I resent you constantly resorting to calling me that.

I'm not a pacifist.  I'm compassionate and recognize everyone's right to life, even if they don't agree with my ideology.  Everyone has a personal history and unique sets of circumstances that create the person they are.   Those psychopaths you mention, they have personal history that led them to that point, they don't have to be inherently evil.  Maybe they're mentally ill and never received proper treatment?

whatever.

I tried to make amends earlier, we aren't going to agree and we're just going in circles.  Seriously, let's stop and be friends. 

If your "innate response is to avoid violence at all costs" then it is a pretty safe guess that you are very close to being a pacifist. "At all costs"... hmmm, that cost gets very high, very fast.

I never called you a deep denial pacifist. But if the shoe fits....

You may not be a pacifist but much of what you say indicates that you are.

I'm compassionate too and recognize everyone's right to life too, until they turn into homicidal psychopathic terrorists, at which point they forfeit that right.

Everyone has a history. That is no excuse to turn into a homicidal psychopath. For every terrorist out there there are a hundred people with a nearly identical history that chose a decent lifestyle. Those who make excuses for the criminals only enable them further. I suspect that that is very bad karma (and not very compassionate).

[Xanth]

Let's try to keep the discussion focused around ideas and thoughts, rather than personal conjecture. 

[blis]

I reckon we've all probably been homicidal phycopaths at some point in our previous incarnations.

I dont always manage it but I strive for the same level of compassion that PR talks of.

I mean, say we're all on a path rising closer to god with each incarnation. The most wonderful, advanced, love-filled light being finally gets to the top and merges with god again. He's then got nowhere to go except back down to the very bottom and start the upward journey again. Become the lowest of the low.

Having lost all his memories this wonderful, loving light-being is now acting as a homicidal phycopath because he doesnt know it's wrong anymore. Isnt he now someone to be pittied just like a loved one with alzheimers who doesnt remember who they are anymore.

I try to remember that those behind me on the path were once ahead of me.

[Stillwater]

But I didn't want to put words in your mouth so I asked you directly, out of courtesy, twice -- and you still won't give a direct answer.

Then I apologize. I did not mean to be indirect- I try to address serious questions as I see them.

Why do you say "I am advocating not getting involved in unecessary wars"? No one is advocating for such insanity. Why advocate against something no one has said?

This point hinges on whether or not you view the Middle-eastern wars as necessary. Your statement is that no one is arguing for such insanity (meaning arguing for fighting in a war that is not necessary). Obviously no one is going to advocate a war that they themselves consider unecessary, but what a person themselves believes and what may be true in an absolute sense, or in the views of others, are very different things. Consider the situation if I hold the view that the Middle-eastern wars were not necessary, and you hold that they are. Then in this situation, from my perspective you would indeed be advocating for a war I deemed unnecessary. Since most people believe in the opinion they support publically, then what is required is merely a difference in opinion and perspective for this to be a true statement (that from one perspective you are arguing for a war that is unnecessary). I did not mention the perspective part, since perspective is inherent in any situation in our reality, but if you don't notice this fact about perspective, it is possible to mis-interpret the statement, I suppose.

There you go again. I never said anything about any pacifists out to get me.

It was a joke. You have mentioned pacifisim and your distaste for it perhaps a dozen times at this point. I was making a joke about the fact that no one has yet come out and identified themselves as a pacifist, but that you still mention it countless times. It was not intended as a serious remark.

There you go again. I did not say that these wars were not as bad as Vietnam or any other recent conflict and I presented no such argument to justify them.

I think the common thread in all of the points you made this post was in not recognizing context and implication in statements. You never mentioned the Vietnam conflict per se, but notice you did say this:

Every 170th soldier dies? That's like half a percent. I think relative to past wars that is almost zero.

Now when you make a comparative statement like this, saying that the percentage of deaths is almost zero, it only makes sense in context of comparison. For instance, if I said every 170th person on earth dies every minute, it would not make sense to retort that this was almost zero, since at that rate, everyone on earth is dead in under 3 hours or so. So to say that 1 in 170 is near zero in the case of war casualties, there must be another conflict you are comparing it to as a baseline, and if not Vietname per se, some other similar large-causualty conflict is implied. So while you did not mention a certain conflict, the structure of your argument necessarily made it implicit.

[personalreality]

If your "innate response is to avoid violence at all costs" then it is a pretty safe guess that you are very close to being a pacifist. "At all costs"... hmmm, that cost gets very high, very fast.

I never called you a deep denial pacifist. But if the shoe fits....

You may not be a pacifist but much of what you say indicates that you are.

I'm compassionate too and recognize everyone's right to life too, until they turn into homicidal psychopathic terrorists, at which point they forfeit that right.

Everyone has a history. That is no excuse to turn into a homicidal psychopath. For every terrorist out there there are a hundred people with a nearly identical history that chose a decent lifestyle. Those who make excuses for the criminals only enable them further. I suspect that that is very bad karma (and not very compassionate).

karma shmarma. 

you continue to ignore my attempt at amends, but if you plan to continue to post on this forum about other topics, i'd like us to be friends.  so, just as a final statement, i harbor no ill will toward you friend.  we're cool.  i look forward to future conversations with you.

[manwesulimo2004]

Wow. This thread is unreal. Feels a bit like a test by the mods.

[personalreality]

I swear I started it with the best of intentions.

How are you manwesulimo2004?  haven't seen you around in a bit.

[Rudolph]

So while you did not mention a certain conflict, the structure of your argument necessarily made it implicit.

No, it didn't. I had clearly made a general reference to previous 'wars' (note the plural).
You just made a bad assumption.

As far as unnecessary wars go, why don't you just ask me?
But "necessary" may be the wrong word for evaluating the act of war because I think the data required to arrive at that conclusion is usually not available. Maybe you could give an example of a 'necessary' war and explain how you arrived at that conclusion.

[Stillwater]

But "necessary" may be the wrong word for evaluating the act of war because I think the data required to arrive at that conclusion is usually not available.

That is certainly true. We don't have the "God's eye" perspective of the situation that develops decades later at the time it would be critical to make a decision. World War ll, which is the classical example most cite for the "just war", was not known to be the same situation in the 30's when it was building as we later found it to be. We had general notions that Hitler wanted to promote a powerful campaign of eugenics, but it is debatable how much of the holocaust was know about before it was encountered first hand; most of the officers invading the German camps had heard intimations of what might have been happening, but were not expecting the enormity of what they actually encountered. When the full picture is known, we see that Hitler intended to exterminate all of Africa as well, and then precede on to Asia South America; it was doubtful whether they would have even spared the Japanese.

Maybe you could give an example of a 'necessary' war and explain how you arrived at that conclusion.

The criteria I would use would be an ethical evaluation. What are the costs of the war we are considering, in human terms? What does our current data tell us will likely happen should we not become involved? What action would our potential opponents be allowed to take? How many non-offending parties (our soldiers, as opposed to those instigating the particular conflict, if it was pre-emptive, and civilian bystanders and targetd victims) will come to harm as a result of going to war, vs staying out of it? Will the potential opponent be placed in a position to cause significant harm in the future if left to their own means?

These factors must be weighed from an ethical standard for me, and we must choose the path that will cause the least harm, and potential for future harm to parties which did not instigate violence. Sometimes that means war, sometimes that means staying out. In the example of the Middle-Eastern wars, the harm inflicted upon civilians is far in excess of any projected harm those we claim to pursue have shown themselves capable of, and it is debateable whether our prescence there has even deterred them anyhow. You can make the argument that we might not have forseen that prior to taking action, but having the facts we have now, we have far from hastened our withdrawal.






If pressed to think of a war that best meets the standards that would ethicly dictate when we should be involved, I would choose the Sudan genocides. Here is an example of a mass killing of 400,000 or more of an ethnic group by un-resisted agressors, and we have provided the most passive and impotent assistence imaginable.

[Rudolph]

If pressed to think of a war that best meets the standards that would ethicly dictate when we should be involved, I would choose the Sudan genocides. Here is an example of a mass killing of 400,000 or more of an ethnic group by un-resisted agressors, and we have provided the most passive and impotent assistence imaginable.

Then the Iraq war would qualify as an ethical war. Saddam murdered 400,000 of his own people by some estimates and the killing was ongoing. More mass graves continue to be found. Who knows how high this number may rise?

[Stillwater]

Yes, it defintly can be argued that the Iraq war began on just footing; Saddam was not a nice guy. But it did not need to continue for a decade, I don't see anything constructive arising out of anything past the first months.

[manwesulimo2004]

How are you manwesulimo2004?  haven't seen you around in a bit.

Oh wow. Didn't think that would be noticed.

I've taken a break from AP attempts. I had been trying for almost a year and it got frustrating because I didn't seem to making any progress. I'm probably just not ready for it at this point. I've realised that "spiritual development" (or whatever you want to call it) in a more general sense is more important than flying through outer space in my sleep so I'm trying to realign my priorities, seeing Astral Projection more as a symptom of (and tool for) spiritual progress rather than the actual goal.

I started reading Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and Its Attainment by Rudolf Steiner (Stookie recommended it to me) and it left a great impression on me. It seems to be one of the most profound books I've ever read (haven't read many though ^^) and it really motivated me to work on myself. And that appeared to have a really good effect on my life for about three months. Unfortunately the progress I thought I had made seems to have diminished over the last two months or so. I always seem to lapse between ups and downs. I'm not a very disciplined person so it's difficult to get any form of consistency into my life. At the moment I'm in a phase where I hardly meditate (or take time for myself) and end up consuming all the time. Usually I'm reading or watching films or listening to music, etc., etc..

So actually, despite (or because of?) the fact I've tried to make spiritual progress more of a priority in my life I've become caught up in physical consumerism instead.

Sorry for going off-topic.

[SomeRandom]

Oh wow. Didn't think that would be noticed.

I've taken a break from AP attempts. I had been trying for almost a year and it got frustrating because I didn't seem to making any progress. I'm probably just not ready for it at this point. I've realised that "spiritual development" (or whatever you want to call it) in a more general sense is more important than flying through outer space in my sleep so I'm trying to realign my priorities, seeing Astral Projection more as a symptom of (and tool for) spiritual progress rather than the actual goal.

I started reading Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and Its Attainment by Rudolf Steiner (Stookie recommended it to me) and it left a great impression on me. It seems to be one of the most profound books I've ever read (haven't read many though ^^) and it really motivated me to work on myself. And that appeared to have a really good effect on my life for about three months. Unfortunately the progress I thought I had made seems to have diminished over the last two months or so. I always seem to lapse between ups and downs. I'm not a very disciplined person so it's difficult to get any form of consistency into my life. At the moment I'm in a phase where I hardly meditate (or take time for myself) and end up consuming all the time. Usually I'm reading or watching films or listening to music, etc., etc..

So actually, despite (or because of?) the fact I've tried to make spiritual progress more of a priority in my life I've become caught up in physical consumerism instead.

Sorry for going off-topic.

Maybe you could help brainwash yourself to be more motivated, like what ads do. Stick up some printed paper or drawn or whatever signs that have words on them that could help you remember what you want to be doing. You dont even have to pay attention to them if its at least hanging up somewhere in your house you're frequently at

[personalreality]

Oh wow. Didn't think that would be noticed.

I've taken a break from AP attempts. I had been trying for almost a year and it got frustrating because I didn't seem to making any progress. I'm probably just not ready for it at this point. I've realised that "spiritual development" (or whatever you want to call it) in a more general sense is more important than flying through outer space in my sleep so I'm trying to realign my priorities, seeing Astral Projection more as a symptom of (and tool for) spiritual progress rather than the actual goal.

I started reading Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and Its Attainment by Rudolf Steiner (Stookie recommended it to me) and it left a great impression on me. It seems to be one of the most profound books I've ever read (haven't read many though ^^) and it really motivated me to work on myself. And that appeared to have a really good effect on my life for about three months. Unfortunately the progress I thought I had made seems to have diminished over the last two months or so. I always seem to lapse between ups and downs. I'm not a very disciplined person so it's difficult to get any form of consistency into my life. At the moment I'm in a phase where I hardly meditate (or take time for myself) and end up consuming all the time. Usually I'm reading or watching films or listening to music, etc., etc..

So actually, despite (or because of?) the fact I've tried to make spiritual progress more of a priority in my life I've become caught up in physical consumerism instead.

Sorry for going off-topic.

Me and Fourthdimension were just discussing the same topic on the Facebook Astral Pulse page.  Sometimes you have to take a break from AP and do something else.  I shared the story of my first successful exit.  I practiced every day for 6 months with no success.  I took a couple months off and as soon as I tried again I had my first exit.  And you're right, there is more to spiritual growth than just AP practice.  It is a tool, not a goal.  I commend your decision, many people have trouble letting go and moving on to something new, even when that is what they need more than anything else.

Stookie said the same thing about steiner's book.  I got it for free on my kindle but I haven't read it yet.  I will eventually.

It's good to see you. 

[manwesulimo2004]

Maybe you could help brainwash yourself to be more motivated, like what ads do. Stick up some printed paper or drawn or whatever signs that have words on them that could help you remember what you want to be doing. You dont even have to pay attention to them if its at least hanging up somewhere in your house you're frequently at

That's a good idea. Thinking about it: Things were easier while I listened to so much Tool. ^^

[Summerlander]

Tool rocks! And A Perfect Circle!

[personalreality]

Mer De Nom rocks, all the other APC albums were bad.

Mer De Nom is still one of the only albums that I love every song on it.  That's rare for me, but every song on that album was great.  I don't even listen to rock music anymore and that is still one of my all time favorites.

[Summerlander]

I have to say that Mer De Nom is my fave too. What's your fave Tool album?

[personalreality]

Don't like Tool.

Well, I shouldn't say that.  I don't dislike Tool, but I never really got into them either.  They were too "hard rock" for my sensibilities.  I can enjoy a tool song nowadays though, because I recognize the musical genius involved in that band.

[SomeRandom]

Emotive is my favorite APC cd, Lateralus and Aenima is my favorite tool cd

[Summerlander]

Emotive is my favorite APC cd, Lateralus and Aenima is my favorite tool cd

Lateralus and Aenima are my fave too!

Don't like Tool.

Well, I shouldn't say that.  I don't dislike Tool, but I never really got into them either.  They were too "hard rock" for my sensibilities.  I can enjoy a tool song nowadays though, because I recognize the musical genius involved in that band.

You seem like a bit of a pussy when it comes to music.